*LMAO...i had no idea my little itty bitty comment would create this long adn serious conversation eyes glazing over hee hee hee :)

Ahahahahaha!...snort!...AHAHAHAHAHA!...Did it curl your toes, too? 

LOL... so is the new one worth the price or? :)

That all depends on which one you buy and what you're trying to do. The base package has no content and I suppose it's stripped of some of the fancy plugins however program wise it's probably a step up from version 7. The full Pro version has the plugins, but again it depends on what you're trying to do. Also are you upgrading or a first time buyer would be another question I would ask myself. If you already own Poser 7 and you're not interest in putting content into a high end app and your computer is a 32 bit machine why is it worth it?

I'm not the Joker so don't ask why so serious. When you have a community as large as the Poser community is and as many people who have their time and money invested into it why shouldn't they voice their opinions and even have their say? Even vent some steam if they want. Go ahead and laugh if you want, you can do that too.

dogor,

Quote - I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

Like, what exactly?
Rigging in Poser is a major PITA. If you spend the same amount of time rigging comething in Max, you end up with much better results.

Pre Made content in, made for Max and in Max isn't any harder to use then pre made Content for Poser, and in Poser.

If you take 40 hours to, pose pre made content in Poser, render and animate it, you won't end up with nearly as good results as if you take that much time to do it with pre-made content in Max.

Not to mention that in Poser you're stuck with what someone else made for you, so if you actually have a good dose of creativity in you and some semblance of anatomical correctness, you'll find it stifling.

The only thing that makes poser appealing is the huge volume of inexpensive content available for it. Considering however that most people whom make the content can't make a decent living off of it is going to keep it at pretty low quality and hobby levels.

So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications.  This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight:  I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

Quote - "I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute." <<<<

Simplicity doesn't necessarily mean better.  Most pros don't get into higher end 3D apps because they are simple, they get into the higher end apps because they are far more capable. But, Cinema 4D with InterPoser Pro allows you to use Poser content just as easily as Poser ... and you can also get hair and cloth plugins for it that do a far better job than Poser's can.

Just two observations
--Poser was created for posing (remember wood mannequin in art school) not for made art by itself
--using content ,pre made or created by  yourself ,is like photographer locating some furnitures or searching a  good place or use some photoflood  for making the kind of photos is searching
:do you ask to phtographer to do the chair ,fabric the lights or sculpt the rock or create the person he photograph
the creation or recreation is inside you ,your art of seing,your imagination  etc not in the tools you use ,even these tools is a camera,a pencil,a computer, Poser or Maya or Zbrush soft

Everybody can hold the same pencil as Picasso but see what Picasso can do with this pencil 

Quote -
So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications.  This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight:  I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

Damn - now I'm sitting here with my panties all bunched and nowhere to go - lol.  Actually wanted to thank you, I think you made my point much better than I have to this stage.  Poser is a fine app, for what it does, but it is not a professional level app and most graphics pros readily acknowledge that fact.

In the $150 price range poser had a market.  In the $500 price range, I just don't see it.  If  I'm paying $500 for Poser I have enough to buy lightwave instead.  If I upgrade to the next version of poser when that comes out, that's another $200 right there - so if I skipped buying Poser and one upgrade for it I've got enough money for something like Modo instead.  Skip a couple of more upgrades and bingo, I've got enough to buy Max or perhaps even Maya.

Considering Poser track record on upgrades, for the most part your not looking at a whole lot of bang for your buck.  Often your spending a ton of money on upgrades to get bug fixes and minor feature improvements.  The firefly renderer itself really hasn't drastically improved for quite some time, the render quality is still sub par when compared to most other applications.

So yes, I use Poser at home and I like the app, I really do.  But I just don't see graphics pros flocking in droves to plunk down $500 on Poser for high end graphics work.  I don't see Max users buying Poser to supplement Max, or the Cinema 4d crowd, or most of the other higher end applications you can name.   Sure, their might be a few, but enough to make a market of?  Doubtful.  Especially not when your going to be losing your entrenched market rather quickly with the new nosebleed pricing schemes.

So no, I won't be upgrading to the new version of Poser anytime soon.  Doesn't make much sense for me to spend $200 for a "upgrade" to a program that I bought the full version for just a year or so ago for $150, particularly when most of the "upgraded" features really won't give me much benefit at all.

I really think SM missed the boat here - big time.  I just hope they realize it before they kill what is a great little app.

Attached Link: Cloud Striffe

I agree with that to a point ... Poser in the right hands can create some amazing art. However, most higher end applications have renderers that can render more quickly and at a higher quality than Poser's. Differences in materials, lighting, effects, and so on that REALLY make a difference in the final product ...

As an example. The linked Cinema 4D render blew me away ...

I don't think I've EVER seen a Poser render in which the materials approach that level of realism and detail ... and the render is incredibly sharp and rich. The lighting and shadows are perfect. Obviously, this image takes advantage of the features of Cinema 4D rather than just taking Poser content into it and pressing the Render button.

Now ... don't get me wrong ... there MIGHT be a very small number of Poser users that can get close to these results with Poser (after waiting eons for the render to finish), but most don't take the time to learn HOW to get these types of results. An image of that caliber is more than adding content to a scene, posing it, and rendering it ... it's tweaking settings for materials, lighting, shadows, and rendering until everything is perfect. And THAT is why simple isn't always better.

Word!  I mean come on! The amount of time people spend in this POS program staggers me.
What's the hold up on actually creating a decent program. This program isn't rocket science so, Why can't it actually work as advertised. Enough is enough already. Get out of this played out fantasy niche and actually create a professional program.

Quote - > Quote - I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

Like, what exactly?
Rigging in Poser is a major PITA. If you spend the same amount of time rigging comething in Max, you end up with much better results.

Pre Made content in, made for Max and in Max isn't any harder to use then pre made Content for Poser, and in Poser.

If you take 40 hours to, pose pre made content in Poser, render and animate it, you won't end up with nearly as good results as if you take that much time to do it with pre-made content in Max.

Not to mention that in Poser you're stuck with what someone else made for you, so if you actually have a good dose of creativity in you and some semblance of anatomical correctness, you'll find it stifling.

The only thing that makes poser appealing is the huge volume of inexpensive content available for it. Considering however that most people whom make the content can't make a decent living off of it is going to keep it at pretty low quality and hobby levels.

So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications.  This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight:  I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

What deecey said!

In the last year, I've been putting in a concerted effort to get more familiar and friendly with Poser renderering and materials. It's a really nice setup for a pretty simple application, and does the trick for a lot of things.

Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

Trying to compare Poser to high end apps would be a little like comparing a Toyota to a Jet. Both can get you from point A to point B, but in a different way, different time frame, different cost, different purpose, different capacity... They both have their purpose.

But, when a car driver tries to convince, or even persistently insist to a jet pilot that their toyota can do the same thing as a jet, well, it is very likely to encounter a bit of an annoyed attitude.
Toyota driver would be equally annoyed if a bycicle rider had the same isnistant (and non understanding) attitude towards them.

Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do. <<<

That Cinema render that I posted a link to also used Cinema's version of VRay. Boy, am I tempted! That render engine alone is twice the full version of Poser Pro. But .... WOW

I think Cinema's native renderer can do a super job too (with what little I know about it)

I made a decision to go with Vray mostly because for architectural viz, it's the industry standard. Also, what I learned about it so far, setting up nice realistic global illumination is very quick. It has a rollout panel with settings for it.

I haven't used it much, but I hear that mental ray, which comes with Max is really good too.

*Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

I agree.  I'd like to know why Poser is like this.  I mean Lightwave came with a 5 inch thick manual.  Along with that,  I can go to gnomon workshop,  newtek and cgsociety and get the answers I need, right away.  I don't have to spend days or weeks looking for arcane secrets.

It's almost as if Poser is meant for a select few that Hernandez shared the secrets with.

*Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

*Good for you!! But unfortunally most of us cannot afford anything beyond Poser :-( Even if I add up all the content I've bought for Poser and added all the version purchased until now I still wouldn't be able to pay for 3D Studio Max. But then to be honest I don't want to either, I love Poser's simplicity and they way it handles the job, just perfect for me.

No one is discrediting Poser.  We're just calling into question the Poser Pro nomenclature and pricing.

Quote - I agree.  I'd like to know why Poser is like this.  I mean Lightwave came with a 5 inch thick manual.  Along with that,  I can go to gnomon workshop,  newtek and cgsociety and get the answers I need, right away.  I don't have to spend days or weeks looking for arcane secrets.

It's almost as if Poser is meant for a select few that Hernandez shared the secrets with.

You forgot the virgin chicken didn't you ? Next time when you want something from the Poser manual, get the chicken first. A goat would be even better, but they're foul tempered things and may bite you so the chicken is probably safer.

LOL!  Great!  A sacrifice!  I should have known.  Here I've been tinkering with crystals and incense trying to conjure up the Poser 12.  Can I say the Poser 12?

Quote - Good for you!! But unfortunally most of us cannot afford anything beyond Poser :-( Even if I add up all the content I've bought for Poser and added all the version purchased until now I still wouldn't be able to pay for 3D Studio Max. But then to be honest I don't want to either, I love Poser's simplicity and they way it handles the job, just perfect for me.

No one is saying that you, or anyone else should discard Poser and go with Max, or Cinema or maya or any other high end applications. That kind of wasn't the point of the conversation.
Poser is great for a hobby and amateur and learning and even semi-professional level 3D.

What I was addressing with my comments is a statement (I think dogor made it) that things which poser can do, it does just as well and the big name apps. The reality is, it doesn't.
I like to use poser for many fun and hobby level things.
When I need professional looking results and productivity, it's not Poser or Poser Pro that I reach for.

5/20/08

"You forgot the virgin chicken didn't you ? Next time when you want something from the Poser manual, get the chicken first. A goat would be even better, but they're foul tempered things and may bite you so the chicken is probably safer."

Yes, but chickens have fowl tempers, especially if you call them "sweetie."

LMK

*Yes, but chickens have fowl tempers, especially if you call them "sweetie."

Whew!  Thanks for the heads up!  I've got the Poser manual on screen,  but it won't let me in without the secret password. 

Secret password is the answer to the question of which came first, Chicken or the egg. :tt2:

*Secret password is the answer to the question of which came first, Chicken or the egg.

Poser Saints be praised!  That's a start! 

Let's see there is Poser,
Daz Studio,
Carrara,
InterPoser for C4D,
Bryce Import via D/S,
Green Briar Studios Lightwave Plugin,
Did I miss one or two?

All this for Poser content. I wasn't asking what renders better or produces better because it's more complicated or sophisticated and COSTS a lot more by the way. I know there are programs that produce better graphics I've seen some of their renders advertising Poser content before. I asked, what does what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity just to hear what I might have missed. I thought nothing did because nothing else has all the same features together in one easy to use program.

Can you load Poser content directly into Max same as Poser? I've never heard that you could(I don't have Max so you know). I think Conniekat8 was talking about content loading in general, correct me if I'm wrong though. I'd like to know.

If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device. Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End". If that's an achievable goal at all sales volume and budget being considered before hand. In other words realistically speaking could it be done and make a profit and should it be done or should things stay the way they are? The contents not worth it, but then a high end app should be able to produce high end content too right?

dogor,

Quote - If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device.

I think so, yes. Or perhaps it's as 'pro' as they could make it under their new masters. I wonder what all eF had planned for PPro and how much had to be cut away in the end...

Quote - Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End".

If you want a pro wishlist then this is some of mine:

1. Plugin SDK with access to most parts of the poser architecture.

2. Support for sl so we can write and use custom shaders.

3. Multithreading of the cloth and hair rooms.

4. Support for advanced OpenGL/DX features including Cg and HLSL so that people can actually make good use of their fancy GPUs.

5. Support for more then 4 threads.

Note that none of those are flashy, 'wow, that's so pro !' features but rather tools which would go towards fixing the basic problems of poser. If we have a plugin SDK, then people can make (and sell) plugins that fix poser's joint system, it's UI, add native particles or anything else they can think of. If we have support for sl, we can make firefly 100x better then what it is like now. Multithreading the cloth and hair is also something that needs to be done if we ever want dynamic content to become popular. Cg and realtime shader support would mean that hardware rendering of poser scenes would become a great alternative for people doing anims.

As far as price point goes, is there really all that much difference between what CL charged for Poser ProPack?  IIRC, the price of the ProPack addon was somewhere in the $200 to $300 range.  For that you got the setup room, some plugins, and python scripting.  There might have been more that those seem to be the major ones. 

Now we have Poser Pro.  A $200 upgrade that can be likened to the old ProPack.  Only with this release you get a 64bit app, network rendering, HDRI, gamma correction and some plugins. 

If you compare the full cost of Poser Pro with the cost of buying Poser4 and ProPack, I don't think the price is all that different.

I've started on creating some content for Poser in my spare time, and I can say that if Smith Micro ever wants Poser to be considered a "pro" app they need to do something about the absurd camera and lighting interface that's in the software now. I can position a camera and create a lighting setup in 3DS Max in less than a minute, the same operations in Poser are a painful and protracted exercise in frustration.

Quote - What deecey said!

In the last year, I've been putting in a concerted effort to get more familiar and friendly with Poser renderering and materials. It's a really nice setup for a pretty simple application, and does the trick for a lot of things.

Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

Trying to compare Poser to high end apps would be a little like comparing a Toyota to a Jet. Both can get you from point A to point B, but in a different way, different time frame, different cost, different purpose, different capacity... They both have their purpose.

But, when a car driver tries to convince, or even persistently insist to a jet pilot that their toyota can do the same thing as a jet, well, it is very likely to encounter a bit of an annoyed attitude.
Toyota driver would be equally annoyed if a bycicle rider had the same isnistant (and non understanding) attitude towards them.

Well, the point many of us were trying to make was not that the Toyota is a bad way to get around, just that it seems silly for the makers of Toyota to start expecting you to pay "Jet" prices for it.

I really like Poser - get a lot of use out of it at home.  But it's not a pro level application and needs a huge overall before it could even come close to being considered a pro application.  A couple of extra features and some exporting importing utilities are not going to make most 3ds max users say "Hey, where can I go to give somebody my $500 for Poser?"

The point we were attempting to make wasn't that Poser is a bad program, merely that it is not now nor has it ever been a professional graphics app, and Smith Micro's strategy of going after the "pro" market is going to go over like a lead balloon.  It's just a horrible idea.  Most pro's have a very dim view of Poser to start with, and while the app does have it's advantages it's certainly no where near as feature rich as most of the stuff you can get in the $500 price range.

Quote - As far as price point goes, is there really all that much difference between what CL charged for Poser ProPack?  IIRC, the price of the ProPack addon was somewhere in the $200 to $300 range.  For that you got the setup room, some plugins, and python scripting.  There might have been more that those seem to be the major ones. 

Now we have Poser Pro.  A $200 upgrade that can be likened to the old ProPack.  Only with this release you get a 64bit app, network rendering, HDRI, gamma correction and some plugins. 

If you compare the full cost of Poser Pro with the cost of buying Poser4 and ProPack, I don't think the price is all that different.

Umm.. no, you don't get a 64 bit app - you get a 64 bit render engine.  Poser Pro itself is still a 32 bit application.  Only firefly was ported to 64 bit - so all in all the speed differential is miniscule.  Network rendering is a coolio idea, but not really all that useful to most home users.  Gamma correction is ok I suppose for those that render in Poser, but having seen the results I can tell you that it certainly isn't anything that will make you go "Woah".

The firefly renderer really hasn't improved in it's quality much at all, in fact other than a slight difference in lighting the top end settings still won't produce the sort of renders you can get from other 3d apps. 

HDRI sounds cool - useless to me and probably to a lot of the other folks that use poser.  As far as the plugins are concerned, they are all for interfacing with other, higher end graphics apps so there not of much use either unless you have 3ds Max, Maya or Cinema 4d and want to use them with Poser.

So all in all not a lot of value there for most, certainly not worth paying $200 for an upgrade version of a program that only cost $150 to buy the full version, and no way in hades is it worth $500 for those poor souls that don't already own a copy of 7.

But my concern and the concern of most people I think is more aobut the future of Poser.  If Smith Micro thinks they can jack prices that hard with some minor bug fixes and upgrades, what will they do if they ever manage to start addressing some of Posers real troublesome areas and come up with say, a render engine that isn't out classed by virtually every other render engine out there, including ones you can get for free off of sourceforge?

Boggles the mind.

Quote -
... Only firefly was ported to 64 bit - so all in all the speed differential is miniscule.....

But porting to 64 bit has nothing to do with speed. Usually a 64 bit version of an application is a little bit faster, but not that much.
The 64 bit is about memory. I already rendered scenes in P7Pro that were just plain impossible to render in P7, using 7 GB of address space.
I haven't tested yet what happens when FFRender needs more memory than is physically available, but if the programming is even halfway decent, it'll just requrest virtual memory - and should be able to use up to 128 GB of it.
Bugger the speed. It's the memory management! And that, for me, is the main feature of P7Pro. The PoserFusion plugins (Reiss BodyStudio unchanged, used to be $180 per - flaky and unstable - plugin), no, they're not even worth 2 cents. Collada export - haven't tested it yet, but could be useful. Normal mapping and gamma correction are minor improvements.

All in all, P7Pro is an upgrade to P7. At a stiff price, agreed, but not as extravagant as some posters seem to think it is.

Oh, and Pro? P7Pro is DEFINITELY NOT a professional application. It misses far to many essential professional features, like an SDK, a plugin architecture, full scriptability, and more. Integration into Max/Maya at the level of Poser integration with Vue/Cinema4D (via InterPoser Pro), well, that would be a nice start. But those Reiss BodyStudio plugins are total crap. Functionality is far too limited, and unstable to boot.

Quote - Let's see there is Poser,
Daz Studio,
Carrara,
InterPoser for C4D,
Bryce Import via D/S,
Green Briar Studios Lightwave Plugin,
Did I miss one or two?

All this for Poser content. I wasn't asking what renders better or produces better because it's more complicated or sophisticated and COSTS a lot more by the way. I know there are programs that produce better graphics I've seen some of their renders advertising Poser content before. I asked, what does what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity just to hear what I might have missed. I thought nothing did because nothing else has all the same features together in one easy to use program.

Can you load Poser content directly into Max same as Poser? I've never heard that you could(I don't have Max so you know). I think Conniekat8 was talking about content loading in general, correct me if I'm wrong though. I'd like to know.

If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device. Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End". If that's an achievable goal at all sales volume and budget being considered before hand. In other words realistically speaking could it be done and make a profit and should it be done or should things stay the way they are? The contents not worth it, but then a high end app should be able to produce high end content too right?

dogor,

You forgot Vue..... ;) And when you get down to it, nothing else has the features -in package- that Poser does. Do any of the Big Boys (tm) have dynamic cloth or strand based hair out of the box? Not unless you forked over more $$$ for the plugins (and keep Blender out of it; I specified the Big Boys...and the last thing Blender can claim is 'ease of use'...). Sure something like Saquatch can do hair far beyond what Poser is capable of.....the bloody pluging costs more than Poser Pro retail, last I checked (which may have changed since then). The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...and until they multithread & 64 bit Ubinary the core app, the cloth and hair, improve the collision detection system, expand the animation system to give better access to the key values of motion (they need to just make an animation 'room' and tailor the UI for that and that alone; those who don't animate can ignore the tab), and get some rigging improvements or expansions, it won't be even in the running. It'll never be useful for endstage rendering without major changes in the render engine, but if the animation capabilities get some spiffing up, then as a standalone animation app it could excel. Of course to some it will never be 'pro' unless it becomes a top end modelling app along with everything else....and winds up as expensive as a Max or Modo or XSI or Maya. But if you don't need the polygon tools or NURBs, why pay for them?

Quote - You forgot Vue..... ;) And when you get down to it, nothing else has the features -in package- that Poser does. Do any of the Big Boys (tm) have dynamic cloth or strand based hair out of the box? Not unless you forked over more $$$ for the plugins

Not true in all cases.  3dsmax has both dynamic cloth, and strand-based dynamic hair systems included "out of the box" so to speak.  It also has a world-class production render engine (Mental Ray), a highly complex node-based particle system (Particle Flow), and two different rigging types for character animation (Biped and Bones).

Quote -  The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...

Exactly! Poser Pro doesn't have 'PRO' type features, which is why I'm baffled that it's target audience seems to be professional level 3D.
Most people hoping for Poser 8 ended up buying Poser Pro. Now Poser 8's sales are going to suffer because of it... and they didn't bring very many new, little higher end, users in the fold.

Having Vue and Cararra in addition to Poser, I'm trying to figure out why on earth I would be interested in Poser Pro.

Quote - > Quote -  The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...

Exactly! Poser Pro doesn't have 'PRO' type features, which is why I'm baffled that it's target audience seems to be professional level 3D.
Most people hoping for Poser 8 ended up buying Poser Pro. Now Poser 8's sales are going to suffer because of it... and they didn't bring very many new, little higher end, users in the fold.

Having Vue and Cararra in addition to Poser, I'm trying to figure out why on earth I would be interested in Poser Pro.

Which is really what its all about.  Look, Poser Pro is a decent application, probably not worth the upgrade price for most but on the whole a good step up from Poser 7.  However, it is not going to have professional graphics people flocking too it from other applications, and its certainly not going to be picking up a lot of the new hobbiests out there at $500 a shot.  They have more or less conceded the entire hobbiest market by pricing themselves right out of the running.

So what happens now?  Sure, some of us will doubtless pay for the upgrade to Pro, and they might get a couple of folks who buy copies to integrate with higher end apps like Maya, 3ds max or cinema 4d - but they are not going to magically create this vast market of 3d pro's clamouring for there product.

So then what?  As a consequence of fewer new Poser users, the poser content community starts to suffer.  Fewer dollars to go around spent on content, content getsa  lot more competitive and prices drop there.  Better artists start leaving to create content for other programs where they can make more money.  Quality overall drops and content prices suffer even further.  Vicious cycle.

As Poser content declines, so declines Poser - since lets be honest here, it's availability of reasonably priced content that is Posers strongest selling point.  So either Smith Micro drops its prices out of the nosebleed section and tries to regain some market share in the hobbiest market, or they did what efrontier did and they try to sell the app to someone else and walk away.

Either way Poser suffers for SM's miscalculation of there market, only question is how bad.  I'm hoping it won't be too bad, fortunately Poser does have the advantages of strong entrenched market and a lot of great users who make it such a strong market.   But they won't wait around forever, if SM doesn't keep up on development and get it's pricing structure squared away, eventually they two will start seeking greener pastures.

I'd really hate to see that happen.  I get a lot of use out of Poser and I'd really like for the app continue to be developed and improved, but sadly I see Smith Micro's latest marketing ploy being about as welcome as a coyote at a road runner convention.  I just hope they don't do serious damage to the marketplace and to the application development cycle before this is all said and done.  I've seen apps that were every bit as popular as Poser is now die over miscalculations like this one.