This could be a simple question or it could be a loaded one, but anyway; how would you describe the type of art we create with Poser? And what medium would you say we use?

A few days ago I was asked these questions by a traditional artist; “by traditional I mean paints and brushes, drawing pencils and so forth” up till now I thought that I was a digital or graphic artist, using a digital medium, but now after my interrogation,  I’m wondering is there another title we go by?

(Btw) I started out as a traditional artist, and I still hold true to it. It’s the diversity between mediums that keep my creative energy high.  

as to what poser is/does I have found that the best quick answer is "animation" (even though i rarely do any animation) however if i am talking with someone about it i will describe it as  "virtual photography" and animation.

as for what i call myself....I'm an artist.

Digital art is what I call my work.  Sometimes it's Digital mixed media depending on if I've scaned colored in the computer or done in computer and printed out and painted over it, then I call it mixed media.

Most of the trade magazines that deal with photoshop, 3d, painter et al call it Digital artwork.

http://www.ballisticpublishing.com/books/expose2/

Expose books call it ""EXPOSÉ 2 is the second edition of the industry's most recognized annual art book celebrating the creative talents of digital artists worldwide."

of course sometimes I call it doodling in my Barbie and Ken program.  But I'm often called a jerk.

Seems  "CG Artist" is pretty well accepted.

Personally, and this is my personal view only! :

I don't see myself as an artist, I can't paint, I can't draw in the accepted way!  I found some software [poser, vue and comic book creator] that allows me to create images and stories that I like to do for my own and/or others enjoyment but to call it art isn't right! 

Now maybe some of you do Art with it and that's great and I have no issue with that, I'm answering the post from my own viewpoint.

These are my views on my work so don't start anything!!

At this point in my education of 3D programs, I call myself a "Digital Artist Wannabe".  I'm not the best, but, I'm not the worst.   A friend of mine refers to me as "the computer artist", because all the work done is, of course, on the computer.  I prefer digital artist, even if it's not totally correct.

Always remember though, first and foremost, we are in fact artists.  No matter what anyone else in the industry may say about Poser...If it comes from the heart and the imagination, it's art no matter how you created it. (yes, I'm bitter about a certain CGI website that insulted artists who use Poser)

StevieG

The word 'digital' is derived from the Latin word 'digitus' for finger... so.. aren't Digital Artists...

Finger Painters...?

he he  :tt2:

yeah, they're digitised renderings of the surfaces facing the virtual camera. the surfaces represent the computer's calculations of the relative locations of virtual 3D objects in a virtual 3D space, and the appearance is altered by calculations involving virtual lights, texture maps, reflection maps, shadow maps, etc. as it stands now, art snobs often say they're not art, since they're entirely computer-generated, but 100 years from now they'll probably be recognised as art, as they currently require at least some minimal amount of human intervention to create digital images. that won't be the case in the future, when similar renderings will be an wholly automatic machine process, with absolutely no human involvement required.

a hobby..;)

A hole we throw money into?  LOL!

"Digital" would include working exclusively in Photoshop.

"3D artist" sounds better - for those that are artists.

How about...

Com-poser!

A 3D Craftsman, but I say theijudiciously.  Craftsmen is what ALL artist were once referred to as, up until the Renaissance.  By the same token, Playwrights are still referred to by their old name, and not as Playwrites, which puts them on a par with the old time wheelwrights.  One fashioned wheels while the other fashioned plays.
One of the reasons that Shakespeare didn't take better care of his manuscripts is that he didn't consider them lituratuer any more than modern day moviescripts are.  Liturature was for the poets and philosophers, while play, wheels, and waggons were cobbled together by playwrights, wheelwrights and wainwrights from various discrete parts.
Which is basically what we do with Poser, cobvble together pictures from various discrete objects.  A Graphowright!
David P. Hoadley

"yeah, they're digitised renderings of the surfaces facing the virtual camera.
the surfaces represent the computer's calculations of the relative locations
of virtual 3D objects in a virtual 3D space, and the appearance is altered
by calculations involving virtual lights, texture maps, reflection maps,
shadow maps, etc.

as it stands now, art snobs often say they're not art, since they're entirely
computer-generated, but 100 years from now they'll probably be recognised
as art, as they currently require at least some minimal amount of human
intervention to create digital images. that won't be the case in the future,
when similar renderings will be an wholly automatic machine process, with
absolutely no human involvement required."

2 points here...

1. When photography was invented, for many years "traditional" artists decried it as "not being art - it wasn't painted!". It became accepted as being art, because of the effort still required to light and frame a photograph, and, if necessary, pose any "figures" in the photo. Photography is now considered an ar, when the result is artistic (whatever that means)t. And when "moving pictures" came along, the same thing happened.

Now we have a digital equivalent. But you still have to light the scene, frame it properly, and in our case add figures (if required) and pose them..

1. Computers will not equal humans for art creation (in any media) until they evolve (or are programmed) to the point where they can understand aesthetics, and that requires a very sophisticated level of  "artificial intelligence". AI for computers is, at present, somewhere near the level of the intelligence of a bacterium. A tremendous advance over what was true only a few years ago, but there's no sign of a break-through on the AI front at present, mainly because nobody knows how the human mind works, how it processes "data", nor what extarnal influences really influence thinking. Which is why psychiatry(SP?) is more of an art-form than a science...

And until the human brain is fully understood, there's no way that a lump of silicon can be programmed to emulate it. (If you don't know the destination, then any paths out from where you start from are random.) Of course there's always the (very remote) chance of a fluke...

I'll shut up now...(before I show how little I know)

Cheers,
Diolma

There are many people who fully don't understand their own brain...heheheh. We are not a perfect species, although there are many who fail to see this fact, I don't know if I want a machine programmed to emulate a human brain we make far too many mistakes

Cheers,
Micheál

i guess the proper name for us would depend on who you are trying convince. When I talk to traditional artists I call myself "an electronic Media Artist", when I talk to animators I call myself "computer animator" and when I talk with someone who works in either Maya, softimage, Lightwave, or 3D Studio Max, it's "just someone who knows better" the creed of the artist: "All is darkness.... my soul swims in it."

"I don't know if I want a machine programmed to emulate a human brain we make far too many mistakes."

As in Frank Herbert's "Destination Void." Which led to, "The Jesus Incident" and the "Lazarus Effect."

Computer Graphics Artist. CGArtist. Been a musician most of my life. Anything created with imagination is artistic.

As I said, a 'Graphowright,' for we stitch and sew, morph, whittle, and whet to make our figures and props fit the scenes we wish to create.  Computers and programs are simply the tools that we use, and some of them are quite sophisticated, just as a modern Router is much more sophisticated than the traditional Hammer and Chisel.  But the artistry is the quality of the skill with which we wield these tools.  This is what seperates the Craftsman from the amature, just as in days of yore, one started out as an apprentice, then a journeyman, and finally graduated to the status of Craftsman.
David P. Hoadley

"...how would you describe the type of art we create with Poser?"

3d-paint-by-numbers

I love Poser, but I'd be embarrassed to call myself an "artist" when creating anything with canned content.  In all fairness to us Poserites though, there is a more significant issue than 'artistic talent' that most of us have to deal with in 3dcg:  Time.  A lot of us could spend a few years  modeling, mapping and rigging and still struggle to approach the quality of a Poser 3 figure.  With Poser we can start with great figures, great textures, (ok, lame rigging ;), etc and still have many hours invested to generate even a simple still.  Would I like to make a quality figure from scratch, map, texture and rig it myself?  Sure.  But it's completely out of the question simply due to time.  I'll never have a chance to find out whether I'm 'capable' of it. . . and, I'll never be an "artist" using canned content, but, what the heck, it's fun.

The issue here is not whether to use the word "artist" - or we'll get into the "what is art" debate again and we had that very recently. Some people here are artists and some are not. If you think you're not an artist, you're not one. The issue is, for those who are artists, what sort of artist? This is the spirit of the OP's question.

Craftsmen!  But craft combined with skill equals ART!   I am a craftsman who aspires to someday obtrain such skill.
David P. Hoadley

Digital Art is the overarching term for the entire coputer-aided artistic field.

After that, it gets funky, as noted above.

And MachineClaw is NOT a jerk, so whoever called him that best be apologizin...

what should we call ourselves?

lonely little trolls who stare at a small screen for hours.

mmm i paint, draw, create 3d stuff,make music,make remixes,create 3d images, ...

so what am i called ..someone with too less time in a day :}

Chris 

how would you describe the type of art we create with Poser?

Rubbish? A waste of webspace? A waste of paper when printed out? A waste of harddisk space (but not as bas ar our runtimes though).

OK, now more serious though..... art? You can create art with Poser? I've seen stunning images created with Poser, but I haven't seen any art created with Poser at all. I call it virtual art.... we all think it's art, but it's only virtual art.

CGI creator

Computer Generated imagery creator.

Tom

in all seriousness do those who use poser actually need a label. does the work created in poser need a label. why not call it art and let those who view the work agree or disagree. (not all art is good art ) if you mean what medium is it......i'd say it's an electronic multi media montage and visual art. i don;t agree it's a virual art because it has substance, it can be printed etc. to say it's virtual art is the same as saying a poem read on here is a virtual poem. if i had to encapsulate what kind of art it is in a word i'd have to say visual.

jmo

tom..is it you thats computer generated or the imagery lol.

billy

I can draw and write, so I consider myself a "hobby artist" as I do it for the pleasure and not as a profession.

I also use Poser and seeing that I can't model or texture and have to use "canned" products, I still consider myself a "hobby artist".

When I make something using Poser, I put thought into it.  Which figure will I use.  Which character morphs? Which textures (one or many combined)? What clothing? What pose? What lighting (lights make or break your image)? What setting?  What do I want to convey with my image? 

I don't just take 3D models and slap other models (clothing etc) onto it.  Sometimes even the most basic of my images will take several days to make. The one with unicorns took something like 10 days  before I was happy with it.

I think that even though some people claim to have no talent for painting or drawing and only use Poser with "canned" goods, that they are selling themselves short by not considering what they do as "art".  Art is about creating and using your imagination.  If Poser allows you to do that, then you are an "artist' who just happens to use a program called "Poser" as your tool instead of brushes or charcoal and canvas.

Hi billy423uk and hawkfyr, nice seeing you two again.  If you'll look in my gallery, you'll see some images that aren't displeasing to the eye.  But I prefer to call them craftsmanship rather than art.  I like them, but as to their artistic qualities, I'll leave that to someone less biased than myself to judge.
I prefer my coined term for what we do: Graphowright.
David P. Hoadley

Hi David

Yeah...that's why I stayed far away from the word "Art' and used the word "imagery".

In all the years we've been here we've heard 1000+ interpretations of what "Art" is.

So I stand clear of the word if at all possible around here.

images (imagery) which is Computer Generated.

Nice Gallery By The Way

Tom

It's Only Virtual til you print it out and make Posters with it.

hawkfyr, thanks for the kind words about my gallery.  I've seen much better images than mine, which is why I consider myself an apprentice, and not even a journeyman.  I would suggest the term 'Graphic Fabrications' rather than imagery.  That way we remain spiritually faithfull to a tradition which is centuries old.  All art has its origins in craft.  The more skilled the craftsman, the more esthetically pleasing his art.
David P. Hoadley

QUOTE:"In all the years we've been here we've heard 1000+ interpretations of what "Art" is."

well, tom, here´s one more:

art, as i see it, is something genuine,

it is not undoable or reproduceable,

it is touching you by whatever means.

accordingly (and inevitably) art is something different for each of us, but in the end (using the words of juliet):

"that which we call a rose by any other word would smell as sweet."

so be good, folks, and enjoy your 2D and 3D-apps. i wish you all lots of endless nights spent in front of the screen, but please cut this - er - thread.

back to my hobby now...

Andi

hi david.

to me the art ( i use the term loosely for fear of retribution )done in poser and by the brush are just pictures...some good some bad and some unusual lol. i either like em or i don't i couldn't really care what people call them. as for a graphowright...couldn't that be misconstruded as one who makes graphs lol? (a statistical representational anyliser)

had a peek at the gallery. my fave is the girl laying in the pool.

billy

That' could be another accurate description as well.

However when I think of the word "Fabricate. I think of creating something with "Raw"materials.

for example...I was in the Commercial and Residential  flooring industry for a good part of my life  (25 + years and far too long IMHO)

When we did Carpet, VCT (Tile) , hardwood,Vinyl, Laminate Ceramic,etc. we considered those Finished materials, which we simply installed,and the manufacturer actually "Created" those materials. It was not unlike acquiring pieces of a puzzle,and arranging them (Installing them ) out in the field Other than cutting then to fit,we really didn't "Create"the floor,we just assembled it. (Which is an art in and of it's own if you ask any flooring mechanic)

Now...after being rather bored with my career, I went into "Industrial" installations and primarily ,we did "Resin" applications which was more durable for industrial applications This type of flooring was different,  We would take buckets of Resin, sand, mixers,grinders,and everything else out into the job location, and "Fabricate" that  floor, right out there in the field. Every job turned out different depending on the consistancy of the mix,as well and the temperature an humidity.

I say all of that to say this.

100 people could look at those floors and whether they were pre-fabricated and assembled , or "fabricated on the site. some would say it was "Art" and  others would not.

I'm trying to make a parallel with what we do here.

100 people can look at a piece  done in Poser  and again, some will call it "art" and others will call it a prefabricated assembly of several pre-made elements.

But ...I think if the same 100 people were to look at the piece done in Poser, it is likely that they would all agree that "Art or not. it is in fact and "Image" 

Tom

accordingly (and inevitably) art is something different for each of us, but in the end (using the words of juliet):

agreed  My point exactly

so be good, folks, and enjoy your 2D and 3D-apps. i wish you all lots of endless nights spent in front of the screen, but please cut this - er - thread.

Huh?

WTF is that supposed to mean?

Be Good?

Who the F**k are you to tell me to "Be Good"?

Your is only but one interpretation of Art and not final word on what it is or is not?

Now do we all see why we should stay away from the word "Art"?

Tom

That's a VERY nice floor hawkfyr, I dare say that I could trim my beard using it as a mirror.
In its way, it has almost the same esthetic value as those Japanese gardens that consist of only rocks and lines marked in pure white sand.
The American authoress, Jean M. Auel, in her third novel "The Mammoth Hunters,' expressed the opinion that ART is any act that's preformed with absolute perfection.  The protagonist of the story, Ayla, was considered to be an artist with her sling: her aim was phenominal, and so was the speed with which she cast.  She could sling multiple stones within nanoseconds of each other, and each would be perfectly aimed.
Yours truly,
David P. Hoadley
PS: Ther is absolutly no need to end a thread in whch each of us treats the other with civilith, and the exchange of ideas is both fruitfull and stimulating.  It is not engraved on any stones, nor has it descended from MT. Sinai that a thread can be only x number of posts long.

me and my big mouth again....

i´ve stepped on your toes, tom, and i am sorry for that. i didn´t mean to, and i have no reason to. please forgive me.

english is only my second language, and unfortunately it happens again and again, that the most innocent word brings me into trouble...."be good", as i understand it, is simply a phrase of wishing well, like "farewell", " good night" or "enjoy your holidays". i did not mean it as:"...and now sit down, young man, and eat your porridge!" .....ok?ok.

you know, i never posted to an "art"-thread and actually i was your "1000+" to attract my attention.

there were three things i wanted to express:

1. my POV, of which i was (and am) sure, that the majority would accept it without a second guess. well, no problem so far...

2. what is so important about this art-thing? we create a little bit, buy a little bit, we look at each other´s images with envy or relief, we´re having a good time with this CG, right? we have a hobby and we enjoy it! isn´t that enough? isn´t it more than most people have? so why do we have to crown ourselves with this word "artist"?

3. we´ve had that theme a 1000+ times already. we know each other´s arguments and we know, that at some point someone gets a bit emotional. deja vu. for me it is like watching the same peanuts-episode again and again.

that´s it, tom!

everything cool?

Andi

rotflmao

remind me not to tell you to be good lol

i used to do the other end of the room that you did. i was a suspended ceiling fixer for a long long time and in many ways a good one was like a work of art. specially if it was a formed ceiling (shaped)  we always wanted the flooring guys to finsh quick so we didn't have to push the scaffold over concrete lmao......they  were always askin to borrow the laser hehe even had a few stepping over the red light when they first came out

billy

I'm was between you both, Taper, drywaller, mr fix everyones screwups, an artist in that alone and the painter gets all the credits. LOL. Almost 30 years till heart attack. Funny how I was called an artist when it came to my renovation designs. Those I did everything, demo,frame, electrical, plum all the way to finished wood work.

I've been called an artist for my music for 40 years yet I see some here will tell you your not anything of the sort if you do something on the computer, let alone with Poser as one of your tools.

The only thing we can agree on. This thread always comes up very often in a year and the same things are said over and over again with no real answer. But it fun to watch and comment once in a while.

I believe an artist is an individual who uses a particular medium to express themselves. There are various different tools that people can use to express ideas, concepts and images and I feel that they are all valid.

Whetther you use that medium to produce good 'art' is a matter of opinion and as such is highly subjective, though it can be very obvious when crap is being produced.

The argument about which package is better etc, or produces better 'art' is one that rages through every area where people undertake an activity that ends with a visual result.

I have been a practicing Martial 'artist'  for 23 years and teaching sword fighting for 13 years the same arguments and opinions rage through that hobby. As a discipline it takes a lifetime to perfect the skills required to use a weapon well, the same can be said for visual meduims too, as david said there is a craft invovled in what we do, which can take a lifetime to learn.

Dont shy away from calling yourself's artists for that is what you are. Whether you produce good 'art' or not that's the real question and of course is a matter of opinion.

NM.

My bad.

I forget sometimes the language difference here,

My apologies to you as well Andi.

beryld
yeah...just like a drywaller..always late.

Those guys were supposed to be outta there weeks before we even set foot on the job...lol

No wonder the painters were always in there with us spilling pant all over out newly laid carpet.  8 )

They were always late from waiting for you guys to finish...lol

I was young when I started my musical career.

Our band was pretty good.

No Fetus could beat-us.

8  )

Tom

Here is a link to a slide show I did of some of the floors we did.

http://www.callawayindustrial.com/flooring_gallery.htm

I live in Mooresville North Carolina (Just outside Charlotte).

Mooresville is known as "Race City USA" because all of the NASCAR teams live here and have their racing shops here.

So a big part of out client base was folks in the NASCAR industry.

You could eat off the shop floors of these guys.

We also did allot of their private Airplane hangers as well.

"Art" does come in many forms

Tom

LOL. those damn tapers eeah. My main trade is taping, thats why I'm so good at doing everything else. The magician of the building industry. Have to fix everyones #ups to get things to look right. LOL Sounds like your dealing with union workers. I think every trade thinks the one before them are out to make them wait. Here up North, weather plays a big part.

I use to have to look after a few sites, rebuilding townhouses. 300 -400 units to a site, You should see how everyone is tripping over everyone.  You learn patience or go crazy.LOL

Those are some cool floors. That is art.

Looked at your floor gallery, hawkfyr.  I reiterate what I said before, ART is a skill taken to absolute perfection!  You have  a skill to be proud of.
David P. Hoadley