John ! Nice to see,......uhh, hear,..........uhhh, read you !

I think the term I read at one time was artistic snobbery....some snub it if it isnt made by painting on canvas, some if it isnt made by a pro program etc etc etc.  Is it still art if it is painted with a brush yet you dont grind your own pigmenst etc?  yea it gets annoying, but its a waste of time. And youre not likely to change anyones mind. 
.....and I agree with Groucho....
:)

RANT mode-
I have never cared what tool was used to make an image (unlkess it had some specific feature i wanted to try myself). A brilliant work is a brilliant work even if made from toothpicks and three different shades of dog poop!
As I have said before and grasshopper seems to back up, we make art solely because we want to, and, it makes us happy in the process. Comments and viewings are pure icing on that cake. If rndo closed tomorrow, I would not stop making images because making them makes me happy! I would miss the icing though!
We should celebrate everyone who gets off their butt, and makes, be it models, images, tools, etc! It is a special thing in a person and needs to be cherished. Maybe after a while,  a gentle nudge to try to grow in terms of techique...
Exit RANT mode.
(grin)

And I would like to offer a blanket thank you to all those who have helped me over the years and given me that occasional nudge,  it has been appreciated!

I have a pot of french vanilla flavoured coffee, a warm multi-core siting idle and the urge to work on something...

Coffee on: check
Machine Up: check

Headed to the same place!

Latte' in hand: check
Machines humming:check
Cat bound and gagged:check

Get ready to Rennnnnnderrrrrr !

....and all I had to work with was ONE shade of dog-poop........well call those mylean` years.
:)

I agree with Incarnadine,all of the comments and everything else is extra icing on the cake.  The only reason I went with Renderosity, is that with the problems I had when first using Bryce, this was the best forum that I found for actually getting help.  All of the others had either been dead for at least a year, or it was filled only with people that needed help, or no one cared.  With Renderosity though, I got answers almost immediately.  I could go to a Bryce only site, or like Dann-O said, a site that does not permit Poser, and has a large percentage of members that truly appreciate the abstracts and landscapes, and I don't know what it is, but's it cool images.  But if I did that, well, I would miss people like The Bryster with his super high speed martian internet satelite connection.   Oh, and I have to apologize for my earlier rant, I have now used 1, and only 1 object that I haven't built.  It was a boat.  But I built the world up around it. 

Hrm, I could use one of those Bryster connections....

What's all this about the latte/coffee comments? Has anyone been rummaging through my WIP folder? I've been working on some more cappuccino for the Secret Garden challenge....

:-)

The story is, I was planning on working through a pot of coffee and working on a render
Real life got in the way though. I recently moved from an in city apartment of 17 years to an outer suburbs house. I actually ended up barbeque hunting instead. Old one didn't survive the move to my new place. Then grocery shopping, then off to Candian Tire (it's a Canadian guy thing...cross between a hardware, automotive, sports/camping, garden, and home decoration with some furnishings and electronics store all rolled into one) and then it was time for supper. Did grilled italian sausages (on the new grill) with havarti cheese, beer  mustard and very lightly toasted buns accompanied by a couple of cold India Pale Ale's (Keith's). All followed with fresh local strawberries, thick cream and a trace of maple syrup.
It has been a good day (despite not rendering) and I am nursing a big case of the fat, dumb and happies!

(envious)

Yeah, that does indeed sound a pretty fine day.

@ Incarnadine  

Finally something I can relate to!  Sounds like you are sampling the good life. I to am envious.

After 3 months of work (2 of reno prior to move, move and unpack and more reno) it was really good to finally be able to kick back and not have to do house stuff. Was a good weekend.

Props are props are props....no matter what program you use them in. If you make your own props....more power to you. Art, like beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but Props used the same way, image after image is assembly line work and not art. Props are props....but creativity, inspiration and idea can turn them into art. ....and the thread lives on for another day....see, skiwillgee you didn't kill it.

**I usually just call a model a model, unless of course it is rigged, then I call it a character.  I cannot wait until I am good enough to sell stuff to DAZ. ** :thumbupboth:

Hey Incarnadine!  Nice to see you around.  Reno was never intended to be a lifelong thing.:scared:

Your barbecue story reminds me of a good practical joke to play on your new neighbors.  You know how most people fire up their grill without opening it to check it out first?  Well scour the freeways for a couple pounds of nice roadkill.  Then put it into your neighbors grill and close the cover.  When you see the smoke indicating that he has started his grill, call the police and tell them he is grilling neighborhood pets.

ROFL! Gee Dan, remind me not to move next door to you!

Hi Dan, how's life in the southern heat? From what i gather you folks don't need a grill, just let stuff sit out in the sun... (grin)
Nasty, nasty, nasty... (big grin)
Owning a house is for life, not just moving day! (more grins)

I had to get up on the roof a week ago to make sure some shingles got fixed before the monsoon rolls in and I nearly died.  Down here everybody sells thier house after six years or so and avoids the  hassles of haveing to replace major items before cashing in the equity.  Neighbors are so over rated.

Everything is in pretty good shape at the moment here, still have to tinker the eavestroughs a bit though. Been a fairly wet summer so far.
I can believe the nearly dying.

**The odd thing is that none of the new construction going on here uses eavestroughs.  The old timers houses have them though. Letting water pool close to you foundation invites termites and termites own the darned desert.

I had a small potato patch going and the termites got it all.**

A shotgun helps quite a lot with termites. As a solution, it must be said that it's almost totally ineffective in dealing with the overall termite problem; it's just that the application can be highly rewarding.

Better results are guaranteed with the latest developments in conventional explosive ordnance - though it seems likely any potato crop may see a reduced yield.

.

I like bbq's too! wish my weekend contained bbq's...

anyway...
Props is just a word. What matters is the connection the word implies... Within poser, anything non-figure is a prop, an extra an additive on the side.
Its status is not defined from an artworks point of view. You can make anything a topic, point of interest, additive, or even plain scene-filling material, theres no way of setting up a rule for this.
So instead objects are named from the applications perspective. Poser makes figures, so within the program, anything that isnt a figure is a prop, simply because it doesnt match up with posers core functionality.

--
Ray

I have some 2" thick aged Angus rib steaks.  A light coat of olive oil, some Montreal Steak Spice, a bit of fresh fine chopped garlic and just a trace of ginger. Friday night!

Incarnadine,  gimme ur gps coordinates.

Just follow your nose! (grin)

So lets see...

If I give someone "props" for doing a cool work of "art" it's different than giving them props to include IN their art. Unless of course the subject of their art is props in which case I'd be giving them props for their use of props in art about props.
Which is not at ALL to be confused with a easel...which is a prop for art, really.
Then again if I think about it from a application contextual standpoint...a poser piece might use a figure as a prop, or prop a figure in the background and include it in the art. I'm not sure I'd give props for that unless it was good art...or a good prop.
But of course the props ARE models after all, unless they are figures in poser in which case they're...figures...
But if I made a model of a propellar, prop, and propped it in a corner against a wax figure of a pilot, named ART...another prop...and it was GOOD art...would I prop it on an easel? And if I did would I get props for that or just huggles and kisses?
I think I need a rule set...
So I guess my rule of thumb will be something like this:

1. Always give props for good art
2. Sell props whenever possible
3. Make art about props wherever feasible
4. When using a figure as a prop in a poser context never name him Art...that would confuse the whole deal.
5. Whenever presented with the opportunity of propping up a beautiful model...take it....friends WILL give you props for that.
6. But don't take picutres...that would be art about props and models' figrues...that would be bad
7. Unless you could sell it as art about models' figures and props and prop it on a easel...for money...that would be good

'kay...I think I got it now.

Hey Claymor....I like your prop-osition....but, just to prop it up some, make it propout from all the rest. Give it a prop-er sturdy leg to stand pro-up on. Unless of course you prop-ose to just prop it right down on the propform and stand on its own merit. But, if nothing else, at least prop-mise me that you won't prop-tend that you didn't say all that you prop-osed in your last post....prop-lease!

Thread killer only fertilized this one.  It keeps growing.

so.. what's the prop eh.. prob.. with undying threads?

LOL,  and that fertilizer is growing corn.  Ack

It's all prop-ably a prop prop-erty prop-osal to prop up poser, I have no prop-lems with that! (grin)

do u think Daz will ever make a propster program?

....ready?....
....prop-ably......
:(

haha, do i smell "the future of bryce" there? :tongue1:

...dont know, but something smells...and it ain`t the sweet sweet smell of victory either....

Hard surface modelling?
What's that, is it like box modeling?

The problem with computer Barbies is that you can't set them on fire and smell the burning plastic or feed them to Cujo and see him bite their heads off.

dvlenk6
The concensus seems to be that if you make your own models it isn't art; if you render somebody else's models it is.
<
Maybe we can lie and say we bought the models from Pollygon's or Speedysquid's.

Could also go the Sybil route: Um, these are not my models its my artsy personality's models.

As far as modeling not being art well modeling is like drawing or sculpture. Both of those are arts. A good scene with lousy models is not going to be good.

While the modelers and the posers fight, the real enemy laughs. Ignorance.

At another site every few months someone posts a "Where are all the Traditional artists" or "Digital artists are taking over threads" or some such rot in the traditional arts forum.  Then they trot out the same tired horse, "Digital is too easy, can undo, etc". Its basically ignorance of what it takes to make a decent to good digital picture. "Some chick" is basically ignorant of what it takes to model and how to make a scene from scratch. Maybe folks like that should try to do stuff from scratch so they can feel/know what its like. Too bad we can't have a "Someone else's shoes day" at Renderosity.

At the end of the day, its the user not the tools that determines the quality of the picture.
I bet that if we took the best artist(s) here and put them against some of the hacks here and gave them a contest in which they could do what they want , use any software but they could only use cubes, the best artists will win because they know more than just software.

prop-osterous thread which should have died long ago.....let it go people :blink:

quit propping it up then man!

after a long reading session

Weeeeell, as i'm a poser user, i think i could expose my opinion about this.
The main matter is to tell if poser users are less or more valuable as 3d modellers. Honnestly, there's no reason to ask this question, because judging a picture by the tools used and not for its own quality is the most snobbish behaviour possible.
Orbital and Analog X have compared this hardware as a "barbie playing". In the facts i can't really blame their opinion, because it's a kind of simplification of its "way of creating", loading character, clothes figures, setting poses etc etc etc... So, compared to others picture fully modelised, are these works less valuables? The most i can say is to see what was the creative mood.
For sure, making a picture fully with poser (not renderig, making) is really faster than pure modellisation, but i don't think it automatically means there's no.... artistic or rationnal behaviour behind. Some people complained to see a lot of simplist works in the poser gallery, but it's like in any artistic medium, there's always good and bad works, the main problem is about what we (and the users) can do. Let them make not any evolution, or help them by noticing what they have to do? Then come another main problem the "artist" (as any user is called in RR) and the viewers' behaviour about PMP and comments. The ideal behaviour is to try to help in any comment, and litsening critics to get better. But for sure, if you don't care about the errors you see or you are not motivated to improve yourself...
The matter is poser, by its simplicity of using, is one of the most popular 3d hardware in these kind of communities. But others artist often combinate poser with others tools like cine 4d or 3ds. Honnestly, i try to interrest myself in the maximum of mediums. For sure the most of the pictures i can see are poser based, i sometime i discover really artpieces, sometimes i see some real horrors. Same thing in the fractal gallery, same thing in the photo gallery etc etc etc...
It's since 15 months i especially use poser as main tool, i try to improve my modelling skills with amapi and cine 4d at the same time, and i recently used 'toshop to finalise my poser works and giving a better aspect. I often take photos (i uploaded someones) and i draw a lot since i'm child (honnestly, i'm rather good in it)  Each picture i do takes me minimum 10 hours of work (making on poser and postworking on toshop) sometimes i finished a picture after more than 30. I always try to have the best result possible finding a natural pose, a good face expression, a right color harmony etc etc etc... Even if i make pin up pictures, even if i use poser, even if i have to deal with the available ressources and i haven't the level to create my own yet, i try to make something good, and i'm sure it's the case for a lot of poser users.
It's true that a lot of users i see in this community with a really high level merit to be better considered, but it's a matter linked to the galleries presentation, and a miss of curiosity of a lot of users. But we don't have to forget why we make art, for sure for sharing this in a community, but especially for our own pleasure...