That's why I'm glad and sad by the announcement.

Pity the poor merchants, that they may have to try a bit harder to sell us their goods.
DPH

PapaBlueMarlin  ....not the dawg, surely !!
heh heh

OK.

Wonderful news.

I am very happy for Anton.

Well, if not free, there is always Donation-ware.

carodan,

unbelievable renders buddy.
could you possible share some of your render settings and/or secrets?

I don't see it at all that way. Look at M3, V3, and Aiko3 (as well as all DAZ figures except the recent V4). I bought everyone of them. And guess what? They all had a limited market. Once they became free (or only $1 in the PC club) the market exploded with support for the figures. What was DAZ thinking? Maybe that they had already paid the cost of building the figure and made a profit, and now they wanted total domination of the market. It worked. So should I feel sorry for Apollo? Should I feel regret buying the figure before it was free? Hell no. I never regret supporting talent. $50 wasn't really that much for a figure that can do things like no other figure. And now everyone will find out for themselves all the cool ideas put into Apollo. bB

Quote - I hate to be a bit of a wet-blanket on the great news of Apollo being back on the market, lord knows I was one of the biggest supporters of him at www.rawart3d.com , but I do have to comment on the posts made about how the fact that Apollo is free is a good thing for this community. One of the big problems in this community is its low pricing, which forces alot of merchants to no longer be able to produce the quality figures which we would like to have access to. This kind of de-valuation on the work of figure creators is very dangerous to the market as a whole. 
Now while I limit myself to texturing and not figure creation, it doesnt affect me directly to make these comments, but I do know that through my contact with many of the top modelmakers in this community, that quality figure creation can take at least several months to work out. So when their work gets devalues to the point where they can no longer afford to take the time to develop, we loose more and more of the quality developers.
So as much as I like Apollo, this business of him being free is not as much of a boon to the community as some may think. The community is more than the consumer, without the producers, then the community will not have much growth.

Just something to keep in mind.

Eh?

Dont quite understand the logic to that. By your reckoning, every free skin, every free prop has undermined the skins and props being made by merchants. Hell the release of Hexagon for $1.99 must have crippled every clothes maker in poserdom. Lol.
  Surely if a figure is that good (and i have evry reason to believe it is from the glowing reccomendations of other users) then it simply serves to raise the benchmark for other creators. M3 and V3 (even Hiro) were free, and content for them soared through the roof. But i bet people still bought Miki and Terai Yuki and so on simply for variety. 
 I made a gun prop for Poser, dosent mean that every merchant who makes gun props is suddenly threatened or loses income. Any merchant worth their salt should be jumping at the new opportunity to sell add-ons and support safe in the knowledge that peeps'll have more dollars left over from not buying the base figure. (and having a customer base that much larger due to it being free).
 The more that have access to a free figure=the more support/content made for such even if that means by the users themselves. A whole budding new generation of merchants willing to findout for themselves how to make stuff. Scary thought ;)

 So long as a merchant aint gonna make an Apollo clone then do they have any concerns? People'll always want different figures.

 This aint a pop at you Rawn, i just dont understand how this could be anything but beneficial to the market. A merchant who adapts to what is the market stands to do very well.

I agree with bB, points well made.    Plus with the updated Apollo 2007 coming it's going to be even MORE incentive for merchants to finally embrace this great model and lend support.  Anton doesn't seem the least bit negative about this.  His attitude is the same.  If you want to support him, great.  If not, that's fine to!  I'd like to see Rawn support him again as I thought his ideas expanded Apollo and added to his value. 

This is exciting news.  I was in the Ukriane while Apollo Maximus was out and recently got back.  I had started looking at the Practical Poser book with the cd.....but wasn't sure if I would be able to find any of the other stuff (clothes, etc.)!!  I am not a huge fan of the morph injection for every morph under the sun deal (daz series)....nice figures but really like to have most of the morphs already on the list.....anyway nice to see A.M. returning for those who didn't get him!

Hasn't this community learned yet? Free is not free. Sure, you'll get the base for free. In order to get him to do anything you'll need to buy $100.00 worth of morphs, cloths, textures etc...

I'm reallty turned off by what I equate to republican pollitical spin. I would buy a figure for good money if the figure is good. Don't try to sell me this bill of goods about how "the figure is free". It is not.

And... I would never buy a car that I felt the manufacturer was going to pull up stakes and leave the industry at any moment. "Yeah, but the car was free". The car was free but I had to buy the windows, seats, steering wheel etc... Now where's the car maker? Gone? What?

The negative feelings of that happening go right along with the model every time it is loaded into the scene.

No thanks...

Sorry if this sounds negative. It is what it is. Just my thoughts.

Quote - Hasn't this community learned yet? Free is not free. Sure, you'll get the base for free. In order to get him to do anything you'll need to buy $100.00 worth of morphs, cloths, textures etc...

.

He's already stated it'll come with clothes, textures and so on. It already comes with morphs.  ie the $100 thing your saying is already included for nothing.
 SO the car analogy would be more accurately: "I got offered this free car and um the steering wheel came with it for free and so did the windows. And er..in fact i didnt have to buy anything."

 ;)

lawn, most of the stuff that folks created for apollo, after anton initially released him, were free morphs and other add-ons IIRC. see examples of renders of said morphs earlier in this thread. unfortunately there is sometimes a degree of negativity accompanying the efforts of talented chaps like anton, but I hope he won't let it discourage him this time. perhaps he might think of it as the price of success.

Did you BOTHER to read the CP forums thread for Apollo Lawndart? 

Apollo 7 will come with ALL previous content created by Anton for Apollo.  That includes all the clothing packs, textures and props. 

Read a bit more before posting information that is incorrect!  Trolling is just not appreciated here in this thread.  Go take your political crap elsewhere!

No I didn't read the CP forum. Sorry. I was incorrect...

RAMWolff: I am not and never was a troll. I was posting what I thought were legitimate concerns. My information was incorrect. All who have posted about my comment were civil except you. Learn to be nice. This will be a better place.

I stand corrected and am big enough to admit it. I have no problem being wrong on this and will now concider taking a look at the character.

Cheers,

Joe

Yes! This is excellent news.

I think Lawndart does make some valid points though.  It's always bothered me a little to see textures for a free piece of clothing immediately appear in the Marketplace by someone other than the clothing's creator. I also remember seeing Runtime DNA full of Apollo stuff, most of it being a bit too pricey in my opinion. Even if the base Apollo figure were free back then, he would certainly not have been a 'free' figure unless you wanted to use him naked. It's great that Anton will include so much stuff with Apollo's free release this time, but Lawndart is not incorrect when he says that a free figure is usually not truly free.

SnowS

Quote - I think Lawndart does make some valid points though.  It's always bothered me a little to see textures for a free piece of clothing immediately appear in the Marketplace by someone other than the clothing's creator. I also remember seeing Runtime DNA full of Apollo stuff, most of it being a bit too pricey in my opinion. Even if the base Apollo figure were free back then, he would certainly not have been a 'free' figure unless you wanted to use him naked. It's great that Anton will include so much stuff with Apollo's free release this time, but Lawndart is not incorrect when he says that a free figure is usually not truly free.

SnowS

Is anything in life truly Free? 

Seriously, this is a business and folks are to mostly here to make money. There have been/still are/and probably be more free stuff for most figures -- that's how artists learn to better themselves. And then there will be the paid items. 

In the past, Apollo's stuff is usually a little higher in price because he is: 1) a male figure. and 2) not affliiated with the "major" figure stores. Many didn't even include the ADS features of the base figure. And most of it was pure fantasy based. In other words: niche, niche, niche.

Here's the opportunity to correct those past... errors. No store based politics involed: he's going to be free with a large base library of creator support to get him out the gate. Time will tell how merchants will react, and what they will be comfortable with selling it for. He's still a male figure, after all. 

And I understand Teyon's and Rawnrr's concerns, but that wasn't about money -- it was about politics and other issues best left in the past. This is a fresh opportunity for everyone to start from scratch. Support Anton in this endeavor by downloading Am 2007 and, if you're a merchant, try making 1 item for him and test the waters. What could it hurt? You could make some money :) 

Apollo isn't as much as a niche anymore with his widespread exposure in Practical Poser 6 and even the 2006 release. Folks are hungry for products to be able to best utilize the figure. Real world clothing and more variety in skin textures are needed! 

So rejoice and join in the celebration. 

-- Jeff

Yeah i understand the analogy, but Snow S: Think how much support M3 or V3 got and they would be the only ones not truly free. (As in buy morph packs/ skins for if they wanna be anything other than plastic defaut ).

Right, DAZ figures are not truly "free" either because you do have to buy the morphs and textures to make them really useful at all. I don't know, maybe it's just because I don't like hearing people say that Apollo is going to be real competition for M4 when 1. We haven't really seen Apollo 2007 yet, 2. We certainly haven't seen M4 yet, 3. DAZ figures consistently receive more support than any other figures, and 4. Third-party male figures don't exactly get merchants all excited to create things for them. I'm hoping for the best for Anton, but let's keep expectations realistic.

SnowS

 The proof is in the pudding i guess. I just think it's a kind gesture is all. One of those situations where if you dont want him, youve lost nothing, if you do youve saved $80 (?) . Wether perception of him as truly free or not is down to opinion of how much additional content is required to make a figure "workable", but as far as i can make out from what were told it'll include enough to get people started: skins, clothes, poses, morphs etc. 
 No one is being forced to buy anything additional. shrugs I dont see what all the fuss is about really. I see it as a figure with a great reputation and previous commercial avaiability being released for free with a good chunk of back-up content.

 The equivalent (not quality mind, just as an example) : Would perhaps be M3, plus Head Morphs, Plus Body Morphs, Plus Poses, Plus Three Large Clothing Packs, Plus Morphing Face Masks, Plus Skin Textures.

 Not only is that a very generous gesture, but Apollo would only not truly be free where there some hidden catch at the end of it. Which there isnt. So yes he is truly free. (or soon to be anyway).

 i for one am looking forward to it. Im just surprised how much negativity there is surrounding the immenent release. scratches head no one has to download it if they dont want to. No one has to buy or make anything for it. The guy has returned to the community, has said "Okay lets forget the past, here's a free figure". Sounds cool to me.

What would be really good given Anton's generosity in this release would be to see folk make clothing etc for Apollo and also offer them for free.

I just think it would be a shame to see anyone profit from Anton's generosity.....

Quote - What would be really good given Anton's generosity in this release would be to see folk make clothing etc for Apollo and also offer them for free.

I just think it would be a shame to see anyone profit from Anton's generosity.....

and there lays my point ;)

Quote - > Quote - What would be really good given Anton's generosity in this release would be to see folk make clothing etc for Apollo and also offer them for free.

I just think it would be a shame to see anyone profit from Anton's generosity.....

 

and there lays my point ;)

 Yeah i can see the angle your coming from but we may as well have said "Shame to see anyone profit from Daz's generosity" (as in M3 and V3), yet those figures have helped a whole myriad of merchants earn money from them. 
 No one minds that V3 has a billion sets of clothes and so on, i dont expect everything that is/may yet be made for Apollo to be free. If someone wants to earn money from it fair play to 'em Anton has already given his blessing, if someone wants to make a freebie fair play also.  Same game as with any other figure. Just if its free to begin with, peeps have more dollars to spend on extras.  So for merchants willing to support it, they will do better. 
 If i have Apollo and hardly any outfits, i'd be looking to find them in the marketplace or free section. Just like any other figure except Apollo 7 stands to begin with more gear/extras as part of said free release than any other figure.
 Okay i cant speak for anyone else but a free figure dosent mean i wouldnt pay to buy outfits and so on. Yeah sure I hope to see extra freebies (who wouldnt) but does that mean i wouldnt buy that spiffing good armour or that sleek business suit or punk hairstyle? Nope, in fact i'd have more cash to do so ;)
 

Mathman - thanks and yeah, I've found displacement is a neat way of adding all kinds of detail. Only wish I had access to Z-Brush.
Thanks for other kind words about renders and morphs etc. If I get a chance I'll try and put together a detailed rendering tutorial when I get some time (working very hard ATM) - although I'd really recommend searching these and other forums for tips and studying them at length. Knowing what you want to achieve is a good start, and accept that it will take hours, days.

I won't profess to knowing anything about making a living from 3d (since I don't). I think there will always be a market for high quality clothing, textures, morphs, figures or whatever for 3d. However, IMO the real dynamic that people have to get their heads around is how the markets are working - who pulls the strings, carries the real weight etc? That might bear more consideration than what one individual might do, especially in the case of figure design and marketing. Look at how may people bought V4 and how many products hit the arena in a relatively short space of time.
If Apollo wasn't considered a threat to content creators or marketplaces while he was for sale (there’s a double meaning in there somewhere), why now that he's going to be free? If people really like him and use him (and there's nothing to say that they will) then it could inspire all kinds of ideas (for figure creators to really push the envelope) and potential products for the future. Be inspired, cash in. What have you got to lose?
I think that, as one poster here pointed out (and Anton has publically stated on his website) Apollo was retired for other reasons than purely financial ones. I'm pretty sure he's smart enough to assume that if people get on well with Apollo and demand stuff making for him, he wouldn't begrudge that support (whether free or commercial).

 I don’t think that arguments like “when people offer stuff up for free it hurts the commercial market” really represent the situation in all fairness.  I do know that people’s interests can get hurt by business strategies that companies (rather than individuals) make, so I think that there is much more to ponder on here. 

Incidentally, I think even if Anton were about to release just the 2006 version of Apollo (with the equivalent of hundreds of morphs, multiple textures, clothing items, hair, character add-ons) it’d still be without doubt the most complete “Free”  figure I’ve ever seen.

Wow! Free?!  That is the ultimate freebie for sure!

I really hope he reconsiders a female counterpart for him. I was really looking forward to Venus.

Believe it or not, the Apollo Maximus item in its original form was already plug-n-play, all morphs and textures and body hair, beard, body suit, poses - lots of them, compared to other figure packs.

From what I've read at CP, Anton has left the commercial  world of content creation - it's a hobby for him again. He was saying that he did have plans to work on free stuff (possibly Venus) as spare time permits. But that could be way off in the future, or never.

Good for him I say.

*Quote - "Believe it or not, the Apollo Maximus item in its original form was already plug-n-play, all morphs and textures and body hair, beard, body suit, poses - lots of them, compared to other figure packs."

Absolutely. I was busy with the original release for some time. 

The Cole morphs are the only other single item I wouldn't be without now.

maybe it's just me.
but i fail to see how if someone created some armour and/or clothing for a figure (that was offered for free) that person is ruining the community.

would you rather that the creator didn't offer his, or hers, skills and efforts to the rest of us at all? or would you rather just want everything for free?
do you think you are entitled to everything for free?

it's simple. if you want it then you'll buy it...and if you don't, then you won't.
many vendors offer freestuff as well as items for sale.
jmo

Quote - What would be really good given Anton's generosity in this release would be to see folk make clothing etc for Apollo and also offer them for free.

I just think it would be a shame to see anyone profit from Anton's generosity.....

Heh - prepare thyself, then :closedeyes: Seriously? Good on him for letting it all out for free. If he open sources it (e.g. allows others to make/re-distribute changes made to the base mesh), even better. Dunno if it's purely altruistic or not (long story - but times have changed, so I'm willing to accept it at face value ATM), but I'm not in or around the biz at the hobbyist level anymore, so I approach this as an ordinary consumer just like the rest of the planet, and couldn't care less ab't motive. That said, I fully expect that the majority of AM stuff will be parked in the R'osity marketplace - fact of life in R'osityville and all that stuff. > Quote - Yeah i can see the angle your coming from but we may as well have said "Shame to see anyone profit from Daz's generosity" (as in M3 and V3), yet those figures have helped a whole myriad of merchants earn money from them.

To be fair, V3/M3 and the like were released as part of marketing stimulus; a bit of a different story. > Quote - I dont think that arguments like when people offer stuff up for free it hurts the commercial market really represent the situation in all fairness.

Agreed. Merchants who feel threatened by this should either ratchet up your skills to exceed the free item so as to justify cost/value (e.g. like DAZ & RDNA do), or forget it. Commercial interests are just that - and you'd better believe that the real world wouldn't have any mercy. > Quote - From what I've read at CP, Anton has left the commercial world of content creation - it's a hobby for him again.

Even better on him if that's the case. I sincerely hope it is... as much as we didn't get along, I'll be the first human being to say that the man can sling some damned top-notch mesh when he puts his mind to it. ...and if you're reading this Mr. Kisiel, let me repeat what I've said many times in this post concerning this news: Good on ye. This stuff was made to be enjoyed, period. I've long since moved back into my long-ago calling as a sysadmin, and the graphics results (and tools, OMG the tools!) that the folks I work with produce would easily beat the unholy dogsh!t of anything I've seen in Poserdom -- you and perhaps three others excepted. Our group's annual budget is prolly larger than DAZ', Zygote's, and EF's market cap ...combined. Given all that, I'm at a stage where I'm cozy with just hanging out and snarking only occasionally. Reg'ds, /P

Tom, Anton hasn't said anything about open sourcing ApolloMax or any of the products Anton has created.

creating a freebie for download and a open source model are competely completely different.

Anton has and will maintain his copyrights even in a freebie, the freebie download will have a readme or a eula and when it's available then everybody can see what it says.

but nowhere has anybody said open sourcing apollomax, that's a dirrerent thing entirely.

1. I know that, which is why I included the word "if" in regards to open source 2) Open Source licensing relies on copyright to function. For instance, the Linux kernel is copyrighted to Linus Torvalds, the guy who originally built it. IF Anton open-sources AM, he would still retain the copyright, and can even control what goes into the 'official' version, just as Mr. Torvalds does today w/ the Linux Kernel. /P

Quote - Wow! Free?!  That is the ultimate freebie for sure!

I really hope he reconsiders a female counterpart for him. I was really looking forward to Venus.

Anton has hinted a future figure in the CP forums. When asked he has not ruled out a VenusMaximus or IsisMaximus. He is no longer doing it for gain but for the fun. He made no promises he has no reason to make her and no reason not to make her.

Wow!  Wolf, I always thought your M2 clones were fantastic, but that one is truly amazing! 

I missed out on AM...just couldn't afford him when he first came out, so I'm absolutely thrilled to hear about this!

Quote - Just as an FYI, be aware that AM has a learning curve, as Anton did some of the innovating lots of people have been clamoring for. If all you know is Dork and M3, things will take some time to learn. But it's worth it.

If some good tutorial's are out there, that shouldn't be a problem. The V4 tutorial was minimal. If you're doing innovative stuff, you need to explain it, so that merchants and users can exploit your work.

I don't see any advantage to anyone in a full open-source, modify the mesh, arrangement. DAZ have a pretty decent approach--morphs are OK, and modified meshes need to be encoded so that you can't get at them without the original figure. Which means there are good variant figures out there, free and paid for. I don't know how far Anton might go along such a path, but what more do people need?

Quote - He is no longer doing it for gain but for the fun.

Good for him!  Not good that he's not making money, but good that he's found the fun again doing something that he loves and has an extraordinary talent for.

I don't mind getting paid for the occasional project, but when my hobby starts to feel like a high pressure  job then it's no longer something fun and ceases to be fun.  Personally I think Anton will find that he's happier without the commercial aspect.  Not that he shouldn't consider a return to the commercial market, just that it's important to find a balance between fun/hobby and commercial/work.

Wolf, is that M2? Very nicely done, looks kinda like Morgan Freeman.  

SnowS

Really nice render you posted there wolf359. A very convincing character indeed.

its a super morph build of the venerable Mike2 combining the "free Spubba troll Cr2 for larger hands/feet and Boris by capsces. thanks

Quote - No I didn't read the CP forum. Sorry. I was incorrect...

RAMWolff: I am not and never was a troll. I was posting what I thought were legitimate concerns. My information was incorrect. All who have posted about my comment were civil except you. Learn to be nice. This will be a better place.

I stand corrected and am big enough to admit it. I have no problem being wrong on this and will now concider taking a look at the character.

Cheers,

Joe

I too apologize Lawndart.  That was out of line but I just didn't want this thread to go the way of so many that start out exciting and positive and degrade to a negative bitch fest as the pages roll by because someone pops in and starts it up.  I get tired of unsubscribing from a thread that I started out enjoying and ended up hating because of that sort of behavior.  I knew better than to post that last couple of lines in my previous post but I was simply reacting and looking back - over reacting.  

Again I apologize!

Richard

Quote - > Quote - What would be really good given Anton's generosity in this release would be to see folk make clothing etc for Apollo and also offer them for free.

I just think it would be a shame to see anyone profit from Anton's generosity.....

 

and there lays my point ;)

That point came up more than once over at the CP thread and Anton stated clearly that Merchants SHOULD make packs for sale and if they wanted to support Apollo with freebies that's nice too.  He NEVER said that since this was his contribution that he expected everyone else to follow in his exact footsteps and provide free content.  I'd love to see you support Apollo again Rawn!  Charge away.  You do quality work and your not priced above my means so if it's something I want for him I'll buy from you gladly!

Quote - Wow! Free?!  That is the ultimate freebie for sure!

I really hope he reconsiders a female counterpart for him. I was really looking forward to Venus.

As a matter of fact he IS considering a counterpart.  She will be called either, at least at this moment Venus or Isis.  He's not sure totally but I think he's so inspired by all the positive feedback and excitement it's got his creative juices flowing even more so. 

No date, no "yes, this is happening" but it's been brought up more than once by him.  So... fingers crossed that Apollo has his female counterpart some day!   Joe, from Netherworks was quite excited by the idea!!

Hahahhaha  Isis.  That would be sweet.
Makes me think I need to restart my work on Imhotep for Apollo. ^^

bB

Attached Link: http://www.contentparadise.com/forums/contentparadise/index.php?showtopic=3738

Anton has released his followup figure to Apollo I don't thik its as good as Apollo myself as she doesn't have the rage of morphs, textures and clothing but she's free.

Quote - > Quote -

Anton has hinted a future figure in the CP forums. When asked he has not ruled out a VenusMaximus or IsisMaximus. He is no longer doing it for gain but for the fun. He made no promises he has no reason to make her and no reason not to make her.

 

Anton has released his followup figure to Apollo I don't thik its as good as Apollo myself as she doesn't have the rage of morphs, textures and clothing but she's free.

AND can dance the hamster dance,too! LOLZ :lol:

Anton has made it clear that Apollo will not be open source.

No, definitely and emphatically not open source.
The updated ApolloMaximus will be a free download, but not an open source figure.
The thread over at CP is pretty active, and Anton's info on posting additions to the package as he finishes them and adds them to the upcoming download archive.  Includes some nifty utilities to make the figure more useful.  Every day brings the release that much closer.
I bought AM when first released, and got another copy with the (Practical Poser?) book, but I'm still looking forward to this release.  Especially as I'm currently re-organizing my Poser Runtime(s) and re-installing key products to set up my new computer.  Keeping me busy while I'm waiting, anyway.
;-]

sorry to be a dolt...but i have no idea what "not being open source" means to me.

can someone lay this out for the uninformed.
does this mean i can't make clothes and armour for apollo?

thanks!

Basically, it means that you cannot dissect Apollo's geometry and take it as your own or incorporate it into your own base figure.

You can make clothing, morphs, texture sets, for Apollo -- and in fact, Anton is heping you out with some of the included content in Apollo 2007, including a blank cr2 to help transfer the ADS dials.

Anton is giving Apollo the character away for free -- not the technology behind Apollo :)

-- Jeff