As for marketing, some of the best marketing was done by people in this forum and all the multitude of similar forums across the web.  The first thing that was said to newbies, back when the Daz bases were free, was inevitably "Go to Daz, download V3/V4." The first thing.  So we have ourselves to blame for that. ;)

In any case, Renderosity makes money offering whatever sells. If that ended up 100% Genesis, so be it.  But in order to market effectively, a site like Renderosity would have to dedicate itself to doing exactly what Daz did with its new figures: devote as many pages as possible, including a permanent front page presence, to the newcomer. I don't see Renderosity doing this because it's not their business model.

SM might be able to do it, but, oh boy, they'd have to seriously re-tool Content Paradise. It is not a fun place to browse.

Every figure I ever purchased (Daz or otherwise) was due to seeing the content already released for it, or previews of content that was on the way. I wouldn't have bought them without the addons. As far as Daz marketing...I dunno. The way I found Daz to begin with was an artwork on deviantart crediting daz for the figure they were using.

Whoever said something about the vendor/community doing their own advertising you're probably right. Once the figure was close to being ready for release get your beta testers, promo artists, friends, dog, etc. to post art everywhere possible. Especially recruit the more popular artsists whose work is more likely to be noticed.

Connie, as has already been said several times in this thread (sorry for repeating again), for me the new figure would need plenty of content from the start, not months later after the hype has already worn off, and lots and lots of morphs.

Quote - Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaa, that's marketing like no other.

Sending out e-mails to people who are already customers (if they weren't, you wouldn't have their bloody e-mail addresses, duh?) is not "marketing"-- it's just notfying existing customers about "whatever."

Real marketing is aimed at reaching people who aren't already customers and convincing them they "need" your product for one reason or another.

Quote - I have bought nearly ever figure I own, the only exception being Mike 4. I bought him in morphs and textures. A lot of vendors (but not all) do 3D as a full time job. It's not fair to expect that they can even afford to give it away for free.

Cannot be expected, that is true. But on the other hand DAZ did exactly that and gave away their in hard vertex-pushing labour modeled V4 for free, yet they got enough money set aside to develop their own little application and genesis figure. So far for me it looks like that they did everything right.

Quote - I don't mind buying a figure if I really want to have it, and if I can't afford it, I'll wait until I can. I certainly have enough to keep me occupied until then :P. It's just the Daz mentality talking...they have us all spoiled with the free figures and rock bottom prices. Truth is tho, that it's hurt the little guy. They had to devalue their items just to sell them.

Yes, maybe, as a company they have the ability to shift their assets and losses a bit over time; make everything cheap now and then get rich next year. The little guy (who wants to make many dollars NOW) probably does not want or cannot do that. Not that i have anything against it, because it keeps prices low and makes room for more vendors than just a few; perfect for the cheap egoistic customer crowd like me.

Quote - I dunno. I have a certain respect for a vendor. 3D, and especially Poser rigging and the modeling and the texturing is a LOT of work. At most I bet they don't make more than 8 dollars an hour doing it, if that. Unless they sell hundreds. And of those there are only a lucky few who can demand that type of loyalty. Laurie

I have my doubts if selling 3d products can be simply valued with a dollars by hour measure and if the vendorism work the vendors do is the only income they have. I also have respect for the creators of the firefox browser i am using, which is free and has probably much more work in it than any 3d figure i have ever seen. If it is not money they probably get something else out of it (otherwise they would not do it). Of course this is unfair against Microsoft, who could otherwise sell their Internet Explorer for money, but i do not care.

Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a figure of the quality of M4 or V4?  It takes about two or three (or more) YEARS of effort by a whole development team.  It's not something that Little Mr. Intermediate-Level Modeler can bang out in two or three months.

I watch Blender vids and zbrush and these guys create a perfect topology figure in hours with rigging. I'm sure with all the tutorials and vids available these days the developement process is a lot shorter and can be done by an individual.

Wait...sell Poser content other than to make money? What other reason is there? If they aren't doing it for money it would be free, wouldn't it? In our quest to own every Poser item we desire we forget that a very hard working individual or individuals is behind it doing all the dirty work we can't/don't wanna do. How many freebies does an oil painter get? Or someone who does model trains for a hobby? We're losing focus that for MOST of us this a a big, fat hobby and nothing else. Just like any other hobby. And most other hobbies are way more expensive. I just don't know what to say anymore.

And if any vendor (which IS a business) isn't pricing their items by averaging the time spent by the amount of items they're likely to sell is the sad state of affairs content vendors are in. I get that Daz is a business that what businesses do is to undercut the other guy, but someone just starting out can't afford to give stuff away for free. Daz didn't either - those of us who have been around since Daz's beginning know what I mean ;). The shit was expensive. And we all paid it.

Laurie

Oh, "marketing," my ass.  DAZ never did any real "marketing" in its life.  What it did do was come out with figures that were superior to any others available to Poser users, and since they were superior, they became "the" figures-- and DAZ just proceeded to capitalize on that and continue improving its figures.

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Apollo?  Please-- that thing is what, seven or eight years old at least?  I bought it in the very early days, when it was at RDNA-- $50, down the tubes-- just to see what was so "revolutionary" about it.  Well, surprise, surprise--- nothing was.  Yeah, some of the joints were rigged a little better than M3's (no big feat), and it had an extra section in the torso, and the toes were fully poseable (which is mostly "overkill")-- but that hardly added up to REVOLUTIONARY!!!  And there were things about it that were totally lame, like the half-modeled teeth and the horrible topology on the back.  For a one-man effort, it was pretty good... but it wasn't "revoluntionary," and it certainly can't hold a candle to M4.  Or to-- dare I say the G-word?-- Genesis.

** **

It really all comes down to one question:  Is the figure superior to M4/V4?  If not, then forget it.  It's not going to catch on, it's not going to become popular enough to attract the support of "serious" vendors, and it's just going to languish in the same little backwater limbo into which so many other figures have sunk.

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Yes, THIS !  ^

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Yeah, it's a nice little myth:

"I swears, it was just the evil DAZ marketing machine that crushed the tender blossom of the Poser figures in their youth. We never had a chance. Oh the horror, our struggle for freedom again thwarted by DAZ' innate wickedness."

Problem is, it ain't true.

The Poser figures sucked, do suck, and will continue to suck.

Both aesthetically and technically.

And even those that didn't suck completely, still sucked more than any DAZ mesh ever sucked before in the recorded history of the Poserverse.

As for those hoping for a return of the God of Pudgyness, AKA Asspollo, puhleeze:

He couldn't even compete against M3, who surely wasn't one of DAZ masterpieces.

Asspollo's anal cavity might be purely virtual, but it's still a bad idea holding your nose too close to it. It might cloud your vision and give you funny thoughts.  :-)

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I'm not so sure that exact scenario isn't already in the works.  

I'm just not sure that SM has the foresight to take on the onus of supporting that figure themselves until the vendor community feels 'safe' sinking the time into offering further support

Quote - You know, if SM would make a figure with a great human modeler (and we have a lot in the community) and then hand it over to Gabe for morphing and Mike for weightmapping/rigging, one day Poser users might just say "Daz who?" SM should put em on the payroll if they're smart ;).

Laurie

Quote - I'm not so sure that exact scenario isn't already in the works.  

I'm just not sure that SM has the foresight to take on the onus of supporting that figure themselves until the vendor community feels 'safe' sinking the time into offering further support

Quote - You know, if SM would make a figure with a great human modeler (and we have a lot in the community) and then hand it over to Gabe for morphing and Mike for weightmapping/rigging, one day Poser users might just say "Daz who?" SM should put em on the payroll if they're smart ;).

Laurie

Let's hope....lol.

Yeah I have my doubts about this approximation as well.. though I guess you'd have to ask someone who is actually modelling something like that.

Quote -

Do you have any idea how long it takes to develop a figure of the quality of M4 or V4?  It takes about two or three (or more) YEARS of effort by a whole development team.  It's not something that Little Mr. Intermediate-Level Modeler can bang out in two or three months.

I watch Blender vids and zbrush and these guys create a perfect topology figure in hours with rigging. I'm sure with all the tutorials and vids available these days the developement process is a lot shorter and can be done by an individual.

Quote - > Quote - It really all comes down to one question:  Is the figure superior to M4/V4?  If not, then forget it.  It's not going to catch on, it's not going to become popular enough to attract the support of "serious" vendors, and it's just going to languish in the same little backwater limbo into which so many other figures have sunk.

Yanno we ARE talking about POSER users here ;). And it may catch on to Poser users. I don't think any one expects that it would catch on with DS users. And that wasn't even the original question. With the right person modeling and getting the word out and vendors on board that make GOOD stuff, not the crap I've seen come out for other recent figures it has a chance. With POSER. Can't use what are now dead figures forever. And I don't mean Apollo ffs. Much as I loved his things, Anton is too big of liability for any 3D venture. I'm pissed SM is resurrecting an old G2 figure. NEW..that's what ppl want NEW and better than the last iteration. And if Daz doesn't give it to them, they WILL get it somewhere else. Whoever thought a rinky dink operation like Daz would become the standard for Poser figures? I didn't at the time that's for sure.

Laurie

Yes, I know we are talking about POSER.  I started with POSER.  Until very recently, all my products were made for POSER.  Starting in around December of 2005, most of them also had DAZ Studio versions, but they were created and intended to work in POSER, and the DS versions were "secondary."

And M4 and V4 are POSER figures, in that they have POSER-based rigging and are designed to work in POSER.  For several years now, they have been "the" most popular figures among POSER users-- so it's entirely appropriate to say that any figure that aspires to become a "mainstream" POSER figure must be superior to them-- because unless and until such a figure is created, they are going be pretty much "the only game in town."

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Bwahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahhaa, that's marketing like no other.

Sending out e-mails to people who are already customers (if they weren't, you wouldn't have their bloody e-mail addresses, duh?) is not "marketing"-- it's just notfying existing customers about "whatever."

Real marketing is aimed at reaching people who aren't already customers and convincing them they "need" your product for one reason or another.

OMG, Blondie.  DAZ is marketing.  It is ALL they do.  They create and/or make next to NOTHING and those things they do create have a very bad reputation for documentation and quality.

Anyone who worked on the V4WM project know exactly what kind of "quality" went into V4.

They SELL you.  Their vendors' products.  It IS what they do.

Sorry, but "preaching to the choir" is NOT "marketing."  It's just preaching to the choir-- to those who already "converts."  It doesn't matter if you send out one newsletter a week or a hundred a week, you're still just preaching to the choir.  REAL marketing is aimed at making NEW converts-- at reaching people who have NEVER heard of you or your product before, and convincing them that they "need" it. 

blondie999: Actually, "marketing" is advertising for the purpose of sales. It is entirely irrelevant whether it is directed at someone who has bought from you before. Wal-Mart does marketing for people who have previously shopped in their stores just as much for people who have not. General Motors does marketing for people who have previously purchased GM vehicles just as much as for people who have not. Etc.

While every company wants to expand its base, marketing to the base is still marketing, and it is NOT a minor issue. Many companies sell an average of one item per customer, while others sell new items regularly to the same old customers. And that difference is not simply about quality and support (although that of course helps). It is marketing.

It may be that there will not be a wildly successful figure comparable to V4 again. But for the sake of the question posed in this thread, I think for a non-DAZ figure to accomplish it, it would require several things, a number of which have already been mentioned.

1. Production and support by a company that is in a position to make a sustained push.

2. Realism. Now, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do not mistake "realism" here for "average." (See next point.) While the realism purist crowd will render average and even ugly figures, the mainstream user wants realism in the sense that stunning celebrities are real (which means: sort of, if you factor in makeup, photo retouching blah blah blah).

3. Default stunning looks. If you want to co-opt the top figures, default face must be the most beautiful default face available. (Similarly, default body shape must be attractive.) Period.

4. Visual adaptability. The default beauty must still be just neutral enough that you can easily morph the mesh into other beautiful shapes. (And if that's possible, the rest of us will still be able to morph into less beautiful shapes.)

5. Content support at release. Nothing much to add here; almost everyone has pointed to this issue.

6. Low ownership cost. I don't think the figure has to be free to be successful, but if you want something on a massive scale, IMO you cannot charge $30-40 like Terai Yuki or Mariko. No matter how you argue that a figure is "worth it," if you're planning on mass hysteria, you'll much prefer 100,000 people buying a figure at $10 to 500 people paying $40. Not only is the math better on the figure sales itself, it also builds in a lucrative market. 500 people are only going to buy so much content.

JoePublic can talk until he is blue in the face. But JoePublic's figure wouldn't sell 50 copies (were it his to sell), is my guess. That's not the sort of realism that is important to the mainstream.

Nor is impressive technology for the sake of impressive technology gonna do it, either. Some of what Genesis does is impressive; some looks impressive at first glance only; and some is just beside the point. (For instance, beyond the novelty, being able to morph a male into a female and back again may be "neat," but in truth it isn't a capability that really offers much practically for most people and is in fact pretty limiting.)

Now, of course, a mainstream figure should use as much of the actually good new tech as possible (and use it easily, with no fuss), but a backward compatible version would still be necessary. To be fully mainstream, you have to catch the people who are not early adopters and are usually a version or two behind. That's just the way it is.

Probably equally important: These two versions would need interchangeable wardrobes etc. Impossible? Well, by interchangeable, the interchangeability would be so far as the user goes. In actuality, just as there is such thing as browser sniffing in the web dev world which decides what version of a web page is to be served, so too here, there would be a script running in the background detecting whether a given piece of clothing was going on the "modern" (weight mapped etc) version of the figure or the "legacy" version. Etc.

"JoePublic can talk until he is blue in the face. But JoePublic's figure wouldn't sell 50 copies (were it his to sell), is my guess. That's not the sort of realism that is important to the mainstream."

Hmm, how come then that 100% photorealism still is still the holy grail of professional CGI ?

Are Poser/Studio users so shallow that they only want T and A ?

Besides, you completely overlook the point that the kind of figure I'm rooting for could go from my 100% down and dirty realistic HANA to Supermodel Vicky with the flick of a single dial.

That's the freedom I want Poser users to have.

To do what THEY want, not what anyone else thinks they should want.

If we had Genesis in Poser, I could just add my HANA to the gene-pool.

Then you could use her or not, or just mix her with any other of the gazillion shapes Genesis can use.

You can make her younger or older, you can turn her into a zombie or an org or an alien.

JUST WITH A SINGLE DIAL.

Quote - Are Poser/Studio users so shallow that they only want T and A ?

 

I deleted my previous post because I realized I was being drawn into the Daz/Poser debate...

In answer to the question, I would say, for the purposes of financing, if you want to know where the bulk of the sales are coming from: YES.

Of course, T & A also includes ridiculously pretty faeries that look like preteens and are postworked with an excessive amount of diffuse glow, but ultimately: YES.

If it weren't the case, male figures, monsters, children might sell.  But we know that they only get a fraction of the market. Why is that? Because they don't have tits.

Whether we want to boil it down to T&A (which is slightly simplistic), the basic fact remains: the overwhelming majority of Poser users are doing either glamour or fantasy renders, or a combination of both. By the nature of the case, "mainstream" is going to be what appeals to the largest number of that overwhelming majority.

I would say the biggest factor in determining the popularity of a figure is "1-click solutions".  

1. You need a buttload of conforming clothing (and not just slutwear) simply because dynamic is not a 1-click solution.   

2. Tons of pre-made poses (99% of the galleries are just that - who will take the time to actually pose their figure?)

3. Many different characters (dialed morphs and textures), even if they're a rehash of the same old with just different lipstick colours (take a look at what's hot and you see they sell like hotcakes)

4. I'd say a team would need to put all this together and only when EVERYTHING is ready realease the figure.   Otherwise waiting for content will just render the figure useless.

Anastasia is a good example of this.   Many content makers including the OP showed excitement and intentions of producing content and none of this was seen through.   Was she so difficult to model clothes for?   Just a couple of pose packs released?  Even BH didn't come through with all the stuff he showed was already modelled for her (I believe a tank top and shorts and the outfit previewed on DM's pose package along with a great pair of pumps)  At this point even if one awesome outfit comes out I'd have to think about getting it as I can't foresee that I'll be using her with just one outfit. 

I think it's best not to preview anything until a lot of support items are already prepared for the figure.   It's better to overwhelm customers with a plethora of add-ons than to have them wait for six months before they see yet another preview of an outfit that has still to materialize in the marketplace.

"By the nature of the case, "mainstream" is going to be what appeals to the largest number of that overwhelming majority."

Still it doesn't mean you have willfully dumb it down to the lowest common denominator.

"Photorealistic" doesn't mean ugly.

"Photorealistic" means that the mesh was sculpted after a real world person and that the artist was good enough so that he could exactly capture each detail.

Doesn't matter if that person was a fugly old hag or a supermodel.

That "people prefer pretty" is no excuse for creating an over-simplified, over-stylized puberty fantasy that would look right at home in one of the gazillion ego-shooter games.

If I wanted that crap in my renders, I could just use an avatar app in my browser.

I want actual human proportions AS THE DEFAULT, not toons, not manga, nor anyone's elses "artistic vision".

Pretty, yes please, but PHOTOREALISTIC pretty.

DAZ has understood this, that's why V5 and M5 are the most realistic DAZ meshes so far.

Quote - As a vendor that creates a lot of characters here is my take on what it would take to make a new salable base character.

1. She has to look like a girl with a sweet, cute youthful girly face.

Not a tough masculine face. European not Asian, (but morphable into Asian and other ethnic looks) Sweet and hot like a cheerleader sells.

No matter how great her body is her face sells her first. Look at all the ads in the marketplace of the top selling products .Even the vendors buy those sweet girls to market their products with. Why? Because that type of face sells products.

1. She absolutely MUST morph into  both a voluptuous girl, busty, small waist, dreamy hips or slim and youthful. No boobs no sales for the base character.I know. I've tried marketing most of the "other characters".

2. She would need a weight mapped and a non weight mapped version. There are far more customers running older version of Poser that do not take weight mapping than there are that use it.

Strictly speaking from a vendor's standpoint. The absolute best thing that could happen for the marketplace would be an upgrade of Poser to support Genesis.

The market is so fractured from this rift it has cost all of us dearly.

It would be nice if everyone could play nice again.

These are my opinions as a vendor that would really like to see the market get stronger which would benefit everyone.

cheerio

lululee

 

Scew the grey blob. It is a solution in search of a problem.  

SM has made it quite clear that getting the grey blob into Poser is DAZ's problem.  Seeing DAZ in it's current state would YOU trust them not to screw something up?

Lululee - when I use your characters, the first thing I do is dial down the boobs and delete the tramp look.  I also have all of the young Euro-trash that I'll ever need.  What you call selling points are why I don't buy your figures anymore.      

Reciecup makes my black male & female figures.  All of the other vendors give me a Caucasian body features with black skin.

I need Asians - there is a very real difference between a Malaysian and a Korean and a Chinese figure  both Body and especially facial features.

I need Slavs, I need Indians, both types, I am tired of white folks - which is over 90% of the characters made.

As a customer, all I really need is a Wardrobe Wizard plug-in and some decent textures for the body.  I have already converted my entire V4 wardrobe so that any character can use it.

 Almost 50% of my renders are non-daz figures.  Statistically speaking only about 5 percent of the female population is V4 height and my storyboards reflect that

*ahem...we're still drifting ;)

My figures don't have to have huge casabas or have an overly lovely face. But it would be nice to choose between small and "OMG" or between pretty and ugly, fat and thin, old and young. People are ultimately gonna want what all the Daz figures have - plenty of morphs. And with that, I'm gonna drag this old carcass to bed ;).

Laurie

Quote - ... And with that, I'm gonna drag this old carcass to bed ;). Laurie

Does your hubby know you talk about him like that?

:-D

I know we love to compare and contrast what's already out there, and analyze what already happened, however...

For something to really knock the socks off of everyone, including Vicky and Genesis needs to be something head and shoulders above them, and not a recreation with a slightly different body shape.... or recreating Genesis for Poser...

I think the next figure needs to be thought out, waaaaay outside of the box....
And yes, it certainly needs to have SM and content and brokerages behnd it.

It won't happen on the grassroots effort, and through forums. Very very small percentage of poserdom is on forums. When you have your content in brokerages that let you see who is buying, you quickly see that good 90% of the names you've never seen in the forums... .Forum based grassrot efforts reach a very teensy audience in an already rather small market. 

Quote - THERE SIMPLY CAN NOT BE A POSER MAINSTREAM FIGURE WITHOUT COMPARISON TO DAZ. 

Sure it can, however for that to happen once needs to change their vantage point from following to leading.

Regarding ******* vs. the world. We definitely won’t profit from one more slanging match. At the same time, it would be foolish to discuss creating a new electric car without discussing Tesla and Volt.  Can we not defenestrate the malefactors without padlocking the building - preparing my parachute?

Personally, I think the *** Generation 3 figures were in some ways, the high water mark – scoff if you will. They were reasonably sized for a modest system, morphed fairly well, mostly shared skins and to some degree morphs. They didn’t have the technical complexity of the Gen 4 figures and offered a nice range of looks from Aiko to the Girl to Stephanie, Maddie, Matt etc. I would use them as a benchmark. Add weight mapping and SSS or whatever BUT also make ‘conventional’ versions that could be used in DS and older versions of Poser, easily be imported into Vue etc. I may be a Luddite but I doubt I’m the only one who still likes the idea of discrete figures.

I’m not saying that ******* isn’t the wave of the future – it may or may not be – only that there are likely enough Non **4/Non-P9/2012 users out there to make a substantial market at least for now.  I’m not against the idea that this figure should be a techno tour de force, a dazzling (NPI) new creature, but you have to walk before you can run and you have to work the kinks out of a new venture. Establish a brand first. Maybe I’m insane but I think there is a nice market out there amongst those who want their fix post V4 and are for whatever reasons not committed to getting on either the ******* or Poser WM trains. Establish trust with them and work on the Uberwench wanna be.

As an interesting exercise, what are two or three most successful 3rd party figures? Why did they succeed and where did they fall short? I always cite Maya Doll. She wasn’t especially pretty in her default state. She was created by a single fairly unknown Japanese artist. In her day, she manages to generate a lot of free support and even some commercial stuff as well. Was it because she was an Asian figure – pound for pound, she probably out did Miki. Was it because there wasn’t that much competition at the time? We all know that RDNA put a lot of effort into Dina V and that whatever her other shortcomings, her face and physique were major stumbling blocks. What about Natalia? Perhaps Antonia is still to recent for objective evaluation but where and why has she succeed or failed? We can’t get beyond personal opinion and less than informed speculation here but I think before jumping off into the wild blue, it might be helpful to look to the past.

I think that we all know the basic objectives necessary to achieve the goal. Some may disagree but I think that pretty female with a lot of clothes. OK, flakey computer enforces brevity (cheers from the Church). You need X vendors guaranteed Y dollars to create Z amount of content. Insert numbers of your choice. Calculate the total and find someone to pony it up along with sustained advertising on the major Poser oriented sites, solid plans for related figures and provide her free to the best free content makers. If you can sell it at DAZ, go for it. That’s the beginning – no guarantees but you have a fighting chance. No go it alone, no build it and they will come, no only for the most advanced users or only Poser users, just a good, solid, attractive figure with a central professional entity behind her. With that, even the modern day equivalent of Posette would stand a better chance than all of the ‘superior’ figures that have essentially failed.

I think we all have to take a step back.

Question?

Are we, the 20 or so posters here??
Are we representative of the whole Poser user base???

NO, we are NOT.
We are "the forum gang."

So, who are we to discuss this issue.

We have no clue what the "real end users want."

They have a job, they have children, and they have some "spare" time, late in the evevning, to do something.

"They", want to make something, and have fun in their hobby/spare/time.

If we do not push Poser and its figures into a more user friendly hobby, we might loose a lot of them.

"New", technology can only be implemented to make Poser more user friendly.

And YES, if that means stepping down, we will have to take a long hard look at that.

Or we will all be loosers in the end.

Do we build for the few???
Or do we want to share our hobby and our pleasure and passion with everybody?

Why would DAZ allow a competitive figure to be sold in their store? Do they allow that? Seems rather counter-productive. 

~Shane

"Why would DAZ allow a competitive figure to be sold in their store? Do they allow that? Seems rather counter-productive."

They 3dU's Sadie figure, and probably some of the others. Those would not compete though except on the margins. The market now is somewhat different though. Conceivably, they might see an advantage, especially if the figure worked in DS as well as Poser. They could get some revenue and keep the Poser-centric customers shopping there - not to mention perhaps quelling a bit of the hostility.  Assumption - that they still see themselves to a large degree as content sellers. I wouldn't necessarily expect them to heavily promote the figure, but just having the 'shelf space' would be valuable.

The local grocer sells their store brands but they also sell other brands as well. The primary task is to get people in the door and then you have an opportunity to sell them other stuff. Whether they'd see it that way, IDK, but I'd certainly approach them. Maybe even let them make a ******* version of the figure. If folks would stop seeing this as a zero sum game, everybody could wet their beak.

I would underline Kalypso´s points and want to add this :

A good figure is a figure that i can support with conform clothes..without fighting

for days with doing adjustment / jcms and so on in time of Genesis.

For me thats one of the main point at the moment.

And when i take a look to my runtime its still easier to do conform clothes for 3rd party figures or Genesis than for some of the " Comes with Poser " figures.

And the WM thing or Morph Brush doesnt make that easier in my eyes.

I think a cloth designer should spend most of his time for the modelling and texturing...not on fixing pokethroughs.

Maybe thats because i mostly do this just for fun and that means a bit puzzling with meshes is okay..but more is stress i dont want.

My really personal 2 cent :)

A little something to think about.

DAZ as a company dissapears overnight, all the Gen charcters also dissapear from your runtimes. By that I mean ANY version of VictoriaAikoMike and Kids etc. Plus the Genesis one goes as well.

What charcter do you then support?

Everyone seems to be getting bogged down by existing mainstream characters with their replies.

Just imagine there is nothing out there at all, what would you want from a character that would make you sit up and go, yes, that's the main one for me!!!

All the best.

LROG

As long as any given 3d marketplace proprietor remains focused on selling content and are not giving much if any focus to developing and maintaining software, then it would seem foolish of them to preclude anything that narrows their market user base?

By the same token, it seems perhaps naive of vendors to think that regurgitating infinite variations on a theme of the same sort of V4 stuff can last forever?

Anyway just really chipping in to agree that what's needed around any new figures, if they're to take off... is quite simply, I reckon, hype hype and more hype... then some hardcore marketing... then some more hype... etc.

If the figure's user friendly from the point of view of folk making content for it then that's going to help I guess...

...but I suspect that a good proportion of content makers will still fall over themselves to jump on supporting a new figure, even if it has inherent problems... e.g. with compatability or whatever... if there's enough hype, hype, marketing and hype, built up around it?

Cheers ;-)

Quote - The result:

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations !

What could be more desireable than that ?

 

You are having too much fun, JP!  :lol:

A question; suppose you wanted to commercialize a figure along these lines.  Obviously you can't use V3's mesh, so would you do a mesh from scratch, use one of the Poser Pro redistributable ones, or is there an open-source mesh that would be suitable?

Quote - Anyway just really chipping in to agree that what's needed around any new figures, if they're to take off... is quite simply, I reckon, hype hype and more hype... then some hardcore marketing... then some more hype... etc. ... if there's enough hype, hype, marketing and hype, built up around it?

And, THERE you have it.

1.  A figure with content

2.  hype hype and more hype... then some hardcore marketing

Small correction Gary

1. A user friendly figure with content at release.

Quote - Small correction Gary

1. A user friendly figure with content at release.

I disagree.  You can make the figure as user unfriendly as you want as long as you provide instructions for it's use.  Don't believe me?  See the grey blob.

Heck, it's so unfriendly, new software had to be written to use it!

"Heck, it's so unfriendly, new software had to be written to use it!"

That raises the question of backwards compatibility.

IMHO  part of the reason Daz made DS4 pro a free app is because of the professed DS3 "holdouts" many of whom did not want to spend money and learn a different interface to use  "G"
The FREE DS4 PRO removed that barrier to "G"

 There is not FREE version of the latest poser. Assuming someone created this theoretical "Mainstream" poser figure with weightmapping etc that would mean many of the P7,P8 PPRO 2010  userswould be shut out until they bit the bullet and $$upgraded$$.

Cheers

I dont know.. Part of me says a new figure, but part of me says a little re-design of Poser as well. You want a new mainstream figure? The app has to change. It has to be designed around that figure to get maximum functionality, but at the same time cater for everything else. Something like a built in morphing clothes app with a one click auto convert and fit feature. Things need to be made a little easier. There are too many steps and use of multiple external apps and scripts to get results. More intergration is needed. The figure also needs to benefit from all this. There has to be a good working relationship between the two.

Quote - "Heck, it's so unfriendly, new software had to be written to use it!"

That raises the question of backwards compatibility.

IMHO  part of the reason Daz made DS4 pro a free app is because of the professed DS3 "holdouts" many of whom did not want to spend money and learn a different interface to use  "G"
The FREE DS4 PRO removed that barrier to "G"

 There is not FREE version of the latest poser. Assuming someone created this theoretical "Mainstream" poser figure with weightmapping etc that would mean many of the P7,P8 PPRO 2010  userswould be shut out until they bit the bullet and $$upgraded$$.

Cheers

Very valid point. Only a handful of users use the new poser. So unless P9 or Pro is in the hands of every Poser user This new figure already has a difficult start. Dont even think about making multiple versions of it to cater for P9 and non P9 users. Thats when things get complicated.

I agree on the figure - app integration/updating part.

Change the figure AND the app to make the newest of the newest technology work.

But then you fall into your own trap.

"EVERYBODY" that wants to use the new figure/app/technology then ** HAS** to buy the newest Poser version???

That is what DAZ tried, and failed, and had to give the app for free in the end.

3D is only a small part of the bigger SM company.
And any company has to make a profit.

For DAZ the profit is in the content, for SM the profit is in the Poser app.

if they have to give Poser for free, they might as well close the 3D department.

The SM 3D business plan is based around the application.

Poser Debut is entirely affordable at the base end of the market?

There's possibly scope for SM to update aspects of that, if this was something that was strategically desireable to them, from a marketing perspective, to get people into using a new batch of SM sponsored content... I would guess.

It wouldn't surprise me too much if that happened at some point not too far off, after any new figures that rely on weight mapping coming out from SM.

Technically, I'm guessing that a new version of Debut would probably be a feature-constrained version of Poser 9;

e.g. with the ability to load and pose content, but no manipulation tools, etc.

So, anyone serious about their 3d art will likely still want to save up and graduate to Poser 9 or Pro 2012...

...then save up even more and get Zbrush, so they can use the forthcoming new GoZ feature in Poser Pro

Quote - There is a limit to backward compatibility.  Backward compatibility has held the Poser community back long enough.  I am tired of being limited to Poser 4. People who are too cheap to upgrade are too cheap to buy content and as such, they are irrelevent.

On the backward compatability discussion, I'll add that disabling your software with this results in everything being done - poorly. 

All this magical backward compatibility does is create expectations that are never met, leading to bad will with your customers.

Quote - 3. Get it through the vendor's head that they HAVE TO DO MARKET REASEARCH!  This isn't field of dreams.  Just because they build it, doesn't mean people will buy it.

Definitely... a I'd also suggest that listening to forums like this is almost certainly not qualifying as scientific market research...

...so I dunno how you'd do it. Probably a survey of the broader user base with a reply incentive I guess... e.g. a random selection of respondents getting some sort of reward... that sort of thing?

Maybe Rendo would sponsor that sort of enterprise (or already do??) or else club together with a bunch of other vendors and do it...

;-)

Quote - > Quote - ... And with that, I'm gonna drag this old carcass to bed ;). Laurie

Does your hubby know you talk about him like that?

:-D

LOL..Yep

Quote - This question may be self explanatory...

What would Non-DAZ figure need to become poserdom mainstream?

Come with Poser?
Be heavily promotoed by SM?

What else comes to mind?

(other then genitals... :P)

Try this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Potato_Head

Quote - A little something to think about.

DAZ as a company dissapears overnight, all the Gen charcters also dissapear from your runtimes. By that I mean ANY version of VictoriaAikoMike and Kids etc. Plus the Genesis one goes as well.

What charcter do you then support?

Everyone seems to be getting bogged down by existing mainstream characters with their replies.

Just imagine there is nothing out there at all, what would you want from a character that would make you sit up and go, yes, that's the main one for me!!!

All the best.

LROG

That's probably one of the most intelligent, non-antagonistic posts I've ever seen you make Richard. And I agree with you :).

Laurie

Quote - I would say the biggest factor in determining the popularity of a figure is "1-click solutions".  

1. You need a buttload of conforming clothing (and not just slutwear) simply because dynamic is not a 1-click solution.   

2. Tons of pre-made poses (99% of the galleries are just that - who will take the time to actually pose their figure?)

3. Many different characters (dialed morphs and textures), even if they're a rehash of the same old with just different lipstick colours (take a look at what's hot and you see they sell like hotcakes)

4. I'd say a team would need to put all this together and only when EVERYTHING is ready realease the figure.   Otherwise waiting for content will just render the figure useless.

Anastasia is a good example of this.   Many content makers including the OP showed excitement and intentions of producing content and none of this was seen through.   Was she so difficult to model clothes for?   Just a couple of pose packs released?  Even BH didn't come through with all the stuff he showed was already modelled for her (I believe a tank top and shorts and the outfit previewed on DM's pose package along with a great pair of pumps)  At this point even if one awesome outfit comes out I'd have to think about getting it as I can't foresee that I'll be using her with just one outfit. 

I think it's best not to preview anything until a lot of support items are already prepared for the figure.   It's better to overwhelm customers with a plethora of add-ons than to have them wait for six months before they see yet another preview of an outfit that has still to materialize in the marketplace.

there is a ton of Anastasia clothing on the market, and more on the way. ive seen at least half a dozen notable outfits different vendors are in the finishing stages of.there is a LOT of content coming within the next few weeks. 

vicky represents over a decade of content creation not just by a team at daz but by thousands of merchants and freestuff providers who have been using it as their go-to figure for so long.  now you see what happens when as a customer and merchant you put all your eggs in one basket: you get a power-play for market share and BS profiteering tactics like Genesis and the V4 price hike. the entire thing is a slap in the face to Poser users and content providers who have been building up the vicky franchise for over a decade.

if you want freedom and choices youre going to have to manage your expectations (ie: and not expect 50 supporting items upon release), give new figures a chance, be willing to embrace mainstream technologies like dynamic hair and cloth, and cut the umbelical cord to your bloated legacy V4 compatible runtime -- the same runtime that has been holding back poser development and progress for years.

Quote - > Quote - I would say the biggest factor in determining the popularity of a figure is "1-click solutions".  

1. You need a buttload of conforming clothing (and not just slutwear) simply because dynamic is not a 1-click solution.   

2. Tons of pre-made poses (99% of the galleries are just that - who will take the time to actually pose their figure?)

3. Many different characters (dialed morphs and textures), even if they're a rehash of the same old with just different lipstick colours (take a look at what's hot and you see they sell like hotcakes)

4. I'd say a team would need to put all this together and only when EVERYTHING is ready realease the figure.   Otherwise waiting for content will just render the figure useless.

Anastasia is a good example of this.   Many content makers including the OP showed excitement and intentions of producing content and none of this was seen through.   Was she so difficult to model clothes for?   Just a couple of pose packs released?  Even BH didn't come through with all the stuff he showed was already modelled for her (I believe a tank top and shorts and the outfit previewed on DM's pose package along with a great pair of pumps)  At this point even if one awesome outfit comes out I'd have to think about getting it as I can't foresee that I'll be using her with just one outfit. 

I think it's best not to preview anything until a lot of support items are already prepared for the figure.   It's better to overwhelm customers with a plethora of add-ons than to have them wait for six months before they see yet another preview of an outfit that has still to materialize in the marketplace.

there is a ton of Anastasia clothing on the market, and more on the way. ive seen at least half a dozen notable outfits different vendors are in the finishing stages of.there is a LOT of content coming within the next few weeks. 

vicky represents over a decade of content creation not just by a team at daz but by thousands of merchants and freestuff providers who have been using it as their go-to figure for so long.  now you see what happens when as a customer and merchant you put all your eggs in one basket: you get a power-play for market share and BS profiteering tactics like Genesis and the V4 price hike. the entire thing is a slap in the face to Poser users and content providers who have been building up the vicky franchise for over a decade.

if you want freedom and choices youre going to have to manage your expectations (ie: and not expect 50 supporting items upon release), give new figures a chance, be willing to embrace mainstream technologies like dynamic hair and cloth, and cut the umbelical cord to your bloated legacy V4 compatible runtime -- the same runtime that has been holding back poser development and progress for years.

I saw what looks very promising in an email from Poserworld today.......a catsuit for Anastasia and Shay.

Beginners are only beginners for so long.  Once they move beyond Load, pose, render they are going to want more.

As a customer, I want products that push the capabilities of the program.  Until P2012, my holy grail was 64-bit memory addressing, so I could get more than a couple of characters in a scene.

Clothing vendors have been between a rock and a hard place for a while.  Since I got Wardrobe Wizard, I don't buy as much clothing, but what I buy must be well-made.  For a new character, A basic wardrobe MUST be rolled out at character launch.  Wait too long and I'll get WW or Xdresser going & I won't need to buy mesh specific clothing.

The characters I buy now have to take advantage of what P9/2012 can do, otherwise I won't bother buying.  I need texture sets that aren't stuck in the past.  Legacy products can be upgraded with all of the add-ons that are available, but they can be daunting to the new Poser artist, so good tutorials are a must.  

Speaking of that - the folks that make the tutorials need to do a better job of explaining basics.  I would do a lot more with Bbaggins shaders if I had more of a photography background.  Like a lot of Poser users I don't have an art background, so I am constantly tripping up over basics.  I have no clue of what an f-stop does, as an example, so while I can spin a dial, don't always know WHY I am spinning it.

I want more non-DAZ characters.  I am tired of V4/M4 - they are too easy to pick out.  But I don't want a golem - it encourages laziness with the vendors in my opinion.  As an example, there is a nice casual set of clothing for Genesis over on DAZ - and the buttons on the clothing are ON THE SAME SIDE for both male and female characters.  Half calf length pants look fine on a woman - a man, not so much.

Quote - > Quote - I would say the biggest factor in determining the popularity of a figure is "1-click solutions".  

1. You need a buttload of conforming clothing (and not just slutwear) simply because dynamic is not a 1-click solution.   

2. Tons of pre-made poses (99% of the galleries are just that - who will take the time to actually pose their figure?)

3. Many different characters (dialed morphs and textures), even if they're a rehash of the same old with just different lipstick colours (take a look at what's hot and you see they sell like hotcakes)

4. I'd say a team would need to put all this together and only when EVERYTHING is ready realease the figure.   Otherwise waiting for content will just render the figure useless.

Anastasia is a good example of this.   Many content makers including the OP showed excitement and intentions of producing content and none of this was seen through.   Was she so difficult to model clothes for?   Just a couple of pose packs released?  Even BH didn't come through with all the stuff he showed was already modelled for her (I believe a tank top and shorts and the outfit previewed on DM's pose package along with a great pair of pumps)  At this point even if one awesome outfit comes out I'd have to think about getting it as I can't foresee that I'll be using her with just one outfit. 

I think it's best not to preview anything until a lot of support items are already prepared for the figure.   It's better to overwhelm customers with a plethora of add-ons than to have them wait for six months before they see yet another preview of an outfit that has still to materialize in the marketplace.

there is a ton of Anastasia clothing on the market, and more on the way. ive seen at least half a dozen notable outfits different vendors are in the finishing stages of.there is a LOT of content coming within the next few weeks. 

vicky represents over a decade of content creation not just by a team at daz but by thousands of merchants and freestuff providers who have been using it as their go-to figure for so long.  now you see what happens when as a customer and merchant you put all your eggs in one basket: you get a power-play for market share and BS profiteering tactics like Genesis and the V4 price hike. the entire thing is a slap in the face to Poser users and content providers who have been building up the vicky franchise for over a decade.

if you want freedom and choices youre going to have to manage your expectations (ie: and not expect 50 supporting items upon release), give new figures a chance, be willing to embrace mainstream technologies like dynamic hair and cloth, and cut the umbelical cord to your bloated legacy V4 compatible runtime -- the same runtime that has been holding back poser development and progress for years.

There is not a ton of GNDA2 clothing yet, - if there was, I could retire more & more of my legacy clothing.  As far as I can tell, I have almost all of it, and GNDA2 is fast becoming one of my "go-to" girls.  I love what you did with her & Shae.

I am glad to hear more items are coming, I am looking dumping my former DAZ budget ($100 a month) onto GNDA2' wardrobe - I may even let V4 wear some of it.

Hi Laurie, every so often I come out with one!!! Lol.

I apply the same thig when I do teacing, I assume the person knows nothing at all to begin with.

With this type of discussion it is better to try and stay with things that take us forwards and not get bogged down with all the usual baggage that come with it.

Witrh this thread I would like to start with nothing else than a base mesh. Not interested in other figures, V4M4Deaddy BearOrkz etc. Just a mesh to start with.

Now, which way does this base want to go to start with? MaleFemaleTransGenderCreature?

With all things, there has to be a beginning. Contributions given, some go ahead, some don't.

So, before anyone goes off with the more complicated stuff, go back to basics.

Would it be better to have the mesh come with morphs, or do them as a seperate package? This would be a thing for pricing. It's no good bringing something out that is expensive to start with, and then having to buy a seperate morph set to get something that you might call basic forms.

The first morph I always look for is PixieElf ears. Nothing major, just something I use most of the time. Bella came out without these morphs, but after asking about it, along with others, a morph pack came out with those options in.

Anyway, I'm wittering on too much, back to basics to start with.

All the best.

LROG

What I want a seperate male and female figure, a seperate male & female young teen and a seperate male & female small child - yep, I want the Gen 3 figure set. That was much more useful to me than the Gen4 - everyone became "1 size fits all - every one the same size."