Are there any plans in the works to add/improve these type of features in poser?  Things like handling ngons (something many other apps can do, but poser has problems with), smoothing groups, sub-d, very high poly count objects, etc. 

IMO, you're overall better off without ngons anyway. There are those who seem to have no problem with using them and even those who argue that they're just fine, but I'd  have to disagree. For one thing they don't deform well and for another you always end up with poles that can mess pretty badly with sub-d and definitely with sculpting. In other apps that is.

Of course if your model is planned out with the idea of ngons in mind you can get away with it, but they still don't deform well. Fine for static objects though. But I still think everyone should use quads and use tris only when it's absolutely necessary and never use ngons. ;-)

The only good thing about tris is that they can't ever become non-planar. Except in the case of a degenerate triangle, but that's just an error. Quads can and do become non-planar easily, but ngons can quickly become a total non-planar nightmare.

Plus any 3D/Poser noob buying something made with ngons would likely have all kinds of problems the moment he tried to morph it and run off in a fit of hysteria demanding his money back and threatening to kill people. Could get ugly real quickly if they allowed ngons. ;-)

I would doubt that they have any immediate plans to improve Poser's handling of huge poly counts, but in its defense, it performs alot better than alot of the big boys, at least when manipulating objects. Rendering is a different story altogether though and Poser struggles and chokes where other apps don't even blink.

Yes, true.. with ngons not deforming well and better to plan for quads/tris only.  However, for those wanting to import already created models in from other apps, this would be helpful. 

Smoothing groups are a royal PITA in Poser though.  Having to bevel edges or detach polys or increase poly count in certain areas..well you already know.  Figuring out a sub-d that works would be fantastic.

Rendering of large poly count objects in poser IS the problem.

Anyway, there are work-arounds for most of these issues but I do hope SM or whoever gets around to this, as things like this will improve poser's functionality.

Quote - Anyway, there are work-arounds for most of these issues but I do hope SM or whoever gets around to this, as things like this will improve poser's functionality.

I do agree...

Nevertheless, I've been hoping for years for dozens of simple things that Larry Weinberg could probably code during half of a lunch break before his fries even got cold...

Good luck. ;-)

Regarding high polygon models. Poser, in my opinion, has a very good "smooth at render time" algorithm. Try rendering Posette in Poser 4 then again in Poser 8 and you'll see the difference. The idea being that you do not need very high polygon models in Poser. If you need intricate surface detail then look to apply those with textures, bump and displacement maps.

More recently I've been using ZBrush which does indeed handle very large polygon models. What I've been doing is to import my "regular" Poser model into ZBrush, subdivide to get approx one million polys then work on that to get the surface detail. Wrinkles in cloth, veins in flesh etc. I then export out the alpha map and apply that as a displacement map to my original model.

Poser handles n-gons pretty well but NOT if they have concave edges. Something like a hexagonal pipe end works fine , a U shaped beam does not. Sonce Poser smooths fairly nicely it would be a matter of de3fining what smooths and what doesnt, which is already fairly well known. 

splitting all vertices in uvmapper is rarely the best solution if you have access to a modeller. 

I have been convinced that displacment maps are the way to go , and I use lightwave which quickly goes into a million polygons if you arent careful. Its really easy to get carried away with making smooth flowing curves but they eat resources.

Can someone explain this?

(click thumb for larger image)

Modeled in Modo, quickie rendered in Poser Pro 2010...

The image on the left is how it appears in the preview in Poser. The middle image is wireframe. It's all quads, no tris, no ngons.

The right is how it renders with Poser's default smoothing of 80. It does this at 90, 89.99, 1, 45.... I wasn't about to try all the number combinations between 0 and 360. ;-)

The only way it looks normal in a render is to turn off smoothing for it. That doesn't happen in Softimage or Modo... just Poser and its... shall we say... unique ways... ;-)

Anyone, any ideas why this happens?

If the option to simply turn smoothing off for that object is not acceptable to you then you'll need to add more edge loops along the length of the tube.

More edge loops, is that it?

Those edges are just long quads. I think there were 48 sides to the cylinder I used. They're straight all the way up to the first bend.

I'm honetsly not seeing why I should have to do that in an object like this though. Clearly Poser is doing something wrong.

At any rate it was just part of an object I made for a somewhat distant thing, so leaving smoothing off is fine, but still, I'd love to know why Poser does this.

I could see if it it made it "mushy" or soft around where it joins the base, that would make sense, but to render it so distorted as it does just shows there is something really unusual about how Poser deals with objects as opposed to other render engines.

I've found that every 3D application that I have ever used has its own particular ways. ZBrush inverts the UV map. Is that "wrong" or just what ZBrush does? Who's to say. Me? I just invert my map and move on. Poser does not like long thin polygons so I suggest that you do not use them or go with the option to just turn off smoothing for the object.

Yes, it is wrong what ZBrush does. Very wrong. Silly even. I'd really love to know the reasoning behind that one. ;-)

"Hey, what if we made it so all image maps were inverted by default, wouldn't that be great?"

"Ummm.. wouldn't that be kinda silly and maybe even a tad stupid?"

"Yes, exactly!"

"Now THAT'S what I call thinking outside of the box! See if you can come up with a sillier way to import objects now that you're on a roll!"

"Already on it chief..."

Well then okay, point taken, and you're right. I've been using Poser for a long time and have never come across this before though, then again I can't remember ever making long polys like that before either.

Quote - Hmmm...

Can someone explain this?

(click thumb for larger image)

Modeled in Modo, quickie rendered in Poser Pro 2010...

The image on the left is how it appears in the preview in Poser. The middle image is wireframe. It's all quads, no tris, no ngons.

The right is how it renders with Poser's default smoothing of 80. It does this at 90, 89.99, 1, 45.... I wasn't about to try all the number combinations between 0 and 360. ;-)

The only way it looks normal in a render is to turn off smoothing for it. That doesn't happen in Softimage or Modo... just Poser and its... shall we say... unique ways... ;-)

Anyone, any ideas why this happens?

Are the vertices of the pipe end welded to the base? I'd say detach those vertices and try those as two separate objects instead if they are. I believe the 'twisting' is occuring from the base if they are welded together.

Although edge loops to keep the 'frame' intact with smoothing on is of course a good idea. Poser likes to balloon/break edge lengths where there are none intersecting those long lengths with smoothing on.

Quote - Are the vertices of the pipe end welded to the base? I'd say detach those vertices and try those as two separate objects instead if they are. I believe the 'twisting' is occuring from the base if they are welded together.

Although edge loops to keep the 'frame' intact with smoothing on is of course a good idea. Poser likes to balloon/break edge lengths where there are none intersecting those long lengths with smoothing on.

Yeah, they were welded. I haven't worried about adding new edge loops or anything though and I doubt I will. As I wrote above this was just a part of a simple and distant thing, and without smoothing on it looks fine.

But I'll definitely think about that for future objects I make for Poser. This was just an unusual thing I put together quickly - unusual in that I wouldn't normally have long polygons like that, but it made sense at the time considering the shape of the thing.

I still say though that there's something wrong with Poser's smoothing. Modo and Softimage don't do that to that object and I doubt that 3ds max, Lightwave or Maya would either. They'll make it look a little "mushy" around the base until a good smoothing angle is reached, but nothing like that wild distortion in the images.

But Poser isn't wrong of course, just different. ;-)

Quote - > Quote - Are the vertices of the pipe end welded to the base? I'd say detach those vertices and try those as two separate objects instead if they are. I believe the 'twisting' is occuring from the base if they are welded together.

Although edge loops to keep the 'frame' intact with smoothing on is of course a good idea. Poser likes to balloon/break edge lengths where there are none intersecting those long lengths with smoothing on.

 

Yeah, they were welded. I haven't worried about adding new edge loops or anything though and I doubt I will. As I wrote above this was just a part of a simple and distant thing, and without smoothing on it looks fine.

But I'll definitely think about that for future objects I make for Poser. This was just an unusual thing I put together quickly - unusual in that I wouldn't normally have long polygons like that, but it made sense at the time considering the shape of the thing.

I still say though that there's something wrong with Poser's smoothing. Modo and Softimage don't do that to that object and I doubt that 3ds max, Lightwave or Maya would either. They'll make it look a little "mushy" around the base until a good smoothing angle is reached, but nothing like that wild distortion in the images.

But Poser isn't wrong of course, just different. ;-)

Ya know I haven't been able to duplicate that problem making nearly the same thing. It has something to do with the vertices where the pipe meets the base.

Did you make the pipe separate from the floor base and then weld it? I can tell you that perhaps if you detach and mirror the pipe (or rotate the base) in the other direction and then weld it to the base that probably won't happen when you leave smooth on. I use to have a problem with exporting mirrored objects into Poser. I believe essentially what's happening is Poser is twisting that thing around in it's attempt to smooth it and it's based on the alignment of the vertices. I'm not even sure that adding an edge loop would correct (realigning the vertices) that for smoothing. That's my guess.

Since the twisting is occuring closest at the bottom from the base of the pipe.

Ya know I haven't been able to duplicate that problem making nearly the same thing. It has something to do with the vertices where the pipe meets the base.

Did you make the pipe separate from the floor base and then weld it? I can tell you that perhaps if you detach and mirror the pipe (or rotate the base) in the other direction and then weld it to the base that probably won't happen when you leave smooth on. I use to have a problem with exporting mirrored objects into Poser. I believe essentially what's happening is Poser is twisting that thing around in it's attempt to smooth it and it's based on the alignment of the vertices. I'm not even sure that adding an edge loop would correct (realigning the vertices) that for smoothing. That's my guess.

Since the twisting is occuring closest at the bottom from the base of the pipe.

No, that started off as a plain, flat round cylinder primitive with no height - one round 48 point polygon that I beveled all the way up through all the shapes, past the 90 degree bend, and over. So it was always just one object, never separated, never welded. I deleted that massive ngon at the end too, so that's not the problem.

This was then mirrored too by the way. And yes, I made sure the mirrored points were welded. The image shows only half of it. (It's part of a railing structure). I'll check it out later and see if I can do anything to it to make it work better with smoothing.

Quote -

Ya know I haven't been able to duplicate that problem making nearly the same thing. It has something to do with the vertices where the pipe meets the base.

Did you make the pipe separate from the floor base and then weld it? I can tell you that perhaps if you detach and mirror the pipe (or rotate the base) in the other direction and then weld it to the base that probably won't happen when you leave smooth on. I use to have a problem with exporting mirrored objects into Poser. I believe essentially what's happening is Poser is twisting that thing around in it's attempt to smooth it and it's based on the alignment of the vertices. I'm not even sure that adding an edge loop would correct (realigning the vertices) that for smoothing. That's my guess.

Since the twisting is occuring closest at the bottom from the base of the pipe.

No, that started off as a plain, flat round cylinder primitive with no height - one round 48 point polygon that I beveled all the way up through all the shapes, past the 90 degree bend, and over. So it was always just one object, never separated, never welded. I deleted that massive ngon at the end too, so that's not the problem.

This was then mirrored too by the way. And yes, I made sure the mirrored points were welded. The image shows only half of it. (It's part of a railing structure). I'll check it out later and see if I can do anything to it to make it work better with smoothing.

An interesting thing to note though. I made what you made in a similar fashion except I started with a flat 4x4 plain. Scaled in the 4 corners, chamfered and opened the center vertex. Then added some edges from the scaled in corners to the center opening. Then built it up from there including the pipe. Then I added a turbosmooth (setting of 2) modifier to the whole thing. Poser rendered that fairly quickly. Another way I did it was starting with a 48 sided cylinder and then making the pipe from a spline with 48 sides converting that to a polygon. Then welded the pipe to the base cylinder.  Took Poser a hell of a lot longer to render that for some reason and I had no intersecting edges in the long open lengths of the pipe with both smooth on and off. Still rendered REALLY slowly. And I didn't get any twisting at render time. I even then added one edge loop. Still slow rendering. Although now that I think about it I didn't turn off smooth in the Render settings. Smooth is in 2 places, the object properties AND the Render settings.

By the way I'm using Max. Poser liked my turbosmoothed mesh more than the 48 sided mesh. The turbosmoothed mesh has slightly less than 48 sides and a higher polygon count. Rendered rather quickly.

Poser is weird man. Definitely. It's a love/hate relationship.

I too have the problem described by Schecterman. Any object with long, narrow polys, such as a pipe, are ballooned or distorted in render once they become welded to other objects. The same pipe is fine before becoming part of a larger prop. Changing he crease angle does nothing, no matter the setting. Only solution is to turn off smoothing for that prop.

I have even see this happen with items that are not long and narrow, but simply have no poly subdivisions. Such as a box with only 1 poly per side. When merged into another prop, the box balloons in render.

As long as Poser has this flaw, I think it should have a function within the Group Editor to subdivide polys.