My hypothesis:

The Dawn D|S version will be supported by the clothing vendors who currently support Genesis 1/2.

The Poser version will be supported by those Poser clothing vendors who are making clothes still for V4.

Although some vendors may choose to learn to rig both ways, odds are, that's how it will split. 

So if you have a favorite vendor that you hope supports your software, look to see which figures they make clothing for now. Some people like Bobbie25 & SickleYield may release dual versions. Maybe (here's hoping) some DS/Poser vendors will team up. ;)

It would nice to hear clothing creators chime in with which software they plan to support.

I will definitely support Poser and will do my best to figure out the DS side for characters & clothes. I'd be willing to consider starting a team if anyone is interested.

What is "DAZ platform despotism"? Are they like a giant government entity that forces you to do 3D in a specific way and squashes all alternatives that you have to fight against? Geez, if this tin foil hat non-rational hatered is who Hivewire has to support them... I fear for their future. Next thing you know, they will do something someone doesn't like and it is Hivewire platform depotism! Thanks Obama!

Quote - > Quote - Saving out morphs in DAZ Studio is very easy so that's not an issue for anyone that knows how.  Poser, I have no idea how to do that.  If I start making morphs for her (like turning her into a him) I'll have to figure that out as I'm one of those even steven types.  We shall see. 

Thats really going to be an issue for you, isnt it Richard?

Im just kidding. But thats the second time youve mentioned wanting to do it!

HAH... when ever a female is released first (and it always is) what does part of the community do or want?  To make her into a male.  Our very own version of a Transgender figure!  :woot:

Can we keep the company bashing out of the thread please.

BOTH sides will be able to use Dawn, if they have the Poser 9+ or DS 4.5+

This thread is about Dawn, so try and keep it to that.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Yes, please keep on Dawn, Obama has nothing to do with this.  ?????

Bill

Yes, I agree and now jokingly, I hope, bringing our good President into it ButohBoy?  REALLY??  Please leave the US political pokes out of this too if you don't mind, that was really uncalled for!  Not all of us are Obama haters here! Nor do I hate Poser just so you know! But  I do primarily use DS because it's more appealing to me!  OK?

Apologies for my provocative earlier post. While I do think (well, actually I KNOW) the things I mentioned are a serious concern for a great many people, I don't believe this is the place for discussing the underlying validity of those concerns. So anyone who wishes to take issue with what I said, please do so through the private messaging system and don't spam up this thread any further. Thank you.

Heading down to 2.30pm in Utah, so maybe some more info from the HiveWire3D team will appear today.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Freebies are fine... make a freebie for DAZ Studio and someone else can convert to Poser or vice versa with normal etiquette/permissions etc

Commercial items, however, would need to be converted by the purchaser for personal use only and could not be shared... so to see hints of possible collaborations to enable dual-platform releases by commercial artists is very encouraging.

That's what I was planning for freebies. I make dynamic clothes on occasion and was gonna release them with generous usage rights ;). IOW, if ya know how to use DS and wanna make a DS conforming version to distribute....knock yourself out. LOL.

Laurie

So as for platform support as a possible content creator with no DS experience, its hard to quantify the likely hood of offering DS versions of potential products.  Its a lot to do with how much time needs to be invested.

can the grouping remain the same in order to preserve morphs? How much work is involved in rigging an OBJ tio work in DS?  what kind of extra work would be involved in packaging the files?  What kind of adjustments need to be made to texture maps?  Does DS use the same formats for bump/displacement/trans/specular maps?

For me the least enjoyable part of making clothing is the set up, followed closely by texturing.... I havent even got as far far as packaging yet.  

Its fun to model stuff, but if its a big amount of extra tedious work to get from a modelled/textured .obj to a finished DS product I'm not sure I'll have the steam to push through it after doing it all in poser first.

If some kind soul can walk me thru the DS end of things (likely multiple times - I ain't as young as I used to be), and is willing to put up with my incessant questions, then I'm all for learning how ;).

Laurie

It's not just time involved in making things, it's all the other little tools as well.

I've gathered all my tools over the years, so now I can do things so much faster.

Plus with using those tools comes the experience of using them.

Something like dynamics I can knock out quite easily, and haver a set of textures done, an have it up at shrecg in less than 30 minutes.

But...... If I have to make that original base mesh, then it takes a bit longer.

Now, going to conforming, you have to group, rig, edit the cr2, double check every bend, twist, rotate etc. for falloff zone problems etc. That takes up time.

Then.... you send it off to someone to test it for you. Yep, even a freebie should be tested.

Only when it passes everything does it get put out.

All the above is Poser based, for Studio I wouldn't know and would like to see a similar workflow post.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Aaawwww, I hope things can remain sun shiny and not dissolve into pointless debate about software or companies.  I'm seeing it crop up more and more and it's making me frown.  

I know it will be a little bit of a challenge to make content for Dawn for both platforms (for those that choose to do so), but I don't think it's going to be as difficult as people are making it out to be.  Just needs to get tutorials out there that explain the ropes for those who want to learn. 

There is nothing wrong with choosing to support only Poser or only DazStudio, if that is all a creator can or wants to do.  I hope we're careful about not putting too much pressure on people regarding that.  People should do what they're comfortable with.  I've no doubt that if enough civil requests for an item to be converted to whichever program it's not native to are made, that the vendors will do their best to fulfill that wish, whether by collaboration or learning how themselves, but only if their life situation allows for it.  Let's be careful not to scare vendors off, feeling they're under obligation.

Collaboration is a wonderful thing.  It's my personal favorite of ways to work.

I hope we can remember the topic of this thread.  We're in the freebie section of the forums and talking about a new figure coming who is going to be free; come with a free hairstyle, bikini, poses, skin (skin also a merchant resource), some expression morphs and a few shaping morphs, and dev rig.  She has been set up to be native to both Poser and DS with specialized rig and weight maps for each, but using the exact same mesh in each.  She poses and bends beautifully in both programs and has a pleasing appearance.  She has realistic proportions.  She has excellent expression morphs, etc. etc.  Her features have already been listed a number of times, so I'm babbling again.  

Anyways, I haven't seen a lot of addon wishlist items mentioned for her.  Weren't they supposed to be highlighted in blue or something like that?  Vendors might like to have more ideas of what sort of addon items the public wants for her the most so they can prioritize their offerings. 

If Xurge is watching...make something quick. I'll buy it. LOL.

Laurie

Agree that vendors and freebie makers should be under no pressure to support both the Poser and DS versions.  It's great if they want to support both, but they don't have to.  Just like they don't have to support both Genesis and V4 now.

As for turning Dawn into a man...well, Chris did say that "Dusk" will be based on the same mesh.  :-)

Hansel and Gretel witch hunters weaponry!!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - My hypothesis:

The Dawn D|S version will be supported by the clothing vendors who currently support Genesis 1/2.

The Poser version will be supported by those Poser clothing vendors who are making clothes still for V4.

Maybe. But I suspect Dawn would have to become very popular on the Poser side first, before DS/Genesis content creators would support her, because they probably won't drop support for Genesis, and that means supporting two additional figures (Dawn Poser and Dawn DS) on top of Genesis, G2F, etc. Many of the content creators I know are already living on narrow margins. Trying to support an extra two figures is going to take a fair amount of time, and if sales don't justify the extra effort, content creators won't be able to afford it.

Saying "some content creators currently support Poser, some support DS" is true now, but hasn't been true for all that long. V4 worked in both platforms, and nearly all content would work in both platforms as well, regardless of which platform it was created in. The exceptions were dynamic clothing and hair, and some textures/shaders.

I regret the Genesis-Poser problems and wish things could have happened differently. I'm not interested in assigning blame or trying to bash one vendor or the other. I hope the rift can somehow be mended. I'm just not convinced a twin figure that requires separate rigging, etc. is going to do it, unless there's some better news the folks at HiveWire3D can give us about the content creation process.

Okay, I've read all 56 pages.  Not even all at once.  Just not bothered to speak up until now.

So if I've got this right, Dawn will have a DS native version, and a Poser Native version, and the inital releases from Hivewire3D will support both equally.  Got that.  It's pretty clear.

What's not as clear is how clothing, hair and morph support moving forward is going to work.

From what I've seen in this thread, it appears that if the vendor only supports one platform, either they can team up with a vendor who supports the other platform, or else it's up to the users of the unsupported platform to get it to work using whatever tools are available within their platform of choice.

Which, depending upon the skill and knowhow of the user, and the features of the product in question, may or may not be a simple process, and occasionally may not be possible at all.

Or am I missing something?  hopefully not something covered by an NDA.

From what I've seen in this thread, it appears that if the vendor only supports one platform, either they can team up with a vendor who supports the other platform, or else it's up to the users of the unsupported platform to get it to work using whatever tools are available within their platform of choice.

Hasn't that been the same thing for years now?

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

I'd like a nice variety of toon morphs for her.

**I'd really love some split morphs for shaping either side of the face ever so slightly different from the other side for realistic people renders. **

**I'd also like squish morphs for sitting and such, stuff a good rig and weight map can't account for. **

**Ummm....I'd like adventure clothes of the Hansel and Gretel ilk, fully clothed kind of clothes.  The skimpy stuff is nice.  Sex sells and all, but it's not what I'm personally looking for.  I usually have to add leggings and stuff to skimpy stuff. **

HAIR!!

 edit to make the last blue too.

Quote - From what I've seen in this thread, it appears that if the vendor only supports one platform, either they can team up with a vendor who supports the other platform, or else it's up to the users of the unsupported platform to get it to work using whatever tools are available within their platform of choice.

Hasn't that been the same thing for years now?

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Not prior to Genesis-- which is what many Poser users have been complaining about. The vast majority of content used to work just fine in both platforms, needing no more than (perhaps) a tweak of the surface material settings.

And if that's your point-- saying "the shoe is on the other foot" isn't going to help mend any splits.

I'm happy for everyone who sees Dawn as just the figure they need, whether they currently use DS or Poser or Blender or whatever. From my point of view, I was really hoping for an advance in cross-platform compatibility. I'm still hoping it's there, somehow, and I'm just not seeing it.

Yea, but there are many of us that HATE the split.  I for one, and I'm a DS user, don't care for DAZ's split in creating their own type of weight mapping because that alienated Poser but it is what it is and we need to keep moving forward regardless.  Peace! 

Netherworks has said that he is working on a Dawn set for his Hair Conversion System.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Guh, my earlier posted hopes for the topic of this thread are being dashed.  :(

Those that know me, know my thoughts on various companies, but even I've managed to keep thatrout of the thread and have encouraged all sides to comes together and work on things for Dawn.

I've said previously in this thread, no this or that side, but OUR side.

As to what Dawn will bring, those on NDA's cannot say, those that don't have her, will have to just wait that little bit longer.

The only info that most people are getting is when the HiveWire team appear and give us that info.

As to the Genesis points, I'm not getting into that, I would sooner talk about Dawn and her possibilities.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

The info that I would most like to know, is what will be in the starter edition and it's cost.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Not prior to Genesis-- which is what many Poser users have been complaining about. The vast majority of content used to work just fine in both platforms, needing no more than (perhaps) a tweak of the surface material settings.

Perhaps the market has grown to the point that it can support two platforms.

In any case, my complaint isn't that I can't use Genesis in Poser.  It's that there's nothing to replace V4, which is outdated now. 

Quote - From my point of view, I was really hoping for an advance in cross-platform compatibility. I'm still hoping it's there, somehow, and I'm just not seeing it.

I don't think the figure you are looking for exists.  Poser and DS are too different now. 

Supporting Dawn DS and Dawn Poser will be easier than supporting Genesis and V4, because she's the same figure, rather than two different figures.  And maybe she'll be so popular she'll inspire vendors who only use one platform now to learn the other. Maybe even lead to the development of some kind of conversion utilities.

But other than that, no, I don't think you've missed anything. 

I'm all for conversion utilities!!!!

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

Quote - Guh, my earlier posted hopes for the topic of this thread are being dashed.  :(

I don't mean to make this a platform war.  I just see a lot of hype about Dawn working perfectly in both platforms.  And while Dawn herself will, Future support from vendors doesn't have the same guarantee.

Which is something I don't really mind.  If I buy something designed for Dawn in Poser, I'm going to have to factor in the extra work I need to do into the cost, be it the hoops to import morphs, the steps to use Transfer Utility for clothes and hair, or the already existing factor of having to make my own material settings.

I just want to keep my expectations for Dawn realistic.  And that means acknowledging that future products cannot be assumed to have the same cross-platform compatibility that she does.  Which means, in effect, that she isn't as cross-platform compatible as it appears some people are hyping her up to be.

Since converting from Poser to Daz is fairly simple and the other way is more complicated the most common workflow for vendors that support both is to first make a V4/M4 version. Having a finished Poser version means that you have done 95% of the total work. It is neither the modeling nor the rigging that takes the most time, it is the texture. The trickiest bits, bump and displacement can be reused in Daz.

Then you can make 3 packages, one for Poser, one for Daz, and one for both. That which is my own experience was confirmed at a seminar (The best 40 dollar I ever spent) with Xurge I attended recently. Most of the time he spend with the texturing.

Even when Dawn is released I guess it still will be best to start with V4.

If one side shows the other side how to do things, then it benefits both sides.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

My picture above shows, one "can" build "Generic clothing".

Both apps have the tools to finetune to a specific figure.

In the future vendors need to support 3 different figures. No big deal, once you master V4 you can do anything. V4 for Poser is the mother of all.

Actually, and I posted this before: All you need for "both" apps is a fully welded clothing object file and a good texture.

Nobody HAS to support ANY figure. Period. LOL.

But, as it is for V4 and Genesis/G2 now, it will be the same for Dawn when she is released...or not. We really REALLY can't say how hard/easy/f-ed up anything is gonna be until she's released. Period. ;) So, the doomsday ppl and the shiny happy ppl could both be equally wrong depending. Point being we don't KNOW.

Laurie

vilters, if you think that the fitting room is good enough for commercial products you are mistaken. Neither is autofit in Daz.

Quote - Nobody HAS to support ANY figure. Period. LOL.

But, as it is for V4 and Genesis/G2 now, it will be the same for Dawn when she is released...or not. We really REALLY can't say how hard/easy/f-ed up anything is gonna be until she's released. Period. ;) So, the doomsday ppl and the shiny happy ppl could both be equally wrong depending. Point being we don't KNOW.

Laurie

I don't see myself in either camp, honestly.  I think Dawn looks great.  I think she's a great advance over V4.  I'm looking forward to adding her to my library.  And as a DS user, I'll probably have it easier than Poser Users when it comes to products produced using features exclusive to the other platform, since going from Poser to DS is easier than DS to Poser, even if there are hoops to jump through.

But I'm not going to pretend that those hoops won't exist either.

Of course clothing is great, and I buy it all the time.

However...with Wardrobe Wizard and now the Fitting Room, it's not that critical.  For me, the reason I don't use figures like Antonia more often is the lack of morphs and textures.  I can cloth her.  She has access to my vast collection of V3 and V4 clothing, and, heck, M3, M4, etc., too.

What I want is morphs and textures.  I assume it will be easier to do those for both DS and Poser, since the mesh is the same.

What I'd like to see is very simple:

A well-made figure that works equally well in Poser and DS, without the need for an import script.  No favoring one format above the other.

As for content, there are plenty of vendors -- more than enough to make Dawn products for both Poser and DS.  I don't think content-creation is a huge issue.  If a figure is popular enough, the content creators will come. :-)

And while I definitely don't want to see V4 put on a shelf (way too many people have way too much invested in her), I do think everyone is ready for a cool new figure, with lots of potential.

 LaurieA, "Point being we don't KNOW."

What about an educated guess?

 randym77, "I assume it will be easier to do those for both DS and Poser, since the mesh is the same."

randym77 is almost certainly right, there will be conversion utilities we today only can dream about.

Quote - quoting Nekokami:
Maybe. But I suspect Dawn would have to become very popular on the Poser side first, before DS/Genesis content creators would support her, because they probably won't drop support for Genesis, and that means supporting two additional figures (Dawn Poser and Dawn DS) on top of Genesis, G2F, etc. Many of the content creators I know are already living on narrow margins. Trying to support an extra two figures is going to take a fair amount of time, and if sales don't justify the extra effort, content creators won't be able to afford it.

Totally agree. Well said. I'm a Poser user (and I use Genesis in Poser). If I were a DS user & content creator, it would take a lot for me to jump ship & go to Dawn (or even Genesis 2). As a Poser user, I haven't been particularly satisfied with a single Poser weightmapped figure yet. So I'm excited to see Dawn in action.

Quote - *quoting Nekokami:*Saying "some content creators currently support Poser, some support DS" is true now, but hasn't been true for all that long. V4 worked in both platforms, and nearly all content would work in both platforms as well, regardless of which platform it was created in. The exceptions were dynamic clothing and hair, and some textures/shaders.

Yeah, it was nice back then when Poser content for V4, V3, etc. worked natively in DS without Poser creators needing to do anything too special (other than adding DS mats if they felt like it - to the dismay of DS users, I'm sure). Poser clothing creators could just set everything up in Poser without having to stress too much about DS. The whole DS weightmapping thing makes dual creation of clothing seem daunting. But I'll be curious to see how this all unfolds.

To be honest?
This hype reminds me of Antonia's hype.

@ LaurieA is right : Time to stay feet firm on the ground and realistic.

@ Vintorx: as if I did not know that.
But one "can" create "generic" clothing and let the end user do the fine tuning to his/her liking for the figure of his/her choice.

@vilters - I agree that it seems similar to the Antonia hype. However there is one major difference: Out of the box, Dawn is traditionally speaking much prettier and has a more realistic face (especially lips) than Antonia. Point being: Dawn could actually live up to the hype.

Antonia is great & has her place, but in the world of artwork, many people want a classic pretty face. Look at what sells here at Renderosity & elsewhere: Young, stereotypically pretty faces on thin bodies with ample boobs. Fine by me, but it does leave Antonia & other figures facing a smaller market of content buyers. Dawn is a bit more traditional (read: model pretty) so I think she may do a better than her indy predecessors.

HiveWire needs to open up a content conversion team for CA's who do not have both apps if they want constant content support in both apps. This will guarentee that content is available for Both versions. Relying on Vendors and users to do that at their own discression is not a guarentee that it will always happen. The other concern is, there are still loads of V4 vendors who use Poser versions prior to Poser9 to create content for V4 because they do not need WM features for her. To get them to all to upgrade for a new figure is another thing to factor in. How many of them will or have is anyones guess.

Quote - No body remembers this picture I posted quite a few times now?
ALL figures ARE the same.
The only differences being in "Z".

In your outline image, is Jessy P6 Jessi?

Thanks!

It's up to individuals to support whatever software they want. I don't think there should be any pressure by anyone to support a system they don't want to.

I make freebies for Poser, so I'll work in Poser. I don't need to make a Studio version at all. Maybe in the future I will, maybe I won't, but either way, that is my decision.

Just because something comes out for one side, does not mean that it has to come out for hte other side.

I can do dynamics quite easily in Poser, it won't work in the same way in Studio, so I'll do them just for Poser.

Those who work with Studio may feel the same way and you won't get me complaining that it should be done for both systems.

All the best.

Great Uncle LROG

@ ssgbryan : Yes, Jessy is P6 Jessi

In the outline it is the one with the "thin" abdomen. :-)

Quote - Antonia is great & has her place, but in the world of artwork, many people want a classic pretty face.

That matters, but IMHO is not remotely the reason people are so excited about Dawn. 

The reason this is exciting is that this is an actual company, presumably with venture capital behind it, run by people who have created successful companies in this field before.  The artistic and technical aspects are great, but the difference between Dawn and Antonia, GND, etc., is that Hivewire presumably has the business end worked out.  There are a bunch of people whose full-time jobs are to promote and support Dawn, and they have a plan to make her so successful they'll make enough money to pay those salaries.  The last time we had something like this was DAZ, with Mike and Vicky.

Quote - HiveWire needs to open up a content conversion team for CA's who do not have both apps if they want constant content support in both apps. This will guarentee that content is available for Both versions. Relying on Vendors and users to do that at their own discression is not a guarentee that it will always happen. The other concern is, there are still loads of V4 vendors who use Poser versions prior to Poser9 to create content for V4 because they do not need WM features for her. To get them to all to upgrade for a new figure is another thing to factor in. How many of them will or have is anyones guess.

Interesting thought ZEV...

Some previous posts from HiveWire which may help to clarify some of the concerns people seem to have.

Quote - We are indeed going to be releasing a native version for Poser AND a native version for DAZ Studio.

As for the clothing compatibility with previous generations, we're still working on getting some possible conversions setup. So that part is still in progress.

HiveWire3D Page 2> Quote - I should clarify that the compatibility with existing add-ons will be based on existing utilities and technologies available (such as the cool new Fitting Room in Poser '14) and any others that may come about such as texture convertors, etc.

Sorry if that part came across as suggesting new ways of achieving that. What we're doing it working with artists from the community who are experts in conversion to help us get Dawn setup with all the latest technologies so that she can be as compatible as any other figure out there.

HiveWire3D Page 3> Quote - Here's what Paul shared with yesterday on a related topic with me: > Quote - Dawn is converted from studio to poser with native weight map support for both programs. What developers need to know is if you create in studio just export as a cr2 and it works in poser. If you create in poser using the legacy or non-weight mapping method, it will work in studio automatically, so easy content creation either way. Folks may want to tweak mats since they render differently but they do work.

Hope that provides a bit of info, tho probably raises other questions, too. lol. Bring 'em on we'll get you response as quickly and thoroughly as we can.

HiveWire3D Page 9 

Hopefully this will stop some of confusion people have.

Edited to make it easier to read.