Is it just me or is there something really strange going on with all the V4's with reddish-brown eyebrows and black hair?

Since there is no separate eyebrow material I really hope texture makers will give us a variety of eyebrow colours whether in .psd format or some other way as I'd like to be able to use a given texture with various hair colours.  I suppose I could just clone them out and replace with my own but it would be nice to have a quick and simple solution.

You can just find out what .jpg file is being used in Materials room and edit a copy in Gimp or Photoshop and change the color I suppose...  I've done that for V3 in several cases, I don't see why V4 would be any different, it looks to me like eyebrow color is coming from the base texture.

Well, actually what I meant to say was that she doesn't have a separate eyebrow material like V3 so we can just recolor and use a transmap on.  I never did like painted eyebrows on V3.

I know about editing existing textures, I just want a shortcut :)

There should be displacement maps so you might be able to take them in and use Math Node stuff in P6 to change it where the displacement is but I am not positive how easy it would be. I tried to get them to change it but it didn't work so well.

Thanks for the suggestion Ghostofmacbeth, I'll have to play around in the material room.   I do have a method for changing hair hues like that but it does rely on a material node, I'll have to see how I can work with the displacement for eyebrows only plugged in since there is no separate material for the brows.

I remember Traveler had made eyebrow props for Posette waaaay back.   A pair of morphable transmapped eyebrows would be a great add-on for V4!

12/8/06

Maybe ZEW3D will update masker and one can have sets of eyebrows to apply at will.

LMK

Maybe, but I don't fancy having to buy another product just to change eyebrow colour when it was so simple with V1, V2 and V3.  

The overhead and invested resources involved in transmapped eyebrows FAR outweighs thier usefulness, IMHO, an dI fought like th edickens to keep transmapped eyebrow mesh in there, until I read quite a number of arguments against them.

12/8/06

Gareee:

Okay, but, what is the alternative?

LMK

Here's the tutorial link I used to learn the method...

http://www.quinlor.de/tutorials/tattoo.html

V3 was a marked improvement over V2 hands down and I was thrilled from the first render.
Right now,  I'm finding more I don't like about V4, to me this is definitely a big negative.

When you look at the memory involved in including the eyebrow geometry in all the headmorphs, and the issues it's created for all the various morph combinations out there, this method really is the best.

I HATED they were going to do this, until I read more comments about why it's superior. I 100% prefer this method over the geometry based method.

Also keep in mind the same tutorial link I posted can also be applied to simple things like stubble, tattoos, and facial hair.

12/8/06

"Also keep in mind the same tutorial link I posted can also be applied to simple things like stubble, tattoos, and facial hair."

And to fix nostil glow (why not a set of eyebrows with nostril masks together).

LMK

Actually in P6+ you just turn on AO in your main area light, and say goodbye to nostril glow!

Quote - Actually in P6+ you just turn on AO in your main area light, and say goodbye to nostril glow!

 
Just turn it on? I'll try it, :) best tip i've seen that requires no complex fiddling

I really do hope some amazing user in the community comes up with some sort of python script or SOMETHING to make the eyebrows change color and solve this issue... one thing about our community...we have been "fixing" poser and it's related parts for years!

I have already asked a couple of creators about this... but as I said at the DAZ thread:

"Thank you, DAZ for saving me $$ on a new character library".... becaue I am NOT going to invest in a lot of character HIGH RES maps only to have to "fix" hairs on the HIGH RES face.... !

Think of the folks that DON'T use any paint programs but enjoy Poser figures.... gee whiz, it's cutting the market for V4 way down! ?!?!

SOooo here is a BIG SHOUT OUT... HELP FOR V4 EYEBROWS FOLKS... !! INVENT SOMETHING TO SAVE THIS OTHERWISE GREAT NEW MODEL!!!...

Lyne, as I already mentioned over there, the solution for texture artists is very simple, but I don't think they can accomodate you in 4 minutes flat.

That is a really concise and helpful tutorial Gareee, thanks.

gareee - light ao is really not a very good solution.  material ibl is best.  and really, the settings for nostrils shouldn't necessarily be the same as for, say, cheeks.

and like i said over at daz, i don't see why someone with the base textures and resources to make them (as the creators have) couldn't make a solution in at most 3 hours.

Garee:

As I said at the Daz forums, the problem is not how do we add our own eyebrow textures, the problem is how do we first remove the ones that the texture maker put directly onto the map because they didn't have another place to put it?

I can add my own, I can add tattoos, but how do I remove the wrong colored and sized one first, without blurring the texture?

Anyone know how the G2 figures from eFrontier handle this same issue?

I'll wait for the new P7 figures before I jump on this little V4 bandwagon, from the initial WooHoo type threads, we're getting a few doubters now!!
My P7 should land any day after Monday [hopefully], I'll use V3 till then!!

Quote - When you look at the memory involved in including the eyebrow geometry in all the headmorphs, and the issues it's created for all the various morph combinations out there, this method really is the best.

I HATED they were going to do this, until I read more comments about why it's superior. I 100% prefer this method over the geometry based method.

Also keep in mind the same tutorial link I posted can also be applied to simple things like stubble, tattoos, and facial hair.

I didn't see the thread you're referring to, but I'd certainly argue the flip-side of this argument...

When you look at the overhead of a 'face-texture-sized' texture map, just to color a few pixels in the brow area, that far outweighs a few polygons as far as memory requirements go.  I'd argue that Geometry is clearly superior - For both ease-of-use, as well as memory requirements (additional memory for brow geometry morphs is not even needed at all for lip/phoneme and most nose morphs, where the brows are not affected).  So I guess I'd 100% disagree :).

...of course you can use a smaller texture (with some offseting) instead of a face-sized texture, but I'd still argue the end-user ease-of-use issue, and personally would consider the memory issue moot (if it exists at all).

12/8/06

I just used the cloning tool in Paint shop to brush away the bushy eyebrow on a freckled male head. It took three minutes per eyebrow.

No, I don't want to erase the eybrows from every texture I have, but I could do so easily if I needed to. I would be a lot more willing if an innovative content provider provided me with the eyebrows to apply. I have thought that things like body hair, scars, and tattoos should have been provided this way a long time ago. One could put beards, eyebrows, skullcaps, makeup, and a lot more on using the method Gareee pointed us to.

This could be a whole new area for content providers to exploit.

LMK

That I believe was the actual intent Daz had for the brows.. for content providers to supply them NOT on the textures themselves, but node based, and on separate maps.

My guess (and this is JUST a guess) is that Daz swa the P7 Monday download thing, and were worried that Syndey's free inclsion might dampen V4's launch, so they jumped the shark and kicked her out the door without double checking everything.

Great example: While there is a large number of V4 release items, how many are actual Participating Artist releases? ONE. You don't think PAs have been working like crazy to create items for V4?

I'd say before whipping yourself in a furor, wait until next friday, and then assess the V4 product availability and issue/option thing.

12/9/06

Gareee:

Is there a node method to apply different displacement maps to different textures? If not Poser needs Bump and Displacement nodes, not just channels.

LMK

lkendall - blender, math and color math nodes can combine any two textures in poser.  but it would probably be best for eyebrows to have custom bump and displacement maps rather than a single mask map to use everywhere.

Gareee:

I would actually be with you and for this new method if I had faith in texture makers to leave brows off of maps. But I've had that argument with a texture maker before - and (s)he just kept noting that it was too hard with a photo reference to do it...

Of course, the issue we now have with V4 is the same issue we have had with V1-3. But with V1-3 it was solely lazy texture makers who were to blame. Now those lazy texture makers can point to the lack of a transmap and say they are doing it right.

But... the above said, there is a further issue. I believe I am not far off when I say close to half of the community renders in Vue, Bryce, or Carrara - and this new situation complicates that. Unless fixes can be achieved for all of Bryce, Daz, Carrara, Vue, and Poser - the worst result is what will result - laziness and complacency will take hold and texture makers will just say it is too hard to support doing it right, and won't pre-warn buyers that they did it wrong...

I have copied this thread off to a texturemaker' yahoo group:
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/texturemakers/

In the hopes of raising awareness, though I expect they will not like what I've just posted in this post - dislike of me should not be an excuse to not addressing the issue. :)

The issue with Vue is probably non existant with the 6.xx cycle, since they use and rely on poser's material room, and node setups.

Since Bryce relys on Daz Studio, I'm sure daz has a trick or two up it's sleeve to handle this issue we haven't seen yet.

What'll happen is texurists that do it "right" will get the money and support of the customer base, and the rest will either learn to do it right, or face diminishing sales.

We've all seen conent creators come and go, because of lack of quality in their products, and this will just shake them out further.

i somehow doubt that the standard set by daz and sarsa (see the new merchant resource kit in the daz store) will be found as beneath marketability.   especially when the resource kit is explicitly the basis for future products.

I just posted this in the "eyebrow thread" at DAZ:

WAIT A MINUTE.....

I have admitted to having dyslexia.... and what struck me FIRST when all the V4 products hit the market was the MORE OFTEN THAN NOT: RED-ISH EYEBROWS.... so my reaction started up about the color of brows....and I joined in this thread.... somewhere in this mix of EXPECTING HIGH RES close up to show skin flaws, etc.... added to the "eyebrow issue".... and suddenly as a user I WANTED ALL COLORS OF BROWS FOR ONE CHARACTER SO I COULD HAVE HER WEAR ANY HAIR COLOR....

But...I will be the first one to say I think my brain went sideways on this issue.... other than asking texture folks not to ALL do "reddish" brows.... (and there is one gal here who is trying to do more neutral brows to match more hairs).... I WENT AND LOOKED AT A FEW OF MY MANY MANY V3 texture maps.... and uh.... RED FACE.... EACH ONE HAS IT'S OWN BROW COLOR (PAINTED ON I ASSUME, as I look at the head maps)..... and for all these years I have used them... picking a color of hair that would look best for the COMPLEXION and ethnicity of that character I bought..... without a second thought.... for example if I want an oriental character...her brows are pretty much going to be dark/black and I would be using black hair on her....blond Swedish looking girl... blond brows... blond hair.... EEEGADS!!!

IS THIS MUCH ADO ABOUT NOTHING?? OR AM I TRULY MISSING WHAT IS DIFFERENT ABOUT V4'S STRUCTURE AND UV'S?????

I WOULD BE THE FIRST TO APOLOGIZE FOR MY CONFUSION AND FUSSING OVER THIS.... AND AM IN FACT DOING THAT IN A WAY... IF INDEED I JUMPED ON A BANDWAGON AND THAT WAGON IS REALLY JUST AN EMPTY ONE....???

While I am still now CONFUSED.... What WAS different about V3's (or A3's etc.) brows that is now so different about V4's????  What were the PA's having big discussions about? What IS IT about this figure that makes the brows a problem???

sits, hands folded in lap, head a bit down, waiting for someone to explain the REALITY of it all.....and quietly thinking how GLAD I am that I did buy V4

Lyne

It's not a new issue with V4, it is a long standing issue.

V4's lack of an ability to apply a transmap just calls more attention to this old issue, as it puts texture makers back to the possette days when they could claim the problem wasn't their fault.

Gareee's note about masking however, shows that the issue can be addressed now, but only if the texture makers will finally get on board. And also shows that if this long standing issue continues, that would be the fault of texture makers.

it could have been addressed at least as soon as p6 came out.  and  hasn't been.  it might be the fault of texture makers, but i doubt it will change.  and since daz made the decision to do it this way, saying the solution was masked eyebrow materials/shaders could work just as well, then they should actually demonstrate the method and not sell textures with embedded eyebrows.    i honestly prefer the masking method, and wish that all makeup, tattoos and body hairs in textures were done this way, but also would prefer proper skin shaders and different material or shader enhanced textures.  that's just not what merchants do, and saying they should but then doing the opposite is just not effective.

i do have, and prefer, texture maps without painted brows.  and in about half my pics, i go by hand through my "v3" folder in my textures folder and grab one of the several transmaps in there and apply the transmaps to the brows and change the color of the brows.  i generally choose hair color last, and choose textures based on the skin tone i want.  also, i find some darker textures use a more brownish/hue shifted looking eyebrow instead of a nice clear black and use the transmap to enhance that. 

basically, this is making a rare practice more difficult and unpromoted.

Sure it is, Cobalt. You have to just let texturists know you won;t spend anothe rdime on texture created "poorly".

We no longer accept commercial products without UV mapping, and there was a time uv mapping was bad, or in some cases, just not even done.

Believe me, when someone realizes their income means doing something the right way, they'll suddenly do an "about face" and jump on the bandwagon.

Lyne: Many texturists just ignored the eyebrow geometry completely, and just painted their textures right on the head texture. Unless you specifically selected the brow material and tried to change it, you might never notice the difference, so it's not your fault.

Daz has a LOT of things that they require of PAs, and thier requirements really make good sense, much as many people witll bitch about them. And many content creators are not accepted by Daz because they cut corners, and  just don't invest the creation time they really should. (Note I'm not saying "all" but "many".)

In their defense, there's a problem facing content creators: there are a LOT of them. And there are only a few things you can do to make a buck at this:

Reduce retail price, hoping to "make it up on volume"...doesn;t work in most cases.
Cut your developement time to the bone. This of course yeilds in most cases inferior product, but keeps that "new product money" rolling in. Way too many people take this route.

Take the extra time, and create REALLY top notch items, but charge a little higher price for them. These things usually sell well, and usually will make the creator the money they deserve to make. Examples are StoneMason, Faveral, Aery Soul, Lady :Little Fox, ect.

Part of the problem is that it takes a LONG time and a LOT of invested time to really get good at doing these various creations, and many people have to do this in their spare time.

Just like any other market, the only way to "groom" the content creators (myself included) is if we put out inferior product, Don't Buy It! Make Us Suffer, and learn what our customers want.

And if someone kicks out amazing work, support them, and hype them as much as you can. Make sure they can make a living at this, and keep doing what we want them to do.

In this last year we lost Anton (no discussions about why), Neftis, and Mec4D. All that outstanding talent is now gone, because they just couldn't make enough at this to make it worth their time.

But I digress.....sorry.

No need to apologize Gareee, I don't think thats digression. Rather it is right to the heart of the matter. Vote with your dollars if you want to be heard. Its so simple. Personally, I won't knowingly buy textures with painted on eyebrows. If I get duped, I'll return it and cease buying from that vendor permanently. Further, I have no interest in a separate full face tex for each color of eyebrows - way too much bloat and tedious to change in my skin shader setup. Nor am I interested in paying for a bunch of worthless Poser node development as I render in Cinema4D. Just provide the brow textures on a white or black background at the same size/resolution as the face texture and let me work out how I wish to use it, and where. Same goes for "makeup" (most of which looks absurdly clown-like in the first place, but now I digress). That said, cloning out existing eyebrows on maps takes literally seconds for each side. If you have a reasonably modern version of Photoshop, use the Patch Tool in Destination mode. Draw an appropriately shaped selection just above the offending eyebrow, and drag it down to cover it. Touch up with Spot Healing Brush Tool if/as necessary. Done. Even without PS, cloning isn't exactly brain surgery, and is available in nearly any 2D prog out there. Using a clone tool in Lighten mode and less than 100% opacity gives results similar to the Healing Brush. Shouldn't take more than a minute per side. It just seems this issue is getting blown way out of proportion. We are CG artists and should be able to do some things for ourselves. We are also consumers, and so have the power to effect change.

Masking and or a set of psd layers with different colors seems to be the best way, to me that is. I don't mind throwing a  head texture into any paint app with the a brow psd layers and picking the color or adjusting the color of the choices, then merging and saving. I would prefer the psd option. Unfortunately, there are so many that want it all done for them and even merging a couple of layers is to much work.

I never liked the transmap brows, they never looked very good to me. I have seen so many women with one color of brow and another color hair that it seems normal. a quick example would be Madona, Marilyn Monroe and so on. But I do think it will effect the overall use and sales if a system is not worked out as a norm and not as a bonus.

Yeah, psd layers are definitely a very good option! Truly seems the most flexible and doable solution. I did like the transmap brows, but it looks like that era is passing.

Ee-gads, SoCalRoberta, V4 Has a brain, now "THAT" is an improvement on V3!

The thing is that the PSD option is way more time and labor intensive than most users want. You can't use MAT poses on them, you have to do stuff yourself and the files are larger and people want none of those for the most part.

While I was working on my V4 characters, I was concerned about the lack of an eyebrow transmap guessing that it might be controversial. Looks like my concerns were justifiable, from the number of posts I've seen about this.  Just out of curiosity, has anyone taken a look at the What's Hot list here at RO for V3 texture packs, or at the most popular recent releases at Daz and determined if those characters use eyebrow transmaps or have the eyebrows painted on? I don't have all their characters to check definitively, but it looks like Aery Soul, Blackhearted, Thorne and Sarsa, Handspan, etc. have eyebrows right on their characters' head textures. I didn't see any recent V3 releases at Daz that looked to me like eyebrow transmaps. It's interesting that so many top-selling merchants are not using transmaps and are still selling very well. I am not discounting anyone's complaints about not being able to change eyebrow color, just suggesting that "painted on" eyebrows (which are usually real eyebrows from photos and that naturally match the model's skin tones and her hair color) characterize many character packs, and is not unique to V4.

I went through all of my textures and only 3 have eyebrow transmaps. If they had them I used them, if they didn't have them I didn't. Rarely do I see people with blond or very light eyebrows. Most people from my experience, (Im a photographer) have medium to dark eyebrows, even blond people, (maybe some people dye them, or they're not really blond?). Blond or very light eyebrows don't show up well in most renders (or photographs) unless they are portraits, so having medium to dark eyebrows, (which almost all texture maps I've seen use) never bothered me. I never really thought about it until all of these threads popped up. I'm honestly surprised at all the fuss, I didn't realize so many people used transmapped eyebrows. Coldrake

stephaniebt - that's right, it's not.  and that's my concern.  in the thread at daz i said, "this is like saying if you take people's calculators away, they'll do the right thing and balance it by hand.  even though most weren't balancing them at all before."  i do have some textures with no brows, and i find i use them more often.  and i have participated in multiple threads asking for more textures with transmapped brows and for p6 layer style make-up and body hair.  but it is so little of a practice and so few consumers actually do more than "oh my god!  you're previews are beautiful!  let me buy that now!" that few merchants pay attention. 

i know that removing the area to transmap will only make things worse. 

as a for instance, i have 8 different free eyebrow transmaps from different people for v3.  they don't need to be huge, because the eyebrows weren't a random region on a whole facial map.  they weren't hard to make, because the creators just needed to follow the brow geometry's map.  not map something in the area that uv maps become complex- the eye region of the head.  not long ago i tried to make, for a pic of my own, a sort of white mask with the eyes lined in black for a unimesh figure.  i found it nearly impossible to make the long line out from the eye i wanted to, because of how condensed the map got at that place.  decided to look around at who else had solved this problem only to quickly find that most had just avoided it by not putting any hard edged decoration in this area. 

working on an unmarked and tiny piece of a uvmap seems substantially more difficult than working within a specifically defined area.

minor correction: aery soul hasn't sold any textures yet.  they have one free texture: luna.  they want their work to be perfect before going to sale.  i can voice these concerns in their forum, but i guarantee that a) they'll do what they think is best (they're very polite but adamant about their decisions regarding their products) and b) tons will buy their upcoming alice regradless.

coldrake - every day i see redheads with bright  "red-gold" eyebrows, and true blonds with blond eyebrows.  no, they don't show up well.  and that's why they look both beautiful and interesting and memorable unlike the wealth of bottle blondes with dark eyebrows, like the two beryld mentioned.  this is not to say there aren't blondes with dark eyebrows, because there are. but about 90% of blondes i see without the telltale roots or deliberate salon streaking or the other obvious dye job cues have not only blond brows but blond lashes.  i can't think of one natural red-head i've seen that didn't have red eyebrows.  i'm sure they exist, but i haven't noticed any.  and my absolute pet peeve, textures where people should have jet black brows having brown ones that are ridiculously reddish is quite common.

gareee-  i thank you for your inspirational words.  they make me feel better about being critical when purchasing (often i feel vaguely guilty when not buying things from merchants i really respect as individuals).  would you suggest providing feedback as well?  because i know lots of times i wonder whether i should say anything to someone who makes a product i almost want to buy, but has a decision making flaw.   i don't want to make them feel bad about their work, but i also feel that if i don't say anything, they probably won't address the issue i see.  what's you're advice?

the thing is, daz has a return policy, but not everyone does.  and the whole reason i prefer separate brows is because i find no difference in the result but more versatility in use. 

in the end, i see this as a case where customers and merchants should do lots more work so that daz could save work on morph creation that was craft that went into v3 and v1/v2.  and that daz responded by saying, "well, do this instead.  this is the best practice."  and followed it up by not doing it themselves.   i don't think this is horrible or egregious behavior, but i don't agree that it's perfectly o.k. and that they have no responsibility for what i see as a significant decrease in quality.  v4 has other areas where she shows an increase in quality, but this is definitely a backward step.

as for postworking textures... if i have to at minimum triple compress a texture (once for original jpeg source photo, second for v4 texture, and third for postworking the texture), well, that's a much less than ideal situation.  and painting my own brows when there isn't a specifically dedicated region and a more complicated mapping.... it's probably beyond me to do it to my own satisfaction.  though it seems like i'll have to try.  which is good, i suppose, but makes me less willing to pay even low prices for textures.

stephaniebt: are the seams as much of a nightmare as i've heard?  i've seen some texture artists express dismay over the high increase in seams, and i'm wondering how problematic you found that compared to working on unimesh textures?

Quote -
I have copied this thread off to a texturemaker' yahoo group:
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/texturemakers/

People in that group didn't take my comments so negatively, and are in fact now trying to figure out how to do it right in Daz Studio and Poser.

Anyone who knows how... please go there and show them, so we can get good textures in the future. There are at least 200 texture makers subscribed there.

Xena's already got it pegged down properly in poser, and it looks excellent. I'm sure she'll release an eyebrow pack once it's completed.

it's not a difficult trick to blend textures in poser.   there's what, 4 different nodes you can do it with?  blender, color ramp, math, color math... oh! and edge blend.  i'm far from an expert user, and here's my blend of rss-ified texture/hair texture and procedural marble.

i feel like i  shouldn't know more about how the textures they sell can be implemented in the target software than the merchants themselves. i'm no bagginsbill, no takezo, no olivier, no Ro.br.  and certainly no face_off. i basically feel my way through the material room.  but if the case is actually that they didn't know, despite the multiple threads showing how such things can be done, the multiple tutorials, the many bagginsbill matmatic threads, etc. then i guess this is a boon in the end.

and maybe i just know more than i think.

I think so many texture artists are just so used to painting them on the textures that they never gave it a second thought, because that's how most other people did it, and customers seemed content with that setup.

Also, while people kind of lump content creators into on big ball, many reqlly good modelers can rig, many riggers can't model with style, and many texture atrists know little about technical aspects of poser. So many people just were content using P4 for SO many years, that they never bothered to learn any new features at all.

I think a LOT of them picked up P5 free or cheap, and are now fast tracking towards the newer versions because customers are now more savvy, and are now demanding the new features be used.. and that's good for everyone.

that makes a lot of sense.  i tend to think of merchants who sell to poser as sort of experts in the aspect they work with poser in.  wow, that was an awkward sentence.  to clarify, i just sort of assumed that the best texture artists selling textures for poser were also material room experts.  and that merchants selling figures for poser were setup room masters.  and people making props, etc. knew the ins and outs of scaling, quad vs. triangle and all sorts of other details necessary to go from a standard modeler to poser.  and that the same held true of d|s. 

i mean, i've seen several threads on this topic before this, and i'm not trying to make money by providing the community with something they want.

i say this to explain my assumption, not to say it should be different.  that is, i understand what your saying and don't fault anyone.  i'm just glad to see it might be changing.

-->stephaniebt: are the seams as much of a nightmare as i've heard?  i've seen some texture artists express dismay over the high increase in seams, and i'm wondering how problematic you found that compared to working on unimesh textures?<--

It really threw me for a loop at at first, it's so very different. It takes some getting used to because the arm and leg seams aren't straight, they wind around the limbs, and then you've got the the difficulty of joining the legs to the torso at the top of the thighs. The eyes are way different, it was tricky for me to figure out where eyeliner went and to get it looking good when the eyes were closed. So yeah, pretty much a nightmare, LOL! I'm sure others will pick it up quickly though. I'm kind of a plodder. ;-)