what is MDP F-202?
Love esther

A pic of the F202 is here:
http://www.evilinnocence.com/f202-dollie-crossdresser-license.html

I think A3 Realistic morph is quite attractive

I feel the problem with toons is that they tend to be too individual so far... as a commercial artist I used Shazam a lot... it was a bauble head V2 and I could make a wide rage of "unique" characters including males with it. I also used PropagetScale versions of Posette and Dork but in commercial work I could never use a distinctive character type figure such as The GIRL or Kit or any of those.

H.E.R. was adaptable enough with good morph sets but the issue with Toons is most definitely for me about being able to morph it well from its distinctive default character. AikoToon is real nice but the texture issue is miserable.... I would use the hell out of that figure if it had V3 head mapping. I love Bong and Bonga for being open ended stylisticly but having fingers but no toes is a huge hang up for me... Bong with real feet would be wonderful.

One other issue with toon also... many of the toons are childlike. For both personal and professional work for me it is a neccessity that the figure be unequivocally mature such as The Girl.

yeah I hear you on AikoToon's textures... I got the UTC and her plugin, but I couldn't get it to run on my computer...

Getting someone to remap the head is a realistic goal surely...

Quote - > Quote - What does the community have against toon characters?

I think toons are less popular than realistic figures because they're not perceived as very sexy usually.
.

Dunno... Hackworthless used to make some hella cool Manga over at R'otica back in the day, and he certainly wasn't alone.

I'm guessing that it's pretty niche, though.

(uh-oh... rant mode...)

IMHO, I'm thinking that the reason 'toon characters (of any stripe) are rarely supported for long boils down to the fact that most of the stock renderers are geared towards the realisticHDRIraytracedimagebasedlightedOAMG-it's-so-damned-real-my-eyes-are-BLEEDING! type of renders. DAZ|Studio's "Cartoon" mode still bites under most light conditions (I know, my fault for not doing anything about it either, but it's been four frickin' years now!). Light kits that work well for 'toons are far and few between.

A decent Cel Shader? Pffft! As if... you'd better pay up for 3DSMax/Maya/LW if you want that kind of love. Either case, it takes a shedload more work to do 'toon renders on Firefly or 3Delight than, well, the "real" stuff (such as it is).

(...please let me be wrong about that, please let me be wrong about that...)

Anyrate, there's also the fact that 'toons aren't quite as, err, flexible. Pretty much all variations of (ferinstance) Neftoon or Alexis (how's that for old?) look almost exactly alike. Even with the newer stuff, like say Kururu or Deco/Maybe, there's only so much stretching you can do off the default archetype before things go awry with the joints, morphs, et al.

I mean, c'mon... compare the amount of flex and stretch you get from V4 or Apollo Maximus, versus a one-off with a pretty much pre-determined shape.

Anyrate, I'm gonna shut up before I really dig a hole...

If the Poser 4 had just had the JPs tweeked like the injection by Yamoto, the edges smoothed as by Stahlratte, the resolution spiked a little like by Traveler and joint-fix JCM added... there was even a JCM set that did bicept and quad contraction etc. The figures were easy to scale, easy to morph and easy to distribute... the topology was good. The figures weren't flawed... they just needed polishing. I have seen amazing portrait work done with Posette. Object smoothing took care of the resolution issues... pitklad dealt with the eye surfaces, lacrimals and teeth Hellborn created female genitals. David did the remaping.  The figures could have been developed into powerhouse if the community hadn't jumped on the DAZ bandwagon. The community was at a crossroads when Vicky came out... if they had gone with Traveler's version of Eve instead this would in many ways be a more vital and creative community but I guess their would have been a lot less money flying around.

I always say the more the merrier....humans, toons, realistic, monsters, aliens, etc. 
It would be nice if the Poser program natively converted clothing from any figure to another.  That would be awesome and I am not holding my breath.  :)

--Rebekah--

wait, isnt' Wardrobe Wizard packaged with Poser 8?  i could have sworn that's what people were saying.

Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures.  V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects.  Posette - forget it.  Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4.  Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure. 

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

Quote - Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures.  V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects.  Posette - forget it.  Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4.  Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure. 

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

Avoid forearm side-to-side. Shins also. Ouch.

Quote - > Quote - Skipped through a lot of the thread but David, I have to take issue with you regarding the bending capabilities of older figures.  V1/2 ain't so good compared to V3 and V4 - and V3 is pretty awful in some respects.  Posette - forget it.  Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Sure, all figures have some good posing ability but not many so far approach the standard of V4.  Even though I dislike the default shape and the mapping, it ain't a bad figure. 

And yes, I do know how to pose a figure correctly. :)

Avoid forearm side-to-side. Shins also. Ouch.

Indeed. And twisty fingers, and side to side finger bends other than at the palm joint.  And while we're at it, rotating wrists.  Which of course, they don't.  In the same way that ankles don't. :)

Yes, WW is packaged with Poser 8, BUT the way that it works isn't universal for all figures. PhilC has to make files to add to WW for each figure that is going to get support and  a lot of those you are going to have to pay extra for.  Money well spent if you can convert clothing to and from several figures if you ask me.  Point being, not all figures get the benefits of WW in Poser 8.

We put our Project Human figures out there for people to use, learn with or simply play with and we have made some support packages for them, but that wasn't thier point or purpose.  Our Uni-Dwarf is getting a lot more support from us clothing wise.  But to be honest, Les really just likes making figures...making clothing is another art altogether is seems sometimes.   We've tried to make support our figures and easy as possible with making the CR2 files distributable, the morphs, the textures can be altered and distributed, etc...just about everything but the actual obj file and people seem confused. I will get emails asking if they can make a pose pack for one of our figures or a texture...it is just bizzare. Who scared people into thinking that supporting a product was a complicated process ?  We try to encourage people as much as possible to try to learn new things and to share them or sell them or whatever, but it should be fun for them.  I digress, we know that the Poser default figures and the DAZ figures are always going to sell more than ours....but there are just some things that we want to do that are easier to do with our own figures than someone elses.  Don't think that all original figure creators are making human figures with mad dreams of conquering the Poserverse.    As far as toon figures, yes they are very stylized by the nature of what they are....some sell well, some don't.  It is hit or miss, but that isn't going to stop us from making what we enjoy creating. 

--Rebekah--

Quote - Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Someone did fix that, once. 

-A

Quote - > Quote - Stephanie 1 bends like glass.

Someone did fix that, once. 

-A

That they did.  Steph Max, IIRC.  Very nice figure.

Sam, what is sooooooo bad about Posette's bending, that you'd prefer a Ponderous Behemoth as a cure?
dph

 Yamaotos JP for Posette were good... add a few JCM joint fixes and the only trouble is some sculpting.

David, we went through this before, over a year ago.  You posted some pics of Posette bending as example of how good the model is.  Sad to say, her ass gets kinda splintery, for one thing.  Not a bad model for what it is, but very limited. 

Anyhow, "ponderous behemoth"?  All the DAZ figures run fine on my ageing machines.  TBH, I tend to render in sections anyhow, so I have the luxury of using as many hi poly figures as I please.

 Damn, I wonder what machine you have! I overspent on a new machine and can't run a fully clothed V4 with hair in a scene!! Can't even think of running Miki 1020 with clothes.

Hey,
any mesh is just another hook to hang the texture on.

All the rest can be fixed.
Be it high, or low, or medium polycount,
Be it new or old figure. They all have their "misfortunes".
But, there is money in it.

But the usability of Posette and Dork still has to be beaten.
And it will not be done by poly count. Object smoothing solved the poly hype.
But by improved rigging, and by a good texture.

But and it has been said, there is no money in it. Sellers want to sell.
Every improvement is a change, not every change is an improvement.
It can be better in one way, but problems in others.

I still say; any poly has to do something special in the 3D environment.
Every poly, has to "DO" something usefull in the topology. If not? Delete it. It is pollution.

But, for bending purposes, "strech" area's need an denser population then "compress" area's.

Want very, read, very, "read extreme" high poly count?
A good bump and displacement map takes care of this.
Anyone ever calculated how many artificial poly's one can have? ? ? 
Every pixel in displacement becomes a poly.
But , there is no money in it.

If  done right, you could displace any figure, into any other figure.
As you can clothify almost any figure into another one. But that is another story.
As you can morph any figure into any other one.
But and it has been said, there is no money in it. Sellers want to sell.

 I''d rather do it in the map, then in the "hook".

A good texture sells a figure, nothing else.
 

Quote -  Damn, I wonder what machine you have! I overspent on a new machine and can't run a fully clothed V4 with hair in a scene!! Can't even think of running Miki 1020 with clothes.

Back when it was made, it was a pretty hot machine.  It's a fairly simple 1GB rig with a kick ass graphics card, no sound card, a fast Athlon and 2 250 GB drives for storage and a 40 GB boot disk.

I switch off absolutely every process that isn't necessary; no themes, screensavers and so forth.  Defrag my drives regularly and absolutely never, ever connect that one to the internet.

I have a similar box for 2D stuff and Cubase but with a 80 GB SCSI for a boot disk and a pretty good soundcard.

I'm using a Celeron based POS to get online at the moment.

 Yeah... I think it is the video card that really makes the difference with Poser. Does Poser use the video card for the final render as well as the preview?

Quote - David, we went through this before, over a year ago.  You posted some pics of Posette bending as example of how good the model is.  Sad to say, her ass gets kinda splintery, for one thing.  Not a bad model for what it is, but very limited. 

Anyhow, "ponderous behemoth"?  All the DAZ figures run fine on my ageing machines.  TBH, I tend to render in sections anyhow, so I have the luxury of using as many hi poly figures as I please.

Sorry Sam, but I think that you need glasses, (and/or I need a NEW pair)!  I've yet to find ONE splinter on Posette's ass! (and yes I've looked. pervert that I am!)

If you were to ever remap any of these figures, You'd realize jsut what I mean by 'Ponderous Behemoth'.  The LOD figures of the Free DS are quite reasonable as per poly-count (almost the same as Posette), but the Base figures are obviously a case of someone loading these figures into 3ds Max, and then adding the Turbo-Smooth modifier.
dph

Quote -  Yeah... I think it is the video card that really makes the difference with Poser. Does Poser use the video card for the final render as well as the preview?

Nope, doesn't use it at all for rendering.  The trick is to split the scene into smaller chunks for rendering, then comp them all back together in Photoshop.  I've been doing it for years.

@ David - I really wish I could find the old thread I was talking about.  You posted some pics of Posette and, to be really honest, they looked bad.

Nowadays, if I use the older figures it's as scene fillers.

Well, to be fair, her rear does look a little funny... I'm just sayin'....lol.

It's a joint setup thing.

Laurie

Posette rules.
OK, she needs mophs, but all the figures do !

I think he refers to the "knick" between the buttocks and the thights.

But ALL figures need morphs in that area when bending like this.

Anyone may show me a pic of any "default figure"  in the left pose.

Posette and Judy, in that order. Morphed of course :-)

yep laurieA
it is a rigging thing overthere, and on the knees.
But the mesh is OK.

Hey, REAL people kink in their hip thigh joint like that too!!  Maybe not to the same extent, but they DO kink there.  As for the rest, with V3 textures, she looks damn scrumptious!!
dph

Now that's what I remember...

Weird creases and even breakage. Trav's Eve was a step up and when I do use Posette, it's usually Eve. Never did like the body shape, but that's a subjective thing ;o).

Laurie

Yeah... the hip is a bit funny. It is that "bikini" style hip grouping... V4 suffers from it too. I think Antonia uses the old P2 "bike pants" hip group which avoids "splintering" in the groin with deep bends.

Posette is not perfect off the rack. Like I said, it needs JP work some of which was distributed free and some kept secrete unfortunately, needed some basic resculpting like Stahratte did on the face... but the robust foundation was a very morphable and scaleable figure. Try Pitklad's NEA and you will see just how flexible the figure is...

Think of how crappy V3 or even V4 looked before people got to work on them. Search the RMP from back to front for V4 characters and see how bad the first character sets were. The difference though is that aftermarket development of Posette was mainly non-profit and certainly so as far as DAZ was concerned but the figure was damn easy to work with and the work was easy to distribute.

Really, think of how many of the most used V4 products are essentially after-market fixes!

This focus on complexity in figures leads to less productivity in my case... I got many more renders that said more with P4 while now I spend hours tweeking complicated expensive content and lights getting far less interesting work. Poser 4 had a distinct look that could have evolved into an aesthetic but instead Poser is chasing after the look of high-end CGI which is very amusing and challenging I agree but ultimately leads to less "art" getting made in my individual case.

Quote - I confess to be absolutly "anti-Posette" .Unrealistic bodyshape  and ugly by default but that is morphable but joints especially the hip/thigh Joints are useless.I guess this is meant with "some kinda splintry" :

Timberwolf, you nailed it.  

Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too!  Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that!  When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether! 
Here PosetteV3wg, which incorporates Pitklad's NEAena's Cr2 with its JP corrections, BTW manages to achieve the same pose without all that crap!
Hip:             Bend -30.000
Abdomen:  Bend +60.000
Chest:         Bend +60.000
Neck:          Bend +10.000
Head:         Bend +20.000

The rule that I try to follow here is the 1:2 rule.  For every one part of hip bend/twist/side-to-side, I use 2 parts abdomen and chest.  For every one part of neck bend/twist/sid-to-side I use 2 parts head.
dph

Quote:  *Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too!  Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that!  When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether!     * half way true.For sitting in a 90 deg angle you won't need to be that flexible.It is not contortionists only.Make a poll how many people are able to sit back against a wall streight down to theire lower spine and legs flat on the floor -having 90 deg. between thighs and torso.I guess you will get a 50-50 result.------Back to Posette : The thing is , there is the same ugly mesh-distortion when bendig thighs in case of a kick-pose .This is a problem - of course a Poser-problem in general, but a posette problem especially. Eve has been a major step ahead here , but to me it simply doesn't make sense to spend time on reshaping and remaping eve ,when I can get an far advanced Miki2 instead.

Quote - Quote:  *Well I dare say that if you were to bend a real human female at the hips, ike you bend poor old Posette, you'd be seeing splinters on her too!  Real people, except for contortionists traind from birth don't bend like that!  When a person bends forwards, he bends at the hip, abdomen, chest, neck, & head altogether!     * half way true.For sitting in a 90 deg angle you won't need to be that flexible.It is not contortionists only.Make a poll how many people are able to sit back against a wall streight down to theire lower spine and legs flat on the floor -having 90 deg. between thighs and torso.I guess you will get a 50-50 result.------Back to Posette : The thing is , there is the same ugly mesh-distortion when bendig thighs in case of a kick-pose .This is a problem - of course a Poser-problem in general, but a posette problem especially. Eve has been a major step ahead here , but to me it simply doesn't make sense to spend time on reshaping and remaping eve ,when I can get an far advanced Miki2 instead.

Yes, but by and large, the lighter the mesh, the easier to pose!  I've also remapped Miki 2, but trying to pose her is at times like dragging a large boulder through a lake filled with jello!
dph

As for a kick, remember that a kick is not just the leg, but also the hip too.  Bend the hip +-30.000 in the direction of the kick, and then the leg +-60.000.  Then straighten the back by bending the abdomen and chest in the opposite direction.
dph