I just got Poser Pro 2012 and am trying to switch over from BB's skin shader in VSS to the one he has written about over at Runtimedna. I think he calls this new one the "James shader". I'm trying it on a fair or light skin texture. It seems to darken the skin and shadows. If you look at the picture below, the ears, neck and chest have the original VSS shader but the face has the new shader. Any ideas as to what I am doing wrong?

I'll post the shader in a minute.

Here's the shader

One thing to do is replicate the shader for the other parts of the body.

Another thing is to check the lights.

 

Experts please chime in.....

I'm definitely no expert but yeah...

-- lights?

-- render settings?

-- Are you using IDL?

-- A skydome?

-- Raytrace vs depth-mapped shadows?

-- Are all your non-colour map settings set to GC = 1?

-- Are you using renderer GC?

Critically important: what are your Poser units set to?

The materials without the shader look overblown, and almost even unendered. Apply the shader to all skin groups, and then adjust lights.

My original VSS shader has shader gamma built in - which you should be turning off if you're rendering with render GC enabled.

That could explain a major difference in brightness - accidentally doing double GC. If the shader gamma is 1 and you have render GC enabled, you need to change the shader gamma to 1. The new scatter shader, intended for PP2012, has no GC in it it.

Also, in general, there is no assurance that the scatter nodes will produce a similar brightness as the diffuse nodes. In fact, it is almost certain that they do not, all other things being equal. Why? Because if light scatters forward, then by definition some of it did not bounce backward towards the light source. Therefore, the unlit side can only be scatter-lit if the lit side is scatter-darkened. I hope that makes sense - I have only had one cup of coffee so far.

> Quote - My original VSS shader has shader gamma built in - which you should be turning off if you're rendering with render GC enabled. > > That could explain a major difference in brightness - accidentally doing double GC. If the shader gamma is 1 and you have render GC enabled, you need to change the shader gamma to 1. The new scatter shader, intended for PP2012, has no GC in it it. > > Also, in general, there is no assurance that the scatter nodes will produce a similar brightness as the diffuse nodes. In fact, it is almost certain that they do not, all other things being equal. Why? Because if light scatters forward, then by definition some of it did not bounce backward towards the light source. Therefore, the unlit side can only be scatter-lit if the lit side is scatter-darkened. I hope that makes sense - I have only had one cup of coffee so far.

 

Yes I understand your point about the GC in the VSS shader. I never had it correcting up to 2.2, but kept it a little lower. In PP 2012, when I check the GC box I understand I'll be over correcting for the VSS shaded parts, so you make a good point I now understand. I'm not really so worried about that as now having to increase the light intensities over my old settings so the new shaded skin looks lighter. The lights here are the same as I had in PP7, it just seems I'll have to turn them up significantly from those old setting to lighten the face (and everything else). I don't recall seeing anyone else say they were doing that. In fact I thought with the GC box checked, I would find my old lights were too bright.

My lights are as shown here. I'll post the render setting next. I did try to read all the runtimedna posts to see if anything similar had been seen by others. Thanks for the help. 

The render setting...Thanks again.

Well, I found that generally speaking the scatter-based shaders are all darker than we're used to. This may be because we have all gotten used to shaders that are unrealistic. I've been considering that possibility for a few weeks, and experimenting with diffuse value on non-scatter shaders set to .4 instead of .8. Of course, this would mean adjusting every shader you have to match scatter shaders and then boosting all the lights you've ever used.

or...

If you took a look at some of the other scatter shaders I posted, you'll see an HSV node in every one. That is there to boost the output of the shader.

In this shader, if you insert an HSV at the Alternate_Diffuse, you can use it as a final amplifier stage, adjusting the luminance via the HSV "Value" parameter. Increase it above 1 to boost the output.

Quote - Well, I found that generally speaking the scatter-based shaders are all darker than we're used to. This may be because we have all gotten used to shaders that are unrealistic. I've been considering that possibility for a few weeks, and experimenting with diffuse value on non-scatter shaders set to .4 instead of .8. Of course, this would mean adjusting every shader you have to match scatter shaders and then boosting all the lights you've ever used.

or...

If you took a look at some of the other scatter shaders I posted, you'll see an HSV node in every one. That is there to boost the output of the shader.

In this shader, if you insert an HSV at the Alternate_Diffuse, you can use it as a final amplifier stage, adjusting the luminance via the HSV "Value" parameter. Increase it above 1 to boost the output.

 

Okay, I understand. I had seen where that was in some of the other shaders over at runtimedna, so I'll try that.

Is the "James shader" still your most recent one or is there something later and better? It was those renders that convinced me to buy PP2012.

Thanks again...off to work for now...

Can't logically answer your question. There are shaders that were later, but not better. Different. Elderly skin, for example.

 

Asking what shader is better implies there is a single dimension of goodness. There isn't.

I can show where a shader is inferior on any single dimension, but nothing absolutely compares to everything else with a conceptual rank that makes sense.

What's better: pretzels or ice cream?

Quote - What's better: pretzels or ice cream?

Vanilla Icecream with carmel swirls and chocolate-covered pretzels, of course.

What I find interesting about this discussion is that since I've been using SSS and full GC in Poser Pro 2012, my view on what normal skin should look like in a render has changed.  When I look at the older renders in my gallery, skin and hair look completely oversaturated.  These looked good at the time because that's what I'd grown accustomed to seeing.

The HSV node is exceedingly useful in creating variations on skin tone.  I've used the James skin shader to good effect, but I've also done a few of my own.  Once you've grown accustomed to working with SSS, it's really not that difficult to use.

Also, I've discovered that using by using an environment sphere and panoramic images, I often don't need light at all to achieve realistic results.  (Some of my panoramas have been blurry, though.  I'm not sure why.)  So, I encourage Mark, the OP, to keep experimenting with this.

The blurriness can be attributed to your camera focal length.  A smaller focal of length of 28-35mm will sharpen the dome image because it is taking more viewing area under consideration.  But this is at a sacrifice of rendering your figure under a wide angle setting; not very flattering if you are attempting to render closups.  However, once you try to render with short to medium telephoto lenses, you narrow your viewing range and magnify the background.  Subsequently, the image degrades and becomes blurry.

Quote - Some of my panoramas have been blurry, though.  I'm not sure why.

Two factors come into play. One is the resolution of the panoramic image. I use images that are at least 6, 000 pixels wide, and often 10, 000 wide. Lower resolution images are liable to produce less detail.

The other factor is the field of view in your render. If you have a long focal length (telephoto) then your field of view may be only a few degrees. Say you have a field of view of about 5 degrees, and your panoramic image is 10,000 pixels wide - each horizontal line of your render will have 5/360 * 10,000 = 139 pixels of information from the panoramic image.

If you use a short focal length (wide angle) then you might have a field of view of, say, 20 degrees. 20/360 * 10, 000 = 556 pixels of information.

High resolution image + short focal length = sharp backgrounds

If I look at the shader, there are some nodes that are completely obsolete because they aren't connected to anything. Can you show the body-shader as well?

best regards,

Bopper.

 

Edit: I just saw the James-shader at RDNA, and I noticed BB did post a shader with two possibilities, subsurface skin and SSS with blinn, perhaps you have used one on the body and the other on the face. To get equal results you have to use the same on both.

B.

Edit2: Pesonally I prefer the SSS and blinn. I get great results with it.

You are right bopper, there is a color_math node that appears unconnected.  Was this an oversight or done on purpose?

It was done on purpose. See my edit on the last post, and the thread at RDNA.

B.

Noted.

I will never do that again. So many people do not read that it is two shaders in one, for purposes of examination and comparison.

Exact. But difficullt to choose between SSS and S+Blinn ...

So i choose S+Blinn, the SSS done strange results

I've donne two little modifications ...

Reducing the specular value cause the FBR, i call that specular reflexion.

Only one turbulence for the bump and the specular value. The older shader have two differents turbulence who dont match.

Note also deviation from the short names I gave the two variations.

 

SSS = Sub Surface Skin node

S+B = Scatter and Blinn nodes

I prefer S+B, not SSS. I think you did too, bopper, but you said SSS and Blinn.

Edit.

You're right. I didn't know better that SSS stands for sub surface scattering. Sorry for the confusion. I prefer S+B.

Bopper.

But if I look at the original post of the OP, the problem has to be somewhere else. If I use a shader on the skin material of the VSS-prop, and I don't have added any new materials like face or lips or whatever, all my skin-surfaces would have the same shader. If the OP has used an original unchanged VSS-prop and put the shader on the skin-material, I suppose he wouldn't get this result. Allthough I have to admit that sometimes I have to run synchronise twice to get the acquired result, but that happens mostly when I have added a customized material, like suntan or face.

@Mark@pose: Have you used a original VSS-prop or a customized one?

 

> Quote - But if I look at the original post of the OP, the problem has to be somewhere else. If I use a shader on the skin material of the VSS-prop, and I don't have added any new materials like face or lips or whatever, all my skin-surfaces would have the same shader. If the OP has used an original unchanged VSS-prop and put the shader on the skin-material, I suppose he wouldn't get this result. Allthough I have to admit that sometimes I have to run synchronise twice to get the acquired result, but that happens mostly when I have added a customized material, like suntan or face. > > @Mark@pose: Have you used a original VSS-prop or a customized one? > >  

I copied BB's James shader (it was posted as a .mt5 file) and applied it only to the face as a material. I kept my previous P7 shader (which was the VSS shader) for the head (ears and lips), neck, and shoulders. I am only experimenting at this point and wanted to compare the two. I didn't want to vary too much at one time. I saw where BB set up the shader for either S+B or SSS and was playing with that too.

I tried adding in the hsv node. This is the new image. The skin is lighter, but still off to my eye. It seems too homogeneous now. I'll play with the lights a little more.

Good suggestions about the camera, so I'll play with that some once I get happier with the shader.

 

Thanks