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Subject: FUNK POSER
art deco like all styles has good and bad. to say all art thats any good ie, a masterpiece takes a life time seems condesending to many good pieces of art work. van gogh painted more pieces of art in his last few months than most did in a life time. he also changed his style after talking with monet latrec and gagahn (whos correct way of spelling eludes me. he forsook what he had learned and went down a different path. truth be known he was beyond teaching as far as the academe of art taught. as for the statue of david being photoshot. that isn't what were discussing here. we're discussing taking david and rearranging him to create something new. and some photography i would class as art but thats for another thread. art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course.. lol at deco being a legacey hehe. are you referring to art deco in paint or in general. some of the metal wares done by wmf is astoundingly good for me. i hate it in artwork as it depicts a falsehood of real life but in solid form i love it. some of the work done by the newlyn movement in arts and craft that shifted over to art deco is more for me that just styalized ivy, liberty did some excellent pewter designs. i think we're getting more to taste now than to is poser work art. for me much isn't but now and again i see a piece or two that is and for that purpose alone i can't in all truthfullness say poser work is worth the trouble of looking at.. and if anyon4 is tired of this thread....don't look at it. same advice for those who think the same of poser or any art form.
anyway back to the discussion. i've been on a piece for over a month and it still looks like crap lmao. i don't think real art or that elusive masterpiece takes a lifetime to create. i think some lucky bastards have it within them and carry the capability to let it out. many of the old masters did many what we refer to as masterpieces. some did so at an early age. i will conced it often takes a lifetime to get to a level where one is able to produce a so called masterpiece but again i think they're exceptions to the rule and some are naturally gifted enough to create one without the accompany of age.. thanks for the crosstalk darkskies. nice to have a good discussion whatever i think of art.
billy
Believe it or not, people can and have modelled things inside of Poser. For example, do a search for geep and you will find tutorials for building a complete house inside of Poser, using only Poser. In fact, a user called cherokee69 has built several dwellings purely using Poser after following geep's tutorials ( an example http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2147116 . Utilising the Metaballs python script for Poser ProPack and up allows metaball modelling if you so desired.
However, Poser is being pushed way past was it was originally envisioned for, which was an on-screen artist's version of a wooden mannequin for drawing reference. I would love to be able to do it all in another app, yet despite owning Lighwave, Hexagon2, ZBrush and more, I find modelling just doesn't seem to gel well for me, so I use pre-made content in Poser. If it upsets people, well, I have thick skin :)
As an aside, in your initial post you state how Renderosity has recently become flooded with Poser users. Well, as Renderosity started life as a Poser site several years ago and has slowly expanded to encompass all that's here now, what do you expect?
I for one dont know any artist who uses Poser or Daz studio or Vue or Carrara or Bryce or ...
and claims to be a 3d modeller. Most of them are not even trying to "make it " in any field, for many if not most , its a hobby.
I do model some of my own props , if I cant buy something cheaper than I can make it and I have the time , or If there is absolutely nothing that is close to what the art director or customer has specified.
I used to do a lot of advertising roughtouts, using Poser , because the boss of the company couldnt afford to wait for somebody to model from scratch a human figure , that in the end , looked remarkably like every other human figure.
I churned out about 6 roughouts a day if required. Cant do that from scratch , and I cant say I know any commercial modellers who work from scratch. Everybody I know pulls out "female mesh 01" and starts modifying.
If something is posted in an inappropriate gallery , you can PM the mods and they will move it .
No need to get your knickers in a bunch
and from the number of models that are poser usable i'd say say you're not alone. i would bet most of those who sell models and props in the market place for poser also model in other progs and then make em suitable for sale to poser users. something i'd like to do, not yet good enough though from some of the stuff i've seem in the market i could be kidding myself. some fantastic stuff out there i agree but some complete and utter rubbish too.
sadly i think i got into the 3d thing too late...never mind i do enjoy it and that can be good enough for me lol
billy
@Billy423uk: ...i think i got into the 3d thing too late.......
To become head animator at Pixar, or top rigger at I.L.M. you are probably a little late. The commercial side is full to bursting with young want to be's. It is a very hard field to crack.
On the other hand, if you just want to create for your own pleasure, it is never too late.
I learned 3ds max at 42. Wings and Blender at 44. Silo at 45.
As well as giving MAYA, C4D, RHINO, and VUE a go.
...too late... NEVER
It isn't what were discussing here. we're discussing taking david and rearranging him to create something new. and some photography i would class as art but thats for another thread.
That is a reasonable response the stuff about making chisels is something else entirely.
I am not saying it is not valid I feel that there as a community is a certain lack of respect for the art of modeling and things are treated as if it is their own magic make people button. I also feel as the artist pust more into their work the more it becomes his own. There is a artist that does some really cool surreal stuff in poser he does a lot of postwork adn puts a heck or a lot of effort to make it something new entirely.
There is the bulk who render a woman sans clothing with disturbingly large mammary glands and they get popular. Those who dare say there should be more to art are dismissed as needing some sort of mental help. This is sort of the rendo community thing there are pockets that are different but that is a large part of here. Of course there are other places which have vastly different communities.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
in truth i'd like to model something that's good enough to sell. by the time that happens though i think we'll have programs that generate finished models. we already have to a certain extent with face modeller and creture creator. pretty basic as of yet but they'll get better i'm sure. the figure im doing now will prob take another 3 or 4 months to do. some the modellers i've seen could prob do it in a few weeks and have a better product lol. still i'm not jealous, just wish i'd found 3d three or four yrs ago
billy
Content Advisory! This message contains profanity
The 3d Market is about to be flooded with experienced personnel as well as cheat programs. The artist just need to remember that there is a difference between those who model as "Artist" and those as "Fine Artist". Every tech school out there is offering these degrees now, but, fortunetly for those who have the gift, most people in those degree programs suck ass and don't have a 4th dimensional mind. I say 4th even though its work in 3D, check your theology. The market is growing faster and faster every year, the need for us is increasing, but your either the man or your working for him. We are about to see this market weed out the weak. Its time to know your shit, or get left behind.
Attached Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Deco
Seen a few references to Art Deco in this thread. Does nobody here know what it actually means (see link)?. It was (note `was') a design movement in (mostly) architecture and interiors (the Chrysler building is a good example), nothing to do with the `art' contributors here seem to be talking about.Having said that, the term is misused all over Ebay to describe just about any over-ornamented piece of crap offered for sale :)
stupid me, i was referring to art nouvo and art deco came out. that said i do like some art deco.of course art deco is what you said it is. no wonder darkskies said what he did about it. weird cos i'm a retired antique and collectables dealer lmao. a lot of art decco stuff is at a premium. thanks for pulling me back to reality lol
billy
i'm just trying to model period darkskies
as a fine artist i'd be on par with a neanderthal probably not far of one as a modeller as well.
i am fairly good when it comes to creating things in 3d in the real world though. made stuff in wood and metal that could be classed as art i suppose.if i put up the wip i'm taaking a lifetime to do could you give a fair comment on it for me. not the backslapping kind lol
billy
To get good you will haveto go to somewhere else than renderosity. There is a lot I like about this site but it is not the best site for learning. You need to go whe ethere are some top artists and see what they think of your work you need to go where you will get real constructive criticism.
As far as tiem to make something I do think there are many that could benefit from spending more time on their work . But you have to finish, and I get to a point often where I feel I am polishing a turd. Indecision is one of the things that hold people back. If you get into your art go headlong into it. Have a clear vision of what you want to make. A lot of people spend a lot of time on scenes but a lot of that time is often wasted changing shaders changing the lights here and there moving object from one place to another. If you have a clear vision of what you want you will waste a lot less time on those things which can really eat up your time and make best use of your time.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
at present i doubt what ive done is good enough for any constructive feedback other than don't give up your day job lmao. as can be seen by the wip image pasted, i would love some feedback or comments. i have a thick skin so people can be honest if they have a mind to.
billy
You have some good work there. I think I need to see a wire I can see around the mouth it looks like you did something different so the loops might not be right there.(the corners look like it might be a problem.) Take a closer look at your nose the nostrils are too square and you need to flare them up and out a bit. A trick I do for the eyes that most don't I make the eyes early so I can carfully wrap the eyelids around them. It is a technique that works for me I do not see a lot of people doing that though. Teyon our mod is very good much better than me. He could give soem good pointers.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
If you look again, I was talking about Art Deco, this is the link you gave me...
Art Deco (French: Exposition Internationale des Arts Décoratifs et Industriels Modernes) was a twentieth century movement in the decorative arts, that grew to influence architecture, design, fashion and the visual arts.
And if you go read it again you will see that it didn't die out, if fact to quote again the definition you gave me it came back in the 80's, wow, about the same time computer took off... huh?
Art deco had just as much to do with the advertising of the product just as it did the products them selves. Not to mention all the wannabes like we still see today, throwing thier garbage out there. Art deco has had more of an impact on the art we see today then any other kind. It was an artistic movement that created our "modern" style. The design behind every piece of electronic technology has its roots in Art Deco. Please if you are going to be throwing definitions at me, at least read them first and try to get a few more sources before presenting it. Look again at the last two words in the definition I copied from wiki...
The visual arts are a class of art forms, including painting, sculpture, film, photography, and others, that focus on the creation of works which are primarily visual in nature.
Art deco influenced visual art and its ripple is still effecting us today.
i was actually not talking about deco but yep it was a visual style of design i'd go further than saying its ripple is effecting us today. i think it's still a backbone for many designs of this period re visual style, some one just re classified it as post modern. it's one of the few styles that whilst being referred to as retro is actually still current. that plastic took over from bakelite hasn't changed the style that much. bauh house (sp) is still copied by many in the way they design housing and furniture.
billy
Billy nice topology. You have your verticies too close to each other on the corners of the mouth that is causing the pinching that I see. I think you have a great model to work with the overall flow of the polygons is great so don't ditch it. Just open up the corners of the mouth and then go at the nose. The corners of the mouth are not that sharp so open it up.
I personally think it is a good idea to start with a masculine face. Because it allows you a bit more freedom to exaggerate the features. I tend to do my characters with less realism I find those characters going for total reslism a bit odd. I like things like Shrek and the Incredibles. A bit of style over substance.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
when you say open the corners do you mean spread the vertices in from the corners to the center, i hope so cos i don't want to exaggerate the width of her mouth. will give it a try and see what it looks like thanks. like i say i'm still working on the nose lol, upto now it's had a 100 different shapes but the one i want hehe. i do have a question though....how do i get rid of the light that streams out of her snot holes lol
billy
I say that you need to move your verticies in the corners of the mout aparht on the y axis. thsi way there will be mor eof a curve tehr and no pinching. If you want I can a a paintover on the mesh pic to explain it to you.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
"Please if you are going to be throwing definitions at me, at least read them first and try to get a few more sources before presenting it."
I'm well enough acquainted with the distinct forms, motifs and overall style of Deco not to need to do that. It was a clearly identifiable style, and simply to chuck it in with anything that would be more properly classed as Modernism is to widen the definition so much as to make it useless. Billy mentioned the Bauhaus movement, and it's probably fair to say that that linked Deco to Modernism (not Post Modernism, that's a broader philosophical movement). It's also fair to say that Modernism has strongly influenced industrial design ever since, and more often than not in a debased form.
The (temporary) occurance of Deco pastiche at various more recent times since the 1930s/1940s means nothing -- having fun with retro styles is standard practice where fashion is concerned.
I only brought this up in the first place because I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say "Deco has made it possible for the average joe to spit artwork." Could you give some examples?
Even thought the "Idea" of modernism goes back to the renaissance, I will use that term and movement in the means of which you speak of. Since Art Deco is a sub-catagory of the Modernism ara we should look at the other sub-catagories. My concusion comes from the fact that Art Deco is the oldest form of Modernism (late 1800's - late 1900's), that it influenced and drove the rest like Pop Art, Cubism, Precisionism, Neo-Plasticism, and Minimalism. When I say it made it possible for the average Joe to spit art, I mean; that since the begining of Art Deco in the Modernism ara, anyone can draw a line, throw some paint, place a few squares and all of a sudden they have created a piece of art. Art deco was the beginning of the "simple" ara. If you agree that art drives society then you can't deny the fact that since the birth of art deco, society has been looking for shortcuts. If you go back and look at some of the art that spawned shortly after the beginning of Art Deco, maybe you will be able to see what it is that I am talking about, and maybe you will see why I have come to this conclusion.
Art Deco was a post-WW1 phenomenon, but in any case I'm getting around to thinking it's a red herring here.
The impression I'm getting (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong I don't doubt) is that it's non-representational, or abstract, painting and sculpture that you really mean by `modernism' (since you're going back to the late 1800s), in which case you should blame the invention and increasing use of the camera back then, because that's fundamentally what got artists away from portraits, landscapes and still-life renderings. The only thing that links, say, Mondrian and, for example, Andy Warhol is that neither of them produced representational look-through-the-window pictures.
Funnily enough though, just about ALL the bad art I've ever seen in amateur exhibitions in village halls and hanging on park railings on sunday afternoons has been highly traditional in form.
I don't agree that art drives society, I think it's the other way round. Society doesn't pay much attention to what artists do (except sometimes to point and laugh).
I don't think there's much art on this site, but there's a lot of people having fun and that's fine by me. It isn't the MOMA website and isn't meant to be.
...and I don't use Poser :oD
Not all of us have the skills to model organic characters. But if you were to take a look at my gallery, I don't think you'd argue that I'm not an artist, and a damn good one. I do model, but I just don't do organics well.
And by the way, most poser characters are originally modeled in Max.
Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.
There's also a problem of learning entirely new skills. One of the main problems with using Poser figures in Max is that no matter what you do, you just can't get a realistic pose for the most part. Something always looks off. You can texture a poser model quite well in Max. But the pose always looks artificial. I don't do animation, so I have no clue how to bone a character in Max. That would accomplish a far more realistic pose by using kinematics and muscle physics and all that jazz. But I'd have to take like a year away from what I'm doing now, which is damned good work, just to learn something that wouldn't be of that much benefit to me. I'll doubtless learn to bone and move sometime. Just not now.
Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.
Bonestructure, what you do is posers real intention. You put a lot of effort into modeling rooms scenes etc. So you need to populate your scenes poser is the way todo it. My thing with poser is that most art that is only poser is usually 1 figure that they did not make in a pose. I liek yrou work a lot.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
bonestructure, Model your own, if you took all that time to model your pictures to look as good as they do, don't ruin it by useing poser. Remember this; once you model your own character it is your to use when ever and how ever you want.
And pearce, you brought it up, so take a bit of your own advise.
Not me -- I'm done with it. It just seemed like a good idea, since the topic strayed quite a way from 3D modeling, to get some input from outside this forum, maybe from the 2D members as well, and the Art Theory forum is the obvious choice. Rude, aggressive, confrontational and patronising won't play there any better than here though.
So where do we draw the line between what is from scratch and what isn't? What about programs like XFrog that generate plants? Does setting a few options and letting the computer do all the work qualify as making something from scratch or would models generated by it be considered the work of the programmer who created XFrog? What about writing your own software to generate objects? Does it still qualify if I just set up the framework and let the computer do all the work?
As a pov-ray user (who often wonders why there isn't a pov-ray forum or gallery), I have written (from scratch) several macros to automate creating and uv mapping objects like bricks, chains, cards, trees, grass, simple plants and furniture. I have used 2d paint programs as a basis for generating 3d objects like puzzle pieces. I have even used the render output of 3d raytracers to create models. Do these qualify as my work even though I never once opened any of the objects in a modeller? I don't have the skill required to model many of these by hand, but they were still my creations. I've also used plenty of Poser models right along side of some of these. Even if I had the skill to model people, I couldn't afford the several thousand dollar price tag of 3DS or Maya to rig and pose them.
Granted there are plenty of cookie cutter Poser images that don't really provoke too much thought or emotion, but if Poser is considered by some to be "cheating" (personally, I don't) then wouldn't tools like plant or cloth simulators that don't require very much modelling also be cheating?
"Does setting a few options and letting the computer do all the work qualify as making something from scratch or would models generated by it be considered the work of the programmer who created XFrog? "
Trust me, if you've ever tried using Xfrog, you'd know it's immensely more complex that setting a few options. That sucker is massively hard to use.
Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.
jtm and bonestructure. you ask questions that have different answers depending on who's doing the answering. my personal point of view is this...if you use a tool and create a new never before seen image then it's your creation. now you ask what and how do we difine what a tool is....again from my point of view. ... a tool is something that we use to help us do, make or create something.
is poser a tool...yes...is v3 a tool, debatable lol. i'd say the poser figures are more like stencils. as far as bonestructure is concerned. he make fantastic art with his scens and populates them with poser figures...which add to that art. no foul there then..the same with xfrog stuff. they become a tool for bonestructures art when he manipulates them into how he wants them to look and be dressed and how they interact within his scene. they become part of his creation etc etc. the problem arises when someone pts v3 in an image gives it a preset pose some preset clothes, a preset background and a few preset lights. for me this is when it stops becoming a tool and becomes a prop. on the other hand if someone take the figure and molds it to their own design adds their own images ie; background clothes light setting and postwork etc then it becomes a creation. something gleaned from a persons own imagination.
i know many will disagree with me but thats cool. i understand it's just my opinion and only worthwhile to me lol.
billy
Bonestructure - you're right, I've never used XFrog. I do use pov-tree fairly often and have also written my own macros to create plants and trees when I needed several similar but slightly different models to populate an outdoor scene. The quality probably isn't nearly as good though, lol.
Billy & Bonestructure- I have no problem using poser figures to populate a scene & think bonestructure's work is quite good. I use them myself quite often also. If some people don't like my work because of it, that's fine - it doesn't hurt my feelings at all.
I used to be a frequent contestant in the IRTC & have seen similar debates on Pov-ray vs commercial software like 3DS & Maya. Some said 3DS images should be judged more harshly because it costs several thousand dollars, while some said Pov-ray images were worthless because it doesn't cost thousands of dollars. Personally, I would rather ignore the tools used and focus more on the image.
hi jtm.
thats what i mean about there being more than one answer.. basically i look at a pic or a mdel and i either like it or dislike. i never dislike a pic because of where or how it was made. i have an internal set of standards, likes and dislikes that allow me to judge what i like or dislike. does that make sense lol. in a nutshell i see with my own eyes. one thing i don't do is judge a pic because an app cost more or less. sometimes i may judge a pic because it's been done by a novice and like it more than one thats been done by someone with all the skills. often i can see the improvemnets a novice makes and that for me is worth more than knowing what app they used.i like reading poetry that doesn't have stock phrases and cliche and when i come across one by a novice who realizes what they are and discards their use i'm impressed. the same with 3d art. i'm more impressed withsomeone who discards the presets and takes the thing out of the box in a unique way.jmo
billy
Well I can tell you how I rig and pose. I model the figure into the pose. Grab verticies move them rotate them into position. Loop cut and paste. As long as I am nto animating I realy do nto need to rig a character. I Use Wings 3D I think ou can fidn that in your budget. Ther eis always soem thigns that we automate too much but I look at what is the focus of yrou image? Is it a model soemone else made or is itsoemthignof yrou own creation and the other things are just ther eto fill out and make i tmro eof a whole image. I knwo there are a number of differing opinions.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
I do use Wings occasionally, but I'm nowhere near good enough at it to model people. It took me ages just to figure out how to model liquid that would follow the inside of a glass container without looking too choppy, lol.
I'm still amazed by the detail in your Napolean model, btw Dann-O - nice work!
Yeah I am the master of Typo's. Particularly when the wife tells me to look after the baby calls me away etc. I just hit post and don't proofread.
Napoleon earned me a bit of cash too so it is not all bad. I am still nto that good at anatomy to make naked people mostly because I am not interested in making pictures of naked people. I make them in Clothes so I can't model muscle groups etc like Teyon. But I have been getting better at modeling cloth. Everyone has their streangths. My mechanical skills have nto been getting much practice.
The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the
person next to me.
99 posts already!!! This forum is alive after all... Gonna make it 100; I remember opening Poser for the first time. After some frustrating hours spent in Lightwave, I remember myself saying; what the f*ck; why should I learn to model organic models (people)?, Poser has men, women, boys, girls and props ready-made for me to pose as I wish... The high I was on lasted only briefly, since I soon discovered that the meshes where very dense and they slowed down my LW-Layout (since I wave on a cheap old laptop), and adjusting the shapes prooved nearly impossible. I can live with the fact that many people create nice pics with poser, computers gave us that power, so why not use it? But for me; creating a human figure with the least amount of polys gives way more satisfaction and allows me to make "easy" adjustments wherever I like... Poser (Daz to a certain extend also) can be of great help to people who wanna get "easy" results in a "short" amount of time; give full attention to lighting and posing but not worry about modeling and texturing too much, but some of us want more "creative" input. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people who use Poser are not creative, they create, thereby they are creative, but I guess it all comes down to how much control you want on the stuff you create.
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Art deco's shift is for the easy artist. The shift lost the fact that a masterpiece takes years or a life time to create. Deco has made it possible for the average joe to spit artwork. I can't look at a pictures knowing that it was done in days or hours and have respect for that picture. I may like the way it looks but the respect isn't there. Sure the quick stuff is fun for me too, but its like taking a smoke break. I know there are artist out there that have had an idea in their head for years but never really did anything but a couple sketches, maybe a storyboard. Where are these real artist at? Show me something that at least took 3 months to create, not a couple of hours here and there for three months, but 12 - 22 hour days. All of that for one piece, not all of that for 30 works. Where are you and lets see it?