:glare: stupid double posts.

Quote - They've actually always allowed non-exclusivity, it's just WAY less of a hassle to have your item be exclusive.  I believe you get a better cut and more customer service, but I don't remember.  I can't remember off-hand who else had sold items there on a non-exclusive basis, but it's been done before.

Ah. Well, if there was someone, I don't remember who...lol. Of course, that means nothing :P. I don't remember a lot of things...hehe.

Laurie

Was that only for yesterday because today I see nothing about a link to poser stuff?

Now this is interesting.

I see they're finally splitting off the Poser stuff and putting it into their own department. Not a bad idea.

Hehe...love ur avatar Jen, but now ur makin me hungry...lol.

cough Yes..Daz site. It is still on the front page ;).

Laurie

LOL

Oh okay. I am not set up to go directly to the front page. When I log into Daz I bypass the front page and go directly to the 3D content page. Since I don't see the front page that much it explains why I missed it.

As far as DAZ goes, I go there (and here) every single day, and I still see tons of stuff for Poser, and there are even a few characters that work on V4 and Genesis... therefore making it work in both DAZ and Poser.

I am a obsessive Poser user, I have DAZ but never even touched it til about 4 months ago, then I started going through the tutorial closet trying to learn DAZ (not because of Genesis, but because when I eventually open up my own store I want my stuff to work in both Poser and DAZ). I finally learned how to do pretty good renders, not as good as Poser yet, I still need more practice, took me a year to learn Poser so should be a while before I completely learn DAZ... the point is I'm gonna have an open mind, although I think I'm good with staying with V4/M4, they look rather good in DAZ and Poser and that's what all my content is for. :)

P.S: I'm aware this is off topic a bit, but I thought I'd get your opinion on my most recent DAZ render, I want to see what you guys think :) [It's V4 with a custom head morph, and my skin I made...]

Thanks Kevin!

Agreed Pengy, I actually like the idea of having one or the other filtered out.

Awwww Jen, no fighting??? :P

Quote - Awwww Jen, no fighting??? :P

If the fight is over who's gonna bring me brownies, I'm down with that.  Otherwise, nope :P

If it were bunnies vs. brownies, that would be harder.  In this case, brownies totally win :P  (Sorry, Laurie!)

Pardon the very very old crappy render....Harder? Yes! Proably for 48 or 49 percent of the population! But if that 48 or 49 percent all voted for the bunnies, and can guarantee you the other 51-52 percent would all vote for brownies....I doubt it. Bunnies would win by a cute little tail! :) :thumbupboth:

Quote - If it were bunnies vs. brownies, that would be harder.  In this case, brownies totally win :P  (Sorry, Laurie!)

:lol:

Gary, now if you posed her holding a brownie, we'd be in deep sh*t :D

Quote - *Breaks out the cat pics....

That is an awesome pic :lol: :lol:

... and this is why i don't se the forums very much.....

I have D/S but I Use Poser most all the time..EXCEPT ..when I want to compose a cartoon character. D/S does very good cartoon renders and I have yet to find an EASY way to render cartoons in Poser. I do book cover and story illustrations and I have been buying stuff from Daz since 2003 and I still do. I buy stuff from RMP and RDNA and CP all the time. I see no change with Daz really other than it is making new products that are not compatible with Poser "yet". They still have a ton of stuff that can be used in Poser! I love all the 3D store sites and just wish I had more $$ :)

Cheers!

Support for Poser has gone down considerably on the DAZ site. There are more and more products which are not tested with Poser at all - even when they come with MAT poses for Poser. Bump, display and specular map settings are left at default and come out way too strong - almost as if an automatic conversion is taking place. Light and camera settings which are present in the DS version are often not present for Poser.

Whenever there is a fight between a man and a woman?

The woman leaves the battleground with the house, the car and the kids.
;-)

Quote - Support for Poser has gone down considerably on the DAZ site. There are more and more products which are not tested with Poser at all - even when they come with MAT poses for Poser. Bump, display and specular map settings are left at default and come out way too strong - almost as if an automatic conversion is taking place. Light and camera settings which are present in the DS version are often not present for Poser.

 

I guess now we understand how DS users felt when content were not tested in DS and they had to tweak everything to make it  presentable. I bought some products which were tested in DS (at least thats what the vendor said) but it just looked awful when rendered. Thats why I switched to poser. Only few vendor are competent enough to make decent shaders for both apps.

Quote -  I guess now we understand how DS users felt when content were not tested in DS and they had to tweak everything to make it  presentable. I bought some products which were tested in DS (at least thats what the vendor said) but it just looked awful when rendered. Thats why I switched to poser. Only few vendor are competent enough to make decent shaders for both apps.

Except that DAZ claims support for Poser in these products - it does NOT say "not supported" or "not tested"

If they would, I would not complain and either change the materials myself or decide not to buy it.

Quote - > Quote -  I guess now we understand how DS users felt when content were not tested in DS and they had to tweak everything to make it  presentable. I bought some products which were tested in DS (at least thats what the vendor said) but it just looked awful when rendered. Thats why I switched to poser. Only few vendor are competent enough to make decent shaders for both apps.

 

Except that DAZ claims support for Poser in these products - it does NOT say "not supported" or "not tested"

If they would, I would not complain and either change the materials myself or decide not to buy it.

This really sounds more like a personal preference rather than incompatiblity. You can always adjust bump and spec, because some things will look fine to one but not to another. I have to return a really nice outfit for M4 because mesh in the boots explodes when I pose M4 in DS but is fine in Poser. That's what not supported should mean.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote -  I guess now we understand how DS users felt when content were not tested in DS and they had to tweak everything to make it  presentable. I bought some products which were tested in DS (at least thats what the vendor said) but it just looked awful when rendered. Thats why I switched to poser. Only few vendor are competent enough to make decent shaders for both apps.

 

Except that DAZ claims support for Poser in these products - it does NOT say "not supported" or "not tested"

If they would, I would not complain and either change the materials myself or decide not to buy it.

This really sounds more like a personal preference rather than incompatiblity. You can always adjust bump and spec, because some things will look fine to one but not to another. I have to return a really nice outfit for M4 because mesh in the boots explodes when I pose M4 in DS but is fine in Poser. That's what not supported should mean.

I disagree completely. In some of the sets I really doubt that it was even rendered and looked at in Poser. The flaws are too obvious not to notice. And yes, I can adjust all the maps, but sometimes it is a LOT of work and if it is supposed to be Poser compatible, I should not have to do this.

But what I was saying originally is that the support for Poser has become less and this is one of the things where it shows.

And in your case - if a product is marketed to be DS compatible, then it should work without exploding and you should inform the creator and return it if it is not fixed.

This really sounds more like a personal preference rather than incompatiblity.

Totally. Vue has a similar issue, by default Vue knocks the highlight up on poser imported models. Maybe because most of the time isn't actually noticeble,  yet I've never seen anyone complain about it.

Which kinda makes me  ponder the thought is this only raised when someone needs a  quick and easy "ready made excuse" to product bash the work of another artist?

Also think it's sometimes a case of expecting too much or 'do it all for me' .  As an anology If I bought a ford car I wouldn't expect genric fit all parts to fit without a little tweaking. Yet as poser/studios users we  often expect it all.

Which isn't just lazy, but it means we're not learning anything. If we have to occasaionally fix something it means we learn more about our apps which in turn makes us better artists.

I modify textures, materials, lights and whatever all the time - that is not the point.

But if no effort has been done in a product - which claims to be poser compatible - to make it look acceptable and just leave all the nodes at default value, I consider that poor support for Poser.

If you import something designed for another program, I totally agree - it is up to the user to make it look good.

Quote - I modify textures, materials, lights and whatever all the time - that is not the point.

But if no effort has been done in a product - which claims to be poser compatible - to make it look acceptable and just leave all the nodes at default value, I consider that poor support for Poser.

If you import something designed for another program, I totally agree - it is up to the user to make it look good.

But once again, this sounds like personal preference as you don't like how the shaders came out. That is not a compatibility problem... the product works, you just don't like the way it looks.

That is your opinion - I have a different one.

In my opinion product should be made to look good in the programs which it claims to support and not have a simple node conversion from one program to the other without any effort to make it look acceptable.

Well, Mr. Sparky...when someone pays money for a commercial product they expect that it will work right out of the box ;). I do agree that ppl aren't learning anything, but that's another matter and not really related to the purchase of a commercial product :).

Laurie

It is like selling a car in bare metal with some cans of paint, and expect customers to paint it themselves.

And then saying; Hey do not complain, all the parts are there..

Oh yeah, and I like the oil to be IN the engine.Not still in the can.
And the air IN the tires, not around it.

And please do not provide a bucket of coolant.
Put it in the radiator.

Please, thank you.
;-)

Male_M3dia and wimvdb - you're both correct and working is the core thing here.

If a product/free says it's 100% for poservuestudio, and it only works in bogware v1, then yes theres a justifiable reason to complain.

But when it says works in whatever that means it loads, all the parts move and stuff and it'll render etc etc, it's done what it said on the tin nothing more. It's not promising anything else. Theres the difference, then a complaint would be unfair.

Poser stuff is designed for poser, studio stuff for studio, so why should we expect stuff to work in other apps without any tweaks?

The thing is that what works for one person might not work well for another. Your lighting might be different than the orginal creator, you might like Gamma Correction when the creator might not, you might be rendering close up when the bump was set to look good from a mid range, etc. There are all kinds of variables that are present that have to be factored into if it was "tested in Poser or not." It could have been tested. Just not the way all users might be using it.

I guess this is an endless debate.

I still think that a "Poser compatible" product should pay attention to how it renders in Poser. If it uses a reflection strenght of 100% on almost all materials being wood, marble or wall paper, it is plain wrong. Same goes for displacement and bump setting which are set to 1.5 cm. Light sets which are missing in one program and are present in another program - the lights may have to be adjusted to the users preferences but the position of things like spot and pointlights are usually fixed for any program

If you have to adjust 150 materials on a set of props for simple things like these, it is not a trivial thing to do. Not difficult, just tedious and taking a lot of time which should not be needed.

Some vendors do excellent work and even though I might not agree with their choices, I absolutely appreciate the effort they are doing in making it work in Poser.

There used to be much more attention to things like this in the DAZ store by the quality assurance team. That seems to have gone now

Quote - I guess this is an endless debate.

I still think that a "Poser compatible" product should pay attention to how it renders in Poser.

And that's where the personal preference comes into play. It may have been tested and the person that made it as well as the person that tested may have liked how it rendered... yet when you set up the scene and light it, you may have a different opinion of the settings. It is still compatible. If you don't like the way it renders in your scene, then you have to tweak the settings. This is far different than you load a product and it claims to be poser compatitble and a morph doesn't work, or a door in the building will not open, etc. That's when it is truly not compatible. Compatible means it works similarly, not it doesn't look right.

Quote - > Quote - I guess this is an endless debate.

I still think that a "Poser compatible" product should pay attention to how it renders in Poser.

And that's where the personal preference comes into play. It may have been tested and the person that made it as well as the person that tested may have liked how it rendered... yet when you set up the scene and light it, you may have a different opinion of the settings. It is still compatible. If you don't like the way it renders in your scene, then you have to tweak the settings. This is far different than you load a product and it claims to be poser compatitble and a morph doesn't work, or a door in the building will not open, etc. That's when it is truly not compatible. Compatible means it works similarly, not it doesn't look right.

The examples I gave are plain wrong in Poser. This is not a matter of personal preferences

This just reinforces the divide even though it may be an attempt at reconciliation. Pocketbooks and wallets will speak loudest in the end. The whole thing is so unfortunate and could have been avoided.

I never needed to be told WHERE in the store to find content to buy at DAZ until now, apparently.

to take an example of DAZ QA these days,  in their big promo of circus/fair props etc,

the 'Ferris Wheel' and its lights were not even loaded into Poser to try, or if they did the tester/s were told to ignore a BIG issue.

the 'Ferris Wheel Lights' crashed EVERY version of Poser, and the Carrara version crashed Carrara as well!!!.

they have also had a thread going asking for betatesters, only app knowledge required is for DS3/4.

a couple of threads were started about the issue, and several people contacted daz direct about it.

someone made a fix and posted it at sharecg, while it was up, no-one at DAZ told enquirers it was being looked at ( ie, the ones who contacted daz, never got a proper reply)  within 2 days of the fix being pulled from sharecg ( by the author) daz staff were in the forums stating that a fix was being produced.

coincidence?  i don't think so.

Quote - > Quote - I guess this is an endless debate.

I still think that a "Poser compatible" product should pay attention to how it renders in Poser.

And that's where the personal preference comes into play. It may have been tested and the person that made it as well as the person that tested may have liked how it rendered... yet when you set up the scene and light it, you may have a different opinion of the settings. It is still compatible. If you don't like the way it renders in your scene, then you have to tweak the settings. This is far different than you load a product and it claims to be poser compatitble and a morph doesn't work, or a door in the building will not open, etc. That's when it is truly not compatible. Compatible means it works similarly, not it doesn't look right.

Hello,

the impression of "compatibilty" is subject to a couple of aspects, including Poser version. Of course the lowest level of "compatibility" is that content loads without error messages. Now if we come to "looks right" that is difficult. Early content used the ambient channel to make skin look better. Today we say "wow great - glowing ghosts" and don't buy such crap, because it doesn't look right with all lighting situations. With the newest Poser release and SSS, I would expect proper skin use use that. But then, users of Poser version 8 or below would complain. Danie & Marforno supplied different versions (P4, PP, P5, P6) in their earlier work. That was an excellent level of support, I haven't seen with any other vendor.

Being a bit pessimistic, by "Poser compatibility" I nowaday assume only that I get ".pp2" and ".pz2" files which load without error in Poser. I assume that I can use the textures, but have to create the shaders myself. Of course that also lowers what I'm willing to pay for the product. I don't expect shaders as something I'd pay for (as part of a prop). Different story is buying shader packages, but there it's described for which software and which releases are supported.  

Btw, DAZ has a similar issue with Carrara compatibility, so it's not a fight of "DAZ vs. anyone else", it also exists in their own universe. In this case however, Carrara compatibility is quoted in the product pages only if there are Carrara specific (and optimized) shaders supplied.

Best regards,

   Michael

Compatible is not synonymous of designed-for.

E.g. GIMP 2.7.x is compatible with Windows: this means that it does not crash (often), works (most of the time), doesn't kill my Vista installation. At the same time, it still does look funny even with the UI improvements, there is no way I can force it to open maximized (I have to slightly reposition it every time), I had to install a theme for it not to crash when using fonts (what does themes have to do with fonts? quien sabe!).

If I want a designed-for program, I have just to shell 1000+ Euro and get Photoshop for Windows.

In addition, I would like to point out that for NO rendering engine in existence there is a one-to-one translation to another engine which transforms a great looking shader in an identically great looking shader. In every case you can call yourself lucky if the converted shader is a decent starting point; in most cases you don't even try to port shaders, you redo them from scratch (or use native items).

Assembly is required. Batteries are included but you have to recharge them first. Might cause baldness (due to hair ripping).

Quote - to take an example of DAZ QA these days,  in their big promo of circus/fair props etc,

the 'Ferris Wheel' and its lights were not even loaded into Poser to try, or if they did the tester/s were told to ignore a BIG issue.

the 'Ferris Wheel Lights' crashed EVERY version of Poser, and the Carrara version crashed Carrara as well!!!.

they have also had a thread going asking for betatesters, only app knowledge required is for DS3/4.

a couple of threads were started about the issue, and several people contacted daz direct about it.

someone made a fix and posted it at sharecg, while it was up, no-one at DAZ told enquirers it was being looked at ( ie, the ones who contacted daz, never got a proper reply)  within 2 days of the fix being pulled from sharecg ( by the author) daz staff were in the forums stating that a fix was being produced.

coincidence?  i don't think so.

Speculation? Definitely. Let's try to have a discussion without too much of this. ;)

I've bought stuff on other sites where items (including here) where an item passed testing, but there were issues when I used it. For instance I've bought a few M4 characters where the nipple was off on the template. It looked fine in the default, but as soon as i moved the nipple dial it came up in the wrong place. But then I simply emailed the vendor with the issue and it was resolved. There's no company is going to give you perfect products every time (see Windows patches for reference)... you just hope the company can give you fixes in a reasonable timeframe.

I keep my PC Membership because some of the discounts are significant and it pays for itself eventually with saved money.  I like the new Poser store at Daz, I really don't like studio but I may be forced to install it as more and more things I want will only work properly there.  I have had numerous Daz Studio issues over the years, and I'd had every version since the first one except I've not gotten the latest one because I've found past issues very frustrated, including lack of legacy support for add ons I've already purchased..  I also like Poser's lighting system and rendering engine better.  At least with the new Poser Store the stuff I buy should work ok in Poser, it makes it unnecessary to wade through all the Genesis stuff.

The thing is that what works for one person might not work well for another.
...I guess this is an endless debate.

Yep and theres also the differences between indivual versions of our programmes to factor in as well.

If you had to make "builds" for each core version, you'd need something like ..5 builds for poser, maybe 5/6 for studio, 2 or 3 for vue.. and thats before considering other apps like Carrara or any future updates.    

Which is exactly why my personal approach for products/freebies is to use a baseline "working" standard. I use P4/PP, texture maps only, no shaders, which means it'll always load OK in most apps. Plus I try where possible to ensure materials are sensible, can be easily adjusted or be replaced with a app specfic shader.

OK that does mean the artist might have to tweak a few bits to get the best results for their app. But is that really to much for a user to do? Moreso if a product is labelled say studio and a vue artist wants to use it.

If the product is advertized for Poser you assume that is tested and rendered in Poser and that obvious discrepancies between the Poser and DS version have been removed.

I don't mind tweaking a few bits, but if there are 150 materials, it is another matter.

I have been buying products from DAZ since they split off from Zygote and only in recent months I see this problem occur with some vendors. Maybe a requirement to put at least one promo render in Poser in the DAZ store for Poser compatible products would improve that situation

To be honest all this Poser/Daz compatibility stuff makes my head spin, that's why I've been shopping more and more at other vendors like here and Runtime DNA .  It used to be if you wanted professional level content you had to buy from Daz, but that's no longer true.  The quality of 3rd party content is now, in most cases just as good as any Daz offers.  If there becomes available higher qua,it's 3rd party people for Poser I'd even consider quitting Platinum Club, it looks encouraging with Antonia, now she needs a boyfriend.  I wish that the native Poser people were up to Daz standards and that people would make things for them, but they've not.

All this is why I've always said my stuff will work in only Poser....because I won't screw around with a program I don't use. I think if the vendors did just Poser or Daz, that would make things a lot easier for the customer. No questions then.

Laurie

Quote - I guess this is an endless debate.

I still think that a "Poser compatible" product should pay attention to how it renders in Poser. 

Sort of, but not really.

The term "compatible" is the word to focus on. If I buy something software-wise that says "IBM Compatible" (anyone remember that term?), it means that it would load and perform the basics, and to not have any glaring bugs that are experienced across the spectrum.

OTOH, expecting perfection and the exact same results, on a computer that may not even have its monitor color-calibrated? Nope. It's like heating up a microwave dinner and expecting the same bountious over-flowing image of plump vegetables and salisbury steak... or are there still people who expect that? 

C'mon - it's the same story if you buy it from DAZ, Renderosity, Content Paradise, RDNA.

They're like IKEA in a way. You see the pretty furniture, but you take home a box containing some sheets of laminated plywood, a bag of screws, and a sheet of instructions. You don't see too many folks bitching and moaning at IKEA if the results don't look like the showroom or suddenly attract bikini-clad nordic chicks, do you?

Quote - E.g. GIMP 2.7.x is compatible with Windows: this means that it does not crash (often), works (most of the time), doesn't kill my Vista installation.

I think I found your problem, right up there...