Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed that a lot of people use the poseable hair. Yes, it comes in a lot of great styles, colors, etc...but come on. Is throwing a character into poser, adding some hair, and a few props really artwork???

I miss the good old days when a lot of people actually spent time on painting hair and clothes. The level of detail put into the work can be truly amazing. In my mind, that is dedication, hard work, and truly deserving of being called art.

I find myself skipping over a lot of pictures lately as I browse the gallery because to me, they all seem the same. Same characters, same hair styles, same clothes. They are starting to lack in originality. Is any one else feeling the same way? To me, it is no longer fun to look at a bunch of pictures of what looks like plastic people with plastic hair thrown in a plastic looking scene.

If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere. This is just my opinion, and I really am not out to attack anyone or make them feel that their work is not worthy. I am just wondering where all of the hard working, time spending painters have disappeared to. And which of you has the potential to be one, but are too afraid to give it a try?? Come on, put down the plastic hair and clothes, and grab that mouse/pen...see what magic you can create!! And if you don't know where to start...browse through the tutorials. There are a lot of wonderful references in there.

If you are wondering of the people I am talking about that I admire for their hard work, here are a few wonderful people that I am proud to call artists. Check out their work: Bez, Prog, pjaj, Vali, Rhiannon, Magician, Antje, Crasher, Sand tyger, Cimerone just to name a few. IMO, these people truly demonstrate the meaning of art.

The other thing that bothers me is that there are some people (yes, me included) that do put hours and hours into their pictures, and get only a few comments. Yet those that slap together a pretty plastic scene manage to get tons of comments. Is "perfect hair" and plastic looking clothes the "in" thing these days? Am I wasting my time trying hard to create beautiful pictures for people to admire? Should I invest in all the fake looking things so that I can get a few more viewers and a few more comments??

NO!! I will continue to work hard, and hope that maybe someday I will be as deserving of all the admirers and comment makers as those people I mentioned above.

Until then, I will continue to wonder....

"Would you like plastic or paper?"

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=SamTherapy

Sam... Yes and no. But you proved my point. Poser hair everywhere...props I have seen a thousand times. Yes, a few of the scenes are quite nice, but none of it looks real to me. I admire your comics more because those look like they took more time to create. There is nothing wrong with doing postwork on a render. In fact, I encourage it. Get rid of those lines and shadows that make the character look fake. Ditch the plastic hair and be creative. Give the character a look that screams that it came from YOU. Kind of like your comics. They are yours, created by your hand, and have YOUR style. That is what true art really is. A reflection of you. I'm not saying your gallery is bad, I'm just saying that to me, it resembles the work of a lot of other people. Good work, but not spectactular to my eyes at all.

If I can find a Poser hair prop that's close to what I have in mind, I'll use it and then paint over it in postwork, so it looks more like actual, you know, hair. ;-) I'm not going to adress the "is it art" thing. The horse has been dead for years and yet people keep flogging the poor thing... bonni

Bonni, Using poser hair to paint over is a great way to start. But if you can paint over it, why not try to paint it freehand? I bet you can do it if you really tried. You have enough artistic ability in you to create a poser picture to start with. Why not challenge yourself and take your art one step more? Keep up the good work. And keep creating!!

You're a fan of loads of post work, others aren't. You should respect that. Just because some choose to post work 90% of their images in a graphic program doesn't mean that their art is better than anyone else's. It's just a different style and technique. You really shouldn't slam people for being creative. It's not very nice.

I wasn't slamming anyone....I even said that in the very first post. "If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere." All I'm pointing out is that those that do take the days and days to create 90% of their picture aren't getting the credit they deserve versus those that go into poser and throw some things into a picture in a half hour. As for respect, I respect anyone who even attempts to create a picture, no matter how little work they put into it. I never said I didn't. Maybe you should learn the meaning of that word before you jump on here and start ripping into me for voicing my opinion.

I have no problems with anyone being impressed, indifferent or plain pissed off with my work but I do take exception to anyone attempting to define art by the length of time it took to create and/or the tools used to create it. One qualification to that before someone picks up on it... I do not believe it's possible - under normal circumstances - to create anything of artistic merit in 10 seconds or thereabouts. There may be exceptions; photography springs to mind, but that's all they are. That said, whether an image takes 5 hours, 5 days or 5 years is not a measure of artistic worth. As a side note, maybe 30% of my gallery is what I would call "art" and, oddly enough, I do not consider the comic panels to be art.

I do sometimes paint it freehand. Sometimes, though, I have a deadline and it's easier to start with the prop in place. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have the talent to do it... bonni

It's sooooo hard to paint but I'm trying now and again, don't always post it though cause it stinks most of the time lol. Antje is definatly one of my favorites. :) When I grow up I want to be like her! ;)

If I knew "how" to paint hair I would. But all the tutorials seem to work on Photoshop and I use Paint Shop Pro ... anyone know a "really good" tutorial for Painting hair in P. Shop Pro?

Attached Link: http://www.kiwisgraphics.com/romanceisintheair.html

Sorry, but I do feel that you are slamming anyone who doesn't postwork 90% of their gallery images. Whether you intended it or not, your initial post comes across as very condescending.

Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed that a lot of people use the poseable hair. Yes, it comes in a lot of great styles, colors, etc...but come on. Is throwing a character into poser, adding some hair, and a few props really artwork???

You start out talking about premade hair vs painted hair. Then you basically say that using premade hair on a figure isn't "art".

I miss the good old days when a lot of people actually spent time on painting hair and clothes. The level of detail put into the work can be truly amazing. In my mind, that is dedication, hard work, and truly deserving of being called art.

You come right out and state that only those who spend time on painting the hair and clothing in their images are dedicated and deserving of having their work called art.

I find myself skipping over a lot of pictures lately as I browse the gallery because to me, they all seem the same. Same characters, same hair styles, same clothes. They are starting to lack in originality. Is any one else feeling the same way? To me, it is no longer fun to look at a bunch of pictures of what looks like plastic people with plastic hair thrown in a plastic looking scene.

So don't look at them. There are lots of images in the gallery here and at other sites that fit your criteria of what "art" is. Look at those and skip the others.

If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere. This is just my opinion, and I really am not out to attack anyone or make them feel that their work is not worthy. I am just wondering where all of the hard working, time spending painters have disappeared to. And which of you has the potential to be one, but are too afraid to give it a try?? Come on, put down the plastic hair and clothes, and grab that mouse/pen...see what magic you can create!! And if you don't know where to start...browse through the tutorials. There are a lot of wonderful references in there.

Maybe people don't want to "start somewhere". Maybe they are happy doing what they are doing the way they are doing it :)

Again, you have a preference for digital painted hair and clothing, and that's your right. Others either don't want to, don't have the time to, don't have the talent to, or don't have the money to invest in a graphic tablet, and we all know how hard it is it to digital paint fine detail with a mouse.

Again, while you may not have meant it, you are coming across, at least to me, as slamming others and telling them that if they don't "advance" into hand painting their props, hair, clothing etc, that they aren't "artists" and their art isn't "worthy". Like I said above, that's not very nice.

here are a few wonderful people that I am proud to call artists. Check out their work: Bez, Prog, pjaj, Vali, Rhiannon, Magician, Antje, Crasher, Sand tyger, Cimerone just to name a few. IMO, these people truly demonstrate the meaning of art.

Again, anyone who doesn't do the same as them, in your eyes, are not artists.

The other thing that bothers me is that there are some people (yes, me included) that do put hours and hours into their pictures, and get only a few comments. Yet those that slap together a pretty plastic scene manage to get tons of comments. Is "perfect hair" and plastic looking clothes the "in" thing these days? Am I wasting my time trying hard to create beautiful pictures for people to admire? Should I invest in all the fake looking things so that I can get a few more viewers and a few more comments??

Do art for yourself and to please you. Why does it matter who or what images gets more comments/views?! I've never understood that.

maybe someday I will be as deserving of all the admirers and comment makers as those people I mentioned above.

There is a thread going about how to generate more views and comments if you aren't happy with what you are getting.

Art is a very subjective thing. What appeals to one person doesn't appeal to someone else.

You can take a toilet seat, paint it black and white stripes and hang it from a cherry tree and call it art. It's not what I would call art, but someone does.

Some years ago where I live some woman got a huge government grant for some kind of art show. What was it? She poured buckets of pig blood on a floor and rolled around in it.

That same artists gathered up carcasses of dead rabbits and strung them on trees claimed it was "a study in putrification". It was truly disgusting and generated loads of controversy. Yet it was considered "art"; she even got more government money in order to do it. Did I like it? No. Did I go see it? No. But I respect her right to express her art in whatever manner she chooses, and it's not my place to tell her how to do that.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 00:49

Wow.. have just been to your gallery Avengia - now "thats" painted hair. Truely talented. Wish I knew how to do that.

I'm sure, if I sat down and tried over several months, that I'd be able to pain hair decently enough to risk posting the image here, however, I've got enough other things to work on other than Poser that the time required for that isn't really available right now. Also, as SamTherapy said, I try to get the best I can out of Poser, without postwork. And if you think that's an easy, half-hour deal then I suggest you try it. I've spent many hours over several days compositing a scene, test rendering, changing something, test rendering, changing something else, test rendering... until I get something I'm happy with. And with the higher quality of both hair and hair textures available now, I honestly don't see too much "plastic" hair. Unlike the hair that shipped with Poser 4... True, people like Prog can create awesome images by painting over a basice render, but IMHO, that stuff should be classified "Mixed Medium" not "Poser" because sometimes the only thing involving Poser was the base character, everything else being postwork. I do admit that painted hair often looks much better than prop hair, but in most images I've seen where clothing was painted, it looked "fake". Either the lines are too soft, or something, but I'd rather have prop clothing because a well made, well textured conforming (or dynamic) outfit in Poser can look very un-plastic.

If you like painting so much, why don't you paint the entire image instead of using Poser? If I want to paint, I'll pull out my oils, brushes and canvas.

Coldrake

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 01:26

Now I remember why I stopped posting here about 3 years ago. Because it turns into a bitch fest. All I wanted to say was that I miss the good old days of poser before all the high tech, fancy-smancy premade shit came out. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said anyone's work wasn't art, and that they were less of an artist, or anything like that. I never degraded anyone's work, or put anyone down. That wasn't my intention, and will NOT be my intention.

To Karen: I clicked your link. It looks great! And more real than Poser hair. Keep it up!

To Kiwi: Thank you. That was really sweet (though, I didn't post here to force people to comment on my work smile). But thank you none-the-less.

To Acadia: You seem like one of those people that is a "post whore" so I'm going to skip over your post and continue to the next, because after the first few lines I formed one quick impression. You like to rip people apart, see what you want to see, and nothing else. Twist my words all you want, and interpret them how you will. That's your right. But I won't be a part of your little game.

To Modus: I did do the all poser thing at one time (except NEVER hair...because that's my personal preference), and I have gotten it down to where I can put together a picture in no time at all. Once you get used to Poser, the camera settings, lighting, shading, clothing, etc, it becomes quite easy. At least to me. Maybe not to others, but not everyone has the art background I have. And maybe you are right...maybe it should be called "Mixed Medium". That's the first piece of good "advice" I have seen on here yet, which is kind of what I was looking for when I created this. A solution. Because a picture that's not done completely in Poser shouldn't be classified as Poser. Because it's not. A majority of the time, the character is the only thing I pull out of Poser. Once in a while I will use back props from DM, but that's because they look realistic, and it's something I can't paint by hand no matter how hard I try. (And I generally do try first.)

To Coldrake: I did my first piece not too long ago completely freehand, without using a Poser character. But you have discovered my biggest downfall. The human body. In my eyes it is too magnificent and beautiful for me to capture it the way it should be. There are thousands of details that I can't seem to grasp right, but I won't give up trying. Some people can draw houses, some people do trees, others can do animals...and others can do humans. I am not quite one of those yet. I'm not perfect, and nor is anyone else (which is why I will NOT "slam" people for not being able to do all of it). But I will ask "why not try?" Why not push yourself to attempt something that maybe you don't think you can do? We all come here posting work to look for help, praise, and admiration. Face it. No one comes and posts here simply to have a storage place for their work. We have hard drives on computers for that, and disks we can save our work to. All I'm suggesting is that people branch out and try something new. Take your art to a new level, and see what happens. You could be surprised. I know I surprised myself the first time I drew an outfit that looked like actual clothes and not paint smeared on a body.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 01:55

((Also, as SamTherapy said, I try to get the best I can out of Poser, without postwork. And if you think that's an easy, half-hour deal then I suggest you try it.)) Amen to that. I've tried using a tablet and absolutely hated it. I found it tedious and frustrating, and it took all the enjoyment out of the creation process. I love working in Poser and try damn hard to get the best possible results out of it that I can. And anyone who tries to tell me that that I'm not dedicated, that using Poser is not hard work, and that my work is not deserving of being called art, all because I don't paint digitally, can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

Quote - All I wanted to say was that I miss the good old days of poser before all the high tech, fancy-smancy premade shit came out.

Then that's all you had to say, all the rest was irrelevant.

Quote - To Acadia: You seem like one of those people that is a "post whore" so I'm going to skip over your post and continue to the next, because after the first few lines I formed one quick impression. You like to rip people apart, see what you want to see, and nothing else. Twist my words all you want, and interpret them how you will. That's your right. But I won't be a part of your little game.

There is no need to get defensive and go into attack mode, make accusations and name call.

I was simply pointing out to you that your initial post comes across condecending and somewhat arrogant in that you insist that "art" has to be done one way in order for it to be considered "art".

That's an insult to people. Sorry you don't see that.

As for how much I post, that's really my business. However, I'd like to see how much posting you do if you were off work sick for nearly 2 years and with the exception of doctors and a once a month essential shopping, spend the rest of your time indoors. I have lots of time to kill, so I do it here. Again, sorry if you seem to have an issue with that. But that's your problem to work out, not mine. Message edited on: 03/25/2006 02:26

hey i just read through the post and i think you are all right, i personally use poser to generate better conversion skills and to train myself in moving rigs within mesh but think obout it, what is art trully good for? why do we all do it? art stirrs your soul no matter what ppl say wheather its misunderstood or neither benificery to them or anyone else. art is here because ppl have passion to say and create what ever they please, if we dont look at painting art but other forms once gullivers travels was sattire now its read to ppls childeren, michelangelo painted the sisteen chapel 3 times (i think) now if that doesnt make a example then what does. all im trying to say is that by arguing and fighting you are all proving yourselfs as artists not just through your work but through your soul and passion for the subject. cant we all just get along and at least agree on one thing.... we care enough to fight for our work IRRIGARDLESS of what medium. ps happy rendering = P

Actually, I had been off work for a long time....3.5 years to be exact. But that's neither here nor there. Sorry you are sick. But you are starting to take all of this way too personal. I don't care how much you post, it's how you post. You started a personal attack on me. I started an attack on POSER and it's ability to keep people from using 100% of their artistic ability by providing everything possible to keep a lot of people (NOT ALL) from using their full imaginations and abilities.

Your sick, I'm sorry. May God bless you, and protect you. But lets stay on topic, please!

So, back to my original post. Drawing on Modus's idea...should Renderosity create a new genre called "mixed medium"? That way poser art starts poser art, and those of us that use more than Poser can be recognized in our own way for our efforts? I like what you are thinking as far as that goes Modus.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 02:30

Quote - cant we all just get along

That's my motto :)

Quote - should Renderosity create a new genre called "mixed medium"?

There already is one.

I see that now, and thank you for pointing it out. Yet, as I look through it, I still don't see much of the type of art I have been describing. Maybe there should be a section dedicated to Poser and Postwork. Poser stays all poser, and and then have another section for Postworked Poser, or something. I don't know. Just trying to think of ways to describe what I do (as well as many others).

I really don't see why things have to be compartmentalized. Art is art and should be appreciated for what it is, regardless of the technique, medium or style.

Yes, why not draw pictures instead of using poser? You could go to the max forum and ask them why they don`t make their models out of clay or wood instead of using max.

If the only way to create art is through painting in postwork, instead of all that 'plastic crap', then does that completely count out all the wonderful work that Pixar, PDI, Blue Sky and so on are doing in their animations? Or do they not count? not an attack, just a thought that crossed my mind as I read... jonthecelt

hey all.. I don't normally post in the forums here but stumpled across this one.. I just have to say. I don't think it is all about the poser hair.. yeah it would be great if I could paint it on myself and I am learning.. I go through all of galleries all the time not just the poser ones, cuz, I think the alot of the poser images get to be about the same thing.. same props, same hair and the same look.. I am by no means knocking any artist here.. It is all art in my eyes whether u paint this or that on.. It should be about the artist and the piece of work whether the hair or cloths are painted.. But that is not the point here.. There are so many great artists and pictures in these galleries. I would love to be able to do some of things and turn what I am thinking or what I want into a piece like that.. the real question should be how come the pics that seem to get the most hits is the naked chicks w/ big boobs that don't even come close to looking real?? Just my 2 cents worth.. Render at will.. www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=Rockdog

Here's the rub Avengia,
I don't consider myself an artist to begin with, I have a "hobby" of making images that come from my mind. I don't have the artistic skill to be able to create them by drawing them, so I found this bit of software called Poser. It enables me to bring forth my visions and put them down in a way that I can actually see and that to me is worth loads!
I also have a life in the "real world" where I have to work to pay my bills, feed my family etc. so "time" is something I have very little of to "try" new things like painting when I can get the effect "I" want from the Poser hair, props etc.
I don't respect your view because it is too generalized and not what everyone wants or sees as art. If that's how you see art, great; but leave others who have differing views and needs to do it their way.
Long live the revolution!!!!!!!

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 03:11

Quoted from Rockdog: "...is the naked chicks w/ big boobs" I think you just answered your own question... jonthecelt

Thought this forum was about 3d ? Modelling , texturing, lighting , rendering ?

I'm one of those who usually paint hair - IF I even use hair in the image.. But, to imply that all painted hair looks better than the hair props is ..well.. not true.. there's alot of crappy painted hair out there.. I say whichever works for the image is the best wy to go.. also very much depends on the style of your image.. if the rest of it is heavily postworked then maybe painted hair would look better.. If the image is basically a straight render - then what will probably look best is a hair prop.. these images (if done well) are the ones I'm the most impressed with.. cause I can't produce that kind of result myself and to comment about some of the artists you mentioned as being "real artists".. well to be honest.. quite a few of those galleries are just different versions of the same stuff.. I don't really call that being creative... so to sum my standpoint up: It's all a matter of taste.. most ppl have it - just not the same

kitty5

I have seen some very well done Trans mapped hair. I even have a couple that turned out great. I most likely spent more time rendering those couple of hairs in a mutitude of layers to get the effect, than you spend painting. So does that make my hair better than yours? No. I'm not a trained artist, I am a musician for over 38 years. It's a good thing we aren't judged by what tools we use to get an ideal out. I use a maple neck and anyone else using a rosewood neck are not applying themselves to be better musicians. Even if my other 3 axes are rosewood. LOL. (rolls eyes) You seem to be good at painting. What about all of us that are good at creating morphs or modeling the clothes and props and creating the lights that we use in Poser. The ideals, stories and feelings that are put into that render. That to me is what an artist is. Now, I for one would not have enough time to animate painted hair. 15 to 24 fps. Wooh, not in my lifetime. I was in the gallery for a bit for the first time scence before XMas. I do agree that there is a bit of repetition and lack of luster in many renders. I also think it has to do with so many new learners of poser in the last while. So that's not a bad thing. Post work is a proccess that comes later. If you want more views and comments. Comment on every image, every day, you will get more. Having a snobish Ideal on art won't.

Avengia, I do not agree with you. If you like hair painting, nothing wrong with that. In fact, you're one of the better hair painters I've seen in the galleries. But like pakled, SamTherapy, and many others, I want to get as much out of Poser as is possible. In my opinion, an image that is 5% poser and 95% painting is no longer a poser image, it's a 2D image. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the art, by the way. Using transmapped hair, twiddling the morph dials, adding magnets where morphs just won't do the job, playing with the shader nodes to get as much out of the textures as possible, tweaking render settings until it looks good - that IS an effort. Just like painting good hair is an effort. Two different ways to achieve results. The artistic value of either way does not depend on its nature, it depends on the effort and talent of the artist using the method. But I have to agree that the hair in quite a few images looks rather "instant". Doesn't only occur with transmapped hair, there are also many images in which I recognize the "instant hair" brushes - a simple outline plus a fill pattern is just as effortless as slapping on a default Poser hair figure/prop. Getting dynamic hair to look the way you want is also quite an effort. But if an artist applies him/herself and doesn't give up, he/she can get stunning and unique results. Same as with hair painting. The same goes for clothing. Just slapping on some conformers and using the supplied textures is the easy way out. Adjusting everything with morphs and magnets is always worth the effort. Playing with the shader nodes will enhance the default textures. Using well-made dynamic cloth and tweaking the animation, experimenting with wind forces, plus the shader node tricks I already mentioned will give the artist unique looking cloth. Again, you can reach a similar effect by painting the cloth. Again, an artist who spends the effort to paint cloth well will be able to create unique results. And again, there are many images in which the cloth is nothing more than an outline filled with a pattern. So again, the quality of the artwork doesn't have anything to do with the tools or methods used. The only thing that matters is effort and talent of the artist.

I use poser hair etc. simply because I can't paint/draw! :0

"All I'm pointing out is that those that do take the days and days to create 90% of their picture aren't getting the credit they deserve versus those that go into poser and throw some things into a picture in a half hour." Huh? Since when? I look at the hot 20, and it's constantly the same postwork fanatics voting in the same artists time and time again. More than half of the images that usually appear there are postworked to death. I think it's just the opposite of what you say. Meanwhile, you have folks who work in other apps on this site, like Maya, Lightwave, 3dsmax, etc., that rarely get ANY comments, views, or votes compared to Poser submissions, and their work is usually ALL done from scratch, with little or no postwork, modeled from the ground up! By your judgement, THOSE folks should really be considered the true artists, because they do it all from scratch, while Poser users who paint over the render actually started with pre-made stuff to begin with. Where does this mode of thinking end?

first off I am not an artist secondly I am not "starting off" lol been here a while. I have no artistic ability and i do have a benign essential tremor in my hands especially which makes for really bad shaking. Any artistic talent I may have I pour into my morphs - I love and enjoy morphing and am now creating my own textures for Kozaburo's wonderful and free hair and am learning to make poses for them aswell to make them truely mine :o) The closest I will ever come to painting is using the premade psd files like Lully's (they look wonderful and I can personalize them) So it looks like I will continue making my plastic pics and pretending they look like paper and remain the happy little vegimite i am now Chris the happy renderer :o)

I have to agree with that everyone has their own unique style, i've tried painting hair and i suck at it, i do envy people who are right at home with a tablet - i hate it - i tried working with it..... I don't skip images if they have "poser" hair, that is what sells here is it not? merchants who have thought of those artists (yes artists) who cannot paint here and dedicate time to create HAIR. If i'm going to be classified as a plastic peep then so be it - i dont post my images for the comments but because i just love doing images and doing what my inspiration dictates. You have a great gallery - and your one of those people that do have some artistic flair.................. i paint over hair most times so it looks more natural. Im learning but its not on my priority list................ Sharyn the other happy renderer.

When is a Poser image not a Poser image? When it's been postworked to death. The name of the Gallery section concerned is "Poser" not "Photoshop" or "Painter" or "Paintshop Pro" etc. so it's for Poser images first and foremost. I'm not disputing the artistic skills of the accomplished postworkers. If I could paint hair I'm sure I would, and some of the artists you've mentioned are favourites of mine, but the argument itself is baseless. If I create an image in Poser of, let's say, a naked V3 (surprise surprise ~lol~) and then paint on the hair...then paint a beautiful dress, and then of course add the shadows created by the hair and dress it becomes something other than a Poser image to my mind. In fact, what I've done is used Poser for precisely the purpose it was originally designed for. I'm not calling for postwork galleries as has been mentioned in the past, I think that would make the whole gallery system unmanageable, but as long as heavily postworked pics appear in the Poser galleries then they have to live alongside the non-postworked images. This does not mean they bear direct comparison. It's apples and oranges ;) That's my $0.02 anyway.

Ah, the never ending debate. Your comment does go against the usual post seen here though. Normally someone is upset because they don't think postworked anything should be in the Poser gallery. LOL Anyway, I do think that painted hair and clothing look very good when done with talent. Just like Poser hair and clothing look very good when done with talent. I personally suck at painting. I wish I didn't, but alas tis true. Everything being equal, I just sit back and enjoy the talent that the talented artists put in the galleries.

LOL. Painted hair doesn't always look better than props. Sometimes images can look over postworked. Further, I'm more impressed by an artist's willingness to demonstrate a range of subject matter in their work. I tend to find myself ambivalent just because someone elses at painting hair on yet another pinup. But that could just be me...

I like this kind of topics :} Everyone can do hair paintings realy no problem... Why simple just check out 90% of the hairpainted images, and you will see thats 90% out the 90% uses brushes. They all look the same. Oke the hair flows in any direction sure but is does that with the same lines over and over again. And i checked you galery just now and your hairjob looks the same over and over again for 90%. So is doing some brush over in "photoshop" transfrom your painting to a higher leven wel IMHO no. Seeing the same brush used over and over again is just a simple as a hair prop. Everybody does the image the way they like and to there ability. And then why is somebody who's painting the hair and the clothes and the background or what ever more in an image, not paint the whole thing from scratch ?. Let people make what they wanna make. Just my 2 euro cents Chris

IMHO, I think heavily postworked Poser images should be in the "Mixed Medium" Gallery!

Chris: Just wanted to let you know...I don't use premade hair brushes. Every stroke that is painted is done by hand, one by one. And yes, a lot of them look similiar. But if you look at a portrait of me, you will see why. I paint hair like I see it, and my hair is my reference. To everyone else: I'm sorry I started this post. I had some frustration, I let it out, and now I've been trashed for it. Oh well, Renderosity loses another artist. No biggie. They have thousands. They won't miss me. But I've decided for now to just keep my art as my own and not post here for the time being. I work hard at my art (weeks at a time on a picture getting it just right sometimes), yet I feel underappreciated (as do some of my friends who have long gotten smart and left this place). It's sad that you have to comment on others work just to have them look at yours. You can no longer post something and have tons of people look at it and comment unless you are one of those that have been here forever, comment on everything, or are part of the "popular" group. Just because I don't post on everyone's picture doesn't mean I don't like it. It just means that it didn't jump out and grab me, looks like everything else I have already seen, or I just don't have the time to comment. (Full time job, a marraige to plan, and a child take up a LOT of my time. Also, I am not a liar. I see a lot of people post tons and tons of comments on people's pictures, yet every comment says the same thing. It just doesn't seem sincere. There are tons of time when I refrain from commenting for the simple fact that I might see a flaw. But I know no one is perfect, so I don't say a word. I don't want to be known as the "criticizer" and the "she thinks she's perfect" artist. So, I comment on those people's work that I admire, and those images that I know someone has spent a great deal of time on because of the level of extreme detail and the attention to that detail shows. SVDL is a good example. Yes, a majority of it is poser done, but the time spent shows. Every piece of dynamic cloth looks natural, every curve of the body is where it belongs, etc. SVDL doesn't slap on dynamic clothes, hair, etc, and leave it at that. You can tell that every detail imaginable was looked at from many different angles. And there are a few others like that, and when I see them I comment. But like I said before, that's a rare thing these days. But that's my opinion. Maybe a few hours to you is a long time to create a picture, or you don't have the time to do 100's of test renders. But it shows. Oh well, I am not going to keep going on. Just remember this. I never once said what is posted here isn't art...because it is. Just not to me personally. I asked myself a rhetorical question aloud on paper and was slammed. Guess that's what happens when you post on a public forum that has an immense sea of different personalities. You rub 98% of them the wrong way. Don't worry, lesson learned. Good-bye renderosity! Happy rendering, drawing, creating, or whatever else you want to call it.

I hope you still read this. Don't go because you don't get comments. Don't because of this tread of mails. I will tell you something simular to this site: I make dance and disco mixes as a hobby aswell. These mixes sometimes i upload to a group of mix fans. Then they get downloaded my hour mixes that takes about 2 months to make. And after 900 download i have zero zipp non 0,0 reactions on them. So never expect repley's or reactions comment or what ever. Show your work because you want to, i for one just check the views amount.. Some time i have 500 view no comment what so ever. So be it. And to you leaving this comunity thats a shame for us... But don,t take the short cut by just leaving because it does not give you what you think you deserve... You do have "fans" looking at the views on your images and who knows somebody is inspired by your work but you just dont know it. Sorry for the bad english my dutch is much better :} Chris

Don't leave just because people disagree with you.. not one poster here has actually attacked you personally, just taken an opposite view to yours. Is that really a good reason to decide that you're not going to grace this site again, ever? jonthecelt

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. So why is ol' Sam being like this? Well, boys and girls, I'll tell you... First of all, I have absolutely no dispute with the fact that Prog and the others mentioned are damn good artists. I count prog as a friend and I have to say he has way too much class to wade in and start pontificating about how people should produce their artwork. The gent has mad skills and a first class personality. Avengia, on the other hand, seemingly cannot take someone having a contrary point of view without making a personal attack, as in post 17 of this thread. To then throw a tantrum and leave is not the action of anyone I would miss or wish to associate with. I generally stay away from online disputes but for the first time in a very long time Avengia's attitude has seriously brought me close to a TOS violation.

lesee, first Avengia refers to another rosity member as a whore, then she says "Good-bye renderosity! Happy rendering, drawing, creating, or whatever else you want to call it." For some strange reason I find myself percieving this statement as an unspoken "whatever else you want to call it 'cause it aint Art". My bad if thats not the case but DAMN it really really really feels like it. Having read this thread, I find myself feeling that I am lumped into the "not and artist" category of this members perception. I have spent days, sometimes weeks test rendering every single lightset in a 24 or 48 lightset option package (mystic blue, mystic green, soft blue, etc etc etc) for best look. I have spent hours checking postures for realism, making sure people are standing not floating, custom morphing clothes with magnets for a better fit to characters, experimenting with materials to customize item appearances, checking multiple camera angles to confirm positionings etc etc. And all this means squat and im not an artist cause I didnt stop with the model bald and procede to paint my own hair? What about the time spend trying several different hairs on the model? What about all the textures tested before settling on the right one for the image? What about the hair pose chosen and any additional magnet morph adjustments? Again meaningless because it was done in poser and not on a wacom tab? Sorry, but from my perception, the problems in this tread originate from unfortunate choices of words to express an opinion, and needlessly offensive responses from the post originator, And I find myself not particularly enthused to fight to keep her around.....

i looked at Avengia's gallery.... I must say, I belive my "plastic hair" looks much better than his/her cartoon hair. from what i can see, avengia needs to concentrate on lighting, materials of the rendered parts, and composition/assembly of images. and in my opinion, if your going to use photograpic backgrounds, you need to strive for photographic (looking) foregrounds.