"Everyone throws that word around. It does not have much meaning anymore."

Exactly. The real pro's stay away from Poser except for "throwaway" jobs like flyers for the local supermarket.

The "advanced hobbyists" OTOH will get their ego stroked if they can carry a box home with those three magic letters printed on top of it.
Some might actually use the "pro" features, but most will get it for the same reason soccer mom's use 4x4 trucks to drive their kids to school.

The term "pro" is pretty nebulous -- it's about like saying "hypoallergenic".  Whether or not something actually is one of those things lies within the experience, bias, and decision-making of the end user.

Is Poser the equal of 3ds Max?  Of course not......nor should it be expected to be.  But can Poser be used in conjunction with 3ds Max?  Of course it can.......and I've seen it done quite successfully.  Whether that's "pro" or not I leave up to others to decide.  I'm not that worried about the term.

I know that some people don't think so -- but $200 is cheap.  But just like with the word "pro": within certain obvious limits, the word "cheap" has to be defined by the end user..........

To me a real Pro would use any tool that has a use no matter what it's called or what anyone else thinks.

When I was building housing or doing commercial work, I would use anything that got the job done. I would see others try do do the same thing as me with fancier more expensive equipment and not do as good of a job and take longer.

A Pro tools doesn't make you a pro, a Pro knows how to use his tools.

Quote - To me a real Pro would use any tool that has a use no matter what it's called or what anyone else thinks.

Yep.

A Pro tools doesn't make you a pro, a Pro knows how to use his tools.
A Pro tools doesn't make you a pro, a Pro knows how to use his tools.
A Pro tools doesn't make you a pro, a Pro knows how to use his tools.

:thumbupboth:

Robert - btw.: you're right, a lot of Vespas nowadays around here.

I took my bike back to the street early this year, too...

Quote - A Pro tools doesn't make you a pro, a Pro knows how to use his tools.

Amen to that!

Still, there are some things that separate professional tools from hobbyist ones. One of those things is its ability to work well with other professional tools.
To get the job done, a professional will use a set of tools. There is no single tool that can do it all.
Side note: I teach at a University of Applied Scienses, Mediatechnology department. And I have a tough time getting it through the students' heads that Flash is NOT the all-in tool they think it is...
I'm a semi-pro when it comes to home improvement, and I've acquired a set of good quality tools. A $400 power drill might seem expensive when you can have one for less than $100, but this $400 power drill can punch a 20mm hole through 16 centimeters of reinforced concrete, while the $100 one cannot. And I need that feature.
Same goes for my battery drill: it's a $150 Metabo with a torque of over 30 Nm, while the $30-$70 hobbyist battery drills only have a torque of 7-10 Nm. Which means that the Metabo can drive in screws that the cheapo drills cannot.  It doesn't have a fancy LCD display showing the current RPM, but heck, who needs that?

Back on topic: Poser Pro definitely lacks some features that would make it a "Pro" tool. Most of all, it lacks featuers that allow it to be incorporated in an automated pipeline. Tools like Max or Maya are extensively scriptable, from the inside as well as from the outside. Heck, even Blender can be scripted from the outside, in that respect it is definitely more "Pro" than any incarnation of Poser.

Geez, folks.
Among professional 3d ARTISTS reputation is EVERYTHING.
There are tons and tons of people around with mad 3d skillz eager to slit each others throat just to get a bit closer to that job at Pixxar.

They might use Poser secretely to cut a corner, but you definitely won't see any Vicky renders proudly displayed in someone's portfolio.
Forget about Poser "getting someday the respect it deserves".
That train left the station long ago.

You can't buy a ready made toy car at your local WalMart and then hope to get "respect" from people who spend years to develop the skills needed to build a price -worthy scale model.
Yeah, your store bought toy car technically IS a scale model,too, but the judges are only interrested in it if you BUILT IT ALL YOURSELF.

Stop the denial. It just makes you look silly.

There is nothing wrong with using Poser, but most of us are NOT on the same level as your average MAX/MAYA user.
Not artistically and not technically.
Enjoy Poser for what IT IS.
Embrace being mediocre and enjoy the ride.

If you want more, there are lots of other possibilites.
But you will have to proof your skills to them.

And btw, a real pro will use the best tools he can afford because he knows that a low quality tool will at best cost him time and at worst can be downright dangerous to his health.

Working with stone knives and bearskins is not a virtue and should best be reserved for stranding in alternate timelines only.

Ditto that amen. I've managed to assemble a nice suite of tools for CG work, and wouldn't dream of claiming to be a 'pro' in any sense of the word at this time. Ghu knows I can't use Modo yet, or 94% of AE7Pro....and with the 6 day work week, it is going to take a hell of a lot longer than I would like to begin to master the basic functions (but one of these days.....). And back on topic, while I can work around the Kai Krause interface just fine, BH has a point about the lack of flexibility there. If not in the Px line, then the PxPro line should definitely have at least some customization of the interface possible beyond hiding things behind the viewport. And svdl is right on the missing minimums that should be packed under the 'Pro' banner. On the other hand, look at Vue. It wasn't Vue Pro that wound up in ILM's pipeline. It was Vue Infinite. But Pro was the testbed for the underpinnings of -most- of what went into Infinite. As this is the first PPro version, it's probably safe to say that they went conservative; breaking half the app to get a sexy pro look would have made them look just the opposite. But a 10 node network render system is not small change for an animator. It's nothing for a pro studio, which would need the potential for triple digit renderfarms, but for the small business it is a step up. We also don't know what changes are in the first stages of implementation. The last two surveys have had weightmapping included as a wanted feature, and I'm pretty sure that all the animators and quite a few of the single frame image creators asked for it. I'd be willing to bet that at least the stubs for some form of weightmapping exists in the code, just as the animation layers were present but not turned on in P6. SM has also said in releases that there are tweaks coming to both P7 and P7Pro. Maybe some of those missing features will get turned on, or at least hinted at existing in the next full release..... In the meantime, I'll enjoy the extra speed and stability that PPro has over P7, and when I upgrade the main box this year to full 64 bit, see how the networking works....

Ab't the tools:

There is a vast difference between using a laptop with a Wifi PC card in a coffee shop to serve web pages, and using a four-way sixteen-core HP DL-580 with 32Gb of RAM, a 4.5 Terabyte external fiber array, and a fiber connection to a load balancer with an OC-12 to shovel the bandwidth.

I'm not necessarily calling Poser the 'laptop' in that comparison (prolly more like a low-end 1U single-core server). While a professional can make do with either hypothetical setup, he or she is going to have an obvious preference.

Quote - Yeah, your store bought toy car technically IS a scale model,too, but the judges are only interrested in it if you BUILT IT ALL YOURSELF.

Depends on the judge. If the judge is a customer in the local advertising biz, and the result is appealing and pleasing, then who cares? OTOH, if the customer is a games developer or film producer, and must have perfectly clear title and copyright on the results and their components? Then Hell yes - it matters.

Most pro shops and houses require the kind of anal clarity in copyright and royalty that you see in the cgtalk crowd. It's not that they're snobs, it's that they make their living off of their skills, and by necessity they have to be able to build it from scratch if needs be.

I like the idea that Poser is shooting for the higher-end in some ways - mostly because it can open up a LOT of opportunities and options (e.g. a Linux version, or perhaps the ability to plug in any renderer you want) that would otherwise not happen. The only kick I have against it would be, well... it's that same feeling one gets when a 10-year-old kid shows up at a Major League Baseball game and demands to have a turn at bat.  It's obvious that the thing --while making progress, certainly-- isn't anywhere near ready for prime-time.

/P

Villains are always making fun of the Doctor's Sonic Screwdriver.... Until they see what he can do with it! :tt2:

*"Stop the denial. It just makes you look silly."

What denial. I have not seen one single remark that supports that statement. Not one single person here has said it was at the level of any high end app.

It is the dream of every 3D "pro" to work for Pixar.  Or at least so I've heard.

But of course: that greatly narrows down the field of people who can be regarded as 3D "pros".  Perhaps there are 3-to-4 hundred of them in existence in the entire world.  Everybody else is -- by definition -- a mere amateur wannabe.

BTW - I've known people who could afford to shell out for a $90,000 medium-format Hasselblad camera setup -- and who used it to take perfectly lousy pictures.  While I've known others who could work wonders of the photographic art with "K-Mart Special" types of cameras.

A pro isn't known by his tools -- he's known by his results (except, perhaps, in certain segments of the 3D world: where the software which is used to produce something matters more than the results themselves).  While it's true that the right types of tools can help to achieve desired ends: it's also true that the best tools which money can buy don't matter nearly so much as the competence & the talent of the tool's wielder.

Oh, yeah -- that photography example?  Ansel Adams achieved some of his best results with a Kodak Box Brownie.

But of course -- hobbyist or self-styled "pro" -- ours isn't the only field where people argue bitterly with each other over the importance of tools:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1032&message=27143857

I especially see parallels in the "Your Camera Doesn't Matter" article which that thread links to in the OP (Heh - the article even mentions Photoshop as being something that Ansel Adams didn't have -- and yet no one can match his work -- the article's claim, not mine):

http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm

Quote:

Maybe because it's entirely an artist's eye, patience and skill that makes an image and not his tools. Even Ansel said "The single most important component
of a camera is the twelve inches behind it."

But of course, the thread participants then begin to argue the point: and with reasoning which falls into a very familiar pattern.  They argue about ART and everything. snort

Now I have read through the whole thread and maybe, just maybe, this information passed through my skull hidden in a flock of lighting/collada/lowers figures oriented posts, or maybe it wasn't even there in the first place, but...
Having a P7 installed with an indecently large runtime in there, can I reuse this runtime "as is" in Poser Pro? I would go for the software if it provides decent improvements in terms of bug correction and lighting quality (plus that que rendering is sort of tempting) but if I have to reistall everything I will first have to cry a bit in my corner :)

I try to make it simple:

It's not $200 program vs $2000 program.

It's more skill vs. less skill.

If you can sculpt like Stahlberg, it doesn't matter if you used MAX or free Wings3d to do your art.
You still will get all the respect and praise from the professionals.

But It DOES matter if you sculpted your meshes all by yourself or not.

"Art" vs "not art" debates are just a waste of time.
Since people invented "concept art", everything can be called "art".

What the professionals MEAN is: "You have no skill besides loading Vicky, so why should I waste my time with you ?"

THAT's the point.
Accept the fact, swallow your pride, know your place and ENJOY Poser for what it is.

"Poser Pro" is not "not pro enough".

It's just that "Poser Pro" fits nicer on the boxtop than "Poser Advanced Amateur".

simontemplar, yes you can use your same Runtime. PP installs by itself, does not overwrite your P7. So you can just copy the P7 runtime to PP or just point PP to your P7 runtime or what ever other runtimes you have. You don't need to re-install any of your runtimes.

Thank you Tashar :)   That will certainly make my life easier... then again I have to find some room for PP now :D

Question two  actually... how does one manually point PP to use p7's runtime ?

Quote - It is the dream of every 3D "pro" to work for Pixar.  Or at least so I've heard.

Strawman argument. Pixar isn't the only joint in town.

Quote - While it's true that the right types of tools can help to achieve desired ends: it's also true that the best tools which money can buy don't matter nearly so much as the competence & the talent of the tool's wielder.

Another strawman argument: Nobody is saying anything at all about the user's skills - it's about the pretense of a program that claims to be professional level, but clearly is not. A skilled CG artist can probably construct a beautiful mesh entirely out of POV-Ray scripts, but it obviously hampers the timeline and workflow - for the artist as well as for his teammates who have to work with the results.

Take the low-poly meshes in PPro for instance: If you're spending vast amounts of time to modify the things for use, when someone else spends a fraction of the time grabbing pre-made chars or building their own that come out already usable for the project, while you're still struggling to morph and push yours into usability, then deal with fixing/redoing what the exporter didn't get?

That simply isn't professional-level, y'dig?

Bad car analogy time: If I worked as a car mechanic, I would vastly prefer using pneumatic socket wrenches to a manual ratchet with a screwdriver duct-taped onto the handle. ;)

Bad programmer analogy time: If my co-workers use and need C++ code from me, and I hand them Visual Basic script converted to C++? They (or I) will waste time picking through and cleaning out the inconsistencies and excess crap that got in there during that conversion process. I also wouldn't expect to keep my job for very long if that were the case.

/P

While we're on the subject of bad analogies: bad sculpting analogy --  I'm sure that Michelangelo had a lot of rock dust to sweep up, but I doubt that he ever lost his job for that reason.  And he did it all with hammers & chisels.  No Maya, no 3ds Max, no Lightwave, nothing.

While taken in a literally-minded sense, Pixar might not be the only joint in town -- saying so is to miss the point of the original comment. 

Quote - Another strawman argument: Nobody is saying anything at all about the user's skills - it's about the pretense of a program that claims to be professional level, but clearly is not. A skilled CG artist can probably construct a beautiful mesh entirely out of POV-Ray scripts, but it obviously hampers the timeline and workflow - for the artist as well as for his teammates who have to work with the results.

This second "strawman argument" is a merely an attempt to inverse the "strawman argument" that's it's supposedly a response to: thereby making it qualitatively the same .  Some are strongly implying that anyone who would use such a tool as Poser Pro is obviously an unskilled individual.  They'd have to be lacking in skill: or else they wouldn't use Poser.  Even in circumstances where Poser can get the job done 10-to-20 times faster.

Quote - I try to make it simple:

It's not $200 program vs $2000 program.

It's more skill vs. less skill.

If you can sculpt like Stahlberg, it doesn't matter if you used MAX or free Wings3d to do your art.
You still will get all the respect and praise from the professionals.

But It DOES matter if you sculpted your meshes all by yourself or not.

"Art" vs "not art" debates are just a waste of time.
Since people invented "concept art", everything can be called "art".

What the professionals MEAN is: "You have no skill besides loading Vicky, so why should I waste my time with you ?"

THAT's the point.
Accept the fact, swallow your pride, know your place and ENJOY Poser for what it is.

"Poser Pro" is not "not pro enough".

It's just that "Poser Pro" fits nicer on the boxtop than "Poser Advanced Amateur".

In an attempt to educate, I'll try to keep this simple:

FWIW, some of us have quite a bit of pricey "high end" software on our PC's, and at our beck & call.  But we still use Poser in the mix.

As for the "swallow the pride" aspect -- that's a hot one. :lol:

"FWIW, some of us have quite a bit of pricey "high end" software on our PC's, and at our beck & call.  But we still use Poser in the mix."

Shrug. Whatever.
Let's see what I have installed, hmm,,,There's ZB3, there's MAX 9, there's Hexagon, there's SILO 2, there's Bodypaint 3d.
"High end" enuff for ya ?

You constantly mix up completely different things.
Yeah, you can use Poser to get "things done".
Like you can use bondo to fix a ding in your Toyota.

But would you want to have a Ferrari or a vintage Buick fixed with filler ?
Nope, you'd pay a specialist to get the ding removed the RIGHT way.
Heating the metal, shrinking it, and smoothing it out again.No bondo, no quick-fix.
Just good ol' craftmanship.

Professionals use Poser like duct tape. It's great to safe time if quality isn't important.

But a professional 3d artist is expected to be able to deliver 100% quality if needed.
And that's what Poser users can't do because they lack the skills.

And that's why professional 3d artists will take Poser (and it's users), never seriously.
Some might be nicer than others, but to get genuine "respect", you (and Poser) have to be able to do A LOT more than just load and render premade content.

I have no problem with that because I know what I can and I know what I can not.

But obviously a lot of people can't stand the fact that there are other people around more capeable than they are, so they dream that if only Poser would "professionalize" enough, their own status might be elevated, too.

THAT's the problem.
We should root to make Poser a better POSER.
Not a MAX/MAYA "light".

So what your saying is, anyone that has poser in thier cg tool box has no skills and can't be professional. They should "know thier place" as you put it.

Can someone explain to me why I've seen poser used with other apps on the history channel? Didn't someone a couple of years ago say that Disney had some posters using P4 figures? Then there are adds in papers and TV.

Does this mean that none of those have any skills and are not professional and should know thier own place?

Ah, yes -- lacking any real arguments, it's always handy to dig into the "assigning questionable motives to your opponent" semantic bag of tricks -- i.e. "obviously a lot of people can't stand the fact that there are other people around more capeable [sic - they wear capes à la Superman, I suppose] than they are, so they dream that if only Poser would "professionalize" enough, their own status might be elevated, too."  The problem with reaching deep into the "assigning questionable motives" bag is that one tends to fall -- headfirst -- into it.  :biggrin:

An individual's internal "status" is their own -- not what others choose to assign to them.  If time is spent worrying & value assessed over the approval of crusading forumites -- then there's not much hope of ever achieving personal contentment in one's own work.  However: it's a good thing that self-appointed forum judges have all of the validity of.......self-appointed forum judges.  They are as worthy of being taken seriously as the level of seriousness which they endeavor (snort) to put on others.

I'm all for "making a better Poser".  A worthy goal.  And I have no doubts whatsoever about who shouldn't be put in charge of the project. 

Quote - So what your saying is, anyone that has poser in thier cg tool box has no skills and can't be professional. They should "know thier place" as you put it.

Can someone explain to me why I've seen poser used with other apps on the history channel? Didn't someone a couple of years ago say that Disney had some posters using P4 figures? Then there are adds in papers and TV.

Does this mean that none of those have any skills and are not professional and should know thier own place?

Tashar -- we're all supposed to salaam our betters while chanting "We're not worthy!", over and over again.  Everyone should know his or her place.  Especially when they find themselves standing (or perhaps sitting in front of their PC's) in the Presence of Royalty.  :ohmy:

 I think people are kidding themselves that poser will break into the professional market.  When an advert is looking for small 3d segment Poser may be used.  That doesn't it make it professional, just cheap and easy to use. When it comes to serious, creative, one of a kind animation, poser is left wanting.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themself. Poser has been left behind while other apps have pushed the envelope.  It's just a matter of time before the majority smell the bland coffee.  

Ahh, I see. Well, I've never been one that follows the rules. I'm one of those that won't shout, "car," just to see what happens.

Good thing that I don't like coffee.  As has already been hinted at: Poser is seen a lot on television & elsewhere.  Whether or not such uses qualify for the "professional" label is a matter of personal choice.  I choose to call an animated Posette being on the screen of the self check-outs at Wal Mart a "professional" use of the program -- not to mention numerous other uses found in advertising & television documentaries.

I'll be happy to use Max & V-Ray -- and Poser Pro.

*"I think people are kidding themselves that poser will break into the professional market.  When an advert is looking for small 3d segment Poser may be used.  That doesn't it make it professional, just cheap and easy to use. When it comes to serious, creative, one of a kind animation, poser is left wanting.

Anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themself. Poser has been left behind while other apps have pushed the envelope.  It's just a matter of time before the majority smell the bland coffee."*

I don't think anyone is kidding themselves with where poser is at . I think some are kidding themselves assuming we don't know. ( insert shrug shoulder smilie)

It depends on what you call "professional"

At my last job, we were developing Distance Learning material for a large Federal Agency.  When the question of Avatars came up, I pointed out that we could spend a lot of money on the "professional" programs like Maya (which we don't own or know), or we could just whip them up in Poser (which several of us putter around with).

But, since we are using poser I guess we are not "professional".

Quote - It is the dream of every 3D "pro" to work for Pixar.  Or at least so I've heard.

As far as I know, the pay over there is crap. I prefer Arch Viz, lot more money in it for regular people.

Quote - It depends on what you call "professional"

At my last job, we were developing Distance Learning material for a large Federal Agency.  When the question of Avatars came up, I pointed out that we could spend a lot of money on the "professional" programs like Maya (which we don't own or know), or we could just whip them up in Poser (which several of us putter around with).

But, since we are using poser I guess we are not "professional".

Don't forget the part about chanting "We're not worthy!" 

Quote - > Quote - It is the dream of every 3D "pro" to work for Pixar.  Or at least so I've heard.

As far as I know, the pay over there is crap. I prefer Arch Viz, lot more money in it for regular people.

Cheapskates, are they?  Yeah -- 3D is one of the few professions that I know of where working for a sweatshop for low pay qualifies one as a "professional".

Good thing that you have "regular joe" Arch Viz to fall back on. 

"....I think some are kidding themselves assuming we don't know."

Then explain the weekly bellyaching: "Them nasty mean ol' MAX/MAYA elitists. How DARE they declare my latest Vicky render to be NO ART" posts ?

Or the desperate attempts to inflict "professional weightmap rigging" onto the Poserverse so we finally can play with the big boys.?

Nope.
The majority live in a pink colored bubble, mollified by the idea that owning a credit card is all what's needed to be a real 3D ARTIST.

Of course "Buy our stuff and you'll be a cool 3d ARTIST" sounds much better than "Buy our stuff and be a virtual Barbie collector", doesn't it ?

And no, being paid neither makes you a true "professional" nor a true "artist".
Working hard to reach a certain degree of skill does.

Quote - The majority live in a pink colored bubble, mollified by the idea that owning a credit card is all what's needed to be a real 3D ARTIST.

Seeing pink bubbles, are we?  I've heard of seeing pink elephants, but that's a new one.

A credit card is virtually a necessity for any "real 3D ARTIST".  Or at least it is for anyone who wishes to purchase some software / hardware, or to access the internet.  It's true that not all credit card holders are 3D artists -- but I suspect that the vast majority of "3D ARTISTS" are credit card holders.  When it comes to 3D: the 'ol credit card is a valuable tool.  Essential, in fact.

Quote - Of course "Buy our stuff and you'll be a cool 3d ARTIST" sounds much better than "Buy our stuff and be a virtual Barbie collector", doesn't it ?

Of course "Buy our $7000 software package so that you can be regarded as a COOL 3D PROFESSIONAL" sounds a lot better than "Buy our expensive software and then spend a year modeling your own virtual Barbie!", doesn't it?

Quote - And no, being paid neither makes you a true "professional" nor a true "artist".
Working hard to reach a certain degree of skill does.

That's true -- it's always better to pride oneself as a True Professional via the agency of starving for one's art (uh......"Art") than it is to make filthy money so that you can afford to fork enough of it over to Autodesk, Maxon, Newtek, Luxology, et al in order to prove your credentials as a professional that way.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - It is the dream of every 3D "pro" to work for Pixar.  Or at least so I've heard.

As far as I know, the pay over there is crap. I prefer Arch Viz, lot more money in it for regular people.

Cheapskates, are they?  Yeah -- 3D is one of the few professions that I know of where working for a sweatshop for low pay qualifies one as a "professional". 

Yeah, because every kid with some talent and no business sense or appreciation for their own skills wants to work for them. They're usually flooded with talent willing to work for peanuts. Pixar and many other big name places. Similar with video game industry.

Kind of explains why all real artists are dead. They starved themselves to death. So on that, I guess these days you need to die before your a professional. Starved to death buying expensive apps and not making money because, " it's about the app, man," to prove your a professional.

Quote - "

Quote - "VSS is a soon-to-be-release freebie I'm making that works on any figure. I got this by doing one click.

Just curious where one would get the VSS?

Thanks!

*Working hard to reach a certain degree of skill does.

And a bit of imagination and inspiration and some emotional spirit does too...

I seen a lot of superb 3D "artworks" made by very talented 3D "artists" that miss all that, I know it looks sensational when you can make a 3D copy of David of Michelango with the latest version of 3dmax, and you will be praised. But is it art? No, it is just a skillfull  made copy of a statue made by a genius. It would be quicker, if you just scanned in the statue with a 3D-laserscanner and textured it. A modeller doesn't make an artist. You can spent  years and years on training on Maya and 3Dmax and endup as an underpaid modeller who mades the models and animations for some lousy dogfood commercial.
People forget that the real artists at the Disney studios made only charcoal or pencil sketches to show the animators how they wanted it. The animators and the people who coloured the animations were just labourman with a lousy salary. (Walt Disney was also famous for his greediness)

For me poser is a tool that I sometimes use profesionally, but most of the time just for fun, I don't get upset by people who look down on it, because they have  bigger tools. Poser does the job for me and that's it. One of the big advantages of poser is the enourmous amount of inexpensive content that's available. And although is hard to find a decent business suit between all the sexy lingerie and adventurous scifi-fantasy armour, it's available, so you don't have to spent weeks to make it.
For poser there is a market niche for interior- and furniture designers who want add some real looking people  to their design illustrations. And of course it's much cheaper than making the models yourself or hiring some professional.
 And FYI  this was my primal motif when I bought Poser 1.

Best regards,

Bopper.

Quote - "....I think some are kidding themselves assuming we don't know."

Then explain the weekly bellyaching: "Them nasty mean ol' MAX/MAYA elitists. How DARE they declare my latest Vicky render to be NO ART" posts ?

Maybe if the criticisms started out with things like, oh, comments on lighting, composition, perspective, and not the usual rants about 'using POS software to attempt to stand with the Ghhooods instead of a =REAL MAN's= app, you effin cheaters', there might be a bit less reaction from the Poser crowd. A large number of the 'pro' app users have proven themselves less than professional in opinions, attitudes, and responses. It takes two to tango, dude. > Quote -

Or the desperate attempts to inflict "professional weightmap rigging" onto the Poserverse so we finally can play with the big boys.?

???????? What wingnut said that? I know I mentioned weightmapping, because it tends to make organic joints behave better in bending. I don't give 3 flips and a tinkers damn if it's 'pro' or not. It could be abandoned tech for all of me. My concern is 'if it yields better results,' and there has been enough said about joint behavior over the years to warrant looking at something besides the spherical fall off boning scheme they currently have. > Quote -

Nope.
The majority live in a pink colored bubble, mollified by the idea that owning a credit card is all what's needed to be a real 3D ARTIST.

Of course "Buy our stuff and you'll be a cool 3d ARTIST" sounds much better than "Buy our stuff and be a virtual Barbie collector", doesn't it ?

And no, being paid neither makes you a true "professional" nor a true "artist".
Working hard to reach a certain degree of skill does.

"When someone sees the picture or animation that you have lit, they want to see a complete, believeable picture, not to hear excuses about which program you used." -Jeremy Birn...Digital Lighting & Rendering I have that highlighted in the book, and over my workspace. And you are right; the Edison principle still applies. Which is the reason I'm making my own animated shorts. But using Max or Maya does not give you any more artistic skill than having Poser on your HDD subtracts from it. I know what Poser is; a moderately capable animation system for B list actors. You know, the ones everyone recognizes and no one knows their names. Beyond that, any -character- the Barbie Doll mesh has is the result of a synergy between my scriptwriting, the voice actor, my keyframing and mocapping, lighting, camera angles, and set arrangement. So I buy content. If the eula that comes with it permits both private and professional usage, how is that any different that subcontracting out the meshwork, hmm? If you have no true need for the 'It's mine, mine, all MINE,Bwaahahahahahahaaaaaa' bit, why bother with the extra expense? Then we have the time issue. I'm pushing 50. I really don't have 10 years to waste learning an application and hopefully developing beyond the level of vertex pusher. I can better use that time to =create= something. And it doesn't matter if I use any of the Vickies, the kids, Natalia, Dina, Apollo, Judy, Jessie, the G2 lineup, etc. If I do my job right, that silly little mesh will transcend, and become a character that a viewer cares about. And that is the only true test of professionalism in visual media. Make your audience care.

Not sure why you quoted me?

I just left yours in for context... ;)

5/6/08

LOLOLOLOL!

Some of you folks are a riot. The faux seriousness and droll posturing is priceless. And I thought I was good at parody and satire. How can a lot of you people actually maintain a straight face while typing this stuff? It is worth a good snicker to read through the messages. How could anyone be offended at the lame contempt and preposterous lectures about what isn’t professional, and what isn’t art? Poser users are not taking this seriously, right? If not a good laugh, what else was I supposed to get out of this thread? ;)

LMK

Attached Link: VSS Preview Thread

Have a look through the thread. I'm not going to tell you the download yet. The download link is in the thread. Don't go unless you really are adventurous because it isn't finished yet and there are some issues. I want you to know the issues, thus you have to read the thread to find the download. But there are lots of good demo renders from different people - worth looking at even if you decide not to try it till its safe.

When it is really safe - I'll post a new thread.

Hey - sometimes comedy hurts, damn you! ;)

On a serious note, though - I like that Poser is moving in that direction, but it also has a very long way to go before anyone in the professional field will consider using it in a main workflow. The reasons why have nothing to do with skill, or with whether or not the results can be considered "art".

The reasons why have to do with the latter half of that word: "workflow". Does it provide a resource, or does it provide a hindrance? What exactly does it contribute to the toolset already on-hand (and invested in)? What benefits does it produce that aren't already in existing (or cheaper) tools? What exactly would justify the purchase?

Therein lies the rub - for now, there's nothing there to answer these questions.

It's a catch-22 of sorts: Graphics houses hire for skills within certain toolsets as well as results. Unless they can identify concrete benefits from adding Poser to their workflows, they won't specify it, and it won't be there, and won't be a professional standard.

It has nothing to do about whether or not you can make art with it, or whether or not you have skills with it. It has everything to do with those niggling little business and practical decisions that determine what is or is not a professional tool.

/P

Quote -
Of course "Buy our stuff and you'll be a cool 3d ARTIST" sounds much better than "Buy our stuff and be a virtual Barbie collector", doesn't it ?

Your very clear description of what I do as a hobby comes like a slap to the face. :(

I feel very very silly right now just so you know.

Maybe I can justify it like my novel writing... I don't create the words I just put them in an order that makes them more attractive then the next guy.

5/6/08

I like that Poser is moving at all, I think. It seems to have an amazing inertia to stand still though, or more exactly, to ooze in odd directions without a real plan for where it should go. I think the Poser product line needs vision and direction. The goal shouldn’t really be Poser 7 next SR, Poser Pro SR1, or Poser 8. Unless SM is really willing to pour money into development, I doubt that the Poser team can advance every aspect of Poser simultaneously. So, with a long way to go, what should be the goals (short term and long term)?

The professional field is extremely diverse. There are a lot of demands for graphic art, and animation. I can believe that Poser Pro does not fit well into the workflow of much of this business, but not every one works in large graphics houses. Is Poser climbing the rungs in any way toward the low end of this business (is it already on the first step)?

Isn’t the "professional standard" a moving target? There is no reason to believe that computers will not continue to grow in processing power, storage compactly, and communication speed. The whole computer industry seems to be poised on the edge of 64-bit. How would one advance Poser, or any other graphics product in this changing environment?

No matter how well some future version of Poser fits into a professional workflow, it will not make me a professional graphics artist. My future is unlikely to move in that direction. So, I like that Poser has things to offer to me as a hobbyist. I want to have fun with it, and for me, it makes the centerpiece of my workflow and investment. I don’t really care if this present version is called Poser Pro, or Poser 7.5, or Poser Other. Will Poser be able to be a player in both focuses (for hobbyists and "professionals")?

LMK

Quote - 5/6/08

LOLOLOLOL!

Some of you folks are a riot. The faux seriousness and droll posturing is priceless. And I thought I was good at parody and satire. How can a lot of you people actually maintain a straight face while typing this stuff? It is worth a good snicker to read through the messages. How could anyone be offended at the lame contempt and preposterous lectures about what isn’t professional, and what isn’t art? Poser users are not taking this seriously, right? If not a good laugh, what else was I supposed to get out of this thread? ;)

LMK

Ah -- somebody who gets it.............  And who said that my face was straight? 

Quote - When it is really safe - I'll post a new thread.

In the forums..........that might be a bit of a wait.