Is there any way to get the skirt portion of the MFD to work in the cloth room? (so as not to lose the morphs for the torso, et al.) I have tried to simply clothify the 'hip' portion of the dress, but the simulation doesn't run. Am I missing something or will this just not work??? If it won't work then the big question is -- Is there any way to turn it into dynamorphic [grin] clothing? Surely this can be done somehow. Export then import then Morph Manager or something like that? I'm willing to do the experimenting if someone can give me a good idea of what to try.

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JamieReid, are you animating or single-image-ing? And...can you give us an idea of why you'd want to do this? ::::: Opera :::::

No reason why it shouldn't work, according to experiments over at PoserPros. You don't even need to alter the CR2 or geometry (though there's little point in keeping the body handles). Are you using P5, or P6?

http://poserpros.daz3d.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=47259

Quote - can you give us an idea of why you'd want to do this

For me I'd like to know because Dynamic cloth has a more natural look; like it belongs with the pose. The clothes are drapier and falls naturally around the body instead of looking stiff. I'd love to see the MFD redon with a dynamic skirt.

I have to agree with Acadia...although conforming clothes do reduce the amount of preparation time on an image, I'd rather go the extra mile and use dynamic if I had the choice for the reason she stated...they do look more natural...

oh, actually, i was asking the question the other way around! In other words, why would you want to keep the top conforming? The link over LittleDragon provided was fascinating! I see the partial answer now, "because sometimes with all-dynamic, the dress falls off". But I have not encountered that yet. ::::: Opera :::::

Quote - why would you want to keep the top conforming?

So that it has that clingy form fitted look :)

I have begun experimenting with hybrib clothes, and I can say it is great to be able to make a top that fits and poses well onthe upper body with flowing dynamics below. Also, it should make it easier to have deatils like buttons and the like on the conforming portions fo the clothing. That looks really odd with the body handles showing LD }-) Shogakusha

I've found in my experiments that you can get more detail from conforming clothing in the way of seams, butons, ties etc that droop and distort in dynamic clothing. So making thos parts that need to maintain a certain shape conforming but making the areas that need to be flowing into dynamic clothing is a definate plus. I've worked with simply making existing "conforming" groups dynamic and have found that the draw back is that the groups are still "linked" to the primary figure (figure 1) and tend to be "pulled" when the primary is posed, causing distortion in the dynamic. This can be used if the pose isn't too drastic. The best results are to create a seperate dynamic group which requires some editing of the .cr2 file. A good example of this is the fredie hybrid dress by English Bob which has a dynamic Skirt group "below" the hip group. Grab that freebie an look at the .cr2 file as a good example of how this is done. Here's an early pic of a dress I've been working on that uses this method.

This picture shows an overcoat where I just made the existing hp group dynamic. YOu can see the distortion created as the hip group tried to conform as well as go dynamic. mnike

Still relatively new to this, so i'm just doing stills right now, and i'm am still working with poser 5. (Gotta get P6 , if just for the point lights :) ) This is weird category: after rebooting my computer, the cloth simulation runs, but the "collide against" options now only includes 'figure 1' and 'body'. So when the sim runs the skirt drapes right through the legs. What am i missing? BTW, thanks Little_Dragon for the link to the thread, don't know how i missed that one.

For me the best solution is what Serge Marck does with his dresses:

Use the cloth room to make realistic dynamic morphs for a fully conforming cloth.

stahlratte

Why? As I mentioned in the PoserPros thread, main reason for me is I couldn't get this peignoir to work as either full conforming or full dynamic. I don't like the idea of moving long skirts around with morphs, even if you have a zillion of them users can still only do poses that fit the morphs, more-or-less. It is a real clunker to set up and use them that way too. Full dynamic, on the other hand, would be great, except Poser wouldn't run this one through the cloth room. I suspect there are too many near-inward facing polygongs on the folds of the sleeves. Poser also seems to have a problem with any long-sleeved garment, when the arms fold down (over the clothing), it seems to mostly stop the simulation at that point. I'd also say the part dynamic / part conforming has other advantages too, it seems to preserve the folds in this garment better (the fold details are all in the mesh, it doesn't have a transparency or bump map yet). Might be because they drape from the conforming part.

Quote - Use the cloth room to make realistic dynamic morphs for a fully conforming cloth.

How do you do that?

Quote - No reason why it shouldn't work, according to experiments over at PoserPros. You don't even need to alter the CR2 or geometry (though there's little point in keeping the body handles)

Would you mind explaining how you did that with the MFD?

Jim, that's gorgeous!

Thanks!- I've been working on this one for a long time (there is a matching negligee, too), but I sorta put it aside until I could figure out a better way to work the skirts. I first read about the dynamic/conforming setup idea here, that seemed like a perfect solution. There are some details at PoserPros on how I set 'em up.

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Acadia THe easiest way (Altho there may be some distortion) is select the existing groups (or groups but they must be selected one at a time) as the part to be "clothified" in the Cloth Room. You can select the groups one at a time, repeating the process until all of the groups you want selected are clothified befoer proceeding to the "Collide Against" pop up. As I said tho, the more the groups you clotify are changed by the pose, the more distortion your likely to get. mike

Quote - THe easiest way (Altho there may be some distortion) is select the existing groups (or groups but they must be selected one at a time) as the part to be "clothified" in the Cloth Room. You can select the groups one at a time, repeating the process until all of the groups you want selected are clothified befoer proceeding to the "Collide Against" pop up.

hehe, you lost me, LOL Do I select the groups in the Cloth Room? How do I do that? Do I start a new simulation and then select each group? Do I select one group, clothify, then select another group and clothify that one etc? Or do I select the whole lot of groups and clothify it all together? As you can tell I am pretty green when it comes to the cloth room. All I know how to do is what I learned to do from Poser Fashion's tutorial on how to work with dynamic clothing. I think I use 4 buttons in the cloth room, LOL

For example (since I don't have the MFD, I'll guess) the dress is set up so that it has a single "hip" group for the skirt.

In the Pose Room: Load Figure 1 (Victoria, Judy, Jessi etc.) adn Load an confomr your clothing. Advance your Frame approx. 5-10 frames and set the pose on Figure 1. Return the Frame setting to 1

Move to the Cloth Room:
Click on New Simulation to start the ball rolling. I usually check Cloth Self-collision.

Click on Clothify; Click on Object to Clothify = Body Parts and select "hip"; click the Clothify button.

At this point if you have another body group you want to make dynamic as well, re-click on Clothify; Click Object to Clothify - Baody Parts and select the part you want; click the Clothify button.

repeat as needed, until you've selected all the groups.

If you want you can modify the Dynamic groups for Constrained, Choreographed etc. but you don't have to.

Optionally you can adjust the Dynamic Controls for Fold Resistance, Stretch Resistance etc.

Now Calculate the simulation.

That's the basics of the process.

Remember if your Pose affects (in this example) the hip group of figure 1 (Victoria, Judy, Jessie etc.) and that is the group you clothified (in your clothing) there may (probably) be some distortion.

mike

Message edited on: 12/27/2005 19:20

Message edited on: 12/27/2005 19:21

I think I understood that!!! hehe Thank you. I'll try that tomorrow after I've hopefully had some sleep :) I can hardly wait to see my favourite dress actually look like it belongs to a pose :)

Incidently, if the part you want to clothify (say the hip of the dress) is selected before you enter the Cloth Room it will automatically become the default "clothify" item. The Cloth Room scared me a little at first too, one thing to remember is all those adjustments are for fine tuning, most all the time it will run fairly well with the defalt settings. All you really must set are the clothify item and the collide items. The negligee was set to collide against the ground, in addittion to IV, here.

Quote - All you really must set are the clothify item and the collide items

That's basically what I learned at Poser Fashion. Only now I want to learn how to do this grouping stuff so that I can use some of my conforming dresses, particularly the MFD, in the cloth room and make it a "hybrid" item so that the skirt actually looks more natural with the pose.

~bookmark~

i'd also like to know more about grouping. for instance, the aiko arabian nights pants already have conforming parts for the legs. they also have materials for just the puffy part i want to be dynamic. should i just rename the relevant leg parts? what seems logical is to remove the puffy/dynamic parts from the body part groupings and make an new dynamic part that includes all of the puffy/dynamic material. how might this be possible? i haven't been able to create groups that span any of the premade groups....

Quote - Advance your Frame approx. 5-10 frames and set the pose on Figure 1. Return the Frame setting to 1

I just noticed that. When I work with Dynamic Clothing, I do a 60 frame simulation and set my pose at frame 30. I learned that at Poser Fashion and have continued to do that because I find the extra frames give the clothing a nicer drapier look to them. Is there a specific purpose that you suggested only 5 to 10 frames? Would 10 be my final pose?

Ok, I tried this. Only it didn't work, LOL

I followed Trav's instructions above, only I used 60 frames and set my pose at frame 30. Here is what I did:

1. Load figure
2. Add MFD
3. Used Wardrobe Wizard to fit the dress
4. Set 60 frames
5. Did pose at frame 30
6. Went back to frame 1
7. Enter cloth room
8. New Simulation - 60 frames
9. Self Collision
10. Clothify - Dress Hip
11. Clothify - Right Buttock
12. Clothify - Right Thigh
13. Clothify - Right Shin
14. Clothify - Right Foot *because is floor length dress)
15. Clothify - Right Toe
16. Clothify - Repeated steps 10 to 15 for left side.
17. Collide against - Figure 1 (Vicky)
18. Unchecked "start draping at zero frame)
19. Checked "ignore head collision"
20. Checked "ignore hand collision"
    21 Unchecked "ignore foot collision" (because I clothified the foot part of the dress)
21. Calculate Simulation.

Immediately upon starting to calculate the simulation, the dress at the hip began to be pulled downward. As the frames were calculated the skirt got lower and lower. I stopped it at frame 13.

Here is the result. The skirt is way, way down off the window.

Can someone tell me what I did wrong?

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 04:52

Ok, here is another try. This is what I did this time: 1. Load figure 2. Add MFD 3. Used Wardrobe Wizard to fit the dress 4. Set 60 frames 5. Did pose at frame 30 6. Went back to frame 1 7. Enter cloth room 8. New Simulation - 60 frames 9. Self Collision 10. Clothify - Dress Hip 11. Collide against - Figure 1 (Vicky) 12. Unchecked "start draping at zero frame) 13. Checked "ignore head collision" 14. Checked "ignore hand collision" 15. Checked "ignore foot collision" 16. Calculate Simulation. I stopped this one at frame 6. As you can see the hip of the dress is being pulled downwards.

I had this happen to me once. CLOTH DENSITY cannot be too high, it means it weighs alot and pulls down. STRETCH RESISTENCE try increasing this. ::::: Opera :::::

Ok, thanks :) I'll try that. I'm not familiar with all those other dials and buttons, so I'm learning little by little. Maybe one day I'll actually be able to trouble shoot for myself, hehe Thanks :)

Colliding with the Ground plane would be a good idea.
Make sure that the clothified part is completely above it before the simulation begins.

This is what I did this time:

1. Load figure
2. Add MFD
3. Used Wardrobe Wizard to fit the dress
4. Set 60 frames
5. Did pose at frame 30
6. Went back to frame 1
7. Enter cloth room
8. New Simulation - 60 frames
9. Self Collision
10. Clothify - Dress Hip
11. Collide against - Figure 1 (Vicky) and Ground
12. Unchecked "start draping at zero frame)
13. Checked "ignore head collision"
14. Checked "ignore hand collision"
15. Checked "ignore foot collision"
16. Turned Stretch Resistance to ZERO
17. Calculate Simulation.

One thing I notice that I noticed before, but wasn't sure about until now...

I have the MFD and "Hip" selected before entering the cloth room. I click "new simulation". However, when I go to "clothify" the hip part of the dress, I get a message saying that the part is already included in the simulation and that I can't clothify it again. There is no "Collide against" button available for me to use though. So I cancel and try again. The second time I cancel I get the "collide against" button which allows me to set the collision.

Maybe the hip of the dress isn't being clothified at all. However, something is being clothified... but if it's not the hip, I don't know what it is.

I tried setting up a new simulation having Vicky and "Body" selected, yet when I went to try and clothify the hip of the dress, I got that same window telling me that the part was included in the simulation. Could this be a by product of having used Wardrobe Wizard to fit the dress?

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 08:31

Acadia, If you are ONLY selecting Collide against Figure 1 change this. Unchec Universe, which will claer all of the check boxes. Check the following: Ground (sorry forgot that earlier) abdomen hip l&r Buttocks l&r thigh l&r shin l&r foot l&r toe Also, since you are using WW to fit the dress, besure that the hip are (the part you are clothifying) does not intersect the figure 1 anywhere. It's best to bee too big if anything. If there is an poke thru on a collision group AT ALL it nullifies the collsion detection. "I have the MFD and "Hip" selected before entering the cloth room. I click "new simulation". However, when I go to "clothify" the hip part of the dress, I get a message saying that the part is already included in the simulation and that I can't clothify it again. There is no "Collide against" button available for me to use though. So I cancel and try again. The second time I cancel I get the "collide against" button which allows me to set the collision." In this case you would need to DELETE the Simulation and start from scratch. I'll be watching the tread if you continue to have problems. THis has been a fairly straight forward process, but I may be missing some detail from habit. I "run" something thru to see if I pick any ting up. mike

Here is how I'm setting up the cloth simulations, bear in mind I'm making this up as I go along, it is all new to me: I mostly use 16 frames in the simulation The starting pose for the figure is the same as the end frame pose, with some* exceptions. I use special morphs plus the standard rotate and scale dials to get the cloth outside the figure in the starting frame. My stuff is set up so the "clothify" part is a physical part below the last conforming part, so it has all the standard dials. I don't think this plan will work very well when the clothify part is also a conforming part. In the final frame I zero all the morph and rotate dials and put all the scale back to 100% for the clothify part. This is important. *the exceptions would be when part of the figure aids in the simulation, like the leg moving into a slit in the skirt, or if some of the limbs must be moved to get the cloth outside the figure in the first frame. I'm still feeling my way on this, here is the negligee again on another simulation I just ran, I had it collide with th eground, too. Incidently, it is also important that your figure stays the same height during the simulation, if it moves up or down you will get a bad crease between the dynamic and conforming parts. I'm going to set up poses (as I have been doing for my other dynamic clothing) to make it easier for the users to get the hang of all this. In this case I may have one multi-fram pose for the figure, another for the clothing. Looks good in red satin, doesn't it? ;-)

Part of the problem is that the hip part of dress goes through the Ground with V3 in the default zeroed pose. At the very least you'll need to drop the human figure to the floor or raise it up enough to make sure the clothified part is above the Ground at the start of the simulation (length morphs would also work).

My therory as to why the dress stretches, its because the dress hip does not have a choreographed group.

In Poser 5 cloth room, under the 'cloth groups' settings for [hip] click the 'edit choreographed group' button, you should see a ring of red dots around the top edge of the dress hip.

If not, then check the 'hide other objects button' on the 'group editor' to get a better view and zoom, pan, and rotate camera as neccissary (may want to switch to posing camera, so as not to lose the main's posistion). then select each of, and only, the top vetices of the dress hip. If you get any that you shouldn't, select the minus button on the 'group editor' and then select the vertices that don't belong. Click the plus button to start adding again. make sure to go all the way around.

When done, close the 'group editor', return camera, and run the simulation. If this doesn't work... well at least it's a good exercise for editing dynamic cloth groups. :)

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 12:03

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 12:04

I've found with out exception in my trials that if you clothify a group that is "welded" to another in the CR2 file the vertices at the joint are automatically placed in the choreographed group, which is usually more than enough. Mind you I still believe it has to do with selecting the individual groups to clooide against. Also I think 60 frames is WAY more than necessary for this simulation. Some where between 15 and 30 should be more than enough

mike

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 13:08

It has been my experience as well that "welded" verts are atuomatically turn into choreographed, but Wardrobe Wizard might have affected this. As a trial I took the MFD and moved the choreographed group to default, and the sim results looked the same as the posted pic. Oh well, it was worth a shot. Observation, theory and experimentation are a tried a true method of learning. :)

Here is an example of a V2 skirt I made a while ago. THe skirt is simply a HIP group clothified using the settings I mentioned earlier simulation rean 30 frames. Pose was set on fram3 6. The only thing I did different than Acadia was to set collision for each group and I lowered the Fold Resistance to30 and the Stretch Resistance to 10 mike

Here I've made just an outline. It's hard to see but may give some indication of the figure's movement.

Jim, Missed your 2nd post. Are you saying that moving the automatically generated choreograph group vets to default caused the dress to stretch like Acadia's pictures? Just trying for clarification. mike

This is an interesting thread to follow and opens up a lot options that I'd never thought of before.

I just had a play with "The Dress" and that has real possibilities....

Now if I can add the sleeves and get them grouped... The whole idea certainly warrants more experimentation.

Yea, I don't own WW so this is a shot in the dark, but it looked the same. BTW, Trav, what version of Poser are you using, I'm on 5 and I can't get the figures legs to come up as an option on the "collides against" tree. Is this a version issue?

Message edited on: 12/28/2005 14:31

I've been working on sleeves as well and have a suggestion. Due to the fact that most poses really move the arm joints the sleeves seem to distor a lot if you try to clothify the existing groups. I use confomring groups up to the point where I want to sleeves to flow that add seperate dynamic groups for there out. It involves a bit of CR2 editing but the effect is much better. mike

I'm on Poser 6 so that may be a problem, I never did much with dynamics in P5... so it could be an issue with the differences in the versions! I tried the same experiment in P6, moving the choreographed group into the default dynamic groups AND leaving the floor unchecked for collision. The clothing dropped thru the floor but did not stretch thru the figure as your render shows. So you may have found something there! great! mike

Quote - I'm on 5 and I can't get the figures legs to come up as an option on the "collides against" tree. Is this a version issue?

Yeah, now that you mention it, all I get in the collide against window for the figure is "Figure 1 - Body".

At least I know it's nothing with WW seeing that you get the same result as me doing it without having run it through WW. Message edited on: 12/28/2005 16:01

I ran the MFD in Poser 6 before I did "The Dress" didn't have any issues - worked fine for me. However just tried same thing in P5 and no go - didn't drop through floor but had poke through everywhere???? Looks like something different between P5 & P6.

So Poser 5 cloth room doesn't have the ability to do this then? :(

Well, i was waiting for three reasons to upgrade to 6 and after point lights and ambient occlusion the cloth room now make three. :) "Hold on to your lugnuts -- it's time for an overhaul!" -The Mask