I understood it, but you missed the point, it dont matter how much you spend, I am a customer, again back in my old job a small Mom and Pop business were treated the same as a Major OEM.

And again read I am not out there asking for and glam for advertizing I passed on the info about what I was using, and VUE has been one of them. Good for you on getting your work on their product.

JCD, I'm curious about one thing:

Judging by the posts I see in many threads, it does seem that there are far more bugs in Vue for Mac than for Windows. Given that for you, for example, Vue seems like an important part of your work and a PC costs less than $1000, why don't you buy a PC to have side by side with your Mac? You'd use this PC for running Vue only (and maybe also Geocontrol, which doesn't have a Mac version). Having a 2nd machine is even good in terms of workflow because you could render in one machine while you're working in the other.

Quote - "I understood it, but you missed the point, it dont matter how much you spend, I am a customer, again back in my old job a small Mom and Pop business were treated the same as a Major OEM."

Just out of curiosity, is this company still in business? :-) Do they still have the same policy regardless of the crysis? I ask this because it doesn't seem like a wise policy to me... Especially if cost reduction is an issue, as is normally the case.

Yeah I agree with that, I do have a Mac myself. I have never ran VUE on it, it's good for final cut express amazing program. I now use a desktop for my graphics, the laptop for the net. Plus they are networked. I built the desktop for $750 with an Intel I7 in it.

Yes they still are in Business, If they were not the country would grind to a halt.

Quote - JCD, I'm curious about one thing:

Judging by the posts I see in many threads, it does seem that there are far more bugs in Vue for Mac than for Windows. Given that for you, for example, Vue seems like an important part of your work and a PC costs less than $1000, why don't you buy a PC to have side by side with your Mac? You'd use this PC for running Vue only (and maybe also Geocontrol, which doesn't have a Mac version). Having a 2nd machine is even good in terms of workflow because you could render in one machine while you're working in the other.

He doesn't need to, just do what I do. The Mac Pro can easily become a dedicated Windows OS PC on a separate hard drive and then you just boot on startup into which OS you want to use. Keep the Mac OS on drive bay #1 and the Windows OS on drive bay #2. Simple as pie and you don't need another PC to do it.

The thought of buying a PC for Vue has crossed my mind as I've tried running it under Parallels loaded with XP with pretty disastrous results. I'm not a PC guy by any stretch, but Windows seemed to not like accessing a Mac video card which wasn't a big surprise, nor something I expected great results from. I do run GeoControl, UVMapper Pro and a handful of other PC apps under Parallels, but I bought those knowing their wasn't a Mac version and after successfully running a demo on my Mac/PC hybrid setup.

My dig there is that e-on sold me a Mac version of their software, so dropping another $XXX on hardware to run the PC version of the app I paid for is a workaround at best. Had e-on informed me that their Mac product was flaky and that I should really have a PC and run their more stable PC version, I would have factored that in at the time of purchase and it would have been my own fault for going with the Mac product. Ugh.

"E-on software's products are available worldwide ... for both Microsoft Windows and Apple Computer's Mac OS X platforms, making full use of the native software and hardware acceleration."**
**
This quote is taken from the 'about' section  of e-on's web site. So I interpret it as 'our software works just as well on Macs and on PCs.'  Combined with their specification of system requirement it constitutes the premise that a buyer can expect vue to work on a mac.
That's why suggesting to mac users to use a PC is almost irrelevant. I took the information they provided on their site with me to the apple shop when I bought my computer to make sure it complies with their specification. It did then and it still does. It isnt a special arrangement of hardware - just a standard macbook pro, I only added memory to it.  So there is no excuse for it not to work. V6 worked very well. V7 doesnt. It isnt my 'personal' problem, many (very capable) users have problems. Why is it so surprising that we want the problem fixed?
If they decide to drop the mac platform - so be it. At the moment they claim it's supported - so let them support it!

As a side note - Chipp said e-on feels Apple is unreasonably forcing them to use Apple's tools - I dont know which tools these are, but isnt that inconsistent with the statement I quoted above? they claim to make use of platform specific  'hardware and software'?

Quote - > Quote - JCD

dumb question but...
have you turned OFF "Limit open gl polygons"? :)

Yup, I've gone through all of the display settings and nothing makes a difference on this... I wish it was just that though.

As for my hardware configuration, my main machine (and the one the grabs are from) is a Mac Pro 2x 3.0GHz Dual-Core Xeon,16GB RAM, ATI Radeon X1900 XT 512MB. I've also tried 7.4 on the Mac Pro I keep in my office at work that has the same issue and it's a 2x 2.26GHz Quad-Core Xeon,12GB RAM, NVIDIA GeForce GT120 512MB. I don't recall their specific configs, but I also tried a later model G5 and my three current laptops - two 15" MacBook Pros and a 13" MacBook - none of which worked better or worse than my main machine. That said, I truly think there is an issue with the software as that's a pretty reasonable hardware spread to have the same issues on across the board.

All I'm asking for here is for e-on to acknowledge the issues and get them fixed. This is not a $15 piece of shareware that I'm trying to get something fixed on, this is a pretty expensive piece of software I paid $395 to upgrade from Vue 6 Infinite to Vue 7 Infinite and now that they've apparently got some of the issues working in 7.5, they want another $295 for me to upgrade again!? A quick look at their online store and you'll see that upgrading from Vue 6 Infinite to 7.5 Infinite is just $395, so basically I could have saved the four bills from my upgrade to 7, used them to upgrade directly to 7.5 and be money ahead. I guess they figure I paid early so that I could 'enjoy' using version 7 all this time, yet it's really done little more than give me a few more gray hairs and played a part-time role as a renderer for Vue 6.

I still don't know if 7.5 is that much better, but at this point it does actually display the scene correctly and that certainly has me holding out hope for my favorite application. I just wish e-on would make good on all of the non-functional upgrades to 7 made by faithful Mac users as there are quite a few of us that feel pretty screwed at this point. :unsure:

I have nearly the same Mac Pro as you (see my signature) and seen those same issues and even have a thread about it. If you need help, feel free to PM me as I can assist quite a bit in the Mac/Vue issues. There does indeed seem to be more bugs in the Mac version as both you and I have seen first hand. One of them was documented by e-on, but there was no solution because it will have to be fixed. They said a patch for 7.4 was coming, which I think is in Beta now, but don't hold my breath for fixing the issue you and I have seen as you outlined above. NOTE: I too have tried playing with the OpenGL settings, turning things off, going from "better" to "faster", etc. and nothing helped me either. However, this only happens for me with LARGE scenes, "cloud layers" in the "atmosphere editor" and a couple of other intensive tasks.This is NOT an issue nearly as much, if at all, in the Windows OS version, which is 64 bit of course.

There are also differences in render times between the Mac and PC versions that e-on has told me they are working on, but nothing fixed as of yet.

I share your feelings on the need for e-on to get all these bugs worked out, especially on the Mac. There is no reason to have to duel-boot just because of some bugs that should be fixed or one being better than the other. Granted, the speed issues should be seen on Windows because it is 64 bit, but as far as bugs are concerned, those should be gone and the software should work as well as any OS version.

If you need help if you decide to duel-boot let me know. Remember, right now Windows 7 RC is free and the upgrade was just $99 on Amazon.com (which may be over now I think). I got 2 copies myself coming. That way I have the best of both worlds.

My point regarding usage of Vue in a Mac OS is simply this:

Yes, you're right, e-on does say Vue runs in it. However, practice shows that it doesn't run as well as in a Windows. If a Mac user 'suffers' because he/she can't run Vue, this user has two basic options:

1. he/she can insist and insist with e-on until Vue runs in Mac as well as in Windows. Until that happens, this user will not be able to use Vue adequately.

2. he/she can run Vue in Windows. According to 3DNeo, this user wouldn't even need to buy a PC, he/she could run it in a Mac running Windows. In the worst case scenario, the user would need to buy a PC (less than $1000) and even take additional advantages out of it.

I must admit that I completely fail to understand the logic of the users who opt for alternative 1. It simply doesn't seem logic to me, it seems like a stubborn, self-destructive, policy, leading only to aggravation. I would really like to understand... :-)

Quote - "E-on software's products are available worldwide ... for both Microsoft Windows and Apple Computer's Mac OS X platforms, making full use of the native software and hardware acceleration."**
**
This quote is taken from the 'about' section  of e-on's web site. So I interpret it as 'our software works just as well on Macs and on PCs.'  Combined with their specification of system requirement it constitutes the premise that a buyer can expect vue to work on a mac.
That's why suggesting to mac users to use a PC is almost irrelevant. I took the information they provided on their site with me to the apple shop when I bought my computer to make sure it complies with their specification. It did then and it still does. It isnt a special arrangement of hardware - just a standard macbook pro, I only added memory to it.  So there is no excuse for it not to work. V6 worked very well. V7 doesnt. It isnt my 'personal' problem, many (very capable) users have problems. Why is it so surprising that we want the problem fixed?
If they decide to drop the mac platform - so be it. At the moment they claim it's supported - so let them support it!

As a side note - Chipp said e-on feels Apple is unreasonably forcing them to use Apple's tools - I dont know which tools these are, but isnt that inconsistent with the statement I quoted above? they claim to make use of platform specific  'hardware and software'?

Apple is NOT forcing anyone to do anything that Microsoft has not done either.

I think where the rub is for some of us Mac users here is that e-on says they are making and supporting a Mac product, yet providing an inferior version to their Windows counterpart. That did not sit well either for ZBrush users as was written about in 3D World in two articles this past year. They seem to be doing a little better now, but many are taking a wait and see approach.

As you state, if companies like e-on or others want to drop the Mac platform, fine, but they do say it is fully supported and nothing about one version being superior to another that is more refined. Again, I have heard these same points being made by MANY Mac users about ZBrush too. I think that companies like them just don't have either the money or the required programmers in place to keep pace with both platforms and they are going to have to make some choices soon because they will lose customers. Either pull it together or let it go. It's amazing companies that do it right like C4D don't have this problem.

Quote - My point regarding usage of Vue in a Mac OS is simply this:

Yes, you're right, e-on does say Vue runs in it. However, practice shows that it doesn't run as well as in a Windows. If a Mac user 'suffers' because he/she can't run Vue, this user has two basic options:

1. he/she can insist and insist with e-on until Vue runs in Mac as well as in Windows. Until that happens, this user will not be able to use Vue adequately.

2. he/she can run Vue in Windows. According to 3DNeo, this user wouldn't even need to buy a PC, he/she could run it in a Mac running Windows. In the worst case scenario, the user would need to buy a PC (less than $1000) and even take additional advantages out of it.

I must admit that I completely fail to understand the logic of the users who opt for alternative 1. It simply doesn't seem logic to me, it seems like a stubborn, self-destructive, policy, leading only to aggravation. I would really like to understand... :-)

Simply put into context, if you buy something, especially in the price range of Vue and are told it works on both platforms then it should regardless. Yes, we all know that it is better as are others like ZBrush on Windows OS. But you paid for a license that was said it CAN work on a specific platform you want to use yet are forced to use another OS because of it not being true.

You once spoke about "value" and "cost" in another topic that I will got go into again. However, this applies here too. One entered in good faith agreement with a party by purchasing a license to use their software legally at a great expense yet were unaware that one platform was superior (at this time) to another.

A company should not have to be called out and have users get upset with them over something that is at the very least poor customer service and poor programming. One version should not have more bugs than another or function better. As mentioned time and again, C4D does not have these issues and I love the way they do things. They should not have any of these issues to begin with just by the nature of being a professional company. Now, I am not just saying that is e-on only as it applies to others like ZBrush too.

Bottom line is ALL of them need to get their collective act together and decide if they want to go all in and support both OS platforms or cut their development costs and focus only on one. Doing just half way and half right is a recipe for total disaster.

Mazak

3DNeo, I fully agree with you. I also said in the previous post that ArtPearl was right too. No doubt Vue should run well in both platforms.

But one thing is what it should do and a different thing is what it does, and what we're going to do about it. Like I wrote in the previous post, we have two alternatives. You chose alternative 2, correctly, I think. ArtPearl chose alternative 1. This is what I don't understand.

While that may work great, the only problem with option two IMHO is that it takes your Mac offline and that's not an option me. It sucks that Vue won't run via Parallels as that would be an ok interim fix. Aside from my hobby art and illustration work, I use my Mac to make a living, so at any given time it might be rendering video in FInal Cut and After Effects, have one of a dozen publications I'm designing in InDesign, be dealing with massive Photoshop files in various states of completion and of course running my business, answering emails, listening to iTunes, etc. Booting in Windows would take all of those simultaneous activities offline unless of course I duplicated/setup their PC equivalents and that just seems like a lot of extra work.

All that aside, I simply like working on a Mac as it does it all, does it adeptly and doesn't require me to play IT guy to keep it working. Hell, that's why I got a Mac to begin with ;)

Quote - While that may work great, the only problem with option two IMHO is that it takes your Mac offline and that's not an option me. It sucks that Vue won't run via Parallels as that would be an ok interim fix. Aside from my hobby art and illustration work, I use my Mac to make a living, so at any given time it might be rendering video in FInal Cut and After Effects, have one of a dozen publications I'm designing in InDesign, be dealing with massive Photoshop files in various states of completion and of course running my business, answering emails, listening to iTunes, etc. Booting in Windows would take all of those simultaneous activities offline unless of course I duplicated/setup their PC equivalents and that just seems like a lot of extra work.

All that aside, I simply like working on a Mac as it does it all, does it adeptly and doesn't require me to play IT guy to keep it working. Hell, that's why I got a Mac to begin with ;)

I can feel what you are saying because I too use my Mac Pro for business and as a hobby for my 3D work. Right now I work with Final Cut Express and Dreamweaver a lot for developing web sites. I use the other tools as you, like the iLife programs and such. For me, I can wait until I have time to play with my 3D art so that way it doesn't matter if I have to boot into Windows. Also, my USB key solution works great for dumping the files and working on the project in the evening or when time permits. I find Photoshop just fine in the Mac as well so no worries there.

One thing I do want to point out to you is you keep referring to VM machines like "Parallels" and "Fusion". However, you should know that is is a technical fact that VM machines are NOT meant to run anything close to a labor intensive application, especially something like Vue, ZBrush, Modo, etc. That goes for games as well. All they are really meant for is for something like Word or a program that is simple like a Windows program for programming a remote control and other minor applications. Attempting to run a complex program in a VM would be like asking a 1 ton elephant to run 100MPH.

Hope things work out for you, there is no easy solution right now except for that native dedicated option for duel-booting.

JCD
Windws Vista on a recent good spec machine is very simple, very stable :)
So, there's no need for being an "IT guy"... :p

Quote - One thing I do want to point out to you is you keep referring to VM machines like "Parallels" and "Fusion". However, you should know that is is a technical fact that VM machines are NOT meant to run anything close to a labor intensive application, especially something like Vue, ZBrush, Modo, etc. That goes for games as well. All they are really meant for is for something like Word or a program that is simple like a Windows program for programming a remote control and other minor applications. Attempting to run a complex program in a VM would be like asking a 1 ton elephant to run 100MPH.

Oh totally, I have an old version of Max that I installed for kicks and just like Vue, I went in expecting the least... I was able to do some file conversions and was amazed it would stay lit long enough to make that happen. Parallels (especially v.4) runs great for the lightweight stuff like PC browser testing, UVMapper, some goofy Java apps that are PC only and to install the occasional vintage Daz product using the PC installer since the Mac ones are OS9 only... we won't get into that one though ;)

Quote - JCD
Windws Vista on a recent good spec machine is very simple, very stable :)
So, there's no need for being an "IT guy"... :p

That may be the case and worth looking into if I go the stand alone PC route, but as it is now, I seem to have to install some sort of patch or update or something every other time I launch XP and at least once a month it gets hosed up... luckily being a VM, I keep a clean copy of the virtual PC and simply copy the clean one over the hosed one and life is good again.

I'm certainly not trying to start a Mac/PC thing, but that has been my experience with running Windows. Admittedly, I'm a Mac user that's a little out of his element with XP and very well may be doing something to screw it up

 I don't know how many folks who post here actually have created and supported commercial cross-platform builds of the same product -- for Macs and PCs.

We have. And after a couple years of trying to deal with Apple's dot.dot upgrades, we had to finally quit.

The fact is, Apple changes/modifies their libraries in dot.dot updates, which affects MANY programs. For us it was their constant meddling with WebKit which we finally decided wasn't worth marketing our product anymore.

In over three years of development and support, we modified and tweaked our code for Windows once and for Apple at least a dozen times. With Cocoa, their Objective C programming environment, much of this is abstracted, but if you write code for Macs in other environments (Carbon), you're on your own.

Not only do you have to fix the problem, but you also have to provide retro-fixes for past versions as well-- this means we might have to end up supporting over a dozen variation of WebKit on different Macs! Just too much to keep up with for a small shop like ours.

ArtPearl says:

Quote - As a side note - Chipp said e-on feels Apple is unreasonably forcing them to use Apple's tools - I dont know which tools these are, but isnt that inconsistent with the statement I quoted above? they claim to make use of platform specific  'hardware and software'?

Absolutely not. Until very recently, one can program the Mac via Cocoa or Carbon. But the fact is now you pretty much need to use Cocoa (XCode) in order to access the 64-bit capabilities of some Macs. And as we all know, a 8Gig Mac running in 32-bit mode only allows access to a couple of the Gbs-- and with the sorry and varied state of the OpenGL drivers and video cards on Macs-- there's no wonder significant issues arise.

This is not to say e-on is not responsible for making Vue work on every Mac possible, just that for some configurations, it's a serious daunting task.

JCD, it sounds like you have a wonderfully powerful machine there. I suspect, if you decided to install BootCamp and the 64-bit version of Vue 7.4 for Windows, you would see a remarkable change in performance-- one which your highly talented skills would quickly take advantage of!

I do agree with Rutra, while e-on certainly has work to do on the Mac side of things, it may just be easier to try with a PC-- the interface is identical. And, one of the great features of Vue is you can purchase it for one platform, but use it on another at no cost. Certainly worth a try...

You get what you pay for. Vue is not an industry standard product. It is an add on tool for industry standard products. It also does not cost 3500.00. For what it does it’s not too bad. If you want stability it will vary believe me I know. Some can make it work with not much problem. Others, simply can not. E-on software management will never change. Their approach has not varied much over the years. Again you might as well get use to it. Any complaints you may have will be squashed with the many Vue’ers that have been ego inspired by e-on. Good luck with that. If at some point you want to get serious about digital art. Check out the industry standard software. Many times you can get a big discount if you attend school for these products. Just a thought. Good luck andrewe_665!

Quote - Any complaints you may have will be squashed with the many Vue’ers that have been ego inspired by e-on. Good luck with that. If at some point you want to get serious about digital art.

Ouch. I suppose somehow us 'ego inspired' Vue users are supposed to somehow magically fix bugs now? Nope, this forum isn't a bug fix forum. For that, you need to contact e-on software directly at:

support @e-onsoftware.com

Insinuating people like Rutra, JCD and myself are not 'serious about digital art' is a fairly rude thing to say. You know nothing about me, nor the work I've done for companies like Disney, the Discovery Channel, Dreamworks and others.

 Well for give me. If you look at my post it was directed to andrew_665. I'm sure you are a very important person.  Your insinuation is off the mark. 

 Oh, then my bad... I didn't know by 'serious artist' you meant your nude pinups and Britney Spears wallpaper collections.

Yeah your bad for sure. But you do make my point very clear. Thank you for that. Cheers!

Hi Chip,

You said:

"Absolutely not. Until very recently, one can program the Mac via Cocoa or Carbon. But the fact is now you pretty much need to use Cocoa (XCode) in order to access the 64-bit capabilities of some Macs. And as we all know, a 8Gig Mac running in 32-bit mode only allows access to a couple of the Gbs-- and with the sorry and varied state of the OpenGL drivers and video cards on Macs-- there's no wonder significant issues arise."

That is certainly true and Apple should have discontinued Carbon support a few years ago and force developers to use Cocoa. Like you said, until recently this was not the case. However, I just wanted to mention that Apple in fact years ago told major software companies to start porting everything over to Cocoa but some did not listen. Now, you see several big names playing catchup like Adobe that is having to re-write their entire Photoshop in Cocoa from the ground up. This is not easy, even for Adobe that has a lot of resources to throw in to it. In fact, their press announcment on CS5 said they have 7 full time programmers working on the re-write in Cocoa along with Apple support when needed. A company like e-on I don't think has near that amount of programmers to throw at it full time and so I think it may be a while for them. I know Autodesk has more resources and will get there and Modo has already said they will be working on a 4.x 64 bit Apple Cocoa version that will be free to their users. The bottom line is many were just lazy, wanted to save resources, etc. and now are being caught having to work this out so it seems like it happened all of a sudden.

Like I said, a good way to do things is the Maxon way. They had their act together and followed the tech announcement years ago from Apple and started porting it a couple of years ago until they had the current re-write in Cocoa. This was advised and something they listened to that is paying off for them in the long run. Now, they can just focus on bug fixes or new features and are good to go. A model many companies, not just e-on should have followed.

Eventually, I think you will see most all major applications in 64 bit regardless of platform or some may decide they don't have the resources and choose to drop support for more than one OS. I know what you mean about having to support products and it being labor intensive, but keep in mind this is not unique to Apple as some have written. This is true for any OS that makes revision changes, even some Windows updates that are "patches" and updates can throw a curve into the code forcing an update. It just an issue with any developer regardless of Apple, Microsoft or Linux that is a part of the process. That's why I think that you REALLY have to consider what you are getting into when deciding to support more than one OS. It will task anyone, it's just a matter of what resources you have to throw at it.

One last note, you keep saying "Boot Camp" and while you can, I found the best solution is to not use it and instead go with 2 separate dedicated hard drives, one for each OS. That way you simply hold the "opton/alt" key at bootup and select which OS you want to boot into. If anyone wants the steps feel free to PM and I can help.

Hope your projects are going well, I look forward to seeing them.

 Hi Jeff,

Yes, of course you are correct regarding the fact Apple has been telling developers for quite some time now to use Objective C. That said, most folks, like Adobe and e-on, have thousands of hours of code already optimized for cross-platform development.

Also, rather unique in 3D programming, is many companies prefer having the same exact interface on both platforms-- rather than going with Apple's HIG, they use their own. Some, IMO, are better (Modo) others may be worse (e-on?). 

For e-on and the rest to continue to compete with folks like Maxon on the Mac, they will have to provide 64-bit support. But, that will take some time. To rewrite huge chunks of code in Obj-C is a large task.

I am sure you are right regarding the Boot Camp vs multiple drives as well. I've got a very lonely Mac iBook sitting in the corner which I use to compile and test my apps on. Even then, I typically use a Remote Desktop Connection to keep from having to switch machines ;-).

Quote -  Well for give me. If you look at my post it was directed to andrew_665. I'm sure you are a very important person.  Your insinuation is off the mark. 

Well.....it would have been if you hadn't used a tarring brush over a mile wide....y'know?

Artists in general are 'ego driven'. It goes with the territory, as you as a human being are assuming that you can actually create something that is fit for any other human being to ever dare lay eyes on. I write. I create worlds. I use CG to bring to visual life what I've breathed life into on the printed page. I freely admit to having the ego structure of a minor godling; it goes with the territory, and as long as it is kept on a firm leash, it's a good thing. A powerful thing, that can give drive and focus to a process that any sane human being would run shrieking in terror from. Where it starts getting bad is when one forgets that true creativity relies on nothing but the brain in which it resides, and begins making grand sweeping opinions as if they were some kind of gospel.

Max, Maya, XSI, Lightwave, Cinema, Vue, Poser, Bryce, Photoshop, Endorphin, Arena, Combustion, etc are nothing but tools. There is no magic in any of them. Owning $8,000 worth of Maya and plugins and knowing how to use them does not make one an artist. A mechanic, maybe....which is exactly what most of the industry demands of the CG component of the process. They don't want 'artistic'; they want the bloody script and pre-production docs followed, at least on time and for cheaper than contracted. I've seen people look at Phoul's animation work and swear they knew it was Maya or Max (and Philippe would be the first to tell you he doesn't consider himself an artist or genius), and high end package renders that are so bad it makes Bryce 4 look professional by contrast.

Is any of this art? Well, the absolute last person who has a say in it is the creator. The audience decides if its art or not. Is my writing art? Hell if I know. I just know the stories are there, and want to get out. The same with the animation. The lack of professionalism that pervades the site isn't a matter of what tools are being used; it's the constant worrying about what others think of the tools one has available, and whether they add up in $$$ to some mythic standard that makes one a 'real cg artist'. It's the output, not the pipeline, and a brilliantly done Poser or Vue render usually far exceeds what a poor Max or Cinema render is. Of course those who ponied up for the big app sneers....but the true professionals rarely do that. They watch and learn, and test to see if maybe they are missing something for their toolbox. 

And the rules are changing. Vue is a 'cheap' app......yet that cheap app has been used in some very impressive big studio titles (Pirates II, Spiderwick, Indiana Jones 4, just to namedrop). As costs mount, finding cheaper alternatives is becoming more and more common....which is why Vue is still standing, and Worldbuilder died. If Poser ever managed to implement proper softbody dynamics, and the muscle deformers to go with it, even more animators would use it in what has traditionally been high end turf. It's simple economics. If you could buy 20 seats on an animation program that, while not a good rendering app, could do all you needed in animation, and collada export placed it where you wanted to render, for the price of a single seat in one of the 'big' apps (thereby giving 20 animators workspace as opposed to one), and it did the job.....what would the economic smart thing be? Not that anything of the sort seems to be in the offing.....but parking ones self on one spot and thinking it is some ultimate is a good way to get plowed under by the next up and coming 'ultimate'.

As it stands the salesman gets the last word even when all have left the room.

Please, you all lost support from e-on years ago.  You never had it.  It was an illusion all along.  Their incremental upgrading system is a scam and proves the premise.

There are a handful of people here that are well known to be fanboys of vue and have been defending it for decades.  They make money off of vue in some way and they defend vue till the end.  They never leave and always blame the user not the corporation.

It's been going on for so long that it is completely obvious who they are.

First let me say I like Vue the program. Yes it’s cheap. Yes it has bugs. But I am a realist. You get what you pay for. Corba has some very good points. And like a growing number of other users can see the truth. Mostly people like this don’t come here to shed any light on the truth because they get flamed on. However since Dale directed his post at me. I feel I should respond. And if my response helps some user see the truth then some good may come of it. If not flame away.

Yes you’re right Dale all artists have egos. In fact every human has one.

This fact can be a very valuable commodity for a company like e-on. e-on never lifts a finger against a nay sayer, they don’t have too. They just let the ego crew pound on them as it cost e-on nothing and has proven to be very effective. They don’t even have to worry about liability as these ego warriors don’t actually work for e-on. Well in fact they do, but they don’t know it. e-on will use these ego inspired customers to save money. They become beta testers, sales people, technical support helpers, graphic add producers and in Dales case philosophers. (that was a joke Dale) All for free. The ego dollar goes a long way.

What I find personally funny. Many won’t admit they have fallen into this manipulative trap. They want to flame the messenger. The truth will some times hurt. But it still remains a fact. A fact many don’t want to acknowledge for the fear they are being duped. I mean, no one willingly wants to be manipulated or used.

Honestly how long did it take for you to write that response Dale? And what really is the result? Chip? LOL.  Add up all his responses and you got a book. Hey guys, it is a free country and I really could care less about what you spend your time on. Just don’t shoot the messenger. If you want to remain a blind ego inspired worker for e-on, please be my guest. e-on has learned a long time ago the worth of feeding your egos and it pays off for them big time. (I can hear the key boards clicking away on that one lol.)

Surely many will respond with, I enjoy helping out. Or I want to give back because it feels good. Or I am just trying to help others with the program. But the bottom line is e-on has feed your ego in some way to make you feel important. Then they capitalize on that feeling. Very innocently. Think about it.

Does that make them a bad company? Does that make them bad people? Not at all. In fact it makes them pretty damn smart.

Now, if there is a way to turn e-on’s methods 360 degrees and actually get them to pay out for your efforts. Then, wa la. What works for the goose can work for the gander. Good luck with that one however, as the purse strings are held tight. And the e-on ego is far larger than any one of ours. But it is possible as I have done it.

What works best in America is if you feel a product you purchased was mis-represented or does not work the way it was advertised. You take it back. If you can not get your money back then you simply quit buying it. If enough people do that then the company either makes changes that will help keep the customers or they go out of business. This works pretty well I have noticed.

At any rate, enough time wasted on this subject. Good luck to you all.

Oh, all of 10 minutes (writer, remember?).

And frankly, I don't know which is sadder; Cobra's E-on variation of 'The Man is out to Get You' or the presumption that we are all in the midst of some Machiavellian mind game with a little bit of Faust thrown in for seasoning, with no awareness or control over our own lives. Bit overdone, that..... Diogenes you ain't dude.

 Diogenes? LOL He was Greek philosopher and founder of the Cynic school who advocated self-control and the pursuit of virtue through simple living. He is said to have once wandered through the streets of Athens with a lantern in daylight, searching for an honest man.

You are correct sir Diogenes I am not. He sounds a bit more like you. 

Sad? I can understand why you would feel that way. 

Over done? LOL my God man look at your post. LOL Dale.. you really crack me up. Thank you.

 Hold on, any comments about another person's gallery should be left out of the discussion.  RDS does not have any such items in his gallery.  Let's have a little decorum here.

Quote -  Hold on, any comments about another person's gallery should be left out of the discussion.  RDS does not have any such items in his gallery.  Let's have a little decorum here.

You don't need to look too far on his website to find the naked wallpapers and Britney Spears images which RDS creates.

Mr. RDS is holding himself up to be a 'serious artist'  and is providing advice and opinion. Just like in real life, it's always smart to check one's sources-- and I did and reported back. I've made no gallery comments other than about what type of content he creates-- though if asked, I will gladly provide a critique.

Once again Mr. Walters you prove my point.

I do not make any claims. I speak the truth.

I am not a serious artist or I would not even bother responding to your posts Chip.

I've seen you do this to others. Reading what you want into their words. Twisting them to meet your purpose.

I hold no contempt for Vue or anyone here for that matter. I do however have an opinion and a right to express it. Go ahead and give me your professional critique. As you sir are a proven digital artist with many credits to your name. I welcome your opinion of my nude wallpapers. ;~)  

Quote - There are a handful of people here that are well known to be fanboys of vue and have been defending it for decades.

Well, to tell the truth, I was one of those that didn't much care for Vue for the PDP-11.

Quote - Go ahead and give me your professional critique. As you sir are a proven digital artist with many credits to your name. I welcome your opinion of my nude wallpapers. ;~)  

RDS,

I choose not to comment on your wallpapers, but since you asked, I have looked at your Gallery here on Renderosity and you have quite a number of very nice images. Your sense of design, color, space, figure/ground relationship and especially composition is most apparent. Many of your renders are very nice, some spectacular-- Port, Fresh water fishing, X2 are my favorites.

Well thank you sir, I appreciate your comment. Have a great day

Thanks RDS, I did enjoy using VUE at time ot had provided some good results, which I could upgrade because I like what I see, but the cash is limiited. One thing I do love is the interface it is laid out like a tecnical drawing thingy which I did for many years when I was young. Unlike the poser interface which is so nasty. Any how been out to the coast working on photography. And thanks all for the coments here some of you are obviously have some VUE affiliations are probe to promote them, yes you have shown objectiveness but don't see or experience some of our whinny bitches. VUE as customer support has no idea how the US works.

 I agree the interface is great to work with. Vue is a great tool to have in the tool box.

Your final comment is the truth. But that being said don't expect it to change. But it can be dealt with.

Fortunately for e-on the software for the most part is a great tool. 

*VUE as customer support has no idea how the US works

now that's an odd one! :)
scratches head in puzzlement
IIRC doesn't E-On have a very European mix? And like, most of the entire world is not America, you know :p

I like how modo is packed with new features with each release.  Vue seems to have very few features added with each release.  Both have upgrade prices about the same though.  Did Vue 8 get a shadow catcher feature yet?  modo 401 did. 

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1929973 my latest work with a camera straight of my D80 it never lies or crashes only cropped in PS

oh I have never had to question Adobe or Niikon, Poser who would bother, it's shite VUE when they are not congrattulating themselves so much they might listen,

So now your saying that you dont complain about poser becuase its terrible?

Photoshop is an entirely different program to vue, I doubt its as complex in many ways, this is like saying gta IV doesnt crash but vue does.

A camera and a 3d cgi program are too different to compare, thats like saying well my shoes never crash but VUE DOES!

Wasnt the point of this thread that you were saying that vendors were making products in the latest version of vue which were not supported in 6?  not x crashes less than vue therefore it is terrible?

Quote - Photoshop is an entirely different program to vue, I doubt its as complex in many ways, this is like saying gta IV doesnt crash but vue does.

Rich,

This is NOT a response to any discussion between you and another user, I just wanted to address the one statement you made above.

I think it is important to provide accurate information and the above statement is certainly not true. Yes, they are different, but Photoshop is hardly a simple program. In fact, you should read the specs on it and also the "Extended" version. That version has 3D capabilities for some REAL nice work. I use it along with my other 3D software a LOT.

Also, I am sure you already know that Adobe is one of the oldest companies around and their program now is VERY advanced and not just a mere photo tool. It costs about the same as Vue Infinite as well at about $1,000 for the full version. Also, Photoshop is undergoing a full re-write at this time for the Mac 64 bit future CS5 and the amount of code is massive and complex. In their official press announcement, it is taking a full team of 7 programmers plus help from Apple when needed to port all the code over to Cocoa. Their company is one of the largest around and they have earned a great name over many years.

Best wishes in your renders,

This is true Jeff and I am aware of photoshops 3d capabilities (Lightwave models can be imported - its very fancy).  There is no doubt that it is a very complex piece of software, I wouldnt have thought as complex as CGI software but if you say it is then ill have to take your word for it. 
In this case though and I quote "my latest work with a camera straight of my D80 it never lies or crashes only cropped in PS" cropping a very nice photo in photoshop cant really be compared to creating a 3d landscape. (i'm aware you said that it wasnt a response but you have taken my words out of context)

 A team of 7 programmers? And I bet they are all top notch. Adobe knows how to write software. They have been the industry standard software for years. In the spirit of solid stable program writing. e-on should be taking notes. 

My guess is the Adobe re-write will take a lot of time. Because they want it to be stable and solid. I doubt very much you will see frequent bug occurrences if any. Because these guys know how to write good software from the start. And for give me Rich, but writing software is writing software. Sure cropping a photo is nothing like building a 3D landscape. But writing the code is not making the picture. It's building the tool to make the picture. Maybe you can see the difference? E-on does not have 7 programmers and the ones they have? Well we sure see a lot of bugs don’t we. If you do it right the first time you don’t have the problems that e-on ends up with on every single build.

 Personally I will be very interested in the new improved Photo Shop. I know I will get what was advertised and what I paid for. And isn’t that what everyone wants?

Quote -  

 A team of 7 programmers? And I bet they are all top notch. Adobe knows how to write software. They have been the industry standard software for years. In the spirit of solid stable program writing. e-on should be taking notes. 

My guess is the Adobe re-write will take a lot of time. Because they want it to be stable and solid. I doubt very much you will see frequent bug occurrences if any. Because these guys know how to write good software from the start. And for give me Rich, but writing software is writing software. Sure cropping a photo is nothing like building a 3D landscape. But writing the code is not making the picture. It's building the tool to make the picture. Maybe you can see the difference? E-on does not have 7 programmers and the ones they have? Well we sure see a lot of bugs don’t we. If you do it right the first time you don’t have the problems that e-on ends up with on every single build.

 Personally I will be very interested in the new improved Photo Shop. I know I will get what was advertised and what I paid for. And isn’t that what everyone wants?

Yes, Adobe is a well established company. Anyone would be foolish to say they aren't one of the top and most respected software companies in existence today. All one has to do is look at their WIKI for some brief details.

• In business since 1982
• A public NASDAQ (ADBE) stock that is worth more per share (as of 8-11-09) than Microsoft, Intel, Electronic Arts and DirecTV to name a few.
• They have over 7,173 employees on a VERY large campus.
• Revenue 3.58 BILLION (2008)
• etc.

When they announced CS5 for the Mac will be 64 bit and FULLY re-written in Cocoa, it was nothing to read that 7 full time programmers are working on it. They have HUGE support and can put together a team that is second to none to get any job done they want.

Now, one can not expect a VERY small company like e-on to compete, but what they can do is write better code and give better support. If a company like Maxon that is small compared to a company like Adobe can do it right and re-write in Cocoa 64 bit then others should be able to with the right ownership and focus.

I am NOT down on e-on but rather hoping they will focus more their efforts and get better talent behind them. Either that or get bought out by a company such as Autodesk since they don't have a program like that in their current software suite. While Autodesk is not Adobe, they certainly have a lot more to throw at a program than e-on.

That said, I know e-on is not the only one like this as others such as Pixologic (ZBrush) have had their share of issues to that have been well documented on their own forum, at other sites and even in 3D World Magazine. They are FINALLY showing some signs of life recently after getting a bad reputation in the press, especially for their Mac support. There are some that LOVE ZBrush and are holding out hope like myself with e-on they do turn it around which they may.

Happy rendering,

 I couldn't agree with you more Jeff. Well said.