I've had a lot of disagreements with some of the folk posting in this thread, some voiced and some not, but I cant argue with the need for poser to ship with a top notch male and female figures along with a modest assortment of basic content for them.  

I also agree that it is worth, not necsarrily setting aside the current generation figures, but definitly setting in place a new origional mesh or male/female pair of meshes that would become the new 'standard' poser figure.  It/they would need to be fundamentally top notch and allow for versatility in morphing, simpler content creation, and superb rigging to make posing less a pain for them that hates it.

The other thing not yet mentioned in this thread...I'd absolutely LOVE to see SM liscence or re-create Dimension3Ds morphing clothes functionality within poser.  

"Sure, Poser can skate by for a good distance of time on Vicky/Mike 4, but eventually people are going to start looking at the shiny new figures that keep coming out over there, and well eventually want that more than what they can get from or for Poser. Even worse, someday soon, folks won't be able to download Vicky4 from the source"

This may happen sooner than we suspect.
people need to consider the possible
intentions of the recently announced "lightweight scene description format" "DSON".

Even those poser users who say: "I dont need any new figures, I have enough,
* I only buy quality building sets&content from "Stonemason" and other DAZ vendors"*

Well its likely that "DSON"  will become the standard for all DAZ content distribution with support Data/files (including legacy V4/M4)  only available in your account in the "cloud" and only downloadable from within Daz studio 4-5.

Cheers

Quote - I have seem things in people's wish lists that are already in poser if I understood them correctly.

that's no excuse for not developing them further or find better working alternatives.

a nature-like male and female figure that stands up against verification would be nice though.  

Quote -

What I'm trying to say is, not even half of what sells poser is the feature-set. The meshes are what makes up more than half of the sale. It's time to take a good hard look at making that half work for you, instead of hoping that someone else does it.

I agree that half of what sells poser is the meshes, you see mesh complaints everytime a new version of poser comes out. People compare the meshes within minutes and decide they are not good enough.

The poser community needs to be a little honest with itself though. Slutwear is what sells, big breasts and slutwear. Look at the past SM clothing sets, farmer sets, time period sets, they are close to real world but no one cares. It keeps getting requested but it doesn't sell to the silent majority. V4 is even made for high heels.

There have been better figures in the past or at least on par with the current mil figure of its time, yet v3-v4-vanynumber will dominate. The one size fits all model works for the erotic community behind the scenes.

The poser model is at a no win, they could make the best mesh ever and it will not satisfy enough people. The Vicky PR machine will roll it. That leaves Sm in a tough place. They could go the route of Dosch type models, Axyz etc, maybe even license a model from Andrey Kravchenko or another turbo squid modeler.

If it will cost the consumer to intergrate genesis then I really hope they do not for its not useful outside the app it runs in due to mesh distortion. Adding it would also mean slow down as more stuff gets tacked on and pasted in. However I see the argument for it, the quick art people and newbies to the community will eat that type of toy up.

I am happy with vicky 2, not big on the bloated one size fits all model style myself so I am in a super minority. I dont need a lion that morphs into a mutated tiger, in turn morphing into something that might resemble a panther.

I would like to see sub division added, and possibly some sort of effects system. Particle would be nice but then we are getting into max, lightwave territory so am ok if they come up with a lower end solution to start with. Maybe borrow from the gaming industry style of effects, though they usually depend on the effect being animated.

Instancing would be amazing and very useful.

Mostly I would like to see them make it more and more optimized so it runs faster. I keep back peddling versions due to it becoming slower even though my rig is faster.

If they have to focus on content to make the program more viable then so be it.  I just hope if they do go the route of working on content more, they do not adopt the draconian in app content store with content delivery always attempting to sell me stuff I dont need or want.

My art is for me and by me, not a render of whats on sale new this week.

Quote -
Even those poser users who say: "I dont need any new figures, I have enough,
* I only buy quality building sets&content from "Stonemason" and other DAZ vendors"*

Well its likely that "DSON"  will become the standard for all DAZ content distribution with support Data/files (including legacy V4/M4)  only available in your account in the "cloud" and only downloadable from within Daz studio 4-5.

Cheers

I very much doubt that.if anything the new .zips should make it easier to use in Poser,or any other app.

even if it did happen I'd just find another outlet to distribute Poser versions of my content.I recognise many poser users have no intention of ever installing or using D|S and I'm very keen to keep making Poser versions of everything I make.

thanks

Stefan

PS:I would personaly love to see instancing available in newer versions of Poser,that would allow for a much richer level of detail in my environment work.

I really don't understand the level of discontent that some people seem to have, If I really wanted to use the genesis figures in their natural habitat, I'd take the time to learn Daz Studio, but tbh, I can't stick it. My preference. I agree with the comment, "why does every discussion seem to focus on the genesis figures", in my honest opinion, those that want genesis should stop bitching and move over to Daz, there's only so much that any one program can offer, I dont want to pay over a thousand pounds for Poser2014, because it has a new mesh figure, that completely alienates it from the hobby artist budget. Look at the current modelling programs out there, Modo , Z brush, Maya, Autodesk, Rhino, all highly priced and out of most hobby artists budget. Look at the prices of stand alone mesh figures in the market place. Just keep tweaking the program step by step, have a core of devoted followers and users and well you get my drift. I've been trying modelling for a few weeks now and have come to understand the level of skill that it takes to create simple items, let alone a completely new figure, which in all honesty after a few weeks , people will be bitching about again, because it doesn't do this or that.

Quote - Why does every thread about poser always turn into a thread about genesis? 

 

~Shane

Beats the fuck out of me. And I'm getting damn well sick of it too.

Laurie

Quote - > Quote -

Even those poser users who say: "I dont need any new figures, I have enough,
* I only buy quality building sets&content from "Stonemason" and other DAZ vendors"*

Well its likely that "DSON"  will become the standard for all DAZ content distribution with support Data/files (including legacy V4/M4)  only available in your account in the "cloud" and only downloadable from within Daz studio 4-5.

Cheers

 

I very much doubt that.if anything the new .zips should make it easier to use in Poser,or any other app.

even if it did happen I'd just find another outlet to distribute Poser versions of my content.I recognise many poser users have no intention of ever installing or using D|S and I'm very keen to keep making Poser versions of everything I make.

thanks

Stefan

 

PS:I would personaly love to see instancing available in newer versions of Poser,that would allow for a much richer level of detail in my environment work.

THANK you! :). I'm not sure I could live without your things in Poser...lol.

Laurie

I use Poser.
And I ONLY use Poser.
No add-ons, no scripts, just Poser and its figures.

I tried all the V's and family, yes I did.

I come back to Poser.

Poser dead? Poser not selling?
Poser is very much alive and kicking.

But?? Most posters are right.

I recently checked ALL Poser figures, and unfortunately, ALL are having problems.

Not being welded, not bending right, scaling issues.

Plain ugly, and sometimes, realy stupid poly distrubution.

The best Poly distribution I found was on the Poser 4 and Poser 5 figures.

After those , the high Poly hype kicked in, and all figures became a high poly pollution mess.

So?
Does Poser have a futute?
YES? it sure does.
But for the figures??

Forget high Poly just for the high Poly of the high Poly's Poly-hype.
(I think I forgot a Poly somewhere there...)

Go for Poly distribution, and PLEASE, clean the mesh once it is finished.
Every Poly HAS to actively and effectively DO something in 3D or it is Pollution.
CLEAN the mesh..

Where is my hammer.
We need a Hammer to knock this in some heads.

Quote - Well its likely that "DSON"  will become the standard for all DAZ content distribution with support Data/files (including legacy V4/M4)  only available in your account in the "cloud" and only downloadable from within Daz studio 4-5.

Cheers

If that's the case, DAZ will be cutting their own throats AND the vendors'.

Bet that will go over real well (NOT).

Quote - > Quote -

Even those poser users who say: "I dont need any new figures, I have enough,
* I only buy quality building sets&content from "Stonemason" and other DAZ vendors"*

Well its likely that "DSON"  will become the standard for all DAZ content distribution with support Data/files (including legacy V4/M4)  only available in your account in the "cloud" and only downloadable from within Daz studio 4-5.

Cheers

 

I very much doubt that.if anything the new .zips should make it easier to use in Poser,or any other app.

even if it did happen I'd just find another outlet to distribute Poser versions of my content.I recognise many poser users have no intention of ever installing or using D|S and I'm very keen to keep making Poser versions of everything I make.

thanks

Stefan

 

PS:I would personaly love to see instancing available in newer versions of Poser,that would allow for a much richer level of detail in my environment work.

Nice one, mate!  I always said you were a good guy and my offer to come over and jam still stands. :) 

Quote - I very much doubt that.if anything the new .zips should make it easier to use in Poser,or any other app. even if it did happen I'd just find another outlet to distribute Poser versions of my content.I recognise many poser users have no intention of ever installing or using D|S and I'm very keen to keep making Poser versions of everything I make.

thanks

Stefan

 

PS:I would personaly love to see instancing available in newer versions of Poser,that would allow for a much richer level of detail in my environment work.

Whew!  Crush that "rumor" FAST!

Good to see you here, Stefan.

Good to hear in either case!

BTW Stephan Let me  thank you again for your generous FREE donation of your "Skate Park" Set For one of  my Film client animation gigs last year.

Although my clients "vision" did not allow for your set to be featured prominently in the simulated Video game sequence
I did manage to "sneak" it in the background  of one of the shots.

I also gave you a "Set prop" credit Along with Micheal Rak(AKA sanctumart) in the opening pages of my Digital
Comic I published a while back

LINK

Cheers

Soft body dynamics seems fairly popular. If it would actually provide an alternative to dynamic cloth & hair to some degree, even better. I don’t know if it’s the difficulty of implementing SBD or what, but IMO it should have been added before a lot of other stuff.

Uh Oh, Laurie’s channeling her inner longshoreman again ÷)

“Why does every thread about poser always turn into a thread about genesis?”

A symptom of the conscious or unconscious realization of just how important content is to the health of the application. Until the replacement figure issue is well settled, there will be anxiety.

Despite protestations to the contrary and calls from the pulpit not to look back on the wickedness lest they be turned to Morton’s Iodized, there are apostates in the Church who feel that the delicious manna just can’t be as tasty as the vittles Mama made. Even some of the glory shouting Deacons probably still secretly want rent-boy Mike to lift their luggage. Until Sacred Mountain begs, borrows or creates a woman enough like Mama to make Oedipus wreck when he sees her walk by, they’s gonna be some kvetchin’. Even then, expect to hear a few of those parishioners who ‘couldn’t care less,’ deliver news from the evil empire faster than the Sodom Sentinel – with editorial assurance that, Dude, it’s way less bit**in’ than the Promised Land. – not that they’ve been there of course. Yea, verily, there is life after Pravda. Relax, pull up a pew. It’ll be over in about…well, I hear Sherman’s still not too popular in Georgia so it may be a while. As the Jewish kid whose math scores shot up after he went to Catholic school said, “When I saw that guy nailed to the plus sign, I knew they were serious!” Thank you, goodnight.

“Why does every thread about poser always turn into a thread about genesis?”

It is not about Genesis, it not about about Daz either. Its about Poser's survival. Not to talk about Daz/Genesis would be equal to the four elephants sitting in a boat about to tip over in the great waterfall. "We are in great danger be careful don't do anything sit absolutly still".

Quote - Soft body dynamics seems fairly popular. If it would actually provide an alternative to dynamic cloth & hair to some degree, even better. I don’t know if it’s the difficulty of implementing SBD or what, but IMO it should have been added before a lot of other stuff.

I think knocking a wall through, between the cloth and hair rooms and integrating / expanding these into one big, more adaptable dynamics room, to handle soft body, fluid, physics collisions and hair dynamics would be good... particle simulations as well.

However, maybe the design / styling aspects of hair should be moved to a separate "hair and makeup" room (along with the Face Room) and, at the same time, the design aspects of the cloth room could be moved into a separate Marvelous Designer inspired sewing room...

;-)

I'd like a separate "Morph Room" too... with more performant, intuitive morphing tools.

I'm thinking performance on a par with Sculptris' smoothing / grabbing tools, for example (ignoring the dynamic subdivision aspects of that particular program).

;-)

Quote -
The poser model is at a no win, they could make the best mesh ever and it will not satisfy enough people. The Vicky PR machine will roll it. That leaves Sm in a tough place. They could go the route of Dosch type models, Axyz etc, maybe even license a model from Andrey Kravchenko or another turbo squid modeler.

So, you roll it harder. Get a badass mesh that is nice and flexible, and two simple things will sell it hard:

1. make 'em so that you can generate a wide variety of pretty/studly morphs from it

2. give 'em working genitalia

That second part will make it stand out big-time, since DAZ doesn't really do much of anything in that particular department.

If you make the figure easy to build clothing for, the "slutwear" will come of its own accord.

Quote - Mostly I would like to see them make it more and more optimized so it runs faster. I keep back peddling versions due to it becoming slower even though my rig is faster.

Not to wander off-topic, but yeah, I agree with this big-time. 

SM should just buy the 3rd Gen mesh from DAZ and rework it to modern standards.

I doubt anyone could come up with a better mesh topology, better morphs or better, more "hobbyist- friendly" UV-mapping.

I put the lo-res head on the high-res body and got myself a mesh that is just 35.000 polygons but still has all the muscularity detail needed.  And you really can't tell the low-res head from the high-res one in 99% of the renders people usually make.

And it's much easier to paint a good displacement map for the face than for the body. (The overall low resolution mesh is the one thing I do not like about Genesis.)

Seriously, DAZ has "vaulted" all their 3rd gen stuff anyway, they might just as well sell it to SM.

Yeah, won't happen, I know.

But that mesh and it's morphs is still state of the art and nearly indestructible.

I'm reeeeeeaaaaallly testing it's limits for a few years now and it never, ever dissapointed me. :-)

Resculpt it so that it looks like an actual human being, then weightmap it, then add a plugin that converts old clothes to the new shape/rigging and Bob's yer Uncle.

Oh, and fix the single axis scaling.

Again, I know, won't happen.

Just saying it worked for me, might just as well work for other Poser users, too.

i like the hotswap uvs idea.  did someone mention that already?

I would like a Morph room with Wings style moving of verts and edges.  able to lock onto selected verts and be able to rotate the camera without losing the selection.

able to keyframe the dynamic guide hairs (the green squares.)

light a room like vray.

expand a face room for the whole body.  even though i don't have much luck/skill with face photographs in the face room.

an option to turn on a dinger when a render finishes.  my monitor is on 2 pcs, i have to switch between inputs to see if the render is finished.

can it wash dishes and do laundry? 

Poser is not an all-in-all 3d program, that you can use on its own to make images. It heavily depends on its capability to import models you or someone else created in other 3d programs. So Poser should strive to be able to import every 3d-format in existence. That includes the daz-studio format. But of course they should try to include others, too, what could a .max license cost?

SM is not a content factory, they make software. And as interesting it would be for them to start seriously making characters, i think they should concentrate an what they can do best for now, and probably that means for them making software. Of course, i know that they will do what they believe they can do best, which may be a totally different thing (i have no idea what that is).

As for the software improvements, i think they should do is making things work well that currently do not work well. I often get the impression Poser is not a single program, but actually a bunch of programs, namely Poser 4, Poser 5 and Poser 8, which they somehow managed to stuff into a single window on the desktop. For example:

you can enable GC on one texture, because it is a color, but then it will change to GC for every material within Poser, even when not used as a color.

It has this cool feature called dependent parameters, that you can use to make some values change based on other values, and it has another cool feature called "point at" to change one objects orientation based on another objects position, but those two are not combinable with each other for no obvious reason.

Any figure seems to use some version of it with the valueOpDeltaAdd or something like that in the cr2 file which you cannot create from within Poser, but only with a texteditor and some hours reading lesbentley's posts. I wonder if the programmers of the dependent parameters and the programmers of the valueOpDeltaAdd ever met in person.

The general rule seems to be: The older and more established any poser feature is, the more i would guess it would be easily accessible, but for some reason this is not the case -- the older a feature in Poser is, the more likely you will need a text editor to use it.

I think sooner or later they must bring all those features together into one program, otherwise nobody will understand anymore what and when something works and when it does not. Sure all new features are nice, but i would not be surprised if they implemented, say Catmull Clark, but in such a way that you could not use it with magnets at the same time or something like that.

I am more than happy with Poser and I have been having great fun for years.  When the next version of Poser comes out I will probably buy it but only if I think it is value for money and will increase my enjoyment of creating 3D renders.  So far I have decided to buy every Poser upgrade from Poser 5, when I first discovered it, to my present version Poser 2012. I even spent more on buliding a sysytem to run Poser 2012 in a reasonable manner.  Poser 2012 was worth every penny I spent in my book and I have enjoyed playing with weightmapping and SSS.  

I will buy new figures on the same basis, purchasing them only if they will improve my enjoyment of my hobby but no figure, from any company or vendor, has yet pulled me away from V4, although I am very greatful to the Poserplace team for the new V4WM.  

In the new Poser I would like to have some way of creating realistic models based on real life people without having to be a very skilled modeller, something that is probably unlikely but that will not stop me buying the new Poser if it is not included.  I did not know I wanted Sub Surface Scattering until I saw the renders that Bagginsbill uploaded to thread at RNDA.  I placed my pre-order on the basis of this alone although the other improvements have given me so much fun. 

I have no magic advice give SM on where they should go in the future and I suspect  that many of the soothsayers and doom merchants have any more valid suggessions than I do.  I also suspect that a few even have some hidden agenda or completely different motives to their posts. I like what SM has done so far with Poser and will keep spending wherever I can find improvements.  

If I can find nothing to justify spending my hard earned cash I won't spend but that won't stop me having fun with what I have working at the moment.     

Mind you that is my view and quite frankly the one benefit I do have is that, with my advanced years, I can pretty much ignore the doommongers because their view of the future, even if true, is unlikely to effect me that much.

 Happy rendering.

I'm quite happy with Poser Pro 2012.  IDL, weight-mapping (which REALLY helps with animations!), subsurface scattering, better preview and other improvements have made a noticeable difference in the quality of my renders. I've not been buying much content because I already have nearly everything I need.

It's true that slutware sells. Like many here, I'd like to see some really good "real world" clothing, but that's becoming less important because there are some vendors (like 3D Age, for example) who've slipped in a few practical bits of clothing in with their slutware. A few changes in the material room, and a lot of variety is possible. Some of you have posted really good ideas about material room presets.  I don't see why a vendor couldn't make those available.

Soft body dynamics would be really nice, both for males and females. (I'm not sure how that would work, though.)  I know that my butt and thighs yield when I sit down. I know that my hands also deform a bit when I grab something. That kind of realism is subtle, but it would be nice.  It would also help when rendering elderly people, as their skin lacks elasticity.

Am I asking too much?

So far, nobody has mentioned RESUME RENDER, like we have in Vue.  THAT would be really useful!  The same would be terrific for animations, too!

As far as content is concerned, a decent infant would find its way into a lot of my family-oriented renders, especially one that could accept face and ethnicity morphs. Other folk have mentioned animals, and I agree. It makes no sense to have a beautifully rendered human figure sitting next to a cat with carboard fur . . .

The cloth room is ok, but it would sure be nice to have buttons, pockets, piping and other features for dynamic props. (Oh, that's a vendor problem, you say? Aren't we talking about content, too?) I've never made sense of the hair room.  I think it would be nice to convert standard hair props into dynamic hybrids, as can be done with some clothing props.  Hair in Poser seldom hangs properly!

I don't need another ugly 20-something adult.  I don't need another uber-pretty 20-something adult, either. Older folk morphs are available, but mostly for faces.  I've yet to see a 70 year old who has the body of a 20 year old, you know what I mean?

Enough of the doom and gloom, people!  This is a hobby we're supposed to enjoy.

"weight-mapping (which REALLY helps with animations!),"

Can you explain exactly how weight mapping improves animations?

Also anyone have a link to where I can get V4 Weight mapped version?

Cheers

Quote - "weight-mapping (which REALLY helps with animations!),"

Can you explain exactly how weight mapping improves animations?

More commonly referred to as weight painting in other programs like Max, Maya, etc. Weight mapping basically allows joints to bend more naturally, affecting the soft tissues and muscles around the joint or up/across a limb based on positioning or movement. It does what JCMs were meant to do, just better. 

~Shane

Quote - "weight-mapping (which REALLY helps with animations!),"

Can you explain exactly how weight mapping improves animations?

Also anyone have a link to where I can get V4 Weight mapped version?

Cheers

The V4 weight map injection script is available from RDNA:

http://www.runtimedna.com/WMV4.html

Or PoserPlace:

http://poserplace.phantom3d.net/V4.2WM/V4.2WM.html

I can't comment on the animation side... and have only a limited experience using the "untreated" V4 in any context to be honest. But the weight mapped version is much nicer, and more flexible, to pose... or so I've found at least, with what I'm doing with it...

"More commonly referred to as weight painting in other programs like Max, Maya, etc. Weight mapping basically allows joints to bend more naturally, affecting the soft tissues and muscles around the joint or up/across a limb based on positioning or movement. It does what JCMs were meant to do, just better. "

Yes I have over 35 weight mapped rigs for C4D from Dosch
and of course the joints will "look better" in general

But IMHO SM/poser needs to fix it poor excuse for IK to really improve its animations
as well as implement a true nonlinear motion clip system.

Cheers

"It does what JCMs were meant to do, just better"

I'd really like to see the day when that nonsense myth is finally laid to rest.  :-(

All weightmapping can do is give you better granularity, which at best allows you to use smaller JCMs. Which, btw, have zero impact on performance. As opposed to a gazillion of joint magnets or additional bones crammed into a cr2.

A weightmap can move a vertice in exactly two directions: In or out in relation to the joint axis.

A JCM can move a vertice into any direction.

So, sorry, unless you have a completely featureless mesh, JCM's were, are and will be absolutely necessary to create an authentic looking human joint, while weightmapping is definitely not.

I rigged figures that bend more realistically than any recent "weightmapped" Poser figures years ago, just using those "primitive" falloff zones and JCM's.

BTW, the "pro's", use them, too. They just call them blendshapes.

I don't know why and how this "JCMs are evil" nonsense started, but it is the reason we now have "professional weightmapping" in Poser and pretty much nothing else to show for.

I don't really see much difference in IK vs other apps but I haven't done much with them so I can't really say. 

I think improvements/additions to the animation pallet overall would be great, and would likely appeal to a much wider customer base, considering Poser is by default mostly a program for animation, even though most here seem to use it primarily for still renders.

~Shane

actually, Joe, the pros use a combination of both, with a properly laid out mesh which - so far - poser has never seen. 

you also seem to think that the gen3 meshes are "state of the art", yet if you were to take any of those meshes into a professional studio you'd be laughed out the door, as there is nothing professional about them. 

~Shane

Weight map architectures differ. Three axes versus one matters. Bulge maps versus rotation maps matter as well. Poser offers both. What's missing?

Sigh. Why is it so hard to understand that....

#1: Poser is not a PRO application. It's made for and used by hobbyists.

#2: PRO meshes are purpose built. Often a single movie character has several meshes depending on the scene it is used in.

A Poser/STUDIO mesh OTOH needs to be sturdy and safe enough to be handled and modified by both amateur users as well as amateur merchants who often have zero technical knowledge. There is no "high tech", "movie trickery" or "postwork" to improve the final result.

It is expected to cover a huge variety of reasonable realistic human (and sometimes alien) body styles, ages and genders on most often below average computers.

So sorry, but you're constantly comparing apples and oranges.

A Poser mesh of course would be completely unsuitable in a "Pro" pipeline, the same way any "Pro" mesh will be completely useless in the hands of your average Poser/Studio user.

That "You can be just like the Pros for only $499.99" pipe dream is what got us into this mess in the first place.

Quote - you also seem to think that the gen3 meshes are "state of the art", yet if you were to take any of those meshes into a professional studio you'd be laughed out the door, as there is nothing professional about them. 

 

Just to clarify, I don't want this comment to be misconstrued as Joe or anyone else thinking I'm critisizing his work. It's only in reference to the mesh he uses, not his results. Personally I think the majority of the work you've done - that I've seen - in morphing the gen3 meshes is great and demonstrates that you definitely have talent as a character artist, I just don't understand why you think it can't be done with a better, more optimized mesh. 

~Shane  

"Weight map architectures differ. Three axes versus one matters. Bulge maps versus rotation maps matter as well. Poser offers both. What's missing?"

A proper way to create JCMs inside Poser, like Studio has built in for a couple of years.

Not that I'm unhappy with PoseMorphLoader, but it is too important to be not fully integrated into Poser.

Actually it is way, way more important than weightmapping.

Again: I can easily create perfectly realistic looking joints without weightmapping as long as I have reverse deformations functionality to create JCMs.

But I have yet to see a single convincing weightmapped joint that does not use a single JCM.

"I just don't understand why you think it can't be done with a better, more optimized mesh"

Sure, there might be a vertice here and a vertice there that could be changed if one searches long enough.

And I wish the Gen 3 mesh had edgeloops for a real ribcage and other "bonyness" you see on very skinny people, not just built in the musculature edgeloops.

But the 3rd Gen mesh was the last true "amateur" mesh built for Poser.

Both the 4th Gen and especially Genesis were "optimized" for the "Pro" market because DAZ sadly shares that "Just Like The Pros" dream with Smith Micro.

So, when I hear "more professional", I translate it to "less amateur friendly".

Your average "hobbyist painter" could easily make or modify a texture for V2 or V3.

To do the same with V4 or V5 you need 3D painting software most hobbyists don't have.

More professional ? Yes.

Bad for the "amateur community" ? Also, yes.

**"I don't really see much difference in IK vs other apps but I haven't done much with them so I can't really say. **"

Other apps have a channel that allows us animators to animate the influence of IK "feet pinning" (for example) for those situations where we want to begin a motion using IK for the feet but have its influence Fade as he leaves the ground
during a jump for instance.

Poser does not allow you to animate the influence of IK and in fact has a BUG that ruins your animation if you try to use IK in the beginning of one session and later try to turn it off .

But as you stated posers focus is for indoor stills
which is why I am moving onto professional C4D rigs for My Character animation work henceforth.

Cheers

i get what you're saying, for the most part.

but, isn't that why there are multiple versions of poser? 

I really have no sympathy for a merchant who isn't willing to invest in or learn other tools that will improve the quality of the content they're creating. Nor do I have much sympathy for an artist who doesn't want to learn new tools to improve the quality of their art, if that's what it takes. If the only artist's application your machine can handle is windows paint, then find a way to make your windows paint painting awesome, or find another hobby.

Technically, if you have photoshop cs3 or later, then you have 3D painting software. granted, it's not the most user friendly, but it's there. If it's not good enough, invest the $600 bucks in zbrush, or another 3D painting application that does the job more efficiently. And, don't forget Blender also has fully functional 3D painting capabilities, and its free. 

so, are you saying you think it's a BAD idea for SM to try to market to a more professional-minded consumer base, out of some kind of loyalty to the hobbyist market? A hobbyist market who, don't forget, wants more professional quality content in their software to acheive more professional quality renders. 

Why does, or should, poser need to remain a hobbyist's tool? Why can't they accomodate both? Seems to me that's why they have Debut, standard, and pro versions. 

~Shane

Quote -
Why does, or should, poser need to remain a hobbyist's tool? Why can't they accomodate both? 

Three reasons:

1. You cannot jump a chasm in two leaps, and

2. The code team ain't big enough to pull that off.

3. The UI would need a massive overhaul (and the ghost of Kai Krause exorcised) before it would be considered pro-level.

I'll find this emphasis on Pro vs Amateurs exaggerated. If you see the whole history of art the 'amateurs' clearly 'won' over the professionals. Van Gogh just bought a book about how to paint and worked himself through the 1000 pages. Michelangelo was a amateur strictly speaking, when he created his Pietà. This whole competition thing between amateurs and professionals is what drives art forward. To be so impressed by professionals is childish.

Vue was a hobbyist tool in the beginning, now it is used by amateurs and professionals alike.

Quote - Why does, or should, poser need to remain a hobbyist's tool? Why can't they accomodate both? Seems to me that's why they have Debut, standard, and pro versions. 

 

~Shane

I think it's quite possible that it's the amateur contribution to content creation (and the huge number of freebies) that has kept the prices ridiculously low.

Granted, I believe content prices are probably too low (and certainly too low to sustain a career) -- and maybe that keeps all but the most generous of professionals from participating.  But I'd rather have prices I can afford at less than "pro" quality, than "pro" quality that I can never hope to buy.  I know it's selfish...

Aery Soul, Sanctum Art and Xurge were all amateurs.. I don't envy anyone who must compete with those gentlemen today.

Did somebody say autosave? I forgot about that. Or even "save before render".

it's not about being "impressed" with professionals, vintorix. it's about incorporating the necessary tools to accomplish what the end-users desire, and doing so in a way that doesn't require paying royalties to competitors. 

~Shane

In this particular case, "pro" and "hobbyist" only refers to the depth of tools available, not the results.

A fully "professional" toolkit would have so many dials, knobs, menus, and buttons that a newbie would take one look, then run off screaming into the night. A hobbyist-level application usually hides, abstracts, or simply pre-sets most of the nitty-gritty stuff, to make it easier for the newbie to get comfy with the whole idea. 

Now you could have a program that hides the ten zillion esoteric controls that a pro could tweak to better or more powerful effect, but it's damned tough to do.

As for your original assertion? I got a bad analogy for you:

A typical Cessna civil aircraft cockpit has approximately 150 dials, knobs, switches, and controls. An F-16C fighter aircraft has around 650 (I know, because one night long ago, I got bored during an INS drift calibration and counted 'em). On the other hand, some of the best aerobats alive use modified civilian aircraft, often with even fewer controls than the Cessna has. On the other hand, the fighter pilot needs every last one of the controls in that jet to get his particular job done.

Yeah, you're right, that's a really bad analogy.

I'm not saying poser should become a pro-grade aplication. that will likely never happen as it would require a complete redesign.

All I'm saying is that in order for the end-user to achieve more professional looking results, which is what most people seem to be wanting (ie: better bending, more realistic figures), it requires enhancements and additions to the software that, in turn, require the end-user to learn a bit more about 3D than what it currently requires, and/or what they're currently willing to learn. 

~Shane

Penguinisto,

If you have been involved with software construction in the last 10 years, you will know that this problem, how to cater both to beginners and power users, is not new. Let's take MS Word for example. Many have said that the ordinary users don't need all that functionality. and some has even tried to live up to it by publishing simpler word processors, to no avail. All want the real thing. Do you know that the total functionality in word surpass max and maya together? But it is hidden away, until you need it. That is the way to do it.

Vue got their breakthrough in the professional market when they implemented the whole Vue (=everything) as a plug-in to 3ds max, Maya and C4D. That's what Poser aught to do.

The best way to achieve a healthy industry is when amateurs and professionals use the very same tools. In this way the pros are kept on their toes. Protected environments breeds incompetence.

"Vue got their breakthrough in the professional market when they implemented the whole Vue (=everything) as a plug-in to 3ds max, Maya and C4D. That's what Poser aught to do."

Yes but that is only because vue was purpose built to do something that all of the big apps inexplicably did very poorly or not easily (at one time)...Nice atmospheric is skies & vast landscapes.

Well even that thats no longer the case
with the physical Sky & instancing options In renderers like MODO
and Vray,...Vue has become Moot in pro pipelines

(Example see this Modo short)>>> LINK

Now as far as Plugins to send poser/ DAZ assets to C4D,Maya & other pro apps,

Well that has always been done by either curious labs  etc with the propack or independent third party poser enthusiasts.

However you will never see poser/DAZ figures used as a final on screen character asset in a major Hollywood studio film the way vue was used as final shots in POTC by ILM.

The reason is because the technology
for CG humanoid &animal/creature character rigs
in the pro apps ,has been and always will be, far superior to what poser/DAZ figures could provide.

Cheers

"The reason is because the technology for CG humanoid &animal/creature character rigs in the pro apps ,has been and always will be, far superior to what poser/DAZ figures could provide. "

Allow me to register another opinion: the Genesis base technology is superior and above more versatile. I have very little respect for the modern CG film. Its a step back.