All they're doing is showing their ignorance.  Not because Poser is so wonderful, but because real artists know the methods and materials don't matter, the product does.  They were laughing because they're technicians, not artists.

look at the work Calum5 produces with poser...... its not the software its how you use it.

Really what it comes down to is knowing what the employer wants.

If the job specifies that for an Administrative assistant position, you need to be an expert in Microsoft Office, then that means that you need to know those applications.

"Oh, well I found a great text editor online that I use that actually lets me...."

That's nice. It's also irrelevant at this point in the process.

While you may be capable of doing good work without that background, that's not what your prospective employer is looking for.

If you are applying for a machinist's position, and they want you to have skills in the most recent build of AutoCAD, then coming to the table with a starship model that you lovingly built in Wings or Truespace is not what you prospective employer is looking for.

What a low end app is for many of these jobs is a kludge- that is, a quick and dirty way to cut corners towards an end.

Is that a bad thing? No. It's like crazy glue or duct tape. Any number of set designers and modelmakers will tell you a few stories about behind the scenes experiences involving duct tape and crazy glue at the last minute.

That said, a kludge is often a solution to an inadequately designed project. This is NOT appealing to a prospective employer. If you are selling yourself as a designer, they want to hear about how you were able to create a fully functional prototype in less than a week using the same state of the art tooling that they've invested hundreds of thousand of dollars in...Not how you had to use Bondo and Elmers glue to get something that looked passable for trade show. The latter story is the one you might share with fellow designers AFTER you get the job.

Showing up unprepared to discuss the employers needs and preferred toolset is doing neither of you any good.

Food for thought.

Keep in mind, and I am speaking from the prospective of having been at Siggraph, The major houses are running Max and Maya. The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya. Some games houses want to see if you can model, texture and animate a figure from the ground up. I overheard the rep from Insomniac Games (Spyro the Dragon) tell a prospective employee just this.

We are talking Sony, Pixar (Who has a plug in for Max and Maya called Renderman), Lucasfilms, THX, Rhythm and Hues, etc...

Poser is a low-end application marketed to the Hobbyist segment ofthe population. Great for image work, but don't expect the studios and games house to take you seriously.

It isn't snobbery. Again another false assertion based on teh fact that the people making it have no clue what the big houses are using. Can you honest to the work that Disney did for "Chronicles of Narnia" in Poser? Disney needed 3 houses to pull this off (Sony Imageworks, ILM and Rhythm and Hues).

And Arcady, You are dead wrong about your assertion about Maya users and Warez. I know someone right now how is busting his arse working just to save up the money to purchase the program. So before you make such an accusation, you might want to think first. I could purchase Maya outright during tax time, should I chose too...

Not all studios use Maya or Max.  That is an assumption.  Not all studios are Pixar or ILM (there are actually studios in other countries, for instance).  Some use Cinema 4D (yes, really), some use LightWave3D, some use Houdini, some use XSI, some use who knows what.  So, your 300 years of Maya experience (which won't hurt), isn't as good as my 10 years of Cinema 4D experience when the studio is using Cinema 4D and looking at applicants.  Here it would come down to skills and quality of work - not toolset.  But there would be more of a leaning toward someone with direct experience rather than side experience.

Yes, you should be aware of what the studio uses prior to the interview - but they should make it clear what they are looking for.  If they don't, it is not the fault of the interviewee that they neglected to provided required information, now is it? ;)  Just because a studio is seeking applicants, my first thought wouldn't be - I must know Maya.  Probably good for most of the industry, but never assume.

For instance, AutoCAD isn't used by all technology companies for design.  I should know - I worked in the field.  There are other CAD systems out there - some 'off the shelf', some proprietary, some in-house.  Even my twenty years of AutoCAD experience won't help if they are using something else.  They either turn to someone who knows the software or invest in my edumacation. :D

Well.

Anyone can knock out a quick render in Poser. No biggie. No huge amount of skill involved.

The DIFFERENCE is doing a render in Poser that stands up next to some of the "Big Names".
It is possible, but it takes a LOT of skill and just as much time, if not more, because you're limited by what Poser can do.
You might end up pulling it into another program to get what you want out of it, but the END result can be as different as night and day.

I tell people I use Poser and they scoff.
Then I point them at my 2D work and they suddenly shut up.

The bias is that if it was done in Poser, it can't be good. They all go very quiet when it IS good.

And BTW - I once browsed a site advertising Maya courses and looked at the student showcases...
One of those showcases featured... V3.
Frankly, even with my limited animation experience I could have done better... in Poser.

yeah, they would be laughing if it was for poser. Are we that in denial that we don't know where the Poser user's place is in the software universe...? If you want to walk into a job interview and mention poser with a serious face, be my guest. I won't lose any sleep over it. A fact is a fact, no matter how you slice it: Poser users are laughed at in the CG world. This isn't my fault, but the truth. Don't shoot the messenger....

Hi everyone,

I use poser myself, and  i do agree it is primitive compaired to what other programs can do. Slowly i'm getting annoyed with posers limitations so i'm trying to move on and learn Vue, and Bryce (still afraid), so i can move with the times. I want to show i'm a dynamic digital artist, not just a poser artist, and photomanipulator if you get me. Its all about self-growth...and also whether you have the pennies to buy the software.

I know at the end of the day what you create at the end result is all that matters, but some people do not see it this way do they? i agree why the interviewers laughed but i can understand their POV. If i was to have two different people that i had to interview that produced artwork/animations both of the same excellent looks, id still employ the person using the better software as they dont have limitations hanging over their heads which the older software can entail...... I'm sorry if i aint explaining myself well, but anyway...

Cheers

Anna

Wet on wet, also called: A la primá!  To compare that technique with painting by numbers is almost blasphemy! A la primá demands total attention and control from the artist !

/ Cheers

Quote - Slowly i'm getting annoyed with posers limitations so i'm trying to move on and learn Vue, and Bryce (still afraid), so i can move with the times.

Anna, I hate to tell you, but Vue and Bryce fall into the same category as Poser.

If you were to tell someone you use Bryce or Vue, you'd get the exact same reaction from Maya, Lightwave, 3DMax users.

I do find it pretty interesting that it seems okay to buy meshes for Maya and render with those models (do NOT try to tell me that every Maya user models every mesh in their scenes themselves because that's simply not true) and with bought / freebie textures... and say it's "Professional" but if I do the same thing in Poser - it's not.

I can turn out a pretty basic Maya render and make it look half way decent. (Well I could, but I don't have the student version installed anymore). I could do the same thing with Lightwave or 3DMax.
And if I said it was done in Max, no one would quibble about it, regardless where the model came from.
Fact is, I can turn out better looking 2D Renders with Poser, because I know Poser a lot better than I do any of the others.
Those who can use Maya/LW/Max to turn out spectacular things - great. You have superior skills to me IN THOSE PROGRAMS. I probably have superior skills in Poser to someone who is used to Maya. They won't be able to do what I do, just like I can't do what they do.

But alas... Poser users are the inferior species.

I did a search for some Maya stuff of hobbyists -

http://www.walkondown.com/sculpture/gazelle.htm

and for poser

http://www.teknoresoinfo.com/megatron/Mmix/img6.gif

It all depends on the USER of the program and their skill level. It doesn't matter which software you use, if the end result is what you wanted to achieve.
But no, the CG Community will always pat a very basic Maya user on the back when he/she/it renders a freebie model, while saying that there is a button in Poser to "Make Art".
There is a lack of understanding that it takes no skill to produce rubbish in EITHER software package, but if you want to produce something good... it takes skill, regardless of which program you choose.

I can very easily say "Sure I use Maya" but the fact is, I can't produce anything near as good as I can in Poser - because I don't have the skill to do it... in Maya. I could learn, but Poser is just fine and dandy for what I do. There is no point belittling the fact that someone uses Poser to create stunning images, just as there is no point praising someone who uses Maya to produce rubbish.

Just to clarify - Maya / Max can do much MUCH more than Poser, that is a given. But only in the right hands. Most of the actual snobs out there who wrinkle their noses at Poser users do not fall into the "right hands" category. In fact, a friend of a friend is an animator, using Maya. We met at a party and got chatting. Funny, he wasn't belittling Poser at all. He said if the tool produces what you want - go for it. That to achieve the look and feel of Maya animation involves a LOT of very expensive plugins, massive manpower and a huge amount of expertise. He Animates. He does not texture. He said he couldn't texture worth squat, but he can animate with the best of them.

So there you have it. The really really GOOD stuff Maya can do - is very rarely done by one person. Most people simply do not have that kind of skill on all levels.

Oh i know what you're saying.... I'm just trying to work through programs one at a time until i reach the more complex ones like maya....

See i get good results in poser, and i'm not being big headed when i say this, because i know my work is good as is my partners, but when i go into vue and try in there...man you should see how crap my work looks lol... It looks like ive never done anything digitally before in my life lol. shakes head

That's the problem though, even though i do good stuff in poser from time to time its still frowned upon regardless. I just want to prove I can work in other programs instead of having stigmas attached to me...

Take Care,

Anna

quote:  The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya. Some games houses want to see if you can model, texture and animate a figure from the ground up. I overheard the rep from Insomniac Games

Actually, ILM used a good bit of zbrush for their textures, displacements, etc.  I think it is also important to keep up with the way the wind blows.  I've had zbrush for years, used it for textures....all of a sudden, everyone is realizing what a great app it is with its abilities to do displacement mapping for lower res objects.  Mudbox and Modo are 2 more up and coming apps.  Guess what I'm saying is simply....even if you are proficient with a higher end program, one must keep on the cutting edge to stay afloat.  I've got a Product Design studio who wants extensive work in zbrush over the next few months....and they want high poly, as well, since they have machines that can handle that stuff. 

Poser is kind of a get your feet wet, starting off program.  I think to be good in anything, you must push your limits.

poser is all well and good but you wouldn't expect someone to race a pushbike in a formula one race would you. sorry folks but the truth is poser can't do more than a gnats bollock of what the high end apps do. you may get a good render after days of work a render that may even come up to par with an high end app. the difference would be the high end app would come up with it faster. and whilst most who use high end apps may not not be good modelers that wouldn't come in to it. they wouldn't get the job either or hold on to it if they sucked. to the person who said if you have an high end app you stole it.  i have max 8 bought and paid for by my family as a present. i would have prefered an old sports car but its what they got me. i suspect if what you say is only partially true then most of the poser programs people are using are also warez.. (and no, just because i have max doesn't mean i can model well, i can't lol.) i would presume people who use wares don't just use high end wares. i would also presume that a lot of what people use in poser is also warez if what you say is true. and think of this. maya or max...ex thousands of  dollars ......50 gigs of poser stuff..including the freestuff.....three times as much. by your reckoning the people that have spent over 4000 dollars on poser goodies really haven't, theyre all warez users. basically you're calling all those who use high end programs in rendo thieves.

any way, back to the thread.....it was and is wrong of anyone to ridicule a prospective employee. that shows their shallowness. it's als; wrong to think that because you use poser you should be automatically qualified for a job in cg. and whilst you may be good or think you're good, you're chances of getting an industry standard job without any knowledge of industry standard tools is almost zilch. it like applying for a job as an art restorer with a resume that has the only skills you have listed as ...i'm an experienced etch-a-sketcher.  there are too many people out thier who have usee and learned maya, max and other high end apps in college to warrent a cg employer picking someopne who just uses pose. and btw. you can get an educational version of the high end apps for a fraction of the cost. many also go into cg from college with a little app experience and get in house training as to that places workflow. to teach that workflow to a poser user who has no knowledge to start with would not only be unviable financially ,it would also be a time waster.

of course they're biased against poser would you be any different in there place? jmo

billy

Quote - The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya.

Vue was also used, see -> http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/press_materials/?page=..%2FPRIndex&date=August%201,%202006

Looking at games like Oblivion and Sims 2 you can see that Poser is more like game that isn't up to date than a full blown app. The variety of characters that these games including animals like cats and dogs is incredible. It is far better than what Poser comes with. Anyhow, when a model has not been made for poser what do you tell your boss? "We can't go on with the project. Not until someone makes the model and rigs it for poser. And then will have to wait for support by the vendors" I think vue was used as a plugin for maya for that movie, if not, it was still only used for some backround trees. Without knowing Maya you would not get the job in the 1st place.

Bullocks!  Bullocks!  and more Bullocks!!!

I know PROFESSIONALS (on CGTalk and here on Renderosity even) who don't know squat about Maya - but they know Cinema 4D and do work in studios.  Maya is not the benchmark by which all studios work.  Just give it up!

Maya is big in studios - yes.  It is and was designed to be a studio 3D CG solution.  But, uh, there are more of them these days than you can count (Houdini, XSI, Cinema 4D, LightWave3D, are just the short list of 3D applications in use in studios).

The film short that won the George Lucas Select and Audience Choice awards for Star Wars Fan Films this year used Cinema 4D for its 3D CG.  Search on "Pitching Lucas".

I would hope to never have to learn Maya to do the work towards which I'm directing my endeavors.  As someone else noted - work in studios is piece-mealed out to modelers, texturers, riggers, animators, sequencers, background designers, renderers, and so on.  And Maya ISN'T (in almost all cases) the only 3D application used to do most of these.  You'll find either DeepUV or BodyPaint3D being used for mapping and texturing models - in almost every case - no Maya in sight.

Sorry to be confrontational - but stop perpetuating myths.

 Maya is not the benchmark by which all studios work.  Just give it up!

who said it was? i said that in the main the industry sandards are high end apps wich include maya max and others. and if you ran a cg house and hired someone who only knew poser you wouldn't be very good at your job. you need to stop perpetuating the myth that being able to use poser will get you a job in cg. it may get you a little work on the side but it won't get you a job with a reputable studio. the thread isn't about hiring work out to riggers etc, it's about getting a job in a cg house or studio. and while you say for many studio maya or max etc isn't the only program they use. you youi don't say they don't use it at all. if you run a studio that does use a high end app as well as some low end ones, you don't set your bench mark for hiring as the low end app. (unless your a fool)  its usually,...experienced in maya or max with a working knowledge of vue, deepuv,lw etc. i doubt someone who only ever worked in maya would get a job either. except as a modeller. too many people know to many apps to pick someone who just knows poser and lets say bryce.

most good modellers who use maya or max could work efficiently in either after a week or two and probably already know how to get around many other apps. that cant be said of most poser users. unless of course you disagree. people who use max or maya have usually used a number of apps including low end ones. many progressed to the high end apps from using low end apps. often including poser.

we're not talking about hobbyist here who sell and make money through poser items we're talking about bona fide skilled trades people and people who have gone to college to become a skilled tradesperson in a given field. at the beginning when the industry was young you may have got away with knowing a bit of this or that and riding the seat of your pants but you wont do it now unless you work for yourself.. and i admit some skilled trades people may make cash through poser.

so i say to you....just give it up...no i won't cos thats a purile statement. and sorry but you don't sound confrontational you sound like  you're living in an alternate reality. to get work in a cg house or studio you need  to have what they need. they don't need poser. to imply they do is a real perpetuation of a myth

billy

K was replying to that Cobra Eye dude Billy - don't take personal now y'hear!

The use of Vue Infinite in Pirates 2 was pretty interesting - I guess that landscaping function (can't recall the actual name) really was a kick-arse new bullet point...

I think you'll see more Hi-End professionals using low-end apps where they suit a given task - but I agree that you'll more likely get the Pro jobs by being a proven user of a Pro app in the first place.

But the big guys are good with their new generation of full-functioning demos so it's easy enough to try them out over a summer and see which one you like best (if you're planning to go Pro).

Cheers

i'm not takin it personal bjobbie lol, merely repling to a post in the fashion a post was given.

and i think the backgrounds from vue were more than just a plugin. id say it was used extensively for the particular aspect of creating scenery. like i said , i also think most pro's know their way around the low end apps as well as the high end ones. i'd suspect they even use some of the low end stuff like a writer uses a note pad. once they have an idea formulated in the low end prog they'd then go to the high end app to do the modelling and texturing and rigging etc etc. i don't think people in general are saying low end apps don't have their place in cg, i know i'm not.  i'm just stating you can't make a gold coin out of lead.i think it's got to the stage now where if you want to go pro you either get some form of education behind you in cg or go it on your own. not being good enough i won't be taking either route lol.

billy

I've tried and modelled stuff in Max, LW and Hex2 - I seem to have the ability to knock out nice basic designs/concepts - but man the UV mapping has killed me every time - and there's always a few nasty poly-crunches here and there. If anyone wants to be a Pro L33t texturer, I'd suggest following others advice and get Zbrush (keep an eye on Mudbox which is supposed to be better for beginners despite being pro-built) or BodyPaint(?) - any stable programme that allows you to paint/drag textures directly onto the model in realtime and give you the full range of mapping choices (LW's in particular was insanely bad with version 7.5).

I totally understand why production houses break up the skill sets along the pipeline - very rare to get someone like Stonemason who's good at everything (shakes fist at New Zealand - what do they put in the sheep down there? Lamb Chops must be the reason!).

Cheers

If anyone wants to be a Pro L33t texturer, I'd suggest following others advice and get Zbrush (keep an eye on Mudbox which is supposed to be better for beginners despite being pro-built)

YUP

A day late and a dollar short.

I started using Poser 3 in 1998 and I'm currently learning Maya. As mentioned Poser is good for what it does but has obvious shortcomings, as observed by the several complaints listed in the forum daily. I am constantly amazed by what Maya can do and I also enjoy the "instant gratification" that Poser offers. Both Poser and Maya are nothing more than tools, and I believe that an expert Poser user with time can be come a formidable Maya artist.

Everyone talks about the big apps that studios use but why do they use them? I believe this is the key to understanding the "snobbery" you experienced during your interview.

The reason why studios use Maya is because no other package is as extensible as Maya (perhaps SoftImage is but I've never used it so I can't say). If Maya doesn't have a function that you need, you can create it. Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed to be as specialized as you need it to be. My Maya and John Doe's Maya may have come from the same place but are completely different, customized apps due to our workflow issues. And of course Maya, using Mental Ray (which some consider to be the world's most physically accurate render engine) or Renderman (production proven for several Hollywood films) can render millions of polygons, which sadly, Poser / Firefly cannot touch. Two fully clothed and hair-ed V3s will crash Poser like a drunk driver.

I'm really sorry that you've been offended by the "high-enders" but I think their snobbery is somewhat justified.

I'd say it's about the attitude of the employer and their needs. The kid who loves working on hot rods and is great at it can probably make a good jet engine mechanic as well, yada yada. Some employers are more concerned with raw talent and aptitude than a tool specific skill. They figure they can teach you to use their tool but they can't teach talent. They'd probably want to see what you can do in Poser, even if they don't use it themselves. Others are going to be the opposite - maybe they don't have time to teach the tools or they just don't want to. Some people are probably going to tune you out as soon as you mention Poser but I don't think I'd necessarily want them recruiting for me.

Whoa, there's restiction on the amount of time you can edit you post. So some information has been re-presented. Apologies for redudancies.

I started using Poser 3 in 1998 and I'm currently learning Maya. As mentioned Poser is good for what it does but has obvious shortcomings, as observed by the several complaints listed in the forum daily. I am constantly amazed by what Maya can do and I also enjoy the "instant gratification" that Poser offers. But both Poser and Maya are nothing more than tools, and I believe that an expert Poser user with time can be come a formidable Maya artist, if they are willing to invest the time.

Everyone talks about the big apps that studios use but why do they use them? I believe this is the key to understanding the "snobbery" you experienced during your interview.

The reason why studios use Maya is because no other package is as extensible as Maya (perhaps SoftImage is but I've never used it so I can't say). If Maya doesn't have a function that you need, you just create it.  True, Poser has Python scripting, but I don't believe it's nearly as integrated into Poser as MEL is into Maya - in fact every Maya function and command is a MEL action. Also Maya's script editor offers history, instant feedback and debugging capabilities. Maya: 1, Poser: 0.

Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed from the ground up to be as specialized as you need it to be. Let me repeat that for clarity. Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed from the ground up to be as specialized as you need it to be. My Maya and John Doe's Maya may have come from the same place (or source code) but are completely different, customized apps due to our workflow issues. Maya: 2, Poser: 0.

 And of course Maya, using Mental Ray (which some consider to be the world's most physically accurate render engine) or Renderman (production proven for scene weight and speed for several Hollywood films) can render millions of polygons or NURBS / SubDs respectively, which sadly, Poser / Firefly cannot touch. Two fully clothed and hair-ed V3s will crash Poser like a drunk driver. But how many Poser artist fully clothe their V3s?  Maya: 3, Poser: 0.

All of Maya's power comes with a price - learning Maya's eight modules (in the case of Maya Unlimited), which is daunting. I have found that once you "wrap your head around" the way Maya works (which takes very little time once you forget everything you ever learned), most of learning Maya involves exploring the thousands of options available for creating something as simple as a sphere for example. The funny thing is that I find myself using Maya keystrokes in both Poser and Vue 5 Infinite, so I guess I'm biased. Maya: 4 for flexibilty, Poser: 1 for ease.

So I'm really sorry that you've been offended by the "high-enders" but I think their snobbery is somewhat justified.

Quote - I do find it pretty interesting that it seems okay to buy meshes for Maya and render with those models (do NOT try to tell me that every Maya user models every mesh in their scenes themselves because that's simply not true) and with bought / freebie textures... and say it's "Professional" but if I do the same thing in Poser - it's not.

I can turn out a pretty basic Maya render and make it look half way decent. (Well I could, but I don't have the student version installed anymore). I could do the same thing with Lightwave or 3DMax.
And if I said it was done in Max, no one would quibble about it, regardless where the model came from.

Not entirely true.  Try posting a Max or Maya-rendered stock Turbosquid figure that is highly recognizable, like Masha or whatever, on CGTalk.  Then post the wires for it, etc., and don't mention you used a stock figure, as if you did everything yourself.  After the 3rd page or so of "good job man" replies, SOMEONE with a good eye will out you, and you'll be roasted for not mentioning you used a stock figure.

Point being,  many hi-end users consider 3D to be a multi-faceted artistic discipline in and of itself; starting with the modeling, lighting, texturing, and finally the render (more of a technical director's forte).  Sure, if you work in a big studio you'll probably be assigned to working on a specific aspect of 3D for certain projects (depending on the strength of whatever discipline you may excel at), but most pros are very well-rounded in all the aspects of the art, and often get hired based on a demo reel that shows off their strengths first and foremost, but also shows they can do just about anything at least decently.  Sometimes studios will have someone who is excellent at modelling learn ON SITE to do texturing for a specific project.  The reason Poser is frowned upon specifically, is because it leaves out several basic elements of the overall 3D experience for the user, in order to simplify the process of creating a render.  That's not necessarily a bad thing for the casual user, but if you're a person who's into 3D as it's own kind of artform, or as a serious business, then you might consider Poser a way to "cut corners", and have contempt for it.

You'll find this kind of thing in a lot of skill-oriented disciplines too...  like masonry, carpentry, etc.  I know a certain housing development where you can't buy land if you're going to put a modular home on it, because it's an area reserved for high-priced "stick-built" homes only (homes that are built "on site" from the foundation up).  I know some of the people who live there feel a modular home will depreciate their property value, among other reasons.  This despite the fact that today's modular (not mobile, mind you) homes can be just as fantastic looking and "up to code" as any home that's built from the ground up.

Of course they laughed at you. Poser isn't 3D modeling at all.... it's not even close to 3d modeling. Poser isn't called Poser for no reason..... You can pose pre-made content in it, but you can model in it at all.

I don't even see the point why people even compare Poser to 3D modeling applications. There is no comparisment at all. Even the whole high-end low-end users comparisment makes no sense. Poser users are not 3D modelers at all. If someone shows me his work and says he modeled it with Poser, I laugh. As if Poser could be considered modeling.

If you look at it this way, you will not get annoyed. Poser isn't modeling and modeling isn't posing.

I love using Poser and it has it's excellent uses. I love modeling for my 3D games, don't use Poser for that at all. But I never compare my modeling to my work in Poser.

Someone using Poser is just a 3D application user, anyone (even my 7 year old daughter) can use Poser, no skills required. Modeling is something else.... skill are required and to create a good character or item, lot's of skill. Someone knowing how to do that may laugh about Poser, since to him/her Poser is just a toy.

So grow up and realize compared to Maya and so on, you're just using a mere toy.

Also stop  making the prize comparisment, it makes no sense..... Maya costs $2000, Poser only $249, but that's not the end of it. If you really want to make good use of Poser you're going to need $2000 or more, you might as well have bought Maya. But then again, buying Maya wouldn't be of use to a lot of the people around here, they can't do anything with it at all. It requires skills and insight, which most Poser users lack.

Poser is a toy..... dress up some dolls and render them. Very cool, very time saving, but not the real thing.

high end apps can and do pose figures.

and sorry but the good poser users do need skill. it takes skill to do anything well. though i think a lot of poser art is dull i would never laugh at it or those who use it. some do excellent work with it.

i've no doubt if some poser users got their hands on 3d max they'd be a lot better at it than i am.

billy