Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2659066

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2659066

Considering said site divorced itself from the "otica" sort of thing, and considering said site further sought to silence political threads in the name of trying to appear professional, I have to ask, is this OK with y'all at the helm of this place?
Is this less offensive than, say, a rant opposing terrorism, (or, equally, US politics)?

Hey, IMO, this is more like a fantasy of some introverted teenage, future serial killer, but I guess this is the wave of the future, eh?

What the hell, right? Long as it brings in money, it's cool, I s'pose.

It's ART, Mike... and it facilitates um... more art - art knows no financial boundaries, surely you know that? ~s

that link loaded so slowly (13 kbps or less) that I hadda kill the process, even tho I've got a 6mbps connexion. Is it some kinda b-t-k thing? if so, I'll avoid trying to reload it.

's ok - it's just blood on wimmin - totally normal. ~s

It's right here, miss nancy, on good ol' renderosity. Considering it's in the Product Showcase, it should actually load quicker than this forum. ;) Lots of imagery, though, considering it's a promo, so it might take a bit longer.

Of course, IMO, unless you're into badly beaten/ abused women posing as if there were nothing wrong, you're not missing anything by not waiting for it to load. ;)

Kinda reminds me of the Dean Koontz book,  "Intensity", where the bad guy, a consciousless murderer, was excited mostly by "ruining" that of beauty, particularly, young pretty women.

err, I fail to see an issue here.

The model is simply being stoic in the face of adversity. :)  An admirable trait in a simulated  three d representation .

Those sorts of textures are very useful if trying for a degree of realism in battle scenes , crime pics , etc.

Totally needless for froliking in a field of bunnies of course . For that you need bunnies....and a field ....maybe some flowers....some grass......sunshine....a mild breeze.....

errrr, where was I ?     oh yeah  

bye

Quote - Totally needless for froliking in a field of bunnies of course . For that you need bunnies....and a field ....maybe some flowers....some grass......sunshine....a mild breeze.....

errrr, where was I ?     oh yeah  

bye

A pink pony... a green one... Mr Fluffers... Mr Fluffers' friends... ~s

"Those sorts of textures are very useful if trying for a degree of realism in battle scenes , crime pics , etc."

Of course, were that the intent, perhaps a crime scene, morgue/hospital prop would be included.
I'm kinda thinking this isn't being made for the benefit of the aspiring medical/forensic student.

To be more specific, I'm not arguing the morality of it, but rather, what I see as a duality of acceptability.

of course, i would be more than happy to argue the morality of it, if prompted to do so. ;)

I fail to see the duality. Yes, an artist could make an image depicting torture or other unsavory themes using those textures. And such an image could not be posted here. But as stated above, an artist could also make an image protesting abuse, which is certainly allowable here. In fact, I've seen several gripping images here on 'rosity with such a theme. Nothing wrong there!

So it's very well possible to make an image using this texture set that would perfectly remain within the borders of the TOS. No duality of acceptability as far as I can see.

No, the "duality", or, better yet, hypocrisy, is in the fact that the PTB went way out of their way in the past to stifle subject matter which had far less potential to be offensive, but, apparently now that's OK. Now that there's a profit to be attached to said content, that is.

Back in the good ol' days, the movement to eliminate the Bad Stuff was sold as being a good thing to improve the image of professionalism of the site.

And then, there was the (brief) 'Disneyfication", but which slo-o-o-w-ly gave way to the voluminous hands anxiously holding out credit cards....

The duality is the hypocrisy. The sacrifice of integrity for money. 

It's just a... virtual product brochure to me, not even artsy-fartsy art.   I guess that merchant is now getting more hits at that promo thread, hah hah !!

AFAIK, the bruising, and wound stuff has been sold here for quite some time?

Quote - AFAIK, the bruising, and wound stuff has been sold here for quite some time?

No, actually, it's been slowly seeping in. I might add that you weren't here back in 2000, after the Big Site War, when the new PTB took over, and when we Mods were called upon to scan the voluminous galleries for "offensive" content, and delete at our own discrimination.
Yeah, seriously. Look it up, or ask any number of others who were around at the time.
Much of the stuff which is now encouraged would have been deleted without fanfare back then - no fanfare, no explanation...
But, then again, back then, it wasn't making money. ;)

Also, used to be a "send to renderotica" button or something, for content which was unsuitable for here.

Quote - > Quote - AFAIK, the bruising, and wound stuff has been sold here for quite some time?

No, actually, it's been slowly seeping in. I might add that you weren't here back in 2000, after the Big Site War, when the new PTB took over, and when we Mods were called upon to scan the voluminous galleries for "offensive" content, and delete at our own discrimination.
Yeah, seriously. Look it up, or ask any number of others who were around at the time.
Much of the stuff which is now encouraged would have been deleted without fanfare back then - no fanfare, no explanation...
But, then again, back then, it wasn't making money. ;)

Also, used to be a "send to renderotica" button or something, for content which was unsuitable for here.

Yep, you are right on mike. Nekkid vicky of any kind will sell so its ok.

Free speech doesn't sell most times, so we can't have that.

Free speech doesn't equate freedom to sell - major difference, BDC. And yeah - the PTB used to frown on this - but if you check, rendo has, unlike other brokerages, no aesthetics or moral clause. Hell, anyone visiting the freebie brushdownloads at Adobe, or the freebie action downloads at Adobe can make a product, and they will sell it here. If it's sellable, it can be sold here. ~s

yep look at the "art charts" Partly based on how many times a merchant has their name mentioned in the gallery.

By the way BDC, nothing personal, but I do find your avatar offensive and in bad taste.

@mikej, Is your main concern that this is a texture for a woman or that this texture represents injury? Just as a general thought I don't equate 'injury' to abuse or torture. I've watched many many flicks where the hero was hurt or injured in the course of being a hero (Leeloo Dallas of "The Fifth Element" and Eowyn and Frodo (and a bunch of others) from "The Lord Of The Rings" come quickly to mind). I agree that the texture could be used by those who are bent toward the perverse, but frankly I can't think of anything involved in Poser that couldn't be twisted if desired. I will put forth that I'm glad someone out there is sensitive to the abuse of people - I despise that as well.

I disabled avatars in my options early on, as I found alot of 'em to be boring or offensive. as such, I can't see bdc's avatar, but I support peoples' right to post images they like, as long as I have the option to avoid seeing 'em. I just hope my avatar ain't driving anybody to distraction :lol:

Yes -- I've got the avatars turned off, too.  Because if I didn't -- then I might see something that makes me want to just go.......postal.......

I must say that there's one thing which I absolutely cannot stand -- and that's clowns with rotating flowers on top of their heads.  If I were to ever see such a thing here in the forums......well.......I'll not be held accountable for the consequences.  So forewarned is forearmed.  I think that the underlying phobia goes back to a bad childhood memory, or some such reason.

Good thing that I've got the avatars turned off.  So I should never see anything like that.

It's kind of a mixture of the US shield (with the eagle) covered with some Greek words (which I don't understand), "Success Israel" and a Star of David. BDC has been a staunch supporter of Israel as long as I've known him and he's obviously expressing his continued support. p.s. I'm just hoping my avatar will encourage people to redefine "cute."

Your ava is cute Kev....but ......spooky. {specially when he looks right at you} ROTFL!

{and no, dont change it, Im pickin' }

I just adblock the distracting over-animated ones.  Big overblown sigs get sent to data heaven as well. Keep screen-clutter down say I.

:)

kevin, I support israel too, but I personally would avoid using any political avatars, for obvious reasons. xeno, my apologies for the klown. I know everybody hates him, he's a sort of a target for peoples' anger, but somehow I couldn't resist using him. of course the rotating flower is the pie de ristance, a visual version of the famous squirting flower prank that klowns love to inflict on people :lol:

Don't apologize, Miss Nancy -- I was joking  . I have no problems whatsoever with your clown (klown? -- is that pronounced like "clone"?).  I'm sure that he's a clown that we'd all like to know.  And not a target for any mis-directed hostility.  We get enough of that in the forums already.

BTW -- I'm also a staunch supporter of Israel.......but as they try to steer clear of the political stuff around here: I've (so far) resisted the temptation to create a sig along the lines of BDC's avatar.  Although I confess that I have been tempted.  Strongly.

I like the klown too. I can see how some would see it as disturbing, but I can see how cute little kitty cats could be disturbing. Anything can be (and is) disturbing to someone somewhere. And I avoid political stuff here anymore as well. My favorite forums kept getting closed when we discussed that stuff. KITTENS! ACK! GET THE HAIRBALLS OFF ME! STOP LICKING ME WITH THOSE SCRATCHY TONGUES. KEEP YOUR EVIL CLAWS OUT OF MY LEGS! LEAVE MY TOOTHBRUSH ALONE. AAAARRRRGGGGHHH!

yeah, those danged kitties, always interjecting themselves into things :loL: I'm surprised that legume never did a series with kute kitties here :lol:

Quote - @mikej, Is your main concern that this is a texture for a woman or that this texture represents injury? Just as a general thought I don't equate 'injury' to abuse or torture. I've watched many many flicks where the hero was hurt or injured in the course of being a hero (Leeloo Dallas of "The Fifth Element" and Eowyn and Frodo (and a bunch of others) from "The Lord Of The Rings" come quickly to mind). I agree that the texture could be used by those who are bent toward the perverse, but frankly I can't think of anything involved in Poser that couldn't be twisted if desired. I will put forth that I'm glad someone out there is sensitive to the abuse of people - I despise that as well.

I have to say, interesting derailment that happened here....

My main concern is pretty much what I already typed. It's already there and hasn't been disapeared, so I'm not going to repeat myself.
I don't have any particular aversion to violence in entertaintment such as movies, nor in imagery when it makes sense.   But, consider the promo shots. I look at something like that, and it reminds me of stories of rapists and such who have beat up and mutilated their victims then forced them to pose for pictures for his archives.
In other words, it's the presentation. I see it as unsuitable for here, based on what we've been told over the years.
I don't see it as being conducive to the type of image this site has been trying to maintain, and I see it as a nod toward an attitude of "anything goes, as long as it makes money".

Likje I said, C&D, the OT Forum, The Virtual Tavern, and The Den were all forums which were deleted because they were too controversial...very political and not "nicey-nice" enough. I believe it was alluded to that they detracted from the attempted professionalism of this site; they were percieved as being offensive and had no place here.

Well, it's my opinion that this type of content has no place here, hence my outburst.

And to answer your (sort of) question, yes I am vehemently opposed to violent crime against women in particular, and am just as opposed to the depiction of it in the context of someone's twisted fantasies.
Perhaps such imagerey would not be allowed here, but if it's a product for sale, it's welcomed with open arms.

"But, consider the promo shots... In other words, it's the presentation." OK. That makes sense. When the injuries are displayed along with suggestive garb then it certainly can appear that they are about fullfilling someone's sick fantasies. And I agree that that type of fantasy is certainly against the image Renderosity is trying to project. My first reaction was that the bikinies were the only type of attire that would allow the texture to be seen. However, as I look again I understand your concern better.

There are similar products that have been in the RMP for some time (and even brought back by popular demand -> Wounds & Stitches for PSP).

Your imagining too much into the Promo pics.
Violence isn't the only possible cause of what the product portrays, saying that it doesn't belong because it might be is exactly the same lame argument advanced as a reason for images being pulled from the gallery (see -> this post and a few after it).

Do you want explosion effects removed because they could be associated with terrorism ?

"Wounds & Stitches for PSP" is not the same thing, sorry. (refer to my ending comment in this particular reply)

I'm imagining too much into the promo pics? Well, good for you for discovering that - next time I'll be sure to consult you before I decide to have an opinion on something.

"Violence isn't the only possible cause...blahblahblah"
No, I imagine such a product could be used to depict many things which don't imply something violent happened, like, say, amateur surgery.

Explosion effects - terorism ?  Yeah, good analogy. It shows you've been paying real close attention.

I commented about this in that forum, so I'll just step in to say the same package, with the same wounds was also created for the male version of this program. I don't see you freaking out abused men. And also, they are wearing skimpy clothes because that is what clother does, and they are showing off the product. I would be concerned about the pictures if they showed the models (male or female) dressed in chains and crying. I think Esther made good points about the use of this package, although she was taunted for her "incredible insight". I doubt that her gallery was even looked at before you jumped to conclusions. Doesn't respect for other include accepting others point of view? I had no problems with your opinion, until you insulted somone who was silly enough to disagree with you. Sheesh.

Sarah-still an un-offended formerly abused woman :-)

MikeJ I think your objection to wounds textures could just as easilly apply to naked vickie textures. They are both useful in art for telling a story, although of course some people will use them for porn etc. I understand it is not so much the wounds but the presentation you didn't like, but I agree with whoever it was who pointed out that the maker is also advertising the other clother stuff at the same time so showing it all of at once. Clother doesn't have hospital/morgue props etc. It's just clothing and skin textures. Anway I'm glad I saw those promo pics becaue they show the textures well so you can see whether or not clother would be a useful thing to buy. Like a lot of things available in the world, they can used or misused depending what one wants to do, but you make it sound like the only thing people will want that set for is for sick fantasies and as if it shouldn't be sold here. I find variety of textures and other poser items very useful. From reading all the above posts, some people seem to agree with your point of view, or at least agree that renderosity has been hypocritical, but most people seem to think it is not such a big issues as you made out. Of course you are fully entitled to your (very strongly expressed) opinions. Love esther

In my texture library, I have a LOT of images of various injuries and so on I've made. It doesn't bother me. Though it might have been bad judgement to display those injuries in a way that was so overtly sexual.

Thank you, bone, and I mean no sarcasm whatsoever.

"Bad judgement to display those injuries in a way that was so overtly sexual.", is pretty much the entire basis of my argument, nicely summarized.

I do, however, find it almost kinda disconcerting that some people would rather argue the morality or  significance of it, as opposed to the question of whether or not it's appropriate, but at the same time I guess I have to realize that some of them may not fully realize that such things are in complete opposition to the direction us old-timers were led to believe said site was desiring to be.

Hey, this is the "Community Center" Forum. Those who frequent such a forum ought to know that not all of those of us of The Community agree with the way The Community is being run.; some of us might even question whether there are actual Community people even around....

'specially considering you might get alot of answers to specific questions like, "why don't my browser show titties?", but see how they clam up on subjects such as this. ;)

Quote - 'specially considering you might get alot of answers to specific questions like, "why don't my browser show titties?", but see how they clam up on subjects such as this. ;)

LMAO. This about made me shoot my Rice Krispies out my nose from giggling so hard. 

Sarah

My browser shows titties, but really, newsgroups are so much better.

Have I ever mentioned that Sarah is my favorite name in the world?

OK, well, Sarah, meet bone (not his real name), Ron, meet elzoejam (not her real name)....

Thank God something good finally came of this thread - I almost ran out of material. ;)

LMAO. This is the first time I have been formally introduced to a bone. Do we shake hands now? Er....

Sarah

hand shaking is good lol
Actually, bonestructure is my real life nickname. Comes from a humor magazine I edited many many years ago that was called Daily Bonestructure. Kind of a inside thing among science fiction, fantasy and horror writers, but Stephen King was one of my subscribers, even though I parodied him mercilessly. And it really is true that Sarah is my favorite name. I always felt it was my fate to end up with someone named Sarah. Unfortunately, at this point in my life I'm too old and wore out, sick and ugly to end up with anyone. But io do use the name a lot in writing.

They'll probably lock this thread now, we've wandered off topic and started talking about actually real life stuff.
I did understand your point, though, mike. And agree for the most part. It wasn't the wounds, but the way they were presented. I've also noticed over the last few months that that whole no nudity in the thumbnails thing has gone by the wayside. But you can bet if I presented  a picture of the kind of women I like, small, flat chested, etc. I'd get accused of child porn and it would be deleted. And yes, it's happened before. Evidently those kind of women don't exist in real life. Which makes me wonder about my ex wives, cause if they didn't exist, I'm a deeply sick man lol.

Hi! there Jani, Bob, Pearcy an'awlll...wow! it's been a while... I have to say, what offended me most about the whole thing was the way the images manifest a kitch imagination trying to be raw. I hate being out-aspired by people. Snoggs all round!....Flobby

Flobby!!!!! I've been wondering about you! @Sarah I can't vouch for Bone's ugliness. However, I can also assure you that he's a great writer and his art constantly improves. He's a much more talented artist than I am. He's got opinions but they are pretty well balanced and even in threads where things have been getting rather hot and heavy he's always been a "voice of reason." I've never seen him display indications of too much ego. He's always been willing to work for things - as opposed to some people who simply expect handouts. In other words, his online persona is a real decent guy. Granted, in real he may be different, but having interacted with online him for years (literally) I suspect he's pretty decent in real life as well. He's someone I respect very much! Flobby, on the other hand... [grin]

Wow Brendan...long time no hear from! How you be?

Hey Flobby, Check your email.

Thank you Bobby! I have signed on. See you on the other side. If I can't be a good example?, I will just have to be a horrible warning! :tt2:

Well there's a difference between the 'otica type of thing and the product in question. That difference as 'otica is now finding out, is that they are the type of products that credit card processing companies no longer what to associate with. I suspect that issue had as much, if not more to do with Renderosity removing such products than an attempt to "Disneyfy" the site.

While I do agree that the merchant could use some lessons in creating promo images, I don't believe there was an intent to create a teenage fantasy (although I doubt many teens are sitting around fantasizing about bruised, battered, and bloody women). Part of the problem is the outfits and poses the merchant is using to display the product. Having them dressed in sexy outfits and standing in fashion design poses is certainly the wrong way to go in this instance. The other piece is that they are trying to show every available "brush" on the models. It's certainly commendable taht they want everyone to see everything that's available in the package, but maybe they could have done it a bit more subtley.

If you look at the promos in the marketplace, they are much more appropriate than the ones in the thread. I suspect part of the problem is that merchants don't have to have images approved before they post them in the showcase and there isn't anyone from the marketplace team browsing the Product Showcase Gallery or threads for appropriateness. I see that as an oversight on Renderostiy's part, not hypocrisy.

***edit to add:

Quote - I do, however, find it almost kinda disconcerting that some people would rather argue the morality or  significance of it, as opposed to the question of whether or not it's appropriate,

Well actually Mike, you gave the impression you were arguing the morality and significance of it in your first post:

Quote - Considering said site divorced itself from the "otica" sort of thing, and considering said site further sought to silence political threads in the name of trying to appear professional, I have to ask, is this OK with y'all at the helm of this place?
Is this less offensive than, say, a rant opposing terrorism, (or, equally, US politics)?

You should leave such comparisons out of your concerns. You can raise a flag about the appropriateness of the promo images just as easily without playing the hypocrisy card or bringing up censorship, the OT Forum, The Virtual Tavern, or 'otica.

tainted_heart, I don't know if I could have attempted to make the point I wanted to without bringing up the past history of the site, since my whole point more or less revolved around a former trend which I now see as being reversed, at least to a certain extent.
Not to mention the fact that there are a whole lot of people who might read it and have no idea what I was talking about if at least some mention of the past was brought up.
In the realm of the internet and forums, lots of people come and go, and every one of them has some sort of history. Turns out, this one in particular has a rather complex history, with alot of turmoil which has been covered up, swept under the rug.

I've had a problem for a while with credit card companies deciding they were the moral guardians of the universe. It started when they decided to refuse usage to buy cigarettes on line. Now it's morality. What's next? will they have to approve any purchase you make? Ridiculous.

Quote - I don't know if I could have attempted to make the point I wanted to without bringing up the past history of the site, since my whole point more or less revolved around a former trend which I now see as being reversed, at least to a certain extent.

The site history has little to do with how appropriate the images are, except in the context of what was appropriate then as opposed to what is appropriate now. You're initial post sounded very much like you have a problem with the way the site is being run and you were using the images in question to draw attention to some hypocrisy you see. If you're concerned about those images though, my suggestion would be to message or email ClintH, and point them out to him directly. By the way, zew3d posted the male versions of those images this weekend, are you as "concerned" about those as you were about the originals?

Quote - I do, however, find it almost kinda disconcerting that some people would rather argue the morality or  significance of it, as opposed to the question of whether or not it's appropriate, but at the same time I guess I have to realize that some of them may not fully realize that such things are in complete opposition to the direction us old-timers were led to believe said site was desiring to be.

Well, see, there's the rub Mike. It sounds even more like your issue is that the site went off in a different direction then you ("us old-timers") went along with however many years ago, and you're not happy about that. Times change Mike and things change with it.

The way things were vs the way things are just doesn't seem all that important anymore and all the prosletyzing and debating isn't going to change the "direction" the site is taking. Like it or not Tim and Tammy make the decisions taking into consideration whatever factors they feel are important to the business at any given point in time. That's part of the problem as I see it though, people forget Renderosity is a business and has been for a long time. What makes sense for a non-profit "community" forum may not make sense for a for-profit business. It's pretty easy to be an "armchair general" when you're not sitting in the driver's seat, don't see the business plan, and don't have anything at risk. Sure, it might be fun to debate then and now in the forum, and maybe "stir the pot" a bit, but the reality is that won't change things.

Personally, there are are too many "real world" issues to be concerned about than whether or not Renderosity is going in the same direction they started in years ago, but that's just my opinion.

I especially get a cringing hoot outta the pic where that poor girly mannequin has them awful bruises around her privating areas; and of course it can't be because of anything else other than she's probably been jumpin' up and down on her bicycle way too much and ouched herself.

Of course not.

Quote - err, I fail to see an issue here.

The model is simply being stoic in the face of adversity. :)  An admirable trait in a simulated  three d representation .

Those sorts of textures are very useful if trying for a degree of realism in battle scenes , crime pics , etc.

Totally needless for froliking in a field of bunnies of course . For that you need bunnies....and a field ....maybe some flowers....some grass......sunshine....a mild breeze.....

errrr, where was I ?     oh yeah  

bye

I've got a theory, it could be bunnies...*
*                    *- all pause - * [crickets chirp]

*                   * Bunnies aren't just cute like everybody supposes,
                    They've got them hoppy legs and twitchy little noses.
                    And what's with all the carrots-?
                    What do they need such good eyesight for anywa - y?
                    Bunnies, bunnies it must be bunnies!

Sorry just got reminded of that bunny song from buffy the vampire slayer lol.

Anywho back on topic I think they're quite well done artistically.  I also paint scars, wounds and other disgusting make you go ewww kind of textures and sell them too.  Big crowd for that kind of thing, but how does one fight evil creatures without getting banged up?  It gives a more realistic look to the render if the hero or heroine comes out looking like they need a doctor!  I don't promote violence aqainst women or men, and I can't even step on a bug but that doesn't mean I appreciate art in all forms as long as it's not evil or degrading in nature.   Also they would go really well for horror themes! 

*                *
*                    ...or maybe midgets...