Quote - You're getting all bent out of shape about what is in reality a minor part of a very large compliment. Was it a necessary part?

I believe so, yes. /P

Hmmm...why are you waiting for M4 when Apollo is available for free?

Quote - Hmmm...why are you waiting for M4 when Apollo is available for free?

FWIW, I have Apollo already downloaded; me, I'm hoping for a Male morph of V4... flexibility is king IMHO. But, one size never really fits all when it comes to mesh, and perhaps the person you asked ab't it wants that kind of choice to best suit wants and needs to fit a specific project. /P

Vittorio is already available for V4. 

I don't think that you can take the same mesh and necessarily make a great male figure from a female mesh.  Just look at the shoulders on M3.  Making a female from a male is a little better (M2 --> Stephanie 1).

Apollo has a gender morph, which doesn't make him female, but a little more androgenous.

Quote Anton -
    "K. Obviously this is going to be a life-long pursuit of yours. Tom, most people don't like strangers to insult them. "

    Quote penguinisto -
    You're getting all bent out of shape about what is in reality a minor part of a very large compliment. Dunno why you tend to fly off the handle like that so often (esp. since I'm not casting insults here), but let's put it behind us. My PM and email (my 'nym at comcast) will suffice for any further discussions about these interpersonal issues you seem to experience. We all have flaws, you included... admit and improve, I always say.
    Now, let's get back to the main topic, shall we?

How very superior of you.  You  throw out one-liner personality based  remarks then wonder why the recepient 'tends to fly off the handle like that so often.."  Don't you understand  cause and effect?

Nothing ignites more than people who provoke then act innocent when responded to. It's an old game.

Perhaps you need to look at your own 'interpersonal issues you seem to experience".  Admit and improve, if you can.

Now lets get back to the main topic, shall we?

    Quote Penguinisto:  Indeed - civil and open speech is a beautiful thing in motion, IMHO. I   just wish there wasn't so much talk by certain other participants about wanting men - it's starting to creep me out. :p

Hmmm.  So "civil and open speech" in your book refers to only 'some'  participants?

Do try to look in a mirror sometimes and see what reflects back.

Now, let's get back to the main topic, shall we?

Mike 4? The more the merrier I say, as long as it improves on M3 and  more than one can be used in animation without bogging down.

Quote - You  throw out one-liner personality based  remarks then wonder why the recepient 'tends to fly off the handle like that so often.."  Don't you understand  cause and effect?

I understand sycophancy, if that helps. > Quote - Hmmm.  So "civil and open speech" in your book refers to only 'some'  participants?

The remark about "creeping me out" was a joke... hence the ":p" at the end of it. Ah, but I keep forgetting at times that this is Renderosity. My Bad. /P

Quote - Ah, but I keep forgetting at times that this is Renderosity. My Bad. /P

Huh?

Heh - old joke. Sorry. Some folks tend to have no sense of humor in the joint, and I seem to attract more than the usual share. /P

Quote  Masha- " You  throw out one-liner personality based  remarks then wonder why the recepient 'tends to fly off the handle like that so often.."  Don't you understand  cause and effect?"

    Quote Penguinisto:
    "I understand sycophancy, if that helps."
    ..."My Bad."

Indeed.  Why not call it tough love?  Revisit your post in  'Polite' thread.

Back on topic,

    Quote Penguinisto:
    FWIW, I have Apollo already downloaded; me, I'm hoping for a Male morph of V4... flexibility is king IMHO.
   
Me I'm hoping for a female morph of Apollo or better still it's brand new female counterpart. 
But that's just the sychophant in me. :)

Quote - Indeed.  Why not call it tough love?  Revisit your post in  'Polite' thread.

Not taking the bait as it was too clumsily presented. ;) > Quote - Me I'm hoping for a female morph of Apollo or better still it's brand new female counterpart.

There is a female morph from what I've seen mentioned in the thread; I also cast about and found this: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2685995&page=10#message_2943963 Apparently it wouldn't work too well in full detail from a male base, body-wise. IIRC, Anton is also not creating a female mesh anytime soon (mentioned in that thread as well), so that's out. Means that the only viable option left as far as fully trans-gender capable base meshes would be the (existing) V3/V3-Male, and a possible V4/V4-Male one, but this time, one that is actually supported w/ options and clothing to spur 3rd-party development. This is of course not counting any serious 3rd-party figure besides that may or may not be in the works. /P

Quote Penguinisto:
"Apparently it wouldn't work too well in full detail from a male base, body-wise. IIRC, Anton is also not creating a female mesh anytime soon (mentioned in that thread as well), so that's out."

Quote Anton from above mentioned thread:
"Apollo isn't designed to do female nudes. But if you are doing clothed females in anything more than say a one piece bathing suit, you should be fine.
A femail mesh figure is simply a time factor. And since I only do Poser now as a hobby, that time is limited to just spare time fun stuff. It may happen at some point but there is no timeline."

Happy to note  that  the door is not closed.   With user reports raving  non-stop about the excellence of Apollo for the past few weeks if  I were Anton I'd postpone my decision to relegate Poser to a mere hobby and get out a female figure while the iron is sizzling.
There'd be hundreds if not thousands of ppl happy to pay for his efforts - he'd make a mint!  He'd also be able to market it without outside involvement now.  I wish he'd go for it!

Guys, lets please stop with the tit for tat. 

Thanks!

Quote - Quote Penguinisto:
"Apparently it wouldn't work too well in full detail from a male base, body-wise. IIRC, Anton is also not creating a female mesh anytime soon (mentioned in that thread as well), so that's out."

Quote Anton from above mentioned thread:
"Apollo isn't designed to do female nudes. But if you are doing clothed females in anything more than say a one piece bathing suit, you should be fine.
A femail mesh figure is simply a time factor. And since I only do Poser now as a hobby, that time is limited to just spare time fun stuff. It may happen at some point but there is no timeline."

Happy to note  that  the door is not closed.

Never said it was, though for all practical intents and purposes, it is not a viable short- or medium-term thing to look forward to. It would be cool if one came out, however it doesn't seem like that will happen any time soon... but we'll table that for now. > Quote -    With user reports raving  non-stop about the excellence of Apollo for the past few weeks...

It's an excellent free figure - it had been on sale for a long time before, and the market seemed lukewarm at best overall during that time, so pricing is a hgue advantage now. To compare popularity of both figures, I did the following seaches in the gallery here at Renderosity (a site where neither figure is sold): #1: "Apollo Maximus" vs. "Michael 3" between 5 months and 3 years ago (pre-free AM, though both were around for that period of time). AM: 393. M3: 1000+ (the search filter result limit). #2: Same terms, but this time overall, from yesterday back to 3 years prior. AM: 634 M3: 1000+ (again, the search filter result count stops cold there). #3: Same Terms (again), but only during the period when AM was free (February to present). AM: 222 M3: 232 (this is to discount any arguments about the M3 base being free). #4: Same Terms (yep), but just during the last 30 days, with a huge marketing push. AM: 89 M3: 62 I did that to prove a point which anyone can repeat: As a free figure with (by now) tons of free clothing, AM is wildly popular. At its previous price point(s), it was not, when compared to the free M3 base figure. Now there is one caveat: M3 morphs are still sold items, whereas AM morphs are free. This in turn gives AM a boost, as is also evidenced by the above numbers. > Quote - if  I were Anton I'd postpone my decision to relegate Poser to a mere hobby and get out a female figure while the iron is sizzling.

Why? You (and everyone else) need a solid business case for this if you want to justify the work (and the reason cannot be simply to spite DAZ/RO/RDNA/etc... Zygote (via Brandenburg)'s attempt to do that fell flat with Project:Human (though admittedly Brandenberg goofed horribly in counting on the community to do all the joint params, texturing, etc). I noticed however that you posted this: > Quote - There'd be hundreds if not thousands of ppl happy to pay for his efforts - he'd make a mint!

...but that's another reason why I went to the trouble of posting the stats up there. V3 base is free. A3 base is free. V4 base will soon be free - if history is any indication at all, that is. Good luck going up against that, no matter who you are. AM's own history is proof positive of this. After all, unless there is a market niche that obviously is not being filled, or the product is insanely superior, why would anyone care to shell out the dough for something they can get a near-perfect equivalent of ...for free? Neftoon Gal (neftis) and Alexa (Nesterenko/3DCommune) sold quite well when they came out, because there was nothing in the "toon" niche to compete against (the Aiko 1 figure was designed more for anime), and demand was pretty demonstrably large at the time for a 'toon-based figure. There was also Sara, which was free. Then DAZ began teasing about, then releasing "The Girl", which had just caught the tail-end of that particular craze. > Quote - He'd also be able to market it without outside involvement now.  I wish he'd go for it!

I'm not so sure he would; coupled with the fact that he would have little to no sales plan, or an internal team, to turn a free version into profit (not just cost recoupment - profit), there would be no real point in his building one upon demand. /P

Jumpstartme please bear with me as I wind up this debate. :)

Penguinisto, I applaud your dilligence above :)   If I were Anton, as I was silly enough to put it - or any other figuremaker for that matter - I'd consider myself almost warned off of  making any alternate figures. I do admit that  my statement: "He'd make a mint!" is based on hunch rather than a proper business plan.

    Quote - Masha :"There'd be hundreds if not thousands of ppl happy to pay for his efforts - he'd make a mint!"

    Quote Penguinisto:
    "...but that's another reason why I went to the trouble of posting the stats up there. V3 base is free. A3 base is free. V4 base will soon be free - if history is any indication at all, that is. Good luck going up against that, no matter who you are. AM's own history is proof positive of this."

Well, Daz figures have been  aggressively and very cleverly building up a market  for years with a huge user base already established with the early Vickies that came natively with Poser3 and 4,( not to mention the great  add-on support of their characters by them as well as associate contributors),  and yes to beat them at the marketing level would take a bit of doing no matter who one is.  

But who made this a competition - as in "going up against that"?  Not moi.   Just a goodly chunk of  market share would earn big I reckon.  (Very un-business-like I know ;)

And then again I see no "proof positive" of "AM's own history" above, just a 'sort-of'  history of user postings at Rendo's gallery.  It indicates something but there's a difference dontcha know.

    Quote Penguinisto: "You (and everyone else) need a solid business case for this if you want to justify the work (and the reason cannot be simply to spite DAZ/RO/RDNA/etc... "

Gosh, I for one have no beef whatever and use all these sites and their products with pleasure.  I trust these are not  assumptions  and judgements again.

At any rate Penguinisto our simulating debate has run it's course and is veering way off - and before Jumpstartme jumps on me, I bid you audieu and a pleasant night's sleep.

Cheers,
Masha

sigh.

Part of the problem these past few years has been people will no actually commercial experience in Poser, posting about it and merchnat business/personal affairs with presumed authority.
Simply for the benefit of Apollo merchants, fans, and users who happen to read this.....

Quote - **Penguinisto wrote:**To compare popularity of both figures, I did the following searches in the gallery here at Renderosity (a site where neither figure is sold):
#1: "Apollo Maximus" vs. "Michael 3" between 5 months and 3 years ago (pre-free AM, though both were around for that period of time). AM: 393. M3: 1000+ (the search filter result limit).

wrong.

Michael 3 was released fall of 2003
Apollo was released June of 2005
Apollo will celebrate his two year release date this coming June.

Quote - Penguinisto wrote: it had been on sale for a long time before, and the market seemed lukewarm at best overall during that time

wrong.

Apollo was a top seller every single week he was available at both sites. His user interest spanned 3+ Apollo topic forums, often the most requested supported figure, over M3, in polls and figure request threads, and not one documented return.

Quote - Penguinisto wrote: As a free figure with (by now) tons of free clothing, AM is wildly popular. At its previous price point(s), it was not, when compared to the free M3 base figure.

wrong.

At his previous price points, he sold in the top in both locations. During the time he was available in each location, there was a massive spike in site traffic. Unlike M3, there was no Apollo free base,  during the 10 month period Apollo was available.

Quote - Penguinisto wrote: ...the fact that he would have little to no sales plan, or an internal team, to turn a free version into profit (not just cost recoupment - profit), there would be no real point in his building one upon demand.

wrong.

Quote - Penguinisto wrote: ...Now, let's get back to the main topic, shall we?

M4..

Oh lol Is that wat the topic was. COuld have fooled me. :)

shakes head Tom, do you have nothing else to do? I think we're done here. Or God, at least, I hope so.

Please, let's talk about M4, or any other figure in Poserland, and its merits - not about each others' personalities.

Otherwise, I shall have to make a decision between locking the thread, or unleashing the kitten pics - and wooh, that's a toughie.

Thank you.

OBEY THE KITTY!

(snide attempts at insult handily flushed... too much good stuff in here to bother with 'em ATM):

Quote - Michael 3 was released fall of 2003
Apollo was released June of 2005
Apollo will celebrate his two year release date this coming June.

Ah - my bad. Then let us amend the search criteria for the time period: "Apollo Maximus" v. "Michael 3" from Feb of this year (3 mo. ago) back to 23 months ago (June 2005): AM: 304 M3: 1000+ My point stands. During the time when AM was for-cost (and even thereafter, assuming a free base AM during any of that time period), it lagged behind M3 by a huge margin. Only after AM was released for free did its popularity pick up any (as evidenced earlier). Since RO's gallery search engine stops at 1000 for results, it would be time consuming to gather more fine-grained stats... but it can be done, and anybody can duplicate the results!> Quote - > Quote - Penguinisto wrote: it had been on sale for a long time before, and the market seemed lukewarm at best overall during that time

wrong.

Apollo was a top seller every single week he was available at both sites. His user interest spanned 3+ Apollo topic forums, often the most requested supported figure, over M3, in polls and figure request threads, and not one documented return.

I refer you again to the stats above. I have provable and repeatable evidence up there showing actual use, while so far you're pointing at forum threads and forum polls. Forum requests and forum polls != general consumption figures. The galleries in RO are the best metric of that. > Quote - Unlike M3, there was no Apollo free base,  during the 10 month period Apollo was available.

Agreed - only recently has AM been made a free figure. My point still stands: You cannot compete against free unless the figure is so far above the thing you're competing against, so as to make it valuable enough to warrant the sales price. > Quote - Penguinisto wrote: ...the fact that he would have little to no sales plan, or an internal team, to turn a free version into profit (not just cost recoupment - profit), there would be no real point in his building one upon demand.

wrong. Then prove it wrong and build a free female figure, then blast V4 out of the water with it. ;) Basic economics and basic business practices say otherwise... unless you've suddenly sprouted a team of paid modellers and/or a company, I fail to see where you would succeed enough to release a free female figure. 'course, if you want to release one anyway as a free figure - go for it. /P

Quote - But who made this a competition - as in "going up against that"?  Not moi.   Just a goodly chunk of  market share would earn big I reckon.  (Very un-business-like I know ;)

Agreed ab't the first part - I have no stake in any competition anyway... I'm only stating what I see. The second part? Dunno - that depends on Anton, not you or I. I used gallery pic usage as a metric because it's the only one that doesn't rely on assertion or guesstimation, and anyone can duplicate the results, making it something that can actually be called objective. If it gets used and posted, it shows consumption and time invested... simple causal chain there. No amount of assertion (or condescending talk from certain other parties) can mitigate it, let alone make the facts go away. That said, it is not perfect, due to other factors taht contribute to it - length of time since release, promotions and specials, etc. But - it still shows basic usage, popularity, and acceptance. /P

Addendum: Out of curiousity, I totalled up usage for the two between 30 and 31 weeks ago (random week... feel free to pick any), using the utmost lenient in-favor-of-AM conditions. "Michael" (Poser Gallery Only) : 15 "Apollo" (All Galleries) : 5 -- now , post free AM release, between 4 and 5 weeks ago: "Michael": 9 "Apollo": 14 (9 in the Poser forum alone) Before AM was released free, usage and volume lagged behind M3; afterwards, they compare rather well. Ergo, if there is to be a female figure, it will have to be released for free to compete with an upcoming free base V4. Likewise, an M4 would have to be released for free as a base mesh to compete. QED. /P

I don't quite understand your point.  A lot of my gallery has been parred down, including some Apollo images.  So I don't know that your statistics would be accurate for that time period considering that those images are no longer there.

This is my list of number of Apollo images/per month, but there were more for certain months at one time...
Sep 05 - 1
Oct 05 - 3
Nov 05 - 5
Dec 05 - 4
Jan 06 - 1
Feb 06 - 4
Mar 06 - 3
Apr 06 - 4
May 06 - 6
Jun 06 - 3
Aug 06 - 4
Sep 06 - 1
Oct 06 - 4
Dec 06 - 1
Mar 07 - 1
Apr 07 - 5
May 07 - 1 (so far)

I'm not sure of the relevance between a ratio between M3 and Apollo in terms of Renderosity threads and images.  It's not taking into account that the Apollo fan base is mainly concentrated at Content Paradise and RuntimeDNA, where the unimesh figures aren't always considered the most popular.

I agree that it isn't a perfect metric (and have said as much), but it's the best one available given the 3rd-party non-affiliation and the general wide-ranging base of users. RDNA has e nowhere near the volumes of RO (and does CP even have a user gallery?), but I suppose an enterprising soul could do a wider sweep of all known Poserdom galleries, no? /P

Quote - I agree that it isn't a perfect metric

 
Very far from perfect! Especially if you look at your average Poser user that tends to buy a figure or two, and takes a long time before turning it into an image, and even longer before posting it in the galleries.
Seriously, your opinons don't amount to a whole lot more then assumptions, speculations, and armchair quarterbacking, and at the moment it looks like you're trying awfully hard to antagonize Anton, which makes your speculations even less believable.  My hat is off to Anton for being as calm as he is!  
Did it ever occur to you that given your lack of access to better statistics you are hardly qualified to meaningfully discuss that which you are attempting to discuss.

Now, Kitty pictures, anyone?

Foul!

sorry Connie, we have to declare a foul for the attempt to use logic. it's not allowed when Pengy is baiting Anton.

play on!

Quote - Foul!

sorry Connie, we have to declare a foul for the attempt to use logic. it's not allowed when Pengy is baiting Anton.

play on!

The V3 male morphs were a good idea since it's totally inefficient to have 2 (two) figures for such minor changes.

I wish there would be an V4, A4, M4 all in one. This combination would require either many polygons or skill to get it done, but after all it's better than the many base figures that are required now.
However, should DAZ be able to create a realistic figure which is V5 and includes gender change, I would more likely wait for this than getting any V4 male morphs. Up to this point there could even be a low poly version of this figure. Including more extreme morphs would prolly lead to more polys as I've doubts about the existence of the needed skills to achieve this with less than 100k polycount.
If they would offer a seperate high poly version that is designed specially to meet simulation needs, I would be even happier.

Back to present: What else features should M4 include than what all the predecessors got?
Considering the hard- and software environment and that the figure should work well for many people, there is not much left other than good posing behaviour.

Since V3 had huge flaws just like all other figures, freebies or not, and DAZ didn't care to fix or was plain and simple unable to do so, it is very unlikely that a M4 will be any better.
If one creates a figure that is not for sale which has flaws then it's nothing special if these flaws never get fixed. Maybe it was done for learning purpose or whatever.
If a figure is for sale however, it should offer some very basic functionality. That is perfect posing behaviour and the option of a low resource load variant for animations or bigger scenes.Some other basic things are morphing flexibility and perfect realism if the user wants it.
That they then take money for such a product is fine. If the special version is 500+ bucks it's fine too because as it is now one would have to spend plenty hours to integrate these features or assign the task to companies to do it.
Basically there is no need for further commercial figures if the creators don't fix the flaws that they were made awre of during the past couple years. And a fix is not something like V4 to V4.1 and with M4 the same procedure again only because someone slept while QA.
The need for free figures is given but so is the need for options and items for these figures.

Am I wrong is saying that the free V3/A3/M3 base figures have all been essentially without morphs? This then makes them entirley useless to the the majority of Poser users.

I for one am very curious as to what Daz will pull out of it's, er...hat with M4. The bar has truly been raised with Apollo, and Daz is clearly aware of this, given the number of familiar improvements they incorporated into V4.

I highly doubt I'll purchase M4, regardless of price, upon it's release. I'm totally satisfied with Apollo, and have thus far not hit the wall of wanting to do something with him, and not being able to do it.

Quote - Seriously, your opinons don't amount to a whole lot more then assumptions, speculations, and armchair quarterbacking, and at the moment it looks like you're trying awfully hard to antagonize Anton, which makes your speculations even less believable.

Then show me a better metric. These are not "assumptions", as I'm using easily repeatable proof by any interested or uninterested party (albeit refined over a few posts as more facts become clear). If you think this is speculation, then you are more than welcome to show me where the supposed speculation lies. Actual sales figures or download figures are secretive, and usually inflated - not a failing on anyone's part, but simply business. Gallery postings OTOH reflect rough but actual usage: After all, if it is being posted, obviously it is being used. I even went out of my way to be charitable about it and stacked the odds in AM's favor, so I hardly think that this is baiting. Now, so that everyone is clear here, the main point that seems to make so many people uncomfortable is still being missed (and yet has been repeated numerous times): Apollo Maximus gained popularity and usage equal to M3 only after it was freely released. This is neither a slander or an insult... it is simply a hypothesis with supporting evidence. Just like science, you (and anyone else) are welcome to disprove it with better evidence. Anton is a merchant, a business entity, and is no more immune to analysis or opinion than any other - be it DAZ, Billy-T, Renderosity, RDNA, PoserPros, or what-have-you. Now... onto the good stuff. /P

Quote - The V3 male morphs were a good idea since it's totally inefficient to have 2 (two) figures for such minor changes.

I wish there would be an V4, A4, M4 all in one. This combination would require either many polygons or skill to get it done, but after all it's better than the many base figures that are required now.

I agree wholeheartedly. OTOH, I think there may well be pretty much the required number of polys, considering the whole Unimesh concept. :p OTOH, I do grok what I think is a potential problem - joints. Each base figure is (IIRC, top-of-the-head) cut in different ways. > Quote - Back to present: What else features should M4 include than what all the predecessors got?

Considering the hard- and software environment and that the figure should work well for many people, there is not much left other than good posing behaviour.

Right now, we're all bumping up against the current limits of jointed figures (as opposed to skeletal-rigged figures). Big example: the dreaded hip-thigh bends. IMHO, EF's Terai Yuki 2 has done wonders in this arena, and is an example that should (again, IMHO) be emulated widely. That said, there's still a lot of shortfall that requires postwork. > Quote - Since V3 had huge flaws just like all other figures, freebies or not, and DAZ didn't care to fix or was plain and simple unable to do so, it is very unlikely that a M4 will be any better.

You mean M3 and his nasty ol' bubble-shoulders? Not so sure... from first-hand experience, I do know that DAZ isn't not-caring about such things. IMHO, I think it has more to do with maintaining compatibility once a figure is released (V3 sr1 is a good example of why trying to fix after-the-fact is a bad thing... it was in essence a huge ball of compromises). > Quote - If a figure is for sale however, it should offer some very basic functionality. That is perfect posing behaviour and the option of a low resource load variant for animations or bigger scenes.Some other basic things are morphing flexibility and perfect realism if the user wants it.

Perfect is a bit much, but there is (for example) a V3 lo-res figure (comes w/ the basic content free for DAZ|Studio), and etc. OTOH, understand that v3 is (relatively) an old gal by now. > Quote - If the special version is 500+ bucks it's fine too because as it is now one would have to spend plenty hours to integrate these features or assign the task to companies to do it.

This is part of why I said that a female Apollo figure (as opposed to a fully functional morph) is a nice idea (hell, I'd happily get one if it worked as well and as fully as AM), but when competing against "free", it'll be a tough sell unless a far higher level of functionality, detail, and/or perfection is worth the cost. > Quote - Basically there is no need for further commercial figures if the creators don't fix the flaws that they were made awre of during the past couple years.

A large part of the new figure is a collection of improvements and fixes to previous versions, bugs and all. There is another aspect (or series of 'em) as well. When V3 first came out, the best you could hope for in hardware performance was a P4 w/ hyperthreading... if you had a lot of dough. Given that this little hobby of ours is resource-intensive, hardware plays a large part of it all. Add to that OS/software limitations which have improved over time. Finally, the most widely-used app for these figures has been refined - from Poser 5 (blecch) to Poser 7 (by most accounts a very decent proggie). /P

Quote - Am I wrong is saying that the free V3/A3/M3 base figures have all been essentially without morphs? This then makes them entirley useless to the the majority of Poser users.

Agreed, and IIRC I mentioned as much earlier. :) > Quote - I for one am very curious as to what Daz will pull out of it's, er...hat with M4. The bar has truly been raised with Apollo, and Daz is clearly aware of this, given the number of familiar improvements they incorporated into V4.

I'm very curious as well. /P

Well, since you admit it's a mere hypothesys, let me bring a focus on  what hypothesis really is:  HYPOTHESIS implies insufficient evidence to provide more than a tentative explanation. Reference material can be found at http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hypothesis 

Now, just because you came up with some lacking evidence, it doesn't mean that those whose leg you seem to want to bark up are obligated to defend themselves from your hypothesizing.

Edit... I think this needs a nudity advisory!

I think Im going to be scarred for life now Connie :lol: was not expecting that ~hehehe~

Quote - > Quote - it is simply a hypothesis......are welcome to disprove it with better evidence. 

 

Well, since you admit it's a mere hypothesys, let me bring a focus on  what hypothesis really is:  HYPOTHESIS implies insufficient evidence to provide more than a tentative explanation. Reference material can be found at http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hypothesis 

You edited out a slightly important bit... "with supporting evidence" This means that it is not just a hypothesis any more. Just because you wish it to not be so, does not make it suddenly not so, try as you might. ;) Here, let me help you; It is a very simple logical chain: === If someone posts an image using a given figure to a gallery, the odds that this 'someone' is using that figure is perfect. The more images that are posted to a gallery of a figure, the more usage a figure provably has. This paragraph is known as "Quod Erat Demonstrandum", if that helps any. === So, what part of this continues to fail for you? You claim it is insufficient, but then you fail to mention how you think it is insufficient. Mere assertion does not disprove, no matter how loud the assertion may be. Add other galleries? Sure - but this would mean insuring no conflict of interest by site owners. Renderosity is about as neutral as it gets, and has enough volume to reduce to negligibility any anomalies and outliers. Sure, there could be a vast hidden army of people using Apollo Maximus that never posts to the Rendo gallery, but this doesn't seem very likely. You could claim that it is being used in specialized galleries, such as in erotica-based ones more than the generalized ones. That said, I'm willing to wager that both figures are used heavily in that arena, and many others... and that the proportions are very likely to mirror what we've found here at RO's galleries. The best measurement, naturally, would be actual unique downloads, correlated between free and bought. Since there is no reliable source of these, we use what we can prove, in a way that cannot be hidden or made incomprehensible (in most cases) to the average reader. Also, a clue you may be interested in: No one is "obligated" to "defend" anything. This is merely discussion of opinion. Why you feel the need to be so emotionally involved (apparently)? I dunno. /P

Foul!

Excessive use of Smugness. Free throw awarded against Pengy.

Play on!

Yeah I totally forgot the joints, lol. Some Python should be able to take care of this. If not then maybe it's time to say goodbye to this usage of joints.

IMHO Poser shows some good advance from P4 to P7. There was great advance from P1 to P3 too but these version are a little old and different to be compared. If there's support for external renderengines in P8 that would be wonderful.
Anyways, DAZ's figures don't show this advance. Compared to Poser, they are more P4 level.
V2 was nice to use when it was actual, V3 was also nice to use but there were also many sessions in texteditors to fix the shoddy  files. V4 and 4.1 are even worse if it comes to textediting sessions. Often V4(.1) works fine, but if it doesn't then the big hunt for the error starts.
I have nothing against DAZ but if I buy a figure it should work. If it's a freebie and I have to fix some things than it's ok. But it isn't.

And just like ClawShrimp said for the other figures, V4 Base is totally useless for an Poser user. It's not even useless but it is annoying because if I can't change the figures appearance without much effort (deformers, modeling app), than it fails the concept of the target app.The free V3 Base is useless without Morphs, but for it is free it is a great figure.

By taking into account what customers say I mean to try to implement it in a product. If signs are that the implementation would cause more trouble than there was before it might be better to forget about compatibility. Similar to what SGI does with hardware for example.

Ican not tell how much DAZ cares about wishes and problems that users encounter because I don't know the responsible people at DAZ. From other industries I can tell however that, if one doesn't care about norms and other standards, the product is not made with perfection in mind but rather money. DAZ's INJ files and file management are no nice sight.

That this can cause higher costs is probable and costs bring me already to the hardware.
3D and HPC would fit together excellently. HPC and hobby is the problem.

I think most people buy new hardware if the old is either defect or so damn slow and outdated that almost nothing really runs on it anymore. looks at his dusty Alpha 733MHz...
While 64bit computing and PCI Ext. are stuff that was wide spread in the 90's and high tech in the 80's, for consumer PC's it's still top notch. The resulting huge rendertimes and low quality meshes to be able to render at all on mediocre systems are things that IMHO won't change during the next few years.

"Mass market" figures, clothes, environments will likely stay at some medium level, but if scripts and materials get better used, the result must not be that bad. Using these possibilities and focus on one app leave much room for improvements without much higher system requirements.
If there's a new figure, than this is something that should be used for it. A mindless thrown out figure-line is maybe good for business but not for improvement. Curious Labs/E-frontier did a  better job regarding this issue and Poser/Shade.

Quote - Yeah I totally forgot the joints, lol. Some Python should be able to take care of this. If not then maybe it's time to say goodbye to this usage of joints.

Yep - if PhilC's work in this area is any indication, it can do a lot. Not sure what kind of performance hit would come about with calling the Python Interpreter every time someone spins a dial, though. > Quote - If there's support for external renderengines in P8 that would be wonderful.

Oh, yes... I've been dying for someone to do that for a long time. I may end up using Carrara exclusively by then, though (I have nothing but love for its native render engine...) > Quote - Anyways, DAZ's figures don't show this advance. Compared to Poser, they are more P4 level.

True - though mostly for compatibility (with P4/PPP) reasons. DAZ|Studio was also lashed onto P4 compatibility for a very long time. > Quote - Often V4(.1) works fine, but if it doesn't then the big hunt for the error starts.

I have nothing against DAZ but if I buy a figure it should work. If it's a freebie and I have to fix some things than it's ok. But it isn't.

I actually don't know about V4's pros and cons ...yet. I'm still playing with the idea of purchasing it. [brevity sneck... I agree with it readily, esp. the hardware issue :) ] > Quote - If there's a new figure, than this is something that should be used for it. A mindless thrown out figure-line is maybe good for business but not for improvement. Curious Labs/E-frontier did a  better job regarding this issue and Poser/Shade.

I think DAZ may be looking to do much the same with D|S and Cararra... and as both continue to build the relative programs more and more into their respective suites (Poser into Shade, and D|S into Carrara), there may well be an eventual disconnect between DAZ figures and Poser entirely. Meanwhile, until DAZ gets up a larger Carrara user base, Poser compatibility is paramount to what they do. /P

While I certainly do not agree with the manner in which you have approached this discussion/debate Penguinisto, I have to agree with at least your larger point…Apollo simply did not have the installed user-base that M3 did (I use past-tense very purposefully). Although all things considered, a direct comparison is hardly appropriate.

Ultimately, all that we can be sure of is there will almost certainly be an M4; and it will almost certainly build upon many the design philosophies from whence V4 was born. Whether these philosophies were wholly original or heavily influenced by Anton’s Apollo is neither here nor there. What is important to note is that V4 is still, in no uncertain terms, half a generation behind Apollo from a design perspective. If Daz were to release essentially a male version of V4, they would be entering the market with an inferior product.

Unfortunately, brand loyalty (AKA closed-mindedness) plays an influential role in the commercial Poser world. There are still those whose loyalty is such that they flat out refuse to Apollo for a spin - Just as there are those that will hail Apollo as the second coming, and refuse to try a Daz or eFrontier male figure.

Arbitrary statistical comparisons aside, for those that find ourselves in the grey middle, only good can come from such healthy competition.

Wow! That was a long post!!!

Quote - Apollo simply did not have the installed user-base that M3 did (I use past-tense very purposefully).

No worries or arguments there - IMHO, you are quite prescient in using the past tense; even my wee statistical forays prove as much. > Quote - Although all things considered, a direct comparison is hardly appropriate.

No such thing as a perfect fit... :) > Quote - Unfortunately, brand loyalty (AKA closed-mindedness) plays an influential role in the commercial Poser world. There are still those whose loyalty is such that they flat out refuse to Apollo for a spin - Just as there are those that will hail Apollo as the second coming, and refuse to try a Daz or eFrontier male figure.

Yep (I have both, BTW). And yes, competition is a very good thing... it brings out the best in all competitors. /P

I say use whatever figure you like.  Posette, V4, M3, the G2 figures........whatever.  And enjoy using them.  If it's fun for you: then that's what counts.  And if you are sold on a given figure for technical reasons: then that's what counts for you.

While I will consider suggestions, and while I will consider and learn from (and respect) the knowledge of others who obviously have knowledge.............
 
.................I won't eat a certain menu offering at a restaurant because someone else thinks that it tastes good -- I'll eat what I think tastes good.  I'm the one who's tasting the food for myself: and not the other person.

That's an utterly simplistic thing to say, I know.  But sometimes 'simplistic' is the way to go.  It suppresses a lot of unnecessary background noise.

Brand loyalty counts for a lot when it comes to cars, store chains, and soft drinks, too.

BTW - ClawShrimp is both thoughtful and helpful.  What more could you ask for?

If the competition doesn't get in the way of other content production - clothing mainly.
A figure without clothes is almost as useless for quick pictures as a figure without morphs.

If D|S / Cararra will be one product and Poser / Shade too, then it's prolly linked with more work for the user. Using the D|S/Cararra app to Morph and pose and import to Poser/Shade to render. :S
And 2 more apps on my To-Learn list. I need a coffee now and forget about these horrors...

P.S.: Calling Python works well atm. Sometimes a slight delay, but I guess it's much less than 500ms before the dial reacts.

Xenophonz - thank you for the compliment, much appreciated.

Zarat, I am thankful that competition has yet to be driven to that point, and thankfully I doubt it ever will be. Ultimately it is the consumer that dictates market movement. If there is little room for competition, but a competitor enters market regardless, their product is unlikely to receive consumer support.

But then, there's always room for competition if the product in question improves upon what is already available.

Your concern regarding additional investment into a particular product, say clothing for V4 for instance, is valid, but thankfully looks to be correcting itself (again, as a result of consumer movement/feedback). Software such as Clothing Converter and Wardrobe Wizard, or more appropriately their inevitable successors, will do doubt see all but an end to this concern (or significantly lessen it’s impact).

**Thought this had posted before, but not so.

**Quote Penguinisto:
    "If you think this is speculation, then you are more than welcome to show me where the supposed speculation lies."

A part of the speculation lies in 'assuming'  that everyone who uses a figure actually posts their results here.  I for one have no gallery here, and any number of people post only in certain galleries or none at all.  Others as PapaBM pointed out  tend to clean out their galleries

So the so-called statistics posted are at best 'speculation'.  At worst an excuse to provoke further.

    Quote Penguinisto:
    "This is neither a slander or an insult... it is simply a hypothesis with supporting evidence."

Very inexact, speculative  evidence at that - supporting nothing but your 'hypothesis' which of course means = 'unproved theory'  itself.
Why the need to go to such trouble to post it and prove nothing at all but that users have posted  in more volume here of a widely available figure with a pre-existing user base for 4 years  as opposed to one that was on the market for some 10 months? 

Especially since my "If I were Anton..." paragraph casued your extraordinary outburst of investigative energy not any desire expressed by the man himself.

    Quote Penguinisto:
    "Anton is a merchant, a business entity, and is no more immune to analysis or opinion than any other - be it DAZ, Billy-T, Renderosity, RDNA, PoserPros, or what-have-you."

And as far as I know Anton is not now a merchant or business entity. But of course if you were just trying to be of service show me any other free content provider subjected to this type of frevent generosity of spirit.

Assuming this thing between Apollo and Daz figures were a competition, which I can assure you it isn't, as that I hate the concept and simply there is also nothing in the Poser market to win. Personally I don't see it as competition but rather only doing what they had to because someone forced them to change, but for the sake of arguement.....

In artistic markets, unlike some other markets, the crucial difference between innovation and emulation is that one generates new ideas and the other is limited/dependant on these outside ideas in order to exist.

Competition is a form of aggression which seeks to dominate for whatever the reason or scenario. The paradox is that if a competitive emulator succeeds against it's competition, it no longer has anything to emulate and both Innovator and Emulator are gone from the picture.

Competition results in contest only resulting in the exertion of effort and action which is neither guaranteed to be positive or productive. Historically economic and industrial competition has been healthy for the larger population only when there was diversity and the resources of the competitors is equal.

For the sake of ensuring the continuation of diversity, choice, and ethical balance, I do not think a company and it's resources competing against a sole artist in thier living room is something to be proud of, boast about, encourage, for admire. I also think that it is important to always consider intent instead of simply chalking everything unsavory as simply being the state of what is considered "doing business" in today's society. In my opinion a big fish dependant on competing with smaller fish in a very small barrel is more telling of a fish that seems big but in reality can't cut it in the lake with the other big fish.

As an person apart of a larger world first, an artist second, and a former merchant last, I personally have felt that is is my responsibility and right not just to offer fair pricing ( all pricing is self-serving only), but rather to seek to educate, empower, and support those who I self identify with, share my marketplace with, communicate with, and generally all those who I come in contact with. Now while this may sound sappy, it has very deep benefits such as stimulating positive creativity, leading to shared goals and efforts, and generally feeling like what I am doing is worth while.

However, I don't see how creativity and motivation can exist in a vacuum where nothing is done to empower, educate, stimulate, or support those that have provided information, given support with the hopes of receiving some in return, and generally been the source of financial revenue.

Without support nothing can thrive and the nature of competition neither guarantees nor implies support, interest or anything else that would foster growth, evolution, innovation, or goodwill. Where the larger population may benefit in the short term from unhealthy/unbalanced competition, obviously that party will end with a horrible hang over as all parties without concern for consequence inevitably do.

I'm so glad to be back to hobbyist that I realize I should have done it years ago. But that doesn't mean that just because I have nothing to gain , or loose, that I don't feel I still have responsibilities, being to offer my best work free in exchange for participating and using the resources of the community, despite occasions where experiences have run to darker fringes of human nature I avoid in real life.

Now this may all be naive or considered unrealistic, but it doesn't make it untrue. The current structure of the Poser market (everyone) has been is a state of actively failing for various reasons for a few years now. The current structure has been so overdone, so over exploited, and over milked, that it will be interesting to see how the content side responds. I made the Morphing Fantasy Dress for V3, but really, how many times can you refit and reuse the same ideas before people start to wonder if there are any other ideas.
 
Where previously, within stores, merchant forums and private correspondence,  merchants (being the first red flag of what was coming) were complaining of diminishing sales and interest. Little was done higher up to address these concerns and instead, the "Let's just keep doing what we always have done" was stuck to leading the situation to present day, where now it is more obvious the stores and sites are finally feeling the crunch, which was previously painless from the sheer volume of content. But it doesn;t matter if you have 5000 products if they all drop in sales, because this is telling of a trend which must lead somewhere.

And here we are. I think diversity is the best way to survive any hardship. For stores, merchants, and users, the best approach is to embrace choices, options, diversity and abandon old habits, for what once worked is no longer working and when a company like Daz (calm down Tom) has to emulate a guy in his living room, you know thing must be at the breaking point, though I can assure you no one will admit it or talk about it. :) People should support and willingly encourage the support and use of all figures because if all your eggs are in one basket and the bottom rots out, your screwed and pretending and insisting the basket has no holes changes nothing.

Okay this is the most I have ever written. I hate typing. No one has to agree and I really don't care t debate it, but for  these reasons I think very soon all figures will be free. And freebies didn't cause this.

Sorry for any typos. Anyone see Spiderman yet?

EDIT:

Quote - Penguinisto wrote: "Anton is a merchant, a business entity, and is no more immune to analysis or opinion than any other..."

Wrong yet again. SOmeone keeping score?

I am not a Poser merchant nor am I am Poser business entity. I do not work in 3D anymore. I am a freebie making, fun loving, wishing you would give up already, hobbyist. :)

Btw: Thankie for the supportive responses.Off to find a cat picture.

I don't quite understand the cat reference but ....if someone could explain.

"when a company like Daz has to emulate a guy in his living room, you know things must be at breaking point."

Best. Line. Ever!

Somewhere along the line it became fashionable to post cute cat pictures instead of dead horses, that's all I know about it! 

I just woke up from the weirdest dream ever! I was being refused entry to some kinda ultra high tech Gene Simmon's family theme park because my name was on some militant terrorist list. I can understand the Gene Simmon's references from the dream because I just finished watching the Gene Simmon's Family Jewels before going to sleep, but the Militant terrorist tag being associated with me baffles the shit out of me. It must have been the ravioli I ate right before going to bed is all I can think!

Enough squabbling. This is ridiculous.