Number one, there will be some changes for the Banners upload. Will make the full announcement with all the details for this one soon.

Number two, The Bryce Gallery has been sliding towards imagery with lots of postwork which can and will be considered Mixed medium artwork. There will be guidlines posted at the top of the forum and the Gallery in order to avoid any confusion. Those postings which clearly step over the guidelines will be moved to the Mixed medium Gallery. Anything borderlined will be discussed amongst staff.

Personally I prefer a good deal of Postwork in my artwork because I don't stop until I reach a desired effect. These images I post in Mixed medium because I believe I'ved crossed over the line of an image being predominantly Bryce. Simply put, if you can't tell it's mostly Bryce work, it's not. Just look at my gallery. Yes I know if I post in the Bryce Gallery I'll get more hits, but I prefer to be very clear with what I've created, what I use, and how fair it is to other Brycers.

Like I said, there will be Links at the top of both the Forum and Gallery to inform and maintain a fair playing feild for everyone.

There will also be plenty of notice in advance of these changes. As always everyone will have an opportunity to voice their opinion in a fair manner.

Finally, there will be one more surprise which I AM NOT letting out of the bag until it's set in Concrete.

Everyone have a Safe and Happy Halloween!!
ICM

Good stuff man...I was about to bring Post Work up but it seems 'Great Minds.......'. .. ...

"Finally, there will be one more surprise which I AM NOT letting out of the bag until it's set in Concrete."

Weeeell, if you're not going to say anything, then maybe we should make things up until you do :D

[start speculation]
A brand new feature where the 20 images that get the most... err ... lets call them points (all users and their clones are allowed to click a button on the gallery page to assign a point to an image) , are put onto a single page for all to see.  A point counts towards the point total for the image for one week after it was assigned..
[end speculation]

Hows that? :D

Get out your Pink Ponies too.............(shoots Flak in the mouse)LOL

ICM: Who thought this one up?

Personally I would want people to see what is possible using Bryce, but if it's moved to 'mixed medium' then nobody will know it's Bryce. What i'd like to see though, is those images that are Poser or DazStudio characters rendered in Bryce with no discernable Bryce modelling being moved out of there.... the Bryce gallery that is. However, I think I'd rather see Bryce modelled scenes that include postwork remain in the Bryce gallery.

Perhaps you could give some examples just so as we understand, which constitutes Bryce, and which should be mixed medium.

I can understand the need to separate Pure Bryce from Bryce with lots of postwork, or even any postwork.

But I admit that I too do not like the idea of Bryce created (even if not finished) images leaving the Bryce...fold.

BTW, the post work I was mentioning was the images that don't look like Bryce anymore  from use of filter etc. in Photoshop/PSP etc., so I am in favour of Minor post work staying in Bryce. The thing that bugs me more than anything is the one's who are simply using Bryce as a render engine for DAZ/Poser...an awful waste of a great app to *not use any of it's features , *and as these images tend to have more DAZ/Poser content than Bryce content I'd be in favour of moving these to their respective DAZ or Poser gallery...my 2 cents Canadian.. ...

No offense, but words don't really describe what you mean. Can someone at least post some links to images to give comparisons... my gallery is open to debate of what constitutes a bryce  or mixed scene if that helps..

The scantily clad poser figure rendered in Bryce gets my goat up far more than any postwork issues, though I do understand the point.

*ICM: Who thought this one up?

*B, this has been a question of fair application for a long time, and is also part of Renderosity as a whole. If you cruise through other Forums and galleries you can see where the focus is on the Program of interest while showcasing, experimenting, and learning in that enviroment.
Once the artwork or project becomes intertwined with alternative software and resource material, it changes the original intent, and changes the showcase value of the gallery.

My Gallery is a very good example of what I'm talking about. A good Bryce composition with some postwork to enhance the image, or to create a style of presentation is fine. Then there are those that I've used components of Bryce while mixed and used with other software to create the final image, those I've placed in Mixed Medium or 2D galleries.

To be Continued.....

With responses here and through IM's, I'm glad to have brought this up and am thrilled with the concerns.

To give you all some real "Nuts & Bolts" as far as what has provoked this situation.
Each day I check the gallery to cover Mod duties, here are some of the issues.
(NO NAMES ARE TO BE USED HERE)

Images that have a Bryce based background, the rest of the image is comprised of Photos Cut & Pasted for the main subject matter.

Images Rendered in Bryce and have had so many Filters applied in a 2D editor, you can't tell it's Bryce anymore.

Images that are collages of Bryce renders, Abstracts, 2D editing with text and tubes, etc.
.........................................................................

I'm not looking to hammer out every piece that has some postwork or presentation accent.
These are (as stated in many of your responses) the small enhancments that really shocase what Bryce can do.......and whatever it can't do........the forum is here to iron out questions people have to acheive desired results.

There are Great artists here that use Lots of postwork to enhance lighting, DOF, remove Jaggies and Polygon lines, these are fine. If you had a contract with a Publication, (Which we've already seen here) these finished products would be expected to be clean and polished.
No good piece of work is going away from here on those premises.

There are times when I scratch my head as to why an artist chooses Bryce for JUST the render engine, imports a Poser figure, and makes a portrait style image. Poser has a fantastic Render engine and Lighting controls. However, One of the great things about Bryce is that it imports relatively easy, and we can all agree, once you're comfortable with an interface, the workflow and creativity steps up a notch. So it leaves me with a sense of knowing what a Great program this really is.

To be Continued.........

I will not single out any one image or example, if you cruise the gallery on a daily basis, understand all the subtle nuances between Newbies, Part timers, talented artistes, purists, different styles of genre, then you'll begin to understand what I'm talking about.

Better yet, cruise my Gallery, I'm more constringent on "HOW" I post my own work.

To be Continued.........

Why not seperate Bryce into two categories...Pure Bryce and Bryce with postwork?

Because Postwork is fine, and we already have a Gallery for "Mixed Medium".

I think something should be done with the Bryce challenge since you bring this up.... when is it 'Bryce' and when is it 'mixed'. If it's a Bryce challenge then surely it should be Bryce......

I agree in principle with what you say Terry, as my advice to anyone learning Bryce is learn to make your own stuff. The only problem is that many people who are beginners would not join in with the challenges. For me the challenges are a way of learning, especially for the new guys and a great way to get people involved with the community here.
I'll admit when I first started out that I would download models to use in my scenes. But as you get more familiar with the app you can then start to introduce your own stuff. Also for others modelling is either too time consuming when relating to real life issues, and some people can never get the hang of it no matter how hard they try.
As for the postwork issue well it's a tough one to judge. I use postwork and on occasion perhaps I've crossed the line. But in most cases it will be the sky and atmosphere that I tweak and all my models have been made by me with Bryce which time wise is where the majority of my time is spent.
I'm sure ICM'S idea is within the best interests of Bryce. My only concern is that by moving peoples work into another gallery  might cause ructions. We then get a scenario where people start to judge others work to harshly for the use of postwork and end up losing a vital part of the community.

Well this is why it's called a challenge, and beginners work should but judged by the fact that they are new at it. If the idea of the challenge is to learn as well, then thats how it should be. When seasoned users are still importing things as the main part of the scene, which is something that could at least be attempted with Bryce modelling, well that ain't Bryce.
I'm no expert, what I learned, I learned by doing, and but seeing how others do it. There is simply no excuse why anyone cannot try to learn this way. When imports come into Bryce and those import play a large part in the scene, then it's no longer Bryce IMO. 
Maybe TheBrysters purist approach has rubbed off on me.

*quote

I'm sure ICM'S idea is within the best interests of Bryce. My only concern is that by moving peoples work into another gallery  might cause ructions.

*They can cause all the ructions they want, ...........if they choose to create MIXED MEDIUM images and post them to the Bryce Gallery........They have made their own choice based on the rules.

quote

When imports come into Bryce and those import play a large part in the scene, then it's no longer Bryce IMO.

*Please contact the creators of Bryce and have them REMOVE the IMPORTS OPTION.

I'm sending examples of the Gallery postings to you to give you a CLEAR example.
(THESE NAMES ARE NOT TO BE MADE PUBLIC!!)

'Please contact the creators of Bryce and have them REMOVE the IMPORTS OPTION.'

I did say a large part of the scene ICM, so there really is no need for sarcasm.

Well i've seen the links, but I still question using an import which is the main theme, part or what ever distinctive thing in the scene, it is not a Bryce scene. If one uses more Bryce modelling than imports then that is ok in my opinion. If my opinion is worth anything....but yeah I know we've been down that road before.

My apologies for the sarcasm.

@ICM. I noted the 11 minute gap between your 4th and 5th post in this thread. Was that because you were laughing? I usually do when i have just used the words POSER and CREATIVITY in the same paragraph.

I think we are getting too carried away with this...if we say that to post an image in the Bryce gallery that you cannot use imported figures or objects as a central element in your image,regardless of whether or not you could have created them yourself,then you are stifling the artist's creativity...and if this applies to Bryce,then it had better apply to Vue,Carrara and all other apps that do not allow the creation of figures etc. within them.Are we prepared to go this far?I see where dhama is coming from,and where ICM's points are valid,but Bryce allows the importing of objects,it's part of the application.It allows the use of photos on 2D planes to be inserted in to cut down render time and populate scenes with detail,in fact there are tutorials on this very site that show this.I create models in Bryce,I enjoy the challenge and the creation of a final product,but I also choose to use models from Daz when I feel they work better or cut down on time(which is often a factor in real life).Why can't we simply state what has been done with our image...postwork in various programs,models imported and /or created and what was Bryce in origin and leave it at that?I try to make the viewer aware of all that is not a Bryce application in my upload information so as not to cause confusion for newcomers to the software that can't figure out why they can't find that area of the app to do the same...and I will often explain how I arrived at that point,not to toot my own horn,but to help others to find new areas to explore.A lot of us here,myself included,are not professionals or overly experienced in 3D applications and Bryce has an easy learning curve and interface.Why stifle creativity and possibly deter people from just enjoying making art for arts sake by sticking to a purist ideal.Simply show all that was done both in and out of Bryce,accept that Bryce was the software used to render,and allow the art to stand for itself!

Quote - My apologies for the sarcasm.

Thats ok mate, was a little pissed at something else that switched off the logical side of my brain for a little while. I apologise too.

Quote - ....I see where dhama is coming from,and where ICM's points are valid,but Bryce allows the importing of objects,it's part of the application.!

Agreed, but in my opinion, when someone say for instance imports a poser character and then renders it with a sparse Bryce built background, That is not a Bryce scene.
My definition of a Bryce scene is, where the main topic, theme or otherwise is built in Bryce with what Bryce has to offer, irregardless of wether one imports a few simple items.... as long as the main theme is Bryce built.

At the beginning of this thread, I thought, the main theme was POSTWORK....and not the import of objects, or not? Everything what is possible to do with bryce itself should be posted in the bryce-gallery. Everyrthing from outside bryce is not pure bryce, but mixed medium. ....yes, so easy it could be!!!!

In hope you can understand my Germanish-English?:-)

PS: I am back again, from a longer summer-break.
...and I never used postwork on my images!!!!!!!

Allibaba

A discussion a so much controversy, since we have several tendencies. 
I never used postwork, to not to be to include frame and signature, but I am not against postwork. 
The fact is that: If some details be just imported of other tools I don't consider the image as not pure Bryce. 
If Bryce be limited in some points (and he is) it justifies the import of objects that I cannot do with Bryce. 
Fantastic trabalhso exist signed by Vue, Daz, Bryce, Terragen among others that they were concluded largely by tools of retouchings, and nor for that they will leave of they be them same. 
To limit the use of Bryce or of any other tool it is to define your death. 
I will continue to be puristic until the day in that Bryce not to be permitted more to use him/it, but I won't stop eulogizing a good work where there was postwork. 
 
Excuse me for the translation. 
 
Hugs

*@ICM. I noted the 11 minute gap between your 4th and 5th post in this thread. Was that because you were laughing? I usually do when i have just used the words POSER and CREATIVITY in the same paragraph.

***Cyba_Storm, please dont discount Poser so quick, there have been some phenominal artists that use Some or all Poser stuff.

just a couple, there's lots more
Some
hobbit

All
BigT**

No indeed, theres is nothing wrong with poser, just that the poser gallery has too many quick load/posed characters that quite frankly have this shocked looked on their faces.... but who can blame them LOL!

@ICM. If you check my favorites you will note a large number of them are Poser Images. I agree there are people out there that can make that progran sing, BUT most of them can't . And I mean most. There are probably 100,000 poser users on this site,and 100 that can use it. One in a 1000 is not a great strike rate.

I know as moderator in what was originally a Poser community you have to defend it, but seriously once you move out of the Poser Community most other member think the majority of art work with a Poser tag is rubbish.

Dare I enter this fray?

I agree there folks that upload daily into Bryce gallery that just seem to be Poser models with a stock pose, placed on a feebie model, pasted on a downloaded background.  There is too much of this, imho.  The quality of the Bryce gallery suffers as a whole because of it.  I can understand why ICM would want to improve this situation;but.....

Drawing a line in the sand would be difficult.  It would be nearly as difficult in describing "what is art".  Ruling out all images that were not "pure" by dhama's description would be closing one's eyes to some powerful features of our favorite app. 

I would be disappointed if I had an image pulled and stuck in mixed media because I used geocontrol generated terrain or an effect added by importing an apophysis flame when it was Bryce that allowed me this freedom.  

Brycetech selected one of my images to use on the back of his most recent Bryce tutorial CD.  Guess what,  it was an image where Daz Mil Dragon was the main subject, blended in to an apophysis background, and postworked for smoothing and some detail.  I guess he and his staff that selected the image were heretic to have chosen the image???

Is Carrara/RDS gallery going to implement the same standards??  There are more poser peeps there than in Bryce gallery.

Please all keep in mind I am not opposed to this change.  I am just airing some things that come to mind in trying to choose where to set the guidelines.

I kindly offer that our mod's current avatar is from a scene posted in Bryce gallery.  How would you determine it would stay in Bryce and others he posted in mixed-media would not:  You see the point I am making, Rod.  You would be leaving a lot open to judgment and opinion.

OK, Guess I have to send you the same examples and clear up the muddied waters for you.
What I send you IS NOT TO BE MADE PUBLIC....NO NAMES

Before anyone else fogs up the matter anymore, Please Review my Gallery, then Look at the Bryce Gallery and note images with PhotoPasties as the main subject, and 2D Tubes and other Pasties......These are what craosses the line into Mixed Medium. Then go to Mixed Medium, Lots of heavy mixes of Software usage and Non Bryce Resources that make the image something that DOES NOT look like Bryce work. COMON, you know what a Bryce image looks like even with some post work.

My Gallery is carefully chosen.......when I pass the mark in the sand the makes my image a non Bryce image.....It's VERY clear.

Thanks for the IM.  I knew exactly who and what you were referring to.   Everyone please understand my example of ICM's avatar example was to point out it will be sometimes a difficult judgment.   Once the guidelines are posted, I hope everyone will self police their posting and make the mods job easy and non-controversial by accepting the judgment.

MY POV is this:

**Firstly, IF everything in a Bryce scene, is imported into Bryce, be it a 2d.lst tube,  or Obp's, it's a Bryce scene, especially if the ONLY PW is for signature, as the majority of my work is!
**

Secondly, as an contributing artist here, IMHO, the mark of a truly good artist & art,  is knowing "when  to let go," there is such a state of obsessive tweak-tweak-tweaking; it actually spills over into other life activities in diverse forms,  "power-tripping" being a prominent example. 

But what do I know?  I'm just a 60 year old retired Behavioral Psychologist who dabbles in 3D art mediums.
 

May I just ask one thing ICM, is everything in my gallery that is marked Bryce consistent with what one would call a Bryce scene?

What about the use of DOF??? I use the DOF mask in some of my Bryce renders and then use it in PS CS 2 to get that depth work tweaked. Would that be mixed media, when it originally was done in Bryce and tweaked in Photoshop????

*May I just ask one thing ICM, is everything in my gallery that is marked Bryce consistent with what one would call a Bryce scene?

*dhama, have you added pieces of photos in a 2D editor as your main subject?, have you used tubes & or brushes to paint in more than 50% of your subject matter, or have you changed the entire look of the rendered image with 2D Filters?

*What about the use of DOF??? I use the DOF mask in some of my Bryce renders and then use it in PS CS 2 to get that depth work tweaked. Would that be mixed media, when it originally was done in Bryce and tweaked in Photoshop????

*Thunderstone, You used a DOF Mask rendered in Bryce, and it's original design intention IS to be used in a 2D editor just for DOF.
 
Did  you add pieces of photos in a 2D editor as your main subject?, have you used tubes & or brushes to paint in more than 50% of your subject matter, or have you changed the entire look of the rendered image with 2D Filters?

Quote - Thunderstone, You used a DOF Mask rendered in Bryce, and it's original design intention IS to be used in a 2D editor just for DOF.
 
Did  you add pieces of photos in a 2D editor as your main subject?, have you used tubes & or brushes to paint in more than 50% of your subject matter, or have you changed the entire look of the rendered image with 2D Filters?

ICM,
Nope, I don't use tubes as for changing the look of the rendered item, I can honestly say that any changes made, were done inside Bryce, PERIOD!
(With the exception of adding a frame and/or signature to the piece.)

The matter at hand is going to be focused on images that have been changed by over processing and adding things to a render that were not originally in the render.

Brushes & tubes from a 2D editor, Clips from Photos and other images not rendered in bryce, Filters applied to completely change the look of the render.

When you've taken a Bryce Render and Mixed your talents into the image by using other resources and imagery.

I cant Make a Bryce Render, Paste some Photos to it and post that image in the Photo Gallery.

THAT IS WHAT MIXED MEDIUM GALLERY IS FOR!!!!!!

What about desaturating, or converting a native render to B&W, in an image editor to achieve an effect which you gotta admit would be difficult, but not impossible in Bryce. Would that be considered acceptable? If the Bryce native render was unaltered any other way?

Using a desat w/ color change to create a sepia antique style image is fine............

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1617924

Here I changed an all grayscale render to sepia and added a presentation style.

I didn't paste a clip art or photographic Biker dude, Or make flames all around it with
PS-brushes........just basic postwork.

Read the comment with the image.

What you are referring to then are elements added after a render, like images superimposed onto a render. And, other renders that have been altered with 'filter effects' that change the render into a 2D image.

If that is it in nutshell, then I am in total agreement.

Whew, that only took one week. I was getting tuckered out. ROFLMAO

Abbot & Costello

Agentsmith & Draculaz

ICM & dhama

Pinky and the Brain.

I think I'm losing the will to live.

Sometimes words are not enough...... but maybe if you'd explained it as eliquently and to the point as I...... :laugh:

:glare:

ROFL@RJ!