Well with ZBrush and Poser GOZ you can now tweak and fix any V4 bends and unrealistic joints body parts in less than two minutes and make V4 poses look better than any WMV4 or Genesis will ever look in poser alone.

Converting conforming clothing and hair to weight maps is tedious if you have a huge Runtime and the results most of the time not very pretty and the mesh gets altered in some parts too. Copying joints zones is fast but most of the time you will have to deal with pokethrough.

Converting V4 clothes to Genesis is even more tedious and long, needs DS, and the autofit results are also most of the time perfectible and unrealistics specially in the breast area. Clothes also seems wrinkled...

So I guess V4 has still a long life for users like me who have 80% of V4 stuff their runtimes.

I just experimented some.a while back.
Can't say I actually know what I'm doing.
I didn't make the rigs for regular cloths in Studio.it's auto.
It's pretty easy to get cloths on V5 in Studio.
The odd part is how they stick ,shrink wrap to V5 in Studio.
One way was You made a morph so the cloths fit correctly.

V5 is more C4D friendly then V3,V4.

There's youtube videos
Some help ,Some I have no idea.

If venders are broke and working for pennies.
I've herd of 2 venders getting CGI Jobs.
If your going for a CGI Job.
What meshes should you make cloths for ?

I also dislike the missing eye_surface material in Genesis. Have to always tweak the cornea material when using V4 characters material if you want decent results and not cartoonish eyes look.

Yeah, sadly, I've had to move to a full-time job outside of doing this and though it isn't Genesis-specific, the split has been affecting me for a while.  I just don't want to feel pushed into this or that type of content creation dictated so strongly by a small market (no matter which side of it, or both, you stand on).

I planned on continuing to do this part-time/hobbiest but frankly my job is so hectic that when I am off, I'm beat and don't have the where-with-all to focus like I used to. :)  I just want to veg. :D

has it become the case, that there are actually too many figures now? and vendors like netherworks are unable to make a living due to fluctuation of demand in the market and the learning curves involved everytime a differently rigged model appears? interesting.....

leading to , if there is no support for a model is it dead in the water even before it is launched, maybe something for the big boys to seriously consider before launching new models?

one other thing that sort of irritates me, there are so many posts related to GOZ and zbrush being able to solve the posing, mesh etc errors in figures, but as a poser user who doesnt have zbrush I find it almost frustrating that obvious lets say bending errors etc are repaired or fixed in zbrush, but I bought Poser, the one tool to rule them all.

The problem is saturation.

When everything is build, there is nothing left to build.

50 years ago, everybody wanted a car. And car sales where booming.
Now everybody has a car, and car sales are down.
Same for everything.
TV, phones, everybody has everything and the economy slows down.

Saturation also makes the prices drop. => The profits drop.

When I see magnificent things for 5 bucks??? I wonder.

Do I need this shirt? Or that shirt? Or do I use the blouse that is at 3 dollar?
Or with all the tools at hand? Do I make / convert my own?

And???
one has to say.
Building something is not a one day job.
It takes time, lots of time to make a good product.
And then sell it for 5 dollar?? Half of it going to Rendo, DAZ or whatever????
What is left for the builder????
How many shirts do I have to sell???????????
And how many shirts are out there??????

It is not only saturation in figures.

Everybody has everything by now.
How many bikini's are out there????
How many shirts, blouses and pants?

It is the economy driving the profits to a bottom level. => Not only in 3D products.

The saturation is general.

Also, 10 years ago??

House / hobby 3D was NEW!!!

Now it is wide in the open, Poser and DS are not the only players on the market any more.

If they want to survive, they will have to bing something NEW!!!
And I do not only mean new figures.

I buy Fifa and Call of Duty every year. Point is, there are things people will buy over and over if it is something they want, even if theres only a slight change. As long as they have the latest and best and it looks good. Same applies to clothing products. I might have 5 pairs of jeans, but if a new one comes out with better textures and more morphs, in the cart it goes. That is how this market operates on a mass scale. Otherwise vendors wouldn't release the same content if it didn't sell. Most of us buy what we don't really need, but want. It's the compulsive behaviour in most of us in general:) Its like a woman with a shoe addiction. Half the shoes are never even worn, but must be added to the collection:)

Actually, there's another aspect that some people have missed. I'm talking about a few vendors who get so mad when someone criticises their products that they actually tell customers stuff like "If you don't like it, learn how to model your own stuff."

Well, I've taken that feedback to heart and I'm learning how to make my own clothes, props, etc. So either way, I'm probably going to be spending a lot less on ANY model when I can make it for free myself, and if I want, give it away for free as well.

Poser rules them all ? Good thing I don't exist in your universe.

"one other thing that sort of irritates me, there are so many posts related to GOZ and zbrush being able to solve the posing, mesh etc errors in figures, but as a poser user who doesnt have zbrush I find it almost frustrating that obvious lets say bending errors etc are repaired or fixed in zbrush, but I bought Poser, the one tool to rule them all."

 

The problem is of course that figure creators never admit "I couldn't be bothered to spend another couple of hours to get the bend to look right", but rather blame Poser for it.

Well, Poser rigging indeed used to be rather crappy, but not anymore.

JCMs are still needed and ZBrush is a great tool to create them, but the rigging should be done right the first time.

The only excuse are old figures that couldn't be rigged better with the tools available at the time they were created.

For example it took me a whopping 10 minutes to pretty much eliminate Genesis "exploding butt" just by editing the bulge map for the thigh bones.

Of course it's too late now as vendors would scream bloody murder if DAZ decides to change Genesis rigging after almost a year.

i guess rorrkonn missed my irony as usual lol

Yeah, I just felt that I needed to make my choice between struggling with it and just getting a "brick and mortar" job.  I didn't want to feel that I should make concessions and work on products that don't "move me" artistically.  I suppose I'm just too picky and too independent and the bottom line is that it's not consistently sustainable to do that (work within a niche) and I just felt the best choice was to move on.

On releasing the same thing over and over (jeans or new shirts, etc), when I was doing clothing a lot, I felt that saturation during the V3 cycle.  I can only imagine it's much worse now with the competing apps, figure split, and probably smaller audiences.  From what I see there are less Poser resources online than there used to be, which leads me to believe that generally there is less of a market than it was.  I think the peaks were back when it was new (Poser 4/P4 Propack) and then during Poser 7 (and the new Poser Pro).

Maybe the future will bring bright new things because I do like to be optimistic.  We'll  have to see.

On FiFa, Madden and those franchises... Well cetainly they can release the same thing every year because they have very large fan bases that make it monetarily viable.  When you have hundreds-of-thousands or millions of customers, that you can get into a pattern of yearly installments or DLC, you can do almost anything.  Blizzard could do nothing but release pets and mounts in their online shop for WoW and make unbelievably sick money from it.

One of the three games my wife and I wanted this year we have held off on.  Borderlands 2.  We love the franchise but seeing them drop all this DLC right after the game launches... we are just like.... Hmm.  Think we will just wait for the "Game of the Year" edition.  Otherwise we get sucked into paying $100 for a game, per person.  I mean... nobody's holding a gun to our heads but on the other hand, it's just a game and we can wait. :)  That's saturation on an individual scale too.  I have to stop at a certain point and go... "now hold on just a minute.. this game is $60 and I have to pay $10 for a new class/profession and you want extra for this re-occuring season pass thing... RIIIIIGHT...."

Anyways... that went kind of OT. :D

Well I got a laugh out of it!

" One Ring to rule them all,
One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them"

Does this mean Poser needs to be thrown into the cauldron of Mt.Doom?

Baggins took Precious!

Quote - i guess rorrkonn missed my irony as usual lol

I have both Poser and Studio. I tried studio, but I am much happier with what I can do with poser. So, when DAZ came out with free Studio Pro, I downloaded a copy but never installed it...and I don't really think I will.

I own PP2012, and have the DSON plugin, but I never installed the plugin. There is too much risk of something breaking that pipeline in the future, so I will never spend money on content that relies on both DAZ and Poser's owner (who knows who it will be next year:) ) being in cooperation. If you don't believe me, just ask vue users who upgraded poser shortly before a new version of vue was released. If you wanted to retain that functionality, you were going to have to outlay for 2 upgrades...too expensive for my blood. Studio might be free today, but who knows how much it will cost when it's time to take advantage of the next version of poser. And, if you can't afford that upgrade the plugin, you lose all of your content, I would imagine. Maybe it won't be a problem, but, unless you can see the future, you should keep it in mind as an option.

So, I'll use V4 and M4 until there is a better native set available that has the market support that the mil4 figures have had since almost the beginning (which will probably never happen) SM was supposed to be looking into doing just that, but who knows how it will pan out if/when they are released.

Quote - I still prefer to work with Posette!

dphoadley you rock. Posette is still a good figure. (^-^)/

Wasn't it zBrush ,Maya that ruled middle earth ?
Wasn't it zBrushes invention of displacement maps that made smigel ,mordod ,mt doom ?

Even thou middle earth was partly made by CGI.
There's no CGI ,Games or even electricity in middle earth.
So if it's all same to you all I'll exists here In this realm.

Just my 2 cents, although I was not into 3d yet when V3/V4 switch did happen, I can clearly see why all vendors support went into V4, V4 was looking much better, realistic, and anything you want (never used V3, but when I see a V3 picture, usually I can see it's a V3).

I don't feel the same improvement between V4 and Genesis, I mean Genesis doesn't make V4 look like an old-fashioned figure at all. Without talking about the troubles to get Genesis working (Poser people needed to learn Daz 4 some time ago, now they need to work with that DSON thing, doesn't seem to be 100% reliable).

I'm very glad vendors here are still supporting V4, because I think Daz has 'officially ' dropped V4 support 1 or 2 month ago (nothing for V4 among new releases, Daz vendors selling stuff on other shops more and more, Daz front shop looking as if V4  never existed, etc).

Kudos to Renderosity, V4 vendors, and Rdna too, for that :)

Forgot to add one point too, above not releasing anything for V4, I suspect Daz is 'retaining' some items from their shelves.

There are some outfits that were made for both V4 and Gen that were never released for V4, and some characters that were probably done for V4 but released only as Genesis products (I can't be 100 % sure here, for characters, but I smell it happened...).

I doubt they would hold products back intentionally. They might turn down V4 vendered items, since v4 isn't their focus, but it would be bad business practice to purchase an item only to keep it locked up. Of course, it's also bad business practice to take away basic site functionality, and they did that with the website, so, you never know:) 

My guess is that some artists are creating content for both genesis and V4 on the hopes of appealing to both Poser and Studio users. Personally, I don't even check any more. So, if there are items there for V4 and company, I wouldn't have noticed, because I don't even click on support items for figures (clothing, etc) when I do happen over to DAZ's site. 

There are items here that come with both V4 and Gen files and there are items at DAZ that come with both native poser files (cr2, pp2, etc) and files with the ext of duf (mostly hair and or props-builidings, etc not clothes). Which I assume is for Gen figures and or the current version of DAZ Studio. But I could be wrong on the later. I just look for what works in natively in Poser with no DSON required.

And yes it takes a lot of searching and jumping thru hoops to find new Poser items on their new website. Which in turn probably makes the artists and management here very happy ($cha-ching$) :ohmy:

Quote - There are items here that come with both V4 and Gen files and there are items at DAZ that come with both native poser files (cr2, pp2, etc) and files with the ext of duf (mostly hair and or props-builidings, etc not clothes). Which I assume is for Gen figures and or the current version of DAZ Studio. But I could be wrong on the later. I just look for what works in natively in Poser with no DSON required.

And yes it takes a lot of searching and jumping thru hoops to find new Poser items on their new website. Which in turn probably makes the artists and management here very happy ($cha-ching$) :ohmy:

In store ,Just click on the left for what you want.
DAZ is set up a lot like turbo ,probably cause Genesis was made for high end app's.

Quote -
DAZ is set up a lot like turbo ,probably cause Genesis was made for high end app's.

No, genesis was made for DS4. It uses proprietary technology which other apps do not support

Poser still rules the world - counting by number of NVIATWS

NVIATWS Rules The World! Nearly Nekkid Vicky in Skimpy Armor is ready to take on Genesis! :-) I think there are more NNVISA renders. I've got a few NNGISA renders-but the whole DSON thing slows down my production. BTW

 

Quote - > Quote -

DAZ is set up a lot like turbo ,probably cause Genesis was made for high end app's.

No, genesis was made for DS4. It uses proprietary technology which other apps do not support

Poser still rules the world - counting by number of NVIATWS

Quote - NVIATWS Rules The World! Nearly Nekkid Vicky in Skimpy Armor is ready to take on Genesis! :-) I think there are more NNVISA renders. I've got a few NNGISA renders-but the whole DSON thing slows down my production. BTW

 

Quote -> Quote -

DAZ is set up a lot like turbo ,probably cause Genesis was made for high end app's.

No, genesis was made for DS4. It uses proprietary technology which other apps do not support

Poser still rules the world - counting by number of NVIATWS

Don't know I would say she's ready to take on the cold with that out fit ,

But she's keeping me warm ;)

HAHA! I was just about to move her to a warmer climate.... :-)

quote]

Quote -

Don't know I would say she's ready to take on the cold with that out fit ,

But she's keeping me warm ;)

Nice render.  The materials look great. 

Agree that the DAZ store has become very confusing.  I am looking for something on which to spend that $5 coupon they gave out today.  Or the $6 PC monthly coupon, which expires tomorrow.  And I'm finding the only way to tell if something works in Poser without DSON is to ask in the forums.  I thought if there was a CR2 it would work in Poser, but apparently not. 

 Thanks Randym

You have to have the DSON companion files for them to work in Poser. There is way to generate them yourself in the latest DazStudio version-but I have not done that myself. The original Daz instructions confused me a bit. Older files will need to be converted to the new Daz format (DUF I think) before you can generate the DSON Poser Companion files for use in Poser.

If you can get that work-then you should be able to use any Genesis product (I think).

Someone correct me if I am wrong!

Eric

 

Quote - Nice render.  The materials look great. 

Agree that the DAZ store has become very confusing.  I am looking for something on which to spend that $5 coupon they gave out today.  Or the $6 PC monthly coupon, which expires tomorrow.  And I'm finding the only way to tell if something works in Poser without DSON is to ask in the forums.  I thought if there was a CR2 it would work in Poser, but apparently not. 

Quote - Nice render.  The materials look great. 

Agree that the DAZ store has become very confusing.  I am looking for something on which to spend that $5 coupon they gave out today.  Or the $6 PC monthly coupon, which expires tomorrow.  And I'm finding the only way to tell if something works in Poser without DSON is to ask in the forums.  I thought if there was a CR2 it would work in Poser, but apparently not. 

Compatible 3D Figures  Victoria 4
Compatible 3D Software DAZ Studio, Poser

Then it will work in Poser with out DSON. Right ?

---

Compatible 3D Figures     Genesis, Victoria 4
Compatible 3D Software     DSON Importer for Poser, DAZ Studio 4.5, Poser

Her I'm not sure
V4 will work in Poser with out DSON
Genesis will work in Poser only with DSON
Right ?

---

Compatible 3D Figures     Genesis
Compatible 3D Software     DSON Importer for Poser, DAZ Studio 4.5

Then it will work in Poser only with DSON. Right ?

---

Compatible 3D Figures     Genesis
Compatible 3D Software     DAZ Studio 4.5

Then it will not work in Poser. Right ?

---

So as long as you got
Compatible 3D Figures  Victoria 4
Then it works in Poser with out DSON ,Right ?

Quote - I run Poser 7. Its a hobby , so the money to upgrade to Pro2012 is simply not there. I only have Poser 7 because of a successful product and a grateful vendor. (some technical help by me) Genesis and weight mapped figures are not an option for me , so I have not paid much attention to the discussions about them. Daz studio 4 simply does not run , and several questions to Daz got me no answers about what is wrong. I doubt I am getting everything out of Poser 7 so I dont feel I need a more complicated version that I wont get a lot out of either.

I have Poser Pro 2012 and consider myself somewhat of a professional artist, but find myself going back to Poser 7 for some reason. I don't really need super realistic renders for what I do. As far as Genesis is concerned, I haven't tried it in Poser, it seems too complicated and I don't find the model as attractive as V4, DS drove me crazy, and I have soooo much content for V4 that if they stopped production for it, I'd be OK for like a decade. I used to shop a lot at Daz but now all my money is going here LOL!

Yeah, I think DAZ's switch to Genesis was the best thing that could have happened for Renderosity's market place. At least, it seems that way to me. I've certainly spent more here than I did at DAZ this year....by a lot. 

 

Quote - I doubt they would hold products back intentionally. They might turn down V4 vendered items, since v4 isn't their focus, but it would be bad business practice to purchase an item only to keep it locked up.

Well, I know at least one outfit for which they did that, and as I said I smell this has been happening for some characters.. :/  Bad business practice, most likely, but I guess it's their way to tell people "just forget about V4, and go get our brand new Genesis stuff now".

Here is one thing that needs some Python script guru attention. SM? The Transfer Active Morph function for DSON importing-needs a major overhaul. Is there any way to add manual deselection of morphs to "project?" As it is it projects EVERY morph on EVERY piece of clothing. And that IS SLOOOW.

Here's an example: I added Genesis to a scene-my Genesis has MANY morphs installed btw. Then I added Alruna Armor- conformed- then applied Transfer Active Morphs. This process took 18 minutes. Largely because it projected the (non-effect) of dozens of irrelevant morphs on every piece of armor. Example: Eyelash Length-on Boots! If there was someway to Project only foot and leg morphs on the boot-it would save a LOT of time. The same is true for every piece of the armor set-it will project EyeIrisCorrection on Boots, armpieces, pants, etc.

When I had base genesis only-it had far few morphs to project.

My computer is a bit old-but does have an Intel Xeon 4 core 2.66 Ghz processor-

Genesis is the center character in the render. About 10 minutes to import and conform the armor- and just under 18 to make the clothing fit.

And so I have not switched my V4 characters to Genesis....

Quote - Yeah, I think DAZ's switch to Genesis was the best thing that could have happened for Renderosity's market place. At least, it seems that way to me. I've certainly spent more here than I did at DAZ this year....by a lot. 

 

 

I met a lot of the Daz people at Siggraph and felt a strong loyalty to them and when I first saw an early version of Genesis on a laptop, and was told off-handedly that it won't work in Poser, I knew it was the beginning of the end. I tried to be loyal and buy their products but I realized during the last sale that I already own pretty much EVERY Poser compatible model they have!!! I bought some cars and stuff, but I spent wayyyy too much here at Rendo during the December sales! I'm starting to have withdrawal from checking what vendor is on sale LOL...

 Genesis is okay. I wish I could have M5 as a stand-alone figure, as I will concede that in many ways he's a decided improvement over M4. But DSON is a pain, Genesis doesn't fit my workflow well, and I just haven't invested in enough clothes to make it worth it--not to mention that the clothing I have attempted to use doesn't seem to always work well. So I'm very happy to stick to Gen4. The Genesis Young Teens interested me, but they're overpriced and look too toonish. I'll be interested to see K5, but since so far M5 is the only figure (?) I can call a distinct improvement over its Gen4 counterpart and DAZ never spends much time on the kids, I'm not really expecting much.

 As many in here have said already, it's whatever works for you. I have seen some lovely renders using Genesis. I've seen good renders in DAZ Studio, Poser, Vue, Cararra, Reality, etc. It's not about what tools you use; it's about the artist using them. We all find the tools that fit us best--for me (and a lot of other Poser users) that's Poser and Gen4 (or newer Poser-specific figures like Anastasia, Miki 4, and Tyler--none of which I've been able to use much yet, sadly, due to a horrible lack of content); others will choose differently, and as long as it fits them that's fine. That's why there are options.

I started to buy less at Daz when I found I had little use for the club and thus cancelled my membership of PC.  Just after that Rendo started Prime and I am now a member of that and much happier. That was before Genesis and even after the introduction I still looked on the Daz site but I am afraid the web site re-vamp was the last straw for me.  I guess it must be working by now, I don't know as I do not even browse there anymore.

I deleted the voucher I recently got in an email as I was too busy overspending on the daily 50% sale here.  In fact, if I can find the time I will go to the Daz site and unsubscribe to the emails so to cut down on my in-box.

I am sure there are others that moved to Daz and now spend more there than they did at other sites so I am sure Daz can survive without my custom but I do think that the last year has seen the hobby begin to split into two camps.  As always there will be some with a foot in both camps but for many the trouble of trying to keep updated with both camps will be too much.

Part of me thinks this split is a shame and I could certainly have done without the flame wars that erupted.  Another part of me thinks choice is good and I am pleased that those who want to can use Genesis in Poser in some form. 

If my buying pattern is normal (it would be the only thing about me that was) then V4 did well this Christmas and I fully expect her to have a equally good Christmas in  2013.

The DAZ store still blows.  I still buy stuff there, but they don't make it easy.  I am probably going to let my PC membership lapse.  It's become a waste of money to me because of the new terms, which are apparently due to technical limitations of the new store.

Still no workable order history.  It does not warn you if you've bought something before.  Rosity does, RDNA does, Cornucopia3D does, DAZ used to, but since the revamp, the DAZ store does not warn you when you've bought something before, and you cannot easily check.  (No sorting or searching of order history - and 70 pages of items to look through, in my case.) The DAZ History Manager program is great, but it's another hoop you have to jump through (and is Windows-only). 

The store search engine is horrible.  You can't find anything.  It's ridiculously bad.  Search on morphing fantasy dress and you get results for each word - every dress, every fantasy related item, every item with morphs. 

The old store had an "accessories" link, which made it easy to find add-ons for products.  If you were looking at a dress, you could easily find all the texture packs for it. If you were looking at a figure, you could find all the clothing and textures for it.  Now there's no way to do that that I can find.

I am really astounded that the store is still so bad, months after the switchover. 

Same here. Jeez how long does it take you to sort out a website? I have seen companies with more technical sites sort out all their issues within a month. It's actually sad that it is taking them so long. But thats them in general, even with a response to a mail, they just take long with everything. Worst of all is the damn wishlist. I can't even arrange by price so I can buy what I wishlisted within my current budget for a product. Renderosity's structure is the benchmark.

Quote - the DAZ store does not warn you when you've bought something before, and you cannot easily check.  (No sorting or searching of order history - and 70 pages of items to look through, in my case.)

It would be a lot easier if they had some type of sorting and a search like they used to, but I have 35 pages of 50 items per page and I can find anything in less than 20 seconds. I don't need to do it that often so it's really not that big of a deal for me.

Quote - The store search engine is horrible.  You can't find anything.  It's ridiculously bad.  Search on morphing fantasy dress and you get results for each word - every dress, every fantasy related item, every item with morphs. 

Put your search in quotation marks. I searched for '"morphing fantasy dress" and got 42 Items, all of which were for the morphing fantasy dress. Personally I find the search in the store here at Rendo much worse.

 

 

Coldrake

Quote - Put your search in quotation marks.

Actually, it works much better now, even without quotation marks.  I gather from some comments over at DAZ that the search function was broken for awhile.  I guess they fixed it today.

I hope Rendo continues to sell M4 items since that is mostly what I use.  I'm too old to learn DS when I've been using Poser since version two.  I have Poser9 and still use 8 because it's faster.  Genesis never interested me and I didn't want to buy all new clothing again when the Gen4 figures work just fine.  Besides, like others, I have many runtimes that are at full capacity and I can't imagine loading all the DS files for each item.

I'd like to know why there are more clothing items for M5 than there ever was for M4.  Vendors said male clothing didn't sell for M3/4.  Is it selling now for M5?  There is some great clothing for M5 that I wish I had for M4.  It's tempting to buy, but how much of a hassle is it to convert in Poser?

Quote - I'd like to know why there are more clothing items for M5 than there ever was for M4.  Vendors said male clothing didn't sell for M3/4.  Is it selling now for M5?  There is some great clothing for M5 that I wish I had for M4.  It's tempting to buy, but how much of a hassle is it to convert in Poser?

It's not made for M5 it's made for genesis.
There's your M4 & there's a genesis M4.
V3,4,5,M 3,4,5 + all the others are just a morph for genesis.
so what ever cloths you make for genesis morphs in to cloths for
V3,4,5,M 3,4,5 + all the other morphs.
At least that's how it works in Studio.

Quote - I hope Rendo continues to sell M4 items since that is mostly what I use.  I'm too old to learn DS when I've been using Poser since version two.  I have Poser9 and still use 8 because it's faster.  Genesis never interested me and I didn't want to buy all new clothing again when the Gen4 figures work just fine.  Besides, like others, I have many runtimes that are at full capacity and I can't imagine loading all the DS files for each item.

I'd like to know why there are more clothing items for M5 than there ever was for M4.  Vendors said male clothing didn't sell for M3/4.  Is it selling now for M5?  There is some great clothing for M5 that I wish I had for M4.  It's tempting to buy, but how much of a hassle is it to convert in Poser?

I expect much of the reason M5 clothing has a chance to sell is that it will also fit female morphs, kid morphs, and monster morphs... something M4 clothing would never do easily.

I've bought some M5 clothing because, for me, the lack of male content for Poser is the main reason to even consider Genesis in Poser. But I have yet to do anything with them because just thinking about the hassle in the conversion process is too demoralizing.

If you've just got a couple of outfits to convert, it might not be so bad.

Regarding market saturation – I used to think that this stuff would explode any day. I thought that millions of people would love to ‘unleash their inner artist,’ or whatever DAZ’ catch phrase is. I thought that AutoDesk or some other biggie would snap up Poser or bring out a similar product. No, no and no. I still think there is a natural urge for expression, otherwise YouTube and karaoke would be dead. I now suspect that the number of people who want to really invest the time to create ‘serious’ art or master the technical minutiae of 3D is such that size of the Poser market is pretty much static.

If you look at gaming, a lot of the growth seems to be in the kind of things you can play on your cell phone. How many of the multi-tasking, always busy populace are going to take the time to do the kind of things that Poser/DS are geared towards? At the same time, how many would use some quick easy tool to create online animations or put themselves into their favorite game? I think that DAZ has/had the right idea in looking at gaming and other areas – though I doubt their ability to execute. Without a larger market, we’ll be limited in the number of products, limited in terms of income for content creators and limited to two major companies where the failure of one or any disruption in their relationship can threaten the whole enchilada. I’m not sure that the current fine art and 3D techno demographic is enough to change that.

I stick with M4 and V4 because quality and appearance wise, Genesis just isn't much better, especially for those huge file sizes. And for the majority of poser users who are casuals like myself, that's all that really matters, is the appearance. Add that i'm more of a photoshop postwork whore, and that makes Genesis even more irrelevant. Bad bends or creases? Easy fix in photoshop. Slight quality difference? Easy fix with softening techniques/HDR toning and for those more advanced users, Luxrender/Reality. In some cases, Genesis products look worse than some of their older ones. Sanctums Horde Werewolf looks way better than the Genesis MS Werewolf. The Horde werewolf was made like 3-4 years earlier too.

A lot of us already have bought a ton of products for M4/V4 too, and don't want to buy everything again. Genesis does make some things easier, but that doesn't matter since we're already comfortable with how the Generation 4 products work, so we're used to things like morph injections and what not.

And even though i'm using poser pro 2012, there's a lot of people still using earlier versions, which Genesis is not compatible with. And i keep reading that DS-on has quite a bit of problems. It's just not worth it imo.

> Quote - I stick with M4 and V4 because quality and appearance wise, Genesis just isn't much better, especially for those huge file sizes. And for the majority of poser users who are casuals like myself, that's all that really matters, is the appearance. Add that i'm more of a photoshop postwork whore, and that makes Genesis even more irrelevant. Bad bends or creases? Easy fix in photoshop. Slight quality difference? Easy fix with softening techniques/HDR toning and for those more advanced users, Luxrender/Reality. In some cases, Genesis products look worse than some of their older ones. Sanctums Horde Werewolf looks way better than the Genesis MS Werewolf. The Horde werewolf was made like 3-4 years earlier too. > > A lot of us already have bought a ton of products for M4/V4 too, and don't want to buy everything again. Genesis does make some things easier, but that doesn't matter since we're already comfortable with how the Generation 4 products work, so we're used to things like morph injections and what not. > > And even though i'm using poser pro 2012, there's a lot of people still using earlier versions, which Genesis is not compatible with. And i keep reading that DS-on has quite a bit of problems. It's just not worth it imo.

Let me show you something. Because everytime I see canned posts like this I cringe, because then I know you really haven't worked with it, you're just repeating stuff somebody said. Just like you tinker in photoshop, I tinker in zbrush. Just like you, if I don't like something, I have no problem fixing it.

Now I bought SAV's Alpha male M5 and there's a few things I wanted to change bodywise on it, so I did. So I sculpted a different body on him. Hips, chest, abs, glutes, feet, thighs... just like Blackhearted did with the Girl Next Door for V4. Then I softed up the shape so it doesn't have any hard cuts in it. Instantly, this body shape blows away anything you could do with M4 or Gen3. (And I haven't shown you his back ;) ). The same thing could be done with a female model if you or someone else wanted. This is a shift on how you do things, and sure M5 has less polys to work with... but it doesn't look like it's really made a difference when you figure out how to work the mesh.

Now, I wanted to put him in something sexy... guess what? No one really made sexy underwear for M4... but they sure did for David 3... and I have lots of gen3 stuff sitting in my runtime.... so bam... he's wearing David 3's underwear. Did I buy more stuff? Nope, and let me tell you... this looked a disaster on M4 because when i converted it, it put a nasty split right up the crotch. And also: I didn't have to do much fussing with clothing, because now this custom body shape is going to fit work with all my clothing. And now, i get to pull my gen3 clothing that I could never use with Gen4 and play with that as well.

Another quicky.

Same body, outfit from M3. Did I buy more or reuse what I had? Also since with was a quick conversion, I can make fixes easily by exporting the default piece out and loading it back as an obj... scale it around the new shape and export that to a program like blender, hexagon or zbrush to tweak the shape more, then bring it back in and that becomes an instant fit to this outfit that I can save. And this takes about 15 minutes to do against the M5 shape... now any shape using M5 would look much better.

This had no DS mats, so I'll need to tweak them.

You can only do this in DS4.5. (the cloth fitting part)

You forgot to tell that .

 

Quote - You can only do this in DS4.5. (the cloth fitting part)

You forgot to tell that .

 

And until Poser gets it's tools together to work with it, then yes. But we're talking about how genesis looks and buying more stuff. So your comment is irrelevant.

Never thought I would say this, but it's time to bail out..... up to page 6 or so this thread was very informative, but now the tone is getting harsher and we're drifting off topic.