....aaand, you're still open to make your own goods at any time. Just like the merchies are.

Saves all the shouting, and the results can be passed around. 

Seriously, this is nothing to get all constipated about (hey, if we're doing a fecal theme, why not?)

The argument has been around since the dawn of time, and yet the ducats still decide that pr0n is (wait for it...) still king. Given that we're online, this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. 

If I don't find what I want or need, I make it. Takes a lot more time, but it works and I can always re-use it, or just pass it around for fun.

I didn't see any reference in your rants to http://poserclub.jp, but I do know that you can find a metric shitload (oop, there we go again) of ordinary clothing there, all for the grand price of $0.00 Oh, and don't fret over the Kanji text... the Chrome browser will happily translate it well enough to read and understand.

So, err, what was all the shoutng about again? Assless chaps? At least it's easier to take a dump in 'em if you ever get the squirts.

incidentally we share the same interests. i love antique/milsurp firearms, classic cars, etc. thing is, if i spent a couple weeks modeling a down-to-the-last-bolt accurate, articulated Mosin Nagant 1891/30 sniper rifle complete with cartridges/stripper clips, ERC sling, high-res textures and advanced shaders, 5 people would buy it.  for $5.  if im lucky.  in half that time i could model a corset for vicky and it would be a top seller.

90% of people just dont care because its a niche interest. of the remaining 10%, many either cant tell the difference between that and the 400 poly one in freestuff, or just dont care, or think that everything should be in freestuff. 'why would i spend $5 on that when theres one in freestuff already?'.
and if they dont care, can i blame them? no. you could spend months making the world's greatest 3D fire truck for poser and it would be of absolutely no interest to me.

i do, actually, model niche stuff in my free time. as a hobby, because i know ill never make any money from it.  im currently modeling an accurate articulated 1875 Schofield Cavalry model revolver that noone but me and perhaps 5 other people are going to give a flying f*ck about.

but for my store, since im not independantly wealthy, i make what people want to buy.
as for what i render in my personal time, why do you even care? if you want to render practical things, great - ive always fully supported your right to do so.  ive never started a 'whats with all these damned practical renders' thread, and i dont think anyone else has either.

ive actually given you honest advice from a vendor perspective as to what to do to encourage vendors to make niche products but youre more concerned about just standing on a soap box insulting 90% of this site's userbase to even consider it.

make your own.

I gave up years ago on seeing anything I can use - flight uniforms that are actually worn, period clothing thats actually from the period, etc.

so I've been slowly learning to model my own clothing as I want it (I normally model rooms and other non organics).

simplier in the long run.

"im currently modeling an accurate articulated 1875 Schofield Cavalry model revolver that noone but me and perhaps 5 other people are going to give a flying fck about. "*

make that 4 remaining to be found...

Oh my fucking god MacMyers...what the hell is the big problem? Geeze, don't be so damn testy. No one stepped on ur damn foot for crying out loud. Blackhearted was just voicing the market as HE sees it - from a vendors perspective. He wasn't trying to be a jerk.

Take Khai's advice and make the clothes you want. I had to do the very same. At least I'm learning a lot in the process.

Laurie

Sadly I have to agree with Blackhearted on this. I've made several sets of ordinary styled clothing, jeans and a shirt, shoes etc. for various figures. The first set I madewere Jans and a shirt for his GND2 character, and the first comment I got on it was "Nice set but would have been better if the pants zipper worked".

I sold these sets at or below the average.

I made one short mini-dress outfit, and on advice, made the textures some what racey, latex and vaguely see thru and raised the pricing slightly. Guess which one sold better?

Honestly, I feel better making more ordinary clothing (or less slutwear, if you will) but it just doesn;t sell as well. If you are making this stuff for sale to a mass market you have to offer what the masses are willing to pay for.

One andwer might be to be specific in your needs and contact merchants whose work you like and offer to PAY for them to create a specific clothing.

Put an ad up in the Jobs/Resume forum for contact with someone willing to take on the commision, and be specific in what you are looking to buy. It probably won;t be cheap but if they also think it might sell a few copies in their stores, they might cut you a break on the costs.

You can also post requests in the market place wishing well forum and see if others chime in, it might make a merchant try the clothing

You are a member at PoserWorld, they have a request forum over there, have you tried that?

I'm also sure there are other avenues you can explore to find what you want. In my experience posting a thread just to complain about the type of clothing seen in the market place is only going to lead to an arguement with vendors that are tired of being the target of rants like these. 

A person doing this for money is going to make what sells, doesn;t necesarrily mean they like it, just means that this is what puts money in their pockets and food on the table. If the market shifts and understated street clothing becomes the best sellers I'm sure most, if not all, of the vendors would shift to making that. Merchants don;t create that direction the morket goes in, they follow it.

Quote - Merchants don't create that direction the morket goes in, they follow it.

For the most part - and in the context of this discussion, I'll have to agree. It's a sad truth about the nature of the Poser artist and - leaving myself wide open for flames here - might account at least in part for the disdain non-Poser 3D professionals view us with. :blink:

Nothing to be done. 9mbi has a ton of stuff and so does PoserWorld... it's mostly stuff you'd see on the street:maybe not today (9mbi's fashion sense appears to be stuck in the '80s - I can almost smell the nylon acetate of the dresses) but it's not designed to be enticing.

Poserdom is a small part of the greater 3D world, as copious as the amount of content available to Poser artists must seem. Something to keep in mind.

The stand alone version does not at this time handle weight-map transfers, but that can be done by the WW2 version in Poser 9 and Poser Pro 2012.

For those who are interested in content that does not succumb to the normative skimpiness, try PoserWord.com. This site has a lot of the more ordinary cloths likely to be seen worn by real people everyday. The site specializes in this and has a different business model. It is worth a look.

lmk

Thanks for all, especially the vendor input. Just want to add,there are always new people coming aboard, and issues that are old hat to you "old timers" aren't to us. Please try to be patient with us. Beside, sometime, rehashing an old issue yields a new approach.

I just purchased the V4 and Antonia files for WW. I haven't gotten to the point of making clothes yet. Will be working on that eventually. So much to learn and do, so little time. Thanks again for an interesting and informative discussion.

Glad to see the thread getting back on track.  I certainly didn't intend this as an attack on any vendor.  As it is, BH is absolutely right.  

The business model of asking a vendor to custom make an item is, imho, a very valid one. I've done this a number of times.

In several cases, the vendor was willing to make the piece, but didn't think it had any commercial value. In those cases, I paid around $150 for each of the items. Yes, it was a goodly price. Yes, I use those items quite often, so it was worth it. It was a pittance against the 8-10K I've already spent on other Poser materials.

In several other cases, the vendor took what I wanted as a suggestion, and I actually got it for free for suggesting something that wound up making her some money!

Then there is the hybrid, underway right now, where the vendor is willing to make the piece for sale as long as I pay a premium for the first one.

Last but not least, one VERY kind lady here in this thread was willing to make a tee shirt that I needed for free. There really are nice people left in the world. You can find a number of them mentioned in the above list of vendors and modellers.

It all comes down to how bad do you want the item. As you can see... if I want something very badly, I'm willing to make it worth someone's while to model it.

As to learning to do it myself... I dunno. I've looked at every modeling program that's been recommended here, and they all seem far, far over my head. (And I'm not stupid... I hold multiple degrees in disciplines as diverse as electronics to psychology!) Perhaps it takes a brain wired in a certain way to be able to understand modelling. Perhaps I've just yet to find the right teacher.

At any rate, I think the community should consider commissions as a valid way to get niche content made. It's fair to everyone involved.

My $.02

regarding commissions:
few experienced vendors are going to make an entire quality conforming outfit, character/textures, set, etc for a couple hundred bucks.  quality work takes time, and even if you only pay them minimum wage its still going to add up. unfortunately this puts quality commissions out of the reach of most hobbyists.

but i can suggest two 'business models' that could potentially work out well for all involved:

1. get some people together and do a group commission. start a thread on it in the wishing well and drum up support, get others to donate, and you can raise a lot more money for a commission than otherwise. a mere twenty interested people contributing $25 is already $500. a thread where you are offering a fixed amount of cash for a certain product is going to get a more serious response than 'oh, i wish someone would make blahblah for poser'.

2. do a 'partial commission'. by this i mean that you are not demanding full exclusive rights to the final product, and afterwards the vendor can put it in their own store and sell it. so you are paying a fee to basically 'hijack' a vendor's direction. you get what you want made, you get creative input, and you get it before anyone else.... but once its done, the vendor can then put it in their store to recover the rest of its development costs. many vendors would be open to this type of arrangement, but again the less marketable a product is the more incentive youll likely have to give them. 

aah you mean a Kickstarter idea?

infact... you could use Kickstarter for it anyway

Quote -

1. do a 'partial commission'. by this i mean that you are not demanding full exclusive rights to the final product, and afterwards the vendor can put it in their own store and sell it. so you are paying a fee to basically 'hijack' a vendor's direction. 

This wouldn't be a bad idea at all, and I suspect that the folks stumping the initial cash wouldn't mind or care either way if it got sold commercially afterwards. 

"Last but not least, one VERY kind lady here in this thread was willing to make a tee shirt that I needed for free. There really are nice people left in the world. You can find a number of them mentioned in the above list of vendors and modellers."

i'll gladly help make basic items/objects for people for free.

the problem is that most of the time ive done it, the person wants everything spoon-fed to them and is usually unwilling to take any time/initiative to learn any of the aspects of content creation themselves.

this is how it usually goes, at least in my experience:

'i need a model of an M1 Abrams tank'

me: 'i happen to have one i made in my spare time (weeks of time invested), you can have it if you like'

'oh, thanks'

me: 'ill need your email'

'blahblah@ispprovidermail.com'

me: i go through my backup folders, dig up the tank, UV map it, .zip it.  after trying 3 times to send the 12 meg file, first in one part, then in two 6 meg parts, then in three 4 meg parts because the guys email only takes <4 meg attachments, i finally send it.

'hi i got it. but what is this .rar file? i dont know what to do with it?'

me: 'www.rarlab.com'

'hi. all i see is a huge list of links. what do i do?'

me: i send a direct link to the winrar file and type out an explanation of how to download/install/use it.

'hi. i got it extracted but all i see is an .obj file. what now?'

me: you import it into poser using import: wavefront .obj and then go to the material room, youll see a list of materials like Turret, Metal, Tracks, Lights, etc and you need to set up materials for them. you can use just basic material colors or you can get fancy with procedural shaders.

'oh. i dont know how to do that'

me: googles 'heres a link to some material room tutorials'

'this is all very confusing, can you just set up materials like this for me?'

me: i spend a couple hours setting up shaders for the tank. i send the mt5 file.

'i got the file, thanks. what do i do with it?'

me: explains

'i got it loaded, thanks. but the turret doesnt rotate. i need it to rotate all the way around for the render im making'

me: googles here is a link that explains how to rig simple objects in poser.

'that is so confusing. could you give me a step by step?'

me: does the rigging for him, sends him the new file

'hi i got the file. what do i do with it?'

me: explains

'i got it working, thanks. this is good, but the treads dont move. and id really like it to have the 11th armored cav markings, and some battle damage on the left front? i need that for my render'

i sh*t you not this is how nearly every free item ive given away has went.  people want everything spoonfed to them. if you want something for free, please be prepared to use google and the site search function to find the answers to simple questions such as how to import an .obj, how to use the material room, how to make simple decals in photoshop, etc.

I dunno, I give away gobs of free stuff and I've gotten few real questions about how it's to be used.  The dumb or lazy questions I pretty much ignore though.  In your example, at the point of the "how do I unpack a .rar file" the conversation would be over.

Quote - In several other cases, the vendor took what I wanted as a suggestion, and I actually got it for free for suggesting something that wound up making her some money!

This is pretty much the only way I'd consider taking a commission, yeah.

Quote - I dunno, I give away gobs of free stuff and I've gotten few real questions about how it's to be used.  The dumb or lazy questions I pretty much ignore though.  In your example, at the point of the "how do I unpack a .rar file" the conversation would be over.

i guess i just need to learn to say 'im sorry, i am too busy right now to _____'.

Quote - I dunno, I give away gobs of free stuff and I've gotten few real questions about how it's to be used.  The dumb or lazy questions I pretty much ignore though.  In your example, at the point of the "how do I unpack a .rar file" the conversation would be over.

You know it. And in a hurry...lol. I don't give support for freebies period. If someone has the odd question that I already know the answer to, I'll answer it, but I won't really go out of my way. After all, the item was free and they can even use it commercially. I have however gotten bitched at for not making a FREE item DS compatible. Kinda makes ya wanna not give things away, don't it? ;).

Laurie

I really hope the people appreciate the support you give to your freebies. If they are half the quality of your sold products, they would still be great. 

The discussion about people aren't gratefull enough when it comes to freebies isn't new. There are some people who pulled their freebies because they got complains about them, or felt that they did not get enough positive and thankfull feedback. 

Quote -
i guess i just need to learn to say 'im sorry, i am too busy right now to _____'.

No shit - I usually tell them to RTFM at the point where they ask what a .rar is.

Oh hell, who am I kidding? I usually point 'em to Archibase or a similar site long before that. I think I can count only one time I've given away something that was requested... it was a quickie vagina morph I cooked up for the original Alexa figure, done mostly for giggles.

Quote - After all, the item was free and they can even use it commercially. I have however gotten bitched at for not making a FREE item DS compatible. Kinda makes ya wanna not give things away, don't it? ;).

Laurie

Man I know all about it. I even got DS3 and DS4 to do just that. Then I got griped at because they couldn't apply the DS3 shader in DS4. I gave up and said that's it. You are on your own. I use Poser not DS. Get someone else to do a shader/texture for you.

Everyone wants to be an instant artist. Get creative. Learn to do more than push a button. My grandkids no longer need to be spoon fed. You shouldn't either.

Sorry to get off topic. I'll fade back into the darkness now.

pdg

Quote - I really hope the people appreciate the support you give to your freebies. If they are half the quality of your sold products, they would still be great. 

The discussion about people aren't gratefull enough when it comes to freebies isn't new. There are some people who pulled their freebies because they got complains about them, or felt that they did not get enough positive and thankfull feedback. 

Well, I'm not gonna pull freebies for a few grumps ;). It sorta takes the shine off of making new ones tho.

Laurie

Funny bit of trivia: One of the very very few times I got a straight complaint about something I'd done was for a commercial item - from someone who had pirated it.  What made the guy think it was a good idea to contact me I've no idea.

Quote - Funny bit of trivia: One of the very very few times I got a straight complaint about something I'd done was for a commercial item - from someone who had pirated it.  What made the guy think it was a good idea to contact me I've no idea.

There's an idiot in every group ;).

Laurie

Quote - > Quote - Funny bit of trivia: One of the very very few times I got a straight complaint about something I'd done was for a commercial item - from someone who had pirated it.  What made the guy think it was a good idea to contact me I've no idea.

There's an idiot in every group ;).

Laurie

Almost makes me believe kawecki's sig line.  Almost. 

From time to time this same topic/issue comes up.

Been that way since I first joined renfro, a long, long long time ago, in a galaxy that's well not so far away.

Yet when merchants, hobbyists etc...come along, and are willing to model "real world" cloths, and worse yet, have the gall to actually try and make some small profit by selling them in the various MP's out there, they get zero support from the community.

Lets face it folks, it's the T&A that sells, so it'll be the T&A products that get made simple as that really.

Oh, p.s. Yes I AM a prude, and proud of it!