Quote - The last pics are scary. Poor girls!

And no one thinks they're beautiful.  There's a lot more to anorexia than beauty and appearance, otherwise it could be cured by showing anorexics pictures of themselves next to pictures of "beautiful people." 

On the other hand, I would bet that "thin is in" keeps a lot of people healthily weight conscious..

Quote -  

I don't understand the "Society makes me feel bad about myself" claims.

Oh you would if you were an average size or God forbid above average in size woman going shopping looking for a cute outfit and  all the really cute outfits are for size 6 and the ones in your size are unflattering and made out of the ugliest material etc.  Whoever thought that large women look good in large bold prints has rocks in their head.

Or going to a sale only to find that all that is left on the racks are for size 6.  Ever wonder why the size 14 and up are snapped up first?  Because that's what most women are, yet skinny girls barely out of puberty made up to look 20 something are shoved in our faces on a daily basis in magazines and TV and movies etc.

Men for some reason don't seem to have a stereotypical norm to try and fit into. Their hair goes gray and they are "distinguished".  

How many hair colour commercials are on during an hour long tv show? It seems like every other one. Who are they geared to?  Women!   If a woman doesn't colour her hair to hide the gray she's "old". Plus take a look at who does the commercials?  You won't find an ugly or fat woman doing them because that's "not appealing" and won't sell their product.  The women are Hollywood celebrities or models. 

The ad execs use beautiful and thin women because it gives the illusion that we too will look like that and have sex appeal etc if we use their product.  It's ad gimmics and unfortunately they work, but they also set the standard by which the rest of us have to live with on a daily basis.

Fat, old, tall, short...it doesn't seem to matter for a man. Tabloids are constantly keeping an eye on the women of Hollywood and when most men put on 10 pounds there is barely a blip on the Tabloid radar.  However a woman puts on 5 pounds and it's splashed everywhere.

You're letting "them" get to you, Acadia.  Not good...  Just ignore those "messages" and don't read anything in to them.

To me Blackhearted's 'Girl Next Door' and 'Irina'  both look 'athletic' to me according to the above chart.

I think we left out 'Pornstar' body type though :)

I'd like to see a similar chart done for men - ha ha

Quote - You're letting "them" get to you, Acadia.

No I'm not.  If I were I'd be colouring my hair and twig thin.

I consider myself  "average", and I know many "average" women, and I can assure you that we all have bouts of low self esteem at times because of the pressure exerted by "society "on women to conform to a certain "ideal".  Unfortunately there are some women  who are willing to jump through hoops in order to conform, regardless of what it does it does to them physically or mentally or emotionally.

Well then think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit, rather than pressure to conform.  I wish my wife would do that.  

Quote - Well then think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit, rather than pressure to conform.

Why would I want to do that when I consider them unhealthily underweight? The nicest images shown at the top of this thread are the "voluptuous" women which many consider "full figured" or "plus sized" and some might even call them "fat", which isn't the case at all.  They are simply typical, average,  normal sized women. 

And that is the entire problem right there.  To be  average/normal and at a healthy body weight is deemed unacceptable in the eyes of society and clothing designers.

You may not realize it but you also fall into that "society" catagory with that statement of "think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit."  That implies that to you anything but "thin" is not fit. 

But are they really unhealthily under weight?  Or do they just make you feel bad?  And since when does average mean "correct"?

Quote - But are they really unhealthily under weight?  Or do they just make you feel bad?  And since when does average mean "correct"?

And that brings us full circle to what I said in an earlier post:

Quote -
While I don't particularly care for the female body types that he depicts in most of his morphs because I find them too thin, I don't  begrudge him the right to make whatever figure shapes he wants; after all it's his craft and his store.  While to him they are "ideal",  to me they aren't because I feel the normal average woman is more akin to the top image of his image set.

Those that don't like the the shape of his morphs should just move on and spend their money on morphs  that fit  their own ideals on what a normal, healthy woman's body  looks like

What's really unhealthy is that there's so many nekkid women pics around here and not nearly as many good looking nekkid men.

Bautiful art of the women you guys, incredible art, but for fantasy art...
I just don't fantasize about women. sniffle  I feel so neglected and under-represented.  How about Chippendales or a cabana-boy version of Michael?

[kitty: ducking, running and giggling ------------------------->] :tongue2:

Shit I love your girls Gabriel, if people don't want to render them, then great... no arguement, they won't buy them... but for us that love 'em... carry on man... awesome, awesome product... spoken as a true fantasy Poser renderer...oh ahng on... did I say fantasty... is Poser suppose to be real life... hell I better change the way I render...LOL... Top products Gabriel... LOVE 'EM!!!! and I have them all!

Quote - As long as society equates “thin” with sexy, successful and that the “thin” are the only ones worthy of life, then the number of eating disorders with continue to grow at an alarming rate. We live in a society that if one does not fit into the glamorous fantasy world of Hollywood they are shunned. It is as if they had a hump on their back and lived in a bell tower or should be burned at the stake. More and more people are being treated terribly because they don’t look a certain way. Women are bombarded daily with images and content on how they are “suppose” to look. It seems that every time a woman picks up a “Glam” magazine her self worth drops 50 points or more. She is reminded by a shallow society that because she doesn’t look like a “star” or what society deems as beautiful she should hide herself away or need not live.

See that is the problem - how and who do you equate as "society"?  I weigh a good 75 lbs more now than I did 13 years ago when my husband and I married.  Yet though my shape is along the lines of the upper row, which some would consider fat or overweight due to not being "thin" or "skinny"  I am hit on and approached more often now, in fact almost every time I go out I am approached. Even the friend's of my boys (teens and late teen) apparantly consider me attractive (much to my son's amusement) and you'd think they'd prefer "skinny" or "thin" as one would presume they were more influenced by Hollywood.

My point?  I can only gauge things from my own perspective and my view is that "society" is not made up of Hollywood wannabes, actresses, directors and entourage but rather of  the average individual on the street.  Frequently I have heard men say that they prefer women with curves and consider them "real women" instead of "little girls"  the same for the majority of women. 

This makes the "glamour" mags and actresses appeareances irrelevant to the real woman as it isn't really a true gauge of society's concept of attractiveness but rather a concept behind looking good on screen which isn't the same.

Quote – “Yeah, okay.  Exaggerate much?”  I do look at other demographics and there is a lot of wonderful mainstream magazines and programs beginning to bust the myth on what is attractive out there. However the young women and teen girls suffering from this disorder obviously are NOT seeing what is being accepted as attractive.

 Two years ago my sister lost her daughter to anorexia she was 17. Her reasons for starving herself was her image of herself, she needed to look like the women in the fashion mags and in the movies because this would be the only way to be accepted by girls her age and to attract boys. A close colleague of mine is a therapist and has been in the field for over 30years. She deals with not only eating disorders but also other society-based disorders. Most of the individuals she councils are teen girls and she is getting a rise in numbers of these girls as patients.  These girls tell my colleague that they want to be skinny. They want to look like the women in the magazine articles, movies and music videos. They are often told by their boyfriends or peers that they are “too fat” or if they can’t dress or look like the popular girls they are ostracized. And it is just not eating disorders this applies to. If this is not influenced by society then what would you deem it as?

 

It is a known fact that humans emulate each other and want whatever the other guy has especially if that person holds a place of prominence in society. Humans do not want to be rejected by their peers and if it happens enough social disorders of some type are often the result. This is very true of young people and they are often the main targets of eating and social disorders. You can’t tell me that the fashion, entertainment and music industry and other popular corporations bombard these kids on a daily basis to use their products or listen to their music and if they don’t they are not “cool” and will not “fit” in with their friends. My last child living at home is 16 and he tells me if you don’t have the popular “gear” you are not acceptable and no one wants to hang with you.

 

The rate of people suffering from depression and social disorders in North America is growing each year and most psychologists and therapists are attributing this to society’s demands on people. Some say they don’t understand how society can make one feel bad about themselves and that is great for those people. However, if an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by. Society has always played a role in influencing people always has always will. What is different today as opposed to years gone by is how we raise our children to look at themselves. It used to be you had your parents telling you that you didn’t need a bunch of stuff, to surround yourself with false friends and be the popular one to feel good about yourself. Unfortunately many kids don’t have this today with the break down of the family unit.  I agree there are more magazines and outlets showing more types of people in many sizes and shapes. There even used to be a program on one of the cable networks of a fashion show for plus size ladies. Some media groups are trying very hard to get the message out that we are not all alike and it’s okay in being so. Then why is there such a startling rise in social and eating disorders in so many people?

 

Cheers,

Micheál

 

Actually in many ways eating disorders are not just about  fitting a preconceived standard set by others.  Often it is also an attempt at control with many young girls who suffer from it trying to find a way to control some aspect of their lives.  They often have overly high standards for themselves or live in a situation that places said standards on them or that removes control from their hands.  Not eating - or controlling what they allow their body to digest is control - it isn't about fitting in as much as people think it is.

That isn't to say that self image and conforming doesn't kick start it for them but rather that they begin to realise that they have control there and that is where it goes out of control.  Being told one is too fat or not good enough is a form of emotional abuse and abuse leads to a need to have some semblance of control.  As women/girls are pushed more and more into being "perfect" women - and I don't mean their looks but having a top career (or top grades for a scholarship) and being a perfect mother and perfect mate while always trying to please everyone the need for control continues and becomes stronger in our youth. 

It isn't really that culturally they feel they must be thin but rather that they feel that according to society they are lacking in some ways and it generally isn't their weight that is the underlying problem.

Many individuals with eating disorders can get to the bottom 2 rows of BH's images and they think they look too fat - they don't see the skin and bones that we do because it's not really about the weight to them but about their own self loathing and self image that may have nothing to do with weight.  If one focuses entirely on their weight to that amount of obsession they do not have to focus on any other aspects of their lives.

pssst sealtm2 - it's "copyright"  not copywrite, as in the "right" to copy ;-)

 (just a personal pet peeve ignore at will)

Quote -
Men for some reason don't seem to have a stereotypical norm to try and fit into. Their hair goes gray and they are "distinguished".  

How many hair colour commercials are on during an hour long tv show? It seems like every other one. Who are they geared to?  Women!   If a woman doesn't colour her hair to hide the gray she's "old".

Actually, when I've seen hair colour commercials it is not what you describe at all.  Men's hair commercials, and there are quite a lot, are without exception about hiding gray hair.  Women's rarely, if ever, mention gray hair at all: they're about changing the colour from brunette to blonde or red, or red to black, or whatever.  The subtext in men's commercials is about looking younger, that in women's about looking stylish.

I don't know how you've never noticed the commercials of men stroking colouring to get rid of gray streaks in their beards or magically having hot young women hanging over them because the brown is back.

Quote -

I don't know how you've never noticed the commercials of men stroking colouring to get rid of gray streaks in their beards or magically having hot young women hanging over them because the brown is back.

Or because their hair is "back"... ;-)

Quote -
This makes the "glamour" mags and actresses appeareances irrelevant to the real woman as it isn't really a true gauge of society's concept of attractiveness but rather a concept behind looking good on screen which isn't the same.

An additional  problem is what magazine you're looking at.  Is it geared to men or women?

It's the fashion model/Playboy model difference.  Women in magazines and commercials and such aimed at men are, on average, bigger (in terms of measurement) and thus curvier than models in fashion magazines and runways.

I'm a little surprised at your therapist colleague if she is the one who coined the term "society-based disorder." In my studies I never heard of one. I haven't seen one listed in the DSM4 - the manual used by Psychologists/therapists as the basis for diagnosis. What I would suspect is that the individuals are suffering from low self-worth and see altering their body in accordance with society's "highest" standards as a means to feel good about themselves. The pressure to look like that comes from within - not from without. I will grant you that there are some sub-cultures within society that have a high degree of peer-pressure, but one does not generally have to become a member of those sub-cultures if one doesn't want to. In the US, there are all sorts of sub-cultures - Yuppies, cowboys, goths, rock-n-rollers, blue-coller workers, religious people etc. - and they don't all have the same values and standards. I think what's key is your statement that, "If an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by." That statement addresses the root of the problem. People don't have positive influences. They have absent fathers or mothers and broken homes. They see little stability in relationships. They see materialism as the goal of their existence, and find it unsatisfying. They see immediate gratification as 'life.' When they can't get that 'stuff' or that immediate gratification (which often happens because life simply isn't a 30 minute sitcom) they feel angry. And when they do get that 'stuff' they feel empty, because that's all it is. Stuff. BTW, nice point LadySilverMage ----- Out of curiosity, has there ever been a time (or culture) when women have not been idealized in some form or another? Has there ever been a time or culture when the local village, kingdom, or society has not pressured people to conform to it's standards? Especially those approaching the age where they could become married? If there has, it's been quite rare, which begs the question, what is genuinely different today?

I've found that I've done quite a few risque renders with the originbal Dodger She-Freak, rather than V3. The figure just looks that little bit more real. Maybe Rosie the Riveter. Up-thread there was a mention of bone protrusion. Your hips and shoulders do make a difference (and a factor in that is how well you're fed as a child, quantity and quality). Maybe I get a false picture of America because TV tends to report the unusual. I see the skinny, silicone-boosted, beach babes and the blatantly obese, and there doesn't seem to be very much in between.

Quote - I'm a little surprised at your therapist colleague if she is the one who coined the term "society-based disorder." In my studies I never heard of one. I haven't seen one listed in the DSM4 - the manual used by Psychologists/therapists as the basis for diagnosis.

Nope Bob that was my fault it should have read social phobias.  She treats eating disorders and social phobias. There is so much I want to fit into my posts but I don't want them to be books either...LOL!  From a personal stand point I don’t always agree with my colleague also I am not the type of individual who has a copy of the DMS4 laying around his library you’ll more likely find a SIG-sauer P226 and a few odd and end books, journals and pamphlets of interest. As a matter of fact I don’t always buy into “society” made me do it. I was just interjecting some material I have read from my research into eating disorders because of my late niece.

I have read many articles and books on eating disorders with real facts by doctors and researchers. But I have also ran across information with not "so fact" opinoins from the authors. Things such as some sociologists believe women in the past two decades have had to hold down three jobs: being a mother; making a living; and being thin. A qoute from Naomi Woolf in her book Beauty Myth "Thinness means discipline, efficiency, and in control." to an author stating that eating disorders are encouraged by society to oppress women. Yet the true professionals say that society does play a roll in eating disorders it is not a large one. However, there are still many therapists claiming that society has a major impact through media and fashion outlets on eating disorders.

Quote - What I would suspect is that the individuals are suffering from low self-worth and see altering their body in accordance with society's "highest" standards as a means to feel good about themselves. The pressure to look like that comes from within - not from without.  I think what's key is your statement that, "If an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by." That statement addresses the root of the problem. People don't have positive influences. They have absent fathers or mothers and broken homes. They see little stability in relationships. They see materialism as the goal of their existence, and find it unsatisfying. They see immediate gratification as 'life.' When they can't get that 'stuff' or that immediate gratification (which often happens because life simply isn't a 30 minute sitcom) they feel angry. And when they do get that 'stuff' they feel empty, because that's all it is. Stuff.

Agreed! I feel this is the main thought, and what I should have stuck with but I had too many thoughts and just kept typing..LOL! It all goes back to what kind of environment we were raised in. What was our means of emotional support? However, that isn't always the case either as with my niece. She was rasied in a loving home with as much emotional support my sister and brother-in-law could give. But as mentioned it's about control and in many disorders control plays a large roll. As I've said these are things I've read my only experience with this subject comes from my sister and even then I didn't feel the full affect. I've been around a long time, been in a lot of bad places and seen a lot of crap. But I am not closed minded to the point I can't learn more about stuff.

Quote - Out of curiosity, has there ever been a time (or culture) when women have not been idealized in some form or another? Has there ever been a time or culture when the local village, kingdom, or society has not pressured people to conform to it's standards? Especially those approaching the age where they could become married? If there has, it's been quite rare, which begs the question, what is genuinely different today?

Things have not changed but one, again my opinion, and that is back in the day people took responsiblity for thier actions and choices and they lived with the out come. Now days it's everyone else's fault or something in their environment has caused them to act the way they do.

LadySM my avatar was meant to be a joke. It has obviously failed...LOL!! OKay I'm done time to go have some fun!

Cheers,
Micheál

connie, check ffabris in the gallery here (and elsewhere) for sexy hunks. dang! I've got avatars turned off, hence I musta missed the joke :lol:

That makes sense. I wonder if there's not also some genetic pre-disposition towards some of the things we deal with today? Or as another alternative, I know that dietary factors have contributed towards girls hitting puberty early. I wonder if that, too plays a factor in things like depression? I think once upon a time people were so worried about the needs of simply living that they didn't worry as much about 'keeping up with the Joneses' or 'what I'm entitled to.' The family support system, though often less than adequate, was there. People didn't move around as much and had more stabilty in their lives. I have no doubt that all of these factors contribute to the problems we see around us and experience. In our "For what it's worth" department, the USA is a very individual-oriented society - to a fault IMHO. Other cultures - for example Japan and many other Asian countries - are very group (society) oriented - sometimes to a fault as well. Group oriented cultures express much more of a demand for conformity than we do. Thus it would be interesting to know if the rates of depression, anorexia, and some of these other diseases - which I agree do have some social element - are higher in the US than in, say Japan.

Quote - Oh you would if you were an average size or God forbid above average in size woman going shopping looking for a cute outfit and  all the really cute outfits are for size 6 and the ones in your size are unflattering and made out of the ugliest material etc.  Whoever thought that large women look good in large bold prints has rocks in their head.

Or going to a sale only to find that all that is left on the racks are for size 6.  Ever wonder why the size 14 and up are snapped up first?  Because that's what most women are, yet skinny girls barely out of puberty made up to look 20 something are shoved in our faces on a daily basis in magazines and TV and movies etc.

actually i find its the other way around here.
in fact i just went shopping with rio last night. every single outfit i saw -- from the most conservative to the skimpiest -- was available from size 00 to size 16 or so. we picked her up a pair of lowrise camo cargos, a plaid miniskirt and fitted white shirt/tie and they had each of them up to size 16 (i know because im generally the one leafing through stacks to find a size 3 for rio) and the shirts from xs up to xxxl.

i read a statement in another thread by someone complaining 'why dont people make average morphs, like a size 16'. at least in canada, size 16 is not average. there are different average weights depending on what country in the world you are in.
here when theres a sale all the size 1-6 are completely gone, and there are always tonnes around 10, 12, 14, etc. you should come shopping in canada.

we use US sizes here in canada, so for those of you in the UK, a US size 10 is a UK size 14.

in terms of my morphs, if some people recall my first GND pack, ages ago for V2, was a combination of 4 different body morphs from thin, athletic, voluptuous and pregnant. so i do intend to do different body types, athletic just happened to be the first on the plate.

I very much look forward to seeing what you can do with a voluptuous morph, Gabe. I know GND2 is walking off the shelves; I think a Voluptuous pack would run!

Quote - What's really unhealthy is that there's so many nekkid women pics around here and not nearly as many good looking nekkid men.

hey...
dont blame the guys. its no suprise that most of the guys here create pinups of female characters.
what i find amusing, however, is that 3/4 of the women create pinups of female characters too.... anyone care to analyze that?
in the meantime i will continue in my belief that its because most women are latent lesbians :)

and if anything, the male poser characters are far more idealized than the female. most female poser morphs are either 'thin' or voluptuously curvy -- conditions that are achieved simply by genetics and watching the portions.... whereas every single male morph is completely ripped in a way that is impossible without hours of daily commitment and a very strict diet.

if i had to make a similar chart explaining the categories of male poser morphs, thered be only one category. pfft.

 I think there are many contributing factors. One these contributing factors in my opinion is the way news and information is easily disseminated. In the past it took days for information to reach people  and in some cases not at all. So people were not aware of many things as they are today so there were less things you felt you had to protect yourself and your children from. Now  in the age of information all the horrors of society are at your fingertips 24/7 and are relayed right down to the cell phone you carry. We hear about more threats to our person and children, about more products that corporations try to sell you because you need them, images of war, violent crime, natural disasters and political corupption. It comes at us from all directions and the only way to escape it is to turn it off. All this has to have an effect on the human psyche.

I agree there was a time when shelter and food were our only concerns and we spent a lot of time and energy into securing it which left little time for anything else. Unfortunately this still happens to many folks even today. There are still many who work more than one job in order to pay the bills and have little time for other things but our perceived list of necessities have changed.

I know that there is a high rate of suicide in Japan. The last information I read is that the government there is trying to come up with programs to relieve the crisis. Poor BH I fear his thread has been totally hijacked...LOL!!

Micheál

Quote - I very much look forward to seeing what you can do with a voluptuous morph, Gabe. I know GND2 is walking off the shelves; I think a Voluptuous pack would run!

its coming...
but there will be at least one other style first, so it will be the 3rd or fourth in the series.

Attached Link: Resolving emotional issues

That's true about the suicide rate in Japan. For example, kids commit suicide for failing in school... they've disgraced their families. That is why I think there can be 'fault' in that group-orientation. A few years ago some Japanese civilians went to Iraq to try to help out. In the US they would have been considered heros, models of self-sacrifice and compassion, but when they returned home, they were ostricized for 'embarrassing' the country by being individuals. IMHO that's just as bad as the US ostricizing many of our poor for not being able to make it on their own or recover from illness or disaster quickly. That list of perceived necessities is a critical factor. We *must* have the 'stuff.' We 'deserve' it. Advertising and Hollywood take our natural desires and whips them up to where we feel entitled to things. Where is that entitlement found in nature? In nature, the only thing you're 'entitled' to is to *try* for to breath just one more time. I think saying society is *at fault* for many of our problems is inaccurate. However, I agree that society contributes. I have seen that those with positive forces in their lives can resist and overcome the messages Madison Avenue and Hollywood send out. However, it *is* normal to want things. One of the ways a good cognitive therapist will do is help people understand the difference between a want and a 'need.' They'll help you work through the emotional issues (the demand for social acceptance) that can be so destructive. They can teach you to counter the false or destructive messages you hear from society. I've linked to something I wrote and posted in the OT forum a coulpe of years ago (It's on my web site). It's a brief summary of what *causes* destructive emotions - barring chemical imbalance. It's a lot shorter (and cheaper) than the many books on the subject. I speak of anger but the principles apply to other issues as well. They say, for example, that depression is merely anger turned inward... -------- Has it occurred to anyone that women may just inherantly be more beautiful than men? That would lead to so many women creating art with women as the theme. Or maybe males depict what they want while women depict what they want to be????

"Or maybe males depict what they want while women depict what they want to be" bob, check yer DSM - this is known as "projection" :lol: seriously, though (at least in regards to poser renders) they may be depicting what the software and available models limit them to. however, to get a valid sampling of opinion, you'd hafta ask everyone why they render what they render.

Yep, it is! Hmmm, I wonder if it would be proper to say that people who create sexually oriented material should make sure they use proper projection in order to prevent unwanted consequences? Actually I don't think there is one answer. People do things for many combined reasons. It's probably futile to attribute this to a single causal factor.

Quote -
Many individuals with eating disorders can get to the bottom 2 rows of BH's images and they think they look too fat - they don't see the skin and bones that we do because it's not really about the weight to them but about their own self loathing and self image that may have nothing to do with weight.  If one focuses entirely on their weight to that amount of obsession they do not have to focus on any other aspects of their lives.

Well, as someone whom has dealt with an eating disorder all my life and been every size from zero to 22 (US) if I started feeling like that looking at the BH's images, instead of appreciating the art and the effort that went into them, I'd be on the phone with my shrink telling him I need a maintenance/reality check-up, it's getting out of hand again.

Hint to those whom are troubled by pretty pictures and fantasy art: There's no message, subliminal or otherwise in BH's images what I'm (or You) are supposed to look like. If I think I see one, it's very much in my own head.

Personally, I don't like to look at overweight models of women myself, noy in pleasant admiration at least, it tends to remind me of all of the physical discomforts of overweightness. Hurting feet, can't keep up in activities I like, heartburn, changing sizes and clothes not fitting right, blah blah, it's a pain in the rear, and the emotional discomfort that frequently preceeds the weight gain.

I think this equine has had enough flogging, I'm off to look at some Handsome Hunk Galleries ;)

Through history, popular body shape - at least for women - has changed drastically. Sparta liked thin women. Rubens loved voluptuous. Now, thin is in, but here in the States overweight is the norm because we have so much fast food and no time to cook healthy stuff - much less exercise. I'm lucky to have a horse which gives me a lot of exercise. Walking and biking is good, too. When I was a teenager I starved myself, now I figure it's stupid. It's better to eat healthy and exercise. Another problem here is that we have no real mass transport in most cities, and in big cities it is not very safe to use the subway or even buses because of crime. Most everyone has a  car and drives - so not much exercise. Personally, I want to look like Angelina Jolie, LOL!!!!

Amazing how some people in this discussion provide their opinions as some kind of fact. Or their own personal experience as proof of one thing or another.

That's about on the level of the old one, 'Well, my uncle has smoked like a chimney all his life and he's 87, so it can't be dangerous to smoke'. Uh-huh. I've actually heard that one used, it made me speechless! For about 5 seconds.

These are two very different things - what you like (or think) - and what is fact.

BH, your first post is spot on, as are all your later replies. Sensible, accurate and unbiased.

And to the person who claimed (and did so seriously, apparently!!) that the first row, Anna Nicole, is some kind of 'normal' - what planet did you fall off? Heavy City USA?

Sure, voluptuous women can be very appealing. That's not the point at all. That's a matter of opinion or taste. It's not relevant here.

Skinny women can also be very appealing, and that's also a matter or taste or opinion.

For goodness' sake - what is typical in the US at the moment (people being large) is not any kind of ideal, nor normality. It's just average modern American.

Go look at 'normal' or average East African - and I'm not talking about starvation, I'm talking about ordinary people who eat and burn fats & carbohydrates at corresponding levels. Look at the sinewy fat-free look of people living the way Homo Sapiens was meant to live. They're more like 'normal'  than MASSIVELY overweight US and some countries in Europe.

That's the level of labour our hearts and other organs are constructed to function most efficiently for. Call it 'sinewy' instead of skinny and we can avoid all the opinions about what constitutes skinny or attractive or whatever.

Calling any thin person 'anorexic' is a disastrous mistake. Anorexia is a severe mental and physical condition that leads to death unless stopped.

:] Fish - viewing this from an physical anthropological perspective, not personal or cultural preference, nor contemporary political correctness.

Quote - I found this image of Nicole Ritchie that shows her weight loss over the months.

Personally, I think she should have stopped in December 2004. The difference over the next year is not an improvement.

Yes anorexia needs to be addressed. But one can only hope Nicole Ritchie and Paris Hilton would both at some point vanish.

For what its worth,as a man,I'm much more attracted to a woman who has some weight ( The voluptuous group in BH's Primer ),than any of the other groups.

 

I think men may fall victim to what society thinks they should like.

 

Hopefully I can explain this.

 

My first wife,fell somewhere in the "thin" to "fit/toned" category.

She was considered "Hot" by society's standards and that was a big boost to "MY" ego.

 

Naturally I felt like a big shot being seen with society's idea of a fine specimen.

 

But I found that was much more physically attracted to heavier women,but I wouldn't admit to that because I thought I'd be ridiculed by my male friends for thinking that way.

 

I was much younger then,and probably fell victim to that kind of pressure.But the truth be told,I'd much rather get wrapped up with a voluptuous woman. I'd also wager that more men than you might think are also attracted to heavier women.Many wouldn't admit it though, because they would feel like they are not subscribing to what society thinks they should be attracted too.

 

Am I making sense here? 

 

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Not only does it seem that society (meaning magazines, movies,etc) try to tell women what they should look like,...it also tries to tell men,what they should be attracted to.

 

I think it comes down to...People have different ideas of what is attractive to them.I just try not to let "Society" decide for me what turns me on.

 

Tom

Gabe,

pleasepleaseplease say that the second of the series will look something like the second "muscular" girl you posted the pic of... just an incredible body pictured there...

personally, i get really tired of people inferring that women are only "real" if they are fleshy.  i'm pretty damned petite [smaller than Amanda], so i absolutely appreciate a thinner V3 [who, imo, is a horrendous cow out of the box...]  and clothes shopping?  well if i wanna look like i'm 12, there's a plethora of clothing out there i could buy [snort]

the reason americans are heavier than, say, europeans is because fast food is a part of our culture here... and fast food is evil stuff. a big mac, large fries, coke, apple pie and some ketchup is just under 1700 calories. thats absolutely fuggin' insane... especially considering that more than half of those calories are coming from fat. 

as for the 'new generation' of fast food?
like apple slices at mcdonalds, salads, baked potatoes, wraps, and heavy marketing of healthier alternatives like subway subs?
bah. whats the point of going to mcdonalds to buy a salad? or apple slices?
if i want apple slices ill step into the grocery store beside the mcd's and just buy some apples.
and whats this caramel BS? why is it that in north america we always have to slather healthy food with something greasy or sweet in order to eat it? caramel sauce on apples. melted process cheese on broccoli. deep fried bananas. whipped cream on blueberries. fried rice... and on and on. it defeats the entire purpose of eating something healthy.

the last time i went to subway with rio, we spent over $20 for a turkey & bacon 12" sub for me, some sortof southwestern chicken 6" sub for rio, and a couple of snapples. screw that, i can just head over to the grocery store and pick up a kilogram of shaved turkey breast, lettuce, tomatoes, some buns, and some swiss cheese for less than that, and eat a sub every day for a week. 

classic fast food was incredibly unhealthy, but at least it had a point.
now? having salads and baked potatoes and subs at a fast food joint is just an excuse for being too lazy to walk into a grocery store and buy groceries, and perhaps pack a healthy bag lunch for yourself.
im 29, self employed, and most of my friends my age are college graduates with good jobs -- yet all they do is bitch about how they are overweight and need to get in shape, and how they never have any money. one of them is whining that he doesnt even have a car because it broke down and he cant afford to fix it. yet what did he do last night? and the night before? order pizza.

all of them eat out at fast food joints on a regular basis, order pizza almost nightly, and none of them pack a bag lunch or even make breakfast at home -- they eat breakfast in a donut shop and pay $4-5 every morning for a coffee they can make at home for 20 cents and some donuts they probably shouldnt be eating anyway. thats over $100 a month, and thats just breakfast. on average most of them are spending almost $20 a day on coffees, donuts, and lunch in a cafeteria, then coming home and ordering pizza for another $30. thats $50 a day just to eat unhealthy.

youll be much healthier and have several hundred more dollars in the bank at the end of the month if you just make a resolution to visit the grocery store instead of a fast food restaurant, eat breakfast at home, and pack a healthy bag lunch. cook dinner yourself rather than take the easy way out and order pizza.

Subway is very expensive. When I was a reporter I worked 60 hours a week and was on call 24-7 with a police scanner running non-stop. I did not have time to cook anything at home, but tried to get salads whenever possible. However, here (US) it is not easy. Everything is supersized. They even made a movie called "Supersize Me" and the guy really got sick from all the  fast food he ate while making the documentary. I was In England and France last summer, and everyone walks. Even to get a London tube train you must walk walk walk in the tunnel to catch the right train. That's why they are so thin. All the walking.

bah, theres no excuse that you have to eat fast food.
while i was in college i worked 3 jobs -- weeknights at an auto body shop, weekends unloading trucks at purolator courier, and extreme late tuesday and thursday nights driving cars back from the auction for a car dealer friend of mine. on sunday evening i cooked huge pots of chili, stews, etc. i froze them in serving size tupperware, and when i was heading out i grabbed one, chucked it in a little lunchbox-sized soft cooler with some drinks and fruit and off i went. it would keep everything cool during the day and when i had time for lunch id pop em in the microwave and have a hearty yet healthy meal.
you could do the same by making sandwiches the night before, or hell even if you pick up some of those stouffers's or michelina's or whatever frozen entrees you are still better off then eating big macs and whoppers :)

...and knowing i wasnt eating any partially defatted beef fatty tissue, mechanically separated chicken, pork by-product, beef tripe, or any of today's charming ingredients was a bonus :)

i come from the UK, Drifterlee, not everyone is thin, should travel outside of london i hate LONDON and go to places like Kent of Eastsussex, the NORM there is a size UK 16+ i fitted right in!

What i found funny, when i was pregnant, i had guys trippin over themselves at me, i was horrified, then after having my son, blah blah blah, two years later, i was at my heaviest, and again guys where attracted by that, i thought they where MAD LOL, after loosing a lill weight, still the attraction was there, even from friends, both sexes, with all the Skinny/thin stuff in mags, i didnt care, i dont want to look like a bag of bones, i like having MEAT.

Tis why i was happy after my first marrige failed i met a 21 year old who LOVED women over a size 18+, he detests the "cheerleader look" ok i did laugh at that but coming to the US, i didnt feel well, FAT, i was thinner then some of the people here, being tall as well, i for the first time ever felt small compaired to some here!

 

anyhoo ill shut up now LOL

I'm with Tom - voluptous women all the way.

Fast food? Didn't know it existed anymore. Last time I stopped for a mcBurger (about eight years ago) it didn't make it to me very fast... ;) Somewhere along the way the same thing happened with "Music" Television... :D

Voluptous...Voluptous...

It's a chant, really.

I'm the opposite of hawkfyr.  I find thin  women to be physically attractive, however my wife who I love dearly, is on the heavy side of voluptuous.  Love does not equal physical attraction.  My mother has always been thinner than BH's thin.  She's alive and healthy in her mid-80's.

Two of the biggest "Society Disorders" that we have are people's unwillingness to take responsibilty for their actions and to look for convenient scapegoats on which to place blame.  This is something that children do.  Unfortunately it's becoming accepted behaviour in adults.   

There's much more to anorexia than "pressure to be thin."  I think it's a slow way of committing suicide, where the victim is "calling for help" -- much like someone who overdoses on sleeping pills as opposed to shooting him/her self in the head.  In the case of anorexia "pressure to be thin" is just the easiest and most convenient thing to blame, but probably not the real cause.

Attached Link: Sonya Thomas

Maybe the best way to stay thin is to gorge ourselves on lots of food in a short period of time.   Look at eating champions Takeru Kobayashi and Sonya Thomas.  Maybe they should be our role models.... 

Quote - I'm the opposite of hawkfyr.  I find thin  women to be physically attractive, however my wife who I love dearly, is on the heavy side of voluptuous.  Love does not equal physical attraction.  My mother has always been thinner than BH's thin.  She's alive and healthy in her mid-80's.

That's why it's important to find someone who subscribes to the same "ideal" as you do.

On a side note, I hope you don't harp at her about how she looks. That's a sure way of hammering down someone's self esteem and making them either eat more or starve themselves trying to fit a mould that they don't necessarily want to fit into themselves.

I'll bet that you look different than you did when you were younger and first married.  Maybe less hair, not as fit etc. It's a fact of life. 

If you love your wife, you love her unconditionally, and that means who she is, not what her physical packaging looks like. Large or small, she's still the same woman that you fell in love with and married. 

We are more than our outsides which changes over the years and becomes shriveled and wrinkled or disfigured from accidents etc.   The "person" inside remains the same, and that's the entire essence of who you fell in love with.

gad..this took off..;)

Where to begin;

I think what's 'sexy' is seen as an ideal, something hard (or impossible) for most people to acheive. The reason Rubenesque was popular then was that it was hard to get fat then, so it was an ideal people strived for. Now, since everyone can get fat, skinny's the new inny..;)

Besides that, as anyone who's gotten to the p*rn areas of the web show, anything can be considered attractive. So for everyone, there's something that appeals.

I used to have a Playboy collection going from 62-96, and the foldouts from the 60's are, well, closer to 'Rubenesque' than say, the 80's. So the form changes over time.

Different cultures have different areas of attraction; I'm told Japanese men have a thing for long necks, and in West Africa, a large, er, 'bum', is the thing. But I could be wrong, or outdated.

And, surprisingly, obesity is now becoming a problem in the 3rd world as well, according to reports. Fast food is becoming universal, with the resulting consequences.

Japanese do place a high priority on conformity, they have a saying " the nail that sticks out gets hammered back in"

My daughter could get into a size 0 (US) back when she was 15. Of course now, being 7 months, those days are over..;) I didn't know they even had size 0 then.

And, as I remember (I'm just a repository of useless information..;) Marylin Monroe was a size 14, and that was back in the 50's...;)  I'm also told that  clothing manufacturers are 'relaxing' the size numbers, so a n 8  now might be a  10 or 12  20 years ago.

If I ever figure out how to get the clothes to match the model, I'll do less 'stock' images (I remember 'deflating' Dina, and then the clothes go on, and she's back to 'voluptuous'..;)

ok..that's my 2 cents..;)

She was always on the heavy side of voluptuous.  I was wise enough to look past that.  When we met I was unemployed, she was wise enough to look past that.  I harp on her now and then about losing weight for health reasons, not looks reasons. 

hawkfyr said:

**>**For what its worth,as a man,I'm much more attracted to a woman who has some weight ( The voluptuous group in BH's Primer ),than any of the other groups.<

Me too.  I like the "fit" and "voluptuous" body types (as in the Primer pics) but the older I get, the more I seem to gravitate to the curvy types.

and:

 

I think men may fall victim to what society thinks they should like.<

 

I agree, some men might. I think I did. 

 

And to take the discussion back to Poser -- and I think this is funny: I honestly think that in the 2 years since I got serious with Poser, my practice in morphing V3's body to my liking has actually influenced my taste in real women!  or maybe it has simply awakened a latent appreciation for serious curves - like these :)

http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1159522&member

are you sure marilyn monroe was a size 14 in the 50s?
she looks like a pretty small size 14 :)

Perhaps our passions change as we age.

 

I mean..look at me back in my younger days.

 

8 )

Tom