NOTE: the following is slanted for my needs as a story-teller/film maker. So it is for animation, not primarily modeling or still renders. YMMV.

I have been moving toward translating my 3D work from Poser to a new primary application. The main reason I am moving out of Poser:  a)  limitations of Posers dynamic hair module; b) seeking better animation tools; c) lighting and render power; d) joining a pro community.

There remains deep respect for Poser. It was intended to be an artist-assist reference application and has grown up tremendously to be nearly a pro application and the entryway to 3D for a zillion people.

I have been looking at 3DSMax quite seriously, but am now more inclined towards LightWave. Cinema with Interposer is still sitting there as an option, certainly.

One of the reasons, quite frankly, that Lightwave is attracting me is price. If my plans go forward, I will need multiple seats. The root license structures for Cinema and Max are in the $2800 - $3400 range by the time you are done. XSI is also 'sitting there" in the same price range. Not only is the street price of Lightwave under $1000, but NewTek's strong license transfer policy means that you can legally and smoothly obtain packages from other users for less than that.

http://www.newtek.com/lightwave/

I am not leaving Poser. I want it as my character setup room. The tremendous asset flow, both free and paid, I would not be without. I can spin and morphbrush my preferred base human mesh, V4, into any character I want in Poser, male or female. Obviously this provides maximum choice of skins, since with the texture transfer tools from DAZ, everything for V3, V4, M3, M4 and more is at my disposal. With the wealth of clothing mesh/texture, also, these assets hopefully will be importable into Lightwave to surround my character and get the native Lightwave ClothFX treatment. Since there is a lo-res version of V4, the "heavy mesh" issue is minimal.

So, how to get content over?

Breaking it into two categories,

"Hosting" which means that you perform most of your work in Poser and then 'get it to open' in Lightwave for lighting and render only. Any changes have to be made in Poser and re-opened in Lightwave.

"Transfer of Assets" which means mesh, textures, rigging and morphs actually end up in Lightwave as Lightwave assets, and you go from there. Mostly, I just am pushing for mesh and texture maps and possibly facial morphs. I believe I will be tossing out any transferred Poser rig and rigging fresh in Lightwave.

I have not yet explored these options directly. I have a big Poser project to finish first. So, all I am doing right now is reading forum threads and product pages. I hope to install Lightwave on a trial basis within 10 days and get serious.

Transfer of assets:

1. PLK  http://www.kurvstudios.com/software/
2. COLLADA or FBX export/import from DazStudio or PoserPro
3. T4D Plugin  http://www.thomas4d.com/html/t4d_rigging_tools.html
4. Poser has lightwave export. I have no idea how that works or what "goes over".
5. Your garden-variety .obj to .obj export/import

"Hosting"

1. "Point Cloud" transfer via .mdd format  http://www.vuescripts.com/_A/index.php?index
2. PoserFusion, which is part of PoserPro

Comments welcome

::::: Opera :::::
 

Note: I am quite excited by the free

T4D Plugin  http://www.thomas4d.com/html/t4d_rigging_tools.html

It comes with a fully Lightwave-rigged lo-res version of Victoria!

::::: Opera :::::

Lightwave is very good software, I dont have tried now in version 8 or early but using ClothFX or SoftFX in high density meshs was a great problem in the past...  but now Lightwave have its internal hair system that is pretty amazing... send news when you tried all this tools togheter. I was a Lightwave user for long time but I like more to create illustration so I decided to use Carrara that can support content in a very easy way now and have a very good and fast render engine.

Several years ago, I was looking at my first "post-Poser" application so I tried Lightwave. Its interface is...unique. I don't know how much it's changed since then but I thought that dividing the modeller and the animation into two separate programs was counter intuitive. I didn't much care for the way the menu items sat on the screen (rather than the usual method of collapsing under a menubar). I was very impressed with the render quality.

Personally, i would not go the hosting route. I'm a bigger fan of the obj / obj import /export. It's a little more work (usually the rigging will be better) but only needs to be performed once and makes the asset almost native to the app.

I'm glad you mentioned the low res V4. I just got finished rigging her last night and very excited to start some animation tests. Geez, outside of the obvious, I can't understand why lo res characters are slow to get to market (a 40k poly reduced res M3 doesn't qualify as lo res).

The Daz official lo-res V4 is 17K poly and free!.

When you say "i just got finished rigging her" do you mean rigging her in Lightwave?

A lot of people comment about model and animation being two different programs but that is not a detriment for me.

Poser Oro has lightwave export now.. wouldn't that be the best option?
 

"I just got finished rigging her" in Maya. Imported the obj (which is divided into > 100 pieces, then combined), created new skeleton, bound skin to skeleton, painted weight maps. The weight map part is the most time consuming and generally improves on the way shoulder / hip deformations look in Poser. This is all really a test - the "real" version will carry the morphs, a 2K version will be "wrap deformed" to the 17K version (speed the weight painting, animates and updates very quickly in the viewport) custom preset poses and other goodies.

With DAZ studio and the free V4, there are four lo res models; the 17k is the only one with individual toes. Otherwise I really like the 4K model.

Gareee you mean Poser pro, right? PoserPro comes with PoserFusion which is hosting for Poser scenes in Lightwave for lighting and render only.

Is that what you were referring to? I have that in the post.

::::: Opera :::::

replicand yes there are several LOD versions of V4, each a subdivide of the next. So you rigged the 4K version for Maya, wow.

You could probably market that rig to other Maya people.

::::: Opera :::::

Attached Link: http://NikkiSprite.com

I've been eyeing the Kurv Studios converter. Supposedly it will convert geometry, riggs and basic matts. This could be a great tool if it performs as advertised...

Theres Greenbriers plugins too.

You can get Lightwave at student price if you buy it with Dans 3dgarage courseware. You can the upgrade to full license later. If you dont expect to be outputting commercial work in the first 6 months that might be an option for you.

Wow that is a cool pipeline. Once I get my lightwave installed I'll pull down a trial version of PLK and see. I really like the idea of separate "pads" with which to select and manipulate a rig. Poser would be a much nicer animation tool with something like that.

::::: Opera :::::

Geeze, edit closed on the first post.....

Adding Greenbriar plugins to the list of possibilities for content transfer into Lightwave.

http://www.greenbriarstudio.com/3D/index.htm

::::: Opera :::::

Yep.. I've heard good things about poser fusion, with it even supporting animations, but I've never really tinkered with it over just importing one or two things to see if it worked.

(What I was tinkering with worked fine, BTW.)

I certainly hope PoserFusion works as advertised, as I had big problems with it when I bought it as "BodyStudio" back in the day.

Important to know, however: PoserFusion is "Hosting". All you can do with it in Lightwave is light the scene and render the still or animation. That's it. No bones, no morphs, etc. Someone correct me if I am mistaken about that.

Now that might be all that is needed if one is going to rig and morph in Lightwave. But do you get groups? Don't know.

::::: Opera :::::

Opera, thanks for starting this thread. Thanks everyone for contributing here. I've learned alot already.

Lightwave looks like a great 'Pro' tool for utilizing DAZ and Poser assets.

Question: What is the importance of low res (low poly count mesh)? I'm a Carrara user so this is new to me. I've always thought higher res gives a more realistic look to figures, especially when posing and animating. So I'm confused as to why low res is preferable in Lightwave.

ironically, when looking into the "Pro" applications such as Max, Maya, Cinema, Lightwave....

that world is accustomed to and leveraged for much lower poly mesh than Poser and Daz!

Why? Well, they grew up over time when computers were not as powerful, and in a professional production setting laggy viewport and render were intolerable. Hence, low poly.

Also, the destination of much of this is to games, where the characters have to react in real time. You can't have high-poly.

So, for anything seeming to call fo hi-res figures, the policy was to subdivide at the last minute. You deploy the low res version (for example the 4K V4 mentioned above) in the viewport, and then just before render you "subdivide". So, IK vickie becomes 4k Vickie becomes 17K vickie becomes 68K vicky.
 
The poser/daz world has a different focus. HiRes from the start so users don't have to manipulate.

Recently all the pro apps have improved viewport performance and of course computers keep getting more powerful. This consideration is lessening. But not going away!

::::: Opera :::::

That makes sense.

Lightwave it is...time to take the leap.

Suggtest trying before leaping! Trial version available

Quote - ironically, when looking into the "Pro" applications such as Max, Maya, Cinema, Lightwave....

that world is accustomed to and leveraged for much lower poly mesh than Poser and Daz!

Why? Well, they grew up over time when computers were not as powerful, and in a professional production setting laggy viewport and render were intolerable. Hence, low poly.

Also, the destination of much of this is to games, where the characters have to react in real time. You can't have high-poly.

So, for anything seeming to call fo hi-res figures, the policy was to subdivide at the last minute. You deploy the low res version (for example the 4K V4 mentioned above) in the viewport, and then just before render you "subdivide". So, IK vickie becomes 4k Vickie becomes 17K vickie becomes 68K vicky.
 
The poser/daz world has a different focus. HiRes from the start so users don't have to manipulate.

Recently all the pro apps have improved viewport performance and of course computers keep getting more powerful. This consideration is lessening. But not going away!

::::: Opera :::::

One other reason is rigging.  It's much easier and faster to paint weight maps on a figure of say 10k polys than it is one of 80k polys or whatever Poser figures are.  You can set up much more complex animation controllers far easier, and get better bending, etc. if you don't have to deal with tens of thousands of vertices in critical areas (like shoulders and hips).  Realistic details can be added to the subdivided mesh through displacement or normals mapping.  Plus, this allows for much faster communication with whatever renderer you are using, so scenes will arguably render faster too.  Zbrush and Mudbox (combined with high end renderers like MentalRay) have allowed studios to take this to a whole other level now.

@ devilsreject- Great argument for low res.

@ Opera.
Good advice...I'll download the trial version and start on the tutorials this weekend, then make a decision.

 In response to your earlier post, I wanted to clarify that I rigged V4 17k polys because I want her toes (that sounds so bad), but I would use the 4k poly model as the "control cage". I would prefer to use only the 4K poly model, but as mentioned, it doesn't have toes.

I would also like to clarify that lo poly models aren't just limited to games; they are used quite often in film utilizing PRman's rendertime subD smoothing. This is all severely off-topic.

I do hope, though, that Lightwave works better for you than it did for me. I couldn't wrap my mind around the interface. I would still caution against hosting solutions - import and convert is my mantra.

Yes I am not interested in the hosting solution but some reading this....it might be excellent for their needs.

I don't think your post was too off-topic.

::::: Opera :::::

I would think that just the price and features would make deciding to buy/use Lightwave or Poser Pro a no-brainer.

Just dont go to any Newtek forums looking for alot of help with your poser import scenario
there is still alot of anti-poser sentiment  in many of those pro forums.

Hi wolf I agree there is generally a lot of that out there. I have gotten into it on occasion.

This situation is different, somehow. So far the threads on the NewTek forums have been cordial and matter-of-fact.

:: og ::

Good to hear about the attitudes

I was Newtek  lightwaver for a while( Version 6-7.5) but i finally abandoned it  to commit fully to Cinema4D
Glad i did now that IPP is here with its full poser runtime/format support

I spent years painstakingly exprting meshes from Poser to LW.
One full mesh export from Poser for each morph and then creating endomorphs in LW.
I have the base characters set up so that additional morphs can be applied to them as needed.
All clothing and props are separate.
I have a standard rig for each character which doesn't change.
I 'dress' each character in modeler where hidden body geometry is simply deleted.
IMHO this is the only way to go.
Compared to 'hosting' LW does a much better job of deforming the models.

I would never consider 'hosting'.

Alvertt, after you take the character into modeler, fit clothing and delete unseen body geometry, can you stil "clothify" just the clothing and run simulation on it? I am referring to using the new ClothFX in Lightwave 9.5.

There is also a place for a separate model for a piece of clothing that collides with the human and moves around. Loose clothing like a long nightgown.

::::: Opera :::::

I don't know 9.5, but once an object is a generic LW mesh/rig/scene anything is possible ;)

Yes you can use ClothFX even in Vic arms (you can set the breasth to use SoftFX)... at same time you can create proxy objects to collide and not use the Vic body, like Alvett said everything is possible.

Cool. I am on my way in over the next 2 weeks, especially over Thanksgiving weekend.

Well, if this "Jello" clip is any indication, I'd say that using ClothFX for realistic breast physics should be considered a done deal!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKH9T1tpt4s

::::: Opera :::::

I have to say that ClothFX, Softbody and hard body in Lightwave works pretty well... I already saw people using clothFX in polygonal hair to take it  better move.

What are the most creative approaches to hair? Sasquatch? What about HairFX I wonder if that is coming?  You mention polygonal hair.  Can you describe that approach?

Thanks

::::: Opera :::::

IMHO, I have found Kosaburos' hair works out the best. There isn't even a single hair item I have found anywhere that looks anywhere as near realistic. As I don't do animation, it works out OK for me. GKDantas is talking about useing a mesh like from Kosaburo and turning it into a cloth material so that it moves around during an animation.

"MeniThings" first made this technique noteworthy and there is an example on their site.

I am only animation so I am seeking simulated movement. The idea of 'poly' hair put into my head 20,000 poly objects parented to a head, all with physics applied, and shaders.

The subject of taking prop hair like Koz and animating the 'elements' of it? I tried that in Poser with Wild Hair without very realistic results. I'm going to look up MeniThings in the forums to see how far he/she got.

I can't use Koz hair for anything because of the hightlights painted onto the textures.

::::: Opera :::::

http://www.menithings.com/main.php?action=movies&movie_id=9

I am into photorealism, but this is the best example around.

OK, I just watched that again myself and cringe it didn't seem to move around much. It was featured in a Lightwave demo explaining it and it seemed to move around a lot more...

And i have to say he thing I find most time saving from a work flow perspective is that you get nearly ALL of poser functionality including simply loading and conforming directly from your existing poser runtimes.
as many separate runtimes as you desire.
you get all the  poser morph dials and you can import animated PZ2 from carefully tweaked animations youve set up in posers gragh editor or even EXPORTED  from Daz studiothat you've made with the  aniMate plugin.
I dont have the Hair module for C4D so I cant comment on how wellit works with a
poser asset.
Just be aware the NONE of the pro apps currently transfer poser Shaders
so you will have to substitute with an in app solution for skins.

(Attached pics of the IPP poser interface)

........

Yes, I did a trial of Cinema, that was before the trial could save so I couldn't get anywhere. Now I understand their trial can save. I also pulled down Interposer trial at that time and saw the potential pipeline.

Yes the shaders will have to be recreated in any app I send Poser content into.

Thanks Wolf, believe me I am still eyeing Cinema, although if I were to figure out how to fund a studio at that price level, I'd proabably go for Max because of my son's involvement in it.

::::: Opera :::::

anyway here is a full yrigged V4 in the R11 Demo  that i imported from Daz studio Via Colladda

Yes i am slow about these things because: 1) hyper-heavy day job contracts and 2) I keep finding ways to extend Poser!

::::: Opera :::::

Opera, the new HairFX from Lightwave is very powerfull and works almost the same way that Carrara hair (for brush and things like that), Sasquatch is an old fashion hair, but its a post effect so you cant render under certain conditions and is very slow. The new hair system was a plugin for Lightwave in the past and use a new way to add hair to object and its very fantastic job that you can see at Newtek forums.
The Polygonal hair is used in a Manga way: you can make some polys flay away to simulate hair move, and work very well for some cases.

yes, i clothified some mesh hair in Poser once to drive manga hair, that worked "okay."

So Lightwave has both HairFX and Cloth FX. Cool.

operaguy,

I'm guessing you've already gone through the current cloth issue of 3D World mag.  I haven't had time to.  Was there any workflow presented in it that you found informative?

No! My subscription ended about 8 months ago and low on cash not renewed. Can you please tell me the issue number?

::::: Opera:::::

Issue 110.  In stores now in the US.

A parallel PoserToLightwave thread in the NewTek forum is getting interesting. Not only is there no sign of anti-Poser disdain, but a pro there "SplineGod" is revealing his pipeline and showing pro vids from Animal Planet, etc., with DazPoser assets front and center.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?p=783430#post783430

::::: Opera :::::