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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2025 Jan 22 9:27 pm)



Subject: poser: fundamental flaws in characters


hornet3d ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 7:57 AM

It is not a question of making this a Daz free zone and everyone is entltled to their opinion but when it comes to the question of the future of either company it is just that, a personal opinion.  Very few people really know the finacial state of either company and those that do certainly won't mention a word about it on any forum.

Anyone who has been reading the forum for more than a month should have a very good idea of the personal opinion of posters when it comes to Daz or Poser.  Why oh why then must this personal opionion be bleated out day after day, week after week, month after month, and in any thread that happens to be handy.

This has been a good thread with very different opininons until the same arguments cropped up again, almost word for word as the same opinions posted more than a year ago.  It suggests that the thread is quickly heading to be locked and yet another potentially interesting and helpful thread goes the way of all the others.  There are many possible outcomes that might stem from this ongoing trend.  One is that people get the message or get blocked or the vaulable people all leave and then the financial wizards can argue it all out without interuption.  I know which I would prefer if it came to a stark choice.

All of the above is of course off topic, for which I apologise, but then so has a lot of other stuff and it is time for me to find a new thread, hopefully before the usual suspects jump on that one as well.

 

 

I use Poser 13 on Windows 11 - For Scene set up I use a Geekcom A5 -  Ryzen 9 5900HX, with 64 gig ram and 3 TB  storage, mini PC with final rendering done on normal sized desktop using an AMD Ryzen Threadipper 1950X CPU, Corsair Hydro H100i CPU cooler, 3XS EVGA GTX 1080i SC with 11g Ram, 4 X 16gig Corsair DDR4 Ram and a Corsair RM 100 PSU .   The desktop is in a remote location with rendering done via Queue Manager which gives me a clearer desktop and quieter computer room.


vintorix ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:02 AM

Very well, I leave you to your "interesting and helpful things" then.

Bye!

 


Teyon ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:10 AM

Just hopping in to say it's a 1.1 update. Not like a Rex and Roxie 2.0 or anything. I wouldn't expect huge changes. I don't know everything that got worked on, I know the eyelashes were changed and that face room support for them got improved but I don't know what else was done, as I was on another project at the time.  We do plan on supporting the figures beyond the 1.1 update.

 Ok, get on back to what needs fixing. 


edgeverse ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 9:03 AM

Lets just say, some like poser and what they offer, and some like daz with what they offer.

3D Digital Comics & Art/My homepage
http://www.edgeversemedia.com


wolf359 ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 10:13 AM

**Quote>>"I don't know. It was my understanding that DAZ was trying to license the tech to SM, as well as other much bigger brands like Autodesk, etc, and various game engines, in an attempt to generate more sources of revenue and open it up to the more professional studios. **

It's also my understanding that those other brands wanted nothing to do with it. I have yet to see any evidence of it being used in any game engines or anything from Autodesk, or any other software for that matter, outside of DS. But who knows."<<end Quote.

 

 

So far only "iclone" from "Reallusion" has somewhat Direct support for the genesis
http://www.reallusion.com/iclone/pipeline/flow_motion_daz3d_export.aspx

figure and Dont expect any others( Autodesk,SideFX,Maxonetc).

But by the same Token no major pro app supports the poser format natively
without third party plugins such as interposer pro for Maxon Cineam4D
http://www.kuroyumes-developmentzone.com/cinema-4d-commercial-plugins/interposer-pro/

The reality for DAZ & SM is that trying to get the "pro CG" companies to officially adopt your character&content formats is probably not a good business plan
because such companies are founded on pipelines that demand that they build custom assets on a per project basis such as a new game title or the VFX/chracters for a movie.

 

 



My website

YouTube Channel



-Timberwolf- ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 10:21 AM

Quote - Lets just say, some like poser and what they offer, and some like daz with what they offer.

Ahem yes, I prefer Poser , but that DAZ competition is important. It is just to have the choice, decideing which app will do a better job. I think without the DAZ competition we would still be stuck with Poser4.


Winterclaw ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 11:08 AM

They fundemental problem is they aren't built for lazy people.  Or people who aren't 100% committed to learning all the nitty gritties.

Take that stuff about deleting magnets.  I would in no manner think of doing that.  Part of it is because I don't know how to off the top of my head.  I have enough problems getting the mat room to do anything on my own.  The other part is I'd kind of expect those to be symmertrical by default.

IMO here's the hugest problem with all poser's figures (including genesis and V4).  I've done a lot of research on the matter so I know it to be true.  There's got to be at least 8 fixes and options for this one thing for V4 alone.

Boobs. 

Base characters don't have enough or good enough boob options for females.  You've got size, gravity, squish, and movement.  You've got both morphs and magnets to fix 'em.  It's good there are so many fixes on the market but still, all breasts are horribly broken and insufficent by default. We probably need some kind of dynamic breasts, but I don't think poser is built to handle that.

 

:D

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)


WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 11:16 AM
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Quote - Plus, Genesis' mesh is not all that great. It lacks important details that other Poser meshes actually do have. Seratus and abdominals, for example.

SM needs its own refined mesh that they can do with what they want, without being shackled to somebody else's. Why they haven't been refining their best meshes over the years instead of continually creating new ones is beyond me, but they could always start. 

 

So, perhaps a more fruitful discussion might then be to give examples of meshes that are particulary good in certain areas...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


RorrKonn ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 11:51 AM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 11:52 AM

I'm not ragging on DAZ or Poser ,but none of there tech is new.
Any tech ya find in DAZ or Poser .The High End app's all ready have.
So eventually some of the High End Tech makes it to DAZ Poser.

Around the Poser 4 days.
There was a Max Plug called Charaters Studio.
Had all the Poser 4 Characters in it.

Back in the Poser 4 days I always thought eventually in the furture one of the HighEnd App's would make there own Poser like software.
They never did make a C4D Poser .
What they done was make character tools build in to C4D,Max etc etc.

Ya know how the online millions to make RPG use to be $15 a month and now there FREE.competition keeps the price down.

All the times Poser Company has been for sell DAZ never bolt Poser.
I never want to see Poser owned buy DAZ.

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance


basicwiz ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:01 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:06 PM

Can we just discuss the FIGURES and leave the companies and their motivations out of it? I've been tempted to lock this thread from message one just because of the childishness further up on this page. If any dog returns to that vomit, please notify me. I will delete all messages that are off topic at that time, and issue repremands to those who cannot stay on topic.

Clear?

Upon review of the entire thread, I have a question: What has been posted in this thread that is productive? By productive, I mean, what has been posted that the poster REALLY expects will have the slightest minor iota of impact on any of the mentioned figures? Do you REALLY think this is going to change what Daz, SM, or anyone else does with their figures?

My personal opinion (clearly labeled) is that this entire thread is a thinly disguised troll to see what fights can be started. Sure enough, some of the usual suspects took the bait. Oh, well...

I am, however, giving the thread and the OP the benefit of the doubt, as on rare occasions I AM wrong about things. (Sarcasm flagged)


Winterclaw ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:13 PM

You mean we aren't going to get dynamic breasts?  :`(

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)


WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:17 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:18 PM
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Quote - Can we just discuss the FIGURES and leave the companies and their motivations out of it? I've been tempted to lock this thread from message one just because of the childishness further up on this page. If any dog returns to that vomit, please notify me. I will delete all messages that are off topic at that time, and issue repremands to those who cannot stay on topic.

Clear?

Upon review of the entire thread, I have a question: What has been posted in this thread that is productive? By productive, I mean, what has been posted that the poster REALLY expects will have the slightest minor iota of impact on any of the mentioned figures? Do you REALLY think this is going to change what Daz, SM, or anyone else does with their figures?

:biggrin:

...As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began.
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool's bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;..

.--Rudyard Kipling

Teyon, who creates figures for SM, is in on this thread, so it may not be simply an intellectual excersise... 😉

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


AmbientShade ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:26 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:37 PM

file_499851.jpg

> Quote -So, perhaps a more fruitful discussion might then be to give examples of meshes that are particulary good in certain areas...

I tried talking about good meshes in the Dawn thread and got accused of having an agenda. Then it got locked. 

Good topology follows muscle flow. If you want the figure to bend and distort like a real human then the figure needs to have the same muscle groups that a real human has. Those muscle groups are the geometry (topology/geometry, the terms are interchangeable in this regard). 

When building a figure for facial animation, the facial topology follows the muscles of the face so that eyes and mouths move and stretch, open and close, like a believable human's face does. So it makes sense that the same rule applies to the rest of the body. 

Anyone that intends on being a figure artist needs to spend significant time learning anatomy. Along with that, they need to learn how geometry distorts, stretches and collapses and how to use edgeflow to control all that distortion. 

Examples of good topology in previous Poser meshes are the G2 males. Most of the major muscle groups are defined. The poly count is heavier than necessary, but the figures are all quads, which Poser (and most other 3D apps) likes the best. P6 James is another example of good topology and a very lightweight mesh, at right around 22K total. He does have a lot of tris, but his muscles are defined. Another good mesh is Ben. Much less geometry, but he's all quads and because he's relatively lightweight, the missing groups could be added in with some minor edgeflow adjustment.

Female meshes tend not to be as detailed, because you generally don't see a lot of muscle tone in females. This isn't a good thing though because without the geometry that makes up the male mesh, the female mesh will never have the ability to show muscle tone properly, or the flexing and contracting that happen in muscles when limbs are posed and animated. 

In the attached image - just follow the darkest lines that define the muscles. The mesh should follow those lines as closely as possible.

 

~Shane



WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 12:39 PM
Online Now!

I loaded up 2 G2 Simons and swapped right and left on one and it doesn't appear to have the Symmetry issue that Syndey does...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


AmbientShade ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 1:09 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 1:23 PM

file_499852.jpg

> Quote - I loaded up 2 G2 Simons and swapped right and left on one and it doesn't appear to have the Symmetry issue that Syndey does...

Correct.

That would be due to this issue right here: 

Notice the extra row of polys just above/to the side of the G2 female's breast on the left (right in the pic) along with the collapsed edge in the breast. This isn't present on the right side (left in the pic). This makes mirroring morphs impossible. Somehow the geometry was collapsed, or just built wrong to begin with, and nobody noticed it. Or if they did notice it, it was too late to correct it before release. Maybe due to all the other work that had already been done would have to be undone in order to fix it. I don't know, but it should never have been released this way. 

I had thought before that it was only in Sydney, (because she has issues with her rig that Jessi doesn't have), but it's in Jessi too. I don't have Olivia, but I can assume that she has the same problem. There may be other geometry issues with them that I haven't spotted yet, but so far this is the only one. It's enough to break any symmetry regardless.

ETA: Actually it would be an easy fix as it's just a couple edges that need extending, and uncollapse the one edge in the breast. It wouldn't affect the rig. So yeah, don't know why it wasn't fixed. It would affect any morphs that were built, and would have to be rebuilt. At the time the G2 figures were created, it was much more difficult to redo morphs as there was no software available to project morphs onto a mesh like there is now. So maybe that's why. 

 

~Shane



WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 1:28 PM
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It is in Olivia too, which isn't surprising....

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


JoePublic ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 1:34 PM

Content Advisory! This message contains nudity

file_499853.jpg

MIKI-1 was the original. (See pic above) MIKI-2 was the same mesh, but regrouped and re-rigged with a slight UV change. Sydney and Olivia are simply re-sculpted and re-rigged MIKI-II's. The UV mapping was changed, again. Jessi G2 is a re-sculpted HiRes Jessi-1 head on top of a Sydney/Olivia body. MIKI-3 is based on MIKI-2, but with a less realistic body sculpt and a slightly "cleaned up" mesh. MIKI-4 deviates even more fom the once realistic sculpt and I think the mesh has been lightened once again. * Given how well SubD now works in Poser I suggest to use the James I LoRes mesh as a base with some topology changes, unless you want to spend the time to de-subdivide Simon. You can still add a HiRes version later. Once the mesh is finalised, simply bodybag it over MIKI-1 so both your male and female figures can share the same mesh.


JoePublic ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 1:48 PM

"Actually it would be an easy fix as it's just a couple edges that need extending, and uncollapse the one edge in the breast. It wouldn't affect the rig. So yeah, don't know why it wasn't fixed." Could be also it was done to prevent theft. On Turbosquid you can find tons of subdivided Poser figures passed of as original sculpts.


ssgbryan ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:19 PM

I have a question for all of you who are expecting "someone" to make a "better" figure or "fix" the issues with legacy characters.

Just how do you plan on getting both the vendors & customers on board with a new figure?

Just for the sake of argument, let's say someone rebuilt G2 Sydney - all "issues" to include symmetry issues are resolved.  We'll call her G3 Sydney.

Just how do you plan on getting the vendors to rebuild all of the morph packs and the figures that no longer work?  Or for that matter, getting SM to build morph sets for it - the only figures that SM built morph sets for were Alyson and Ryan. 

Why would I upgrade to this "new, improved" figure?  I don't do NSIATWAS or yoga renders, so the bending issues that you folks are obsessing over are irrelevant.

Customers by and large, don't appear to care about the mountains that all of you are making out of molehills.  They want to "Load, Conform, and Make Art."  They have no interest in learning the ins-and-outs of Poser (or anything else for that matter).  Most would be content with Poser Debut and it's Poser 4 feature set, and they certainly are not going to be adding modeling tools to their workflow - they are too cheap.  It's a hobby, not a lifestyle for most of them.

With respect to the vendors, they have no interest in any figure not named Victoria 4.  This is the same issue we have been dealing with for the past decade - see all of the male clothing threads. 

In addition to that, many are firmly welded to a Poser 4 production flow and have no interest in changing that.  That is why we are still dealing with crap like materials as .pz2 files in late 2013, DOS naming conventions, texture maps with burn-in, etc.

All the marketing at DAZ's disposal hasn't made the grey golum a Gen4 replacement.  After 2+ years the golum has less content available for it than V4 had in the first 90 days. 

For those of you clamoring for the golum, I'd recommend taking a look at the content available for it - Clothing comes in 3 flavors: European Mediveal Fantasy, Space Fantasy (i.e. not practical), and hookerware.  The figures are all caucasians, all the time.  In comparison, both Miki 4 & Dawn have more ethnic figures available for them than the golum does.

New figures that bend better are ignored by both customers & vendors (See Antonia, Michelle, Apollo Maximus, etc).

We have about 6 years worth of empirical evidence that the "If you build it, they will buy it." is a failed business model.   

So just what would be the business plan? 



Tunesy ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:33 PM

The only "really good idea" I've seen in this thread was the suggestion that SM, instead of creating new figures with each Poser release, improve the existing ones.  For example Rex & Roxie 1 this last Poser release, Rex & Roxie 2 for the next Poser release, etc.  I think that's a wonderful idea.  Don't remember who suggested it but I think it was somewhere in this thread.  There is one possibly major downside to that idea though.  We don't know if in doing that the lack of 'shiny brand new' figures might hurt sales of the Poser app itself.  But I still like the idea a lot so I'm going to steal it and put it in the SM suggestion box.


WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:43 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:44 PM
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Quote - So just what would be the business plan?

 

We're not talking business plans here; we're talking about meshes and rigging... 😉

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


Tunesy ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:45 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 2:47 PM

. . . it's not a business plan.  It's a plan to improve the mesh ;)

edit:  oops -- maybe kind of a xpost there.


WandW ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 3:03 PM
Online Now!

file_499860.jpg

Speaking of improving the mesh, I never looked at  the mesh of Miki 2's mouth before; Holy Vertices, Batman! :scared:

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Wisdom of bagginsbill:

"Oh - the manual says that? I have never read the manual - this must be why."
“I could buy better software, but then I'd have to be an artist and what's the point of that?"
"The [R'osity Forum Search] 'Default' label should actually say 'Don't Find What I'm Looking For'".
bagginsbill's Free Stuff... https://web.archive.org/web/20201010171535/https://sites.google.com/site/bagginsbill/Home


Teyon ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 3:18 PM

file_499861.jpg

> Quote - Teyon, who creates figures for SM, is in on this thread, so it may not be simply an intellectual excersise... 😉

 


AmbientShade ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 3:51 PM

Quote - "Actually it would be an easy fix as it's just a couple edges that need extending, and uncollapse the one edge in the breast. It wouldn't affect the rig. So yeah, don't know why it wasn't fixed." Could be also it was done to prevent theft. On Turbosquid you can find tons of subdivided Poser figures passed of as original sculpts.

 

Ah, good point. I hadn't thought of that.

But things like that don't prevent theft anyway. It just makes it more difficult to create content for, and breaks features years later, such as the ability to mirror morphs and weightmaps. 

 

~Shane



vilters ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 4:33 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 4:39 PM

I know I am repeating myself but a mesh should be ;

  • symmetrical
  • fully welded

The rigging should get extra attention.

NO Magnets => There is NO excuse to use magnets in Posers native figures in 2013 any more.
Weight maps we know now, but who paints bulge maps? ?

Textures, Posers native figures need lots more Quality textures in the box (or download).

JCM's in Posers native figures; You know how to rig? To Weight map and Bulge map? Then you do not need JCM's. Period. End of Story.

Remember;
ANYTHING, and I mean ANYTHING, you put in a native Poser figure can and will go wrong.

See my magnet inventory page 1; Open the xls file, and study the xls file.
(Same assymetry errors can be found in JCM's, that is why they are also a NO-NO in default native figures.)

Think : Usablility.
Be : Usability.

Think : End user friendly
Be : End User and Content Creator friendly.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!


vilters ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 4:37 PM

And, allow to add;  Ha-ha-ha-, we are no dentists. LOL.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!


mylemonblue ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 5:26 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 5:27 PM

Quote - > Quote -So, perhaps a more fruitful discussion might then be to give examples of meshes that are particulary good in certain areas...

I tried talking about good meshes in the Dawn thread and got accused of having an agenda. Then it got locked. 

Good topology follows muscle flow. If you want the figure to bend and distort like a real human then the figure needs to have the same muscle groups that a real human has. Those muscle groups are the geometry (topology/geometry, the terms are interchangeable in this regard). 

When building a figure for facial animation, the facial topology follows the muscles of the face so that eyes and mouths move and stretch, open and close, like a believable human's face does. So it makes sense that the same rule applies to the rest of the body. 

Anyone that intends on being a figure artist needs to spend significant time learning anatomy. Along with that, they need to learn how geometry distorts, stretches and collapses and how to use edgeflow to control all that distortion. 

Examples of good topology in previous Poser meshes are the G2 males. Most of the major muscle groups are defined. The poly count is heavier than necessary, but the figures are all quads, which Poser (and most other 3D apps) likes the best. P6 James is another example of good topology and a very lightweight mesh, at right around 22K total. He does have a lot of tris, but his muscles are defined. Another good mesh is Ben. Much less geometry, but he's all quads and because he's relatively lightweight, the missing groups could be added in with some minor edgeflow adjustment.

Female meshes tend not to be as detailed, because you generally don't see a lot of muscle tone in females. This isn't a good thing though because without the geometry that makes up the male mesh, the female mesh will never have the ability to show muscle tone properly, or the flexing and contracting that happen in muscles when limbs are posed and animated. 

In the attached image - just follow the darkest lines that define the muscles. The mesh should follow those lines as closely as possible.

 

~Shane

I love that illustration of anatomy. Looking at that I see one issue with all the figures made that troubles me. Almost all of them are missing a tight set of vertices that follow the ridge of the hip bone. The Obliques turn inward and terminate at that line and without a tight set of vertices following that hip bone's ridge it's not possible to really show that as well I'd like on an athletic figure. Also if the figure is to be made to be slender that ridge's forward prominence would be visible and that also can not be done well without a tight grouping of verts that follow the hip bone all the way around to the front. I think there is a need for a tight grouping of verts along that hip bone ridge line on a figure.

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things


AmbientShade ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 5:55 PM

Quote -JCM's in Posers native figures; You know how to rig? To Weight map and Bulge map? Then you do not need JCM's. Period. End of Story.

This isn't entirely true.

Weightmaps still have their limitations. 

You don't need as many JCMs as before, but they're still an important part of rigging that can fill in where weightmaps can't. Until weightmaps can be controlled via ERC and called up and removed on the fly, JCMs are still important. 

~Shane



vilters ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 6:02 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 6:03 PM

JCM's in Poser native figures, for general purpose, are as lost disk space and bad clusters.
I have never seen a set that had no left-right errors in it.

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
"Do not drive faster then your angel can fly"!


shvrdavid ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 6:53 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 6:56 PM

ssgbryan brings up valid points. But doesn't address another side of it.

As far as Sydney goes, the mesh has far more wrong with it than just the breast area.

There is a line down her belly that has double vertices, single vertices all over her head that do not make polygons. If I had to guess, I would say that I found over 100 issues in the wireframe.

Bring Sydney into Poser, set subdivide to 1 on the body and move her body back about 10 feet, switch to hidden line view. There are a lot of places in the mesh that divide to 0,0,0 because the mesh is a disaster by todays standards.

Weight map either side of the spine (all of it) then try to mirror it. Suddenly you will see the area on the belly I am talking about. There more areas that will drive you nuts as well.

Even with custom scripts that know where every vertex is in 3D space there are still issues mirroring it because there are vertices from the left side of the mesh on the right side of the body. There are only a few of these, and the wreck havoc on the mesh when mirroring it or doing any type of math to it.

I have a corrected version (symmetry) of the mesh somewhere. I cut the left side of her off, fixed the right side, then did all the other stuff to it. It uses Alysons teeth and eyes to cut down on the poly bloat in Sydneys head and is symmetrical.

The only problem with fixing a character, is that you technically just made a new one. It is at square one.

If I could release a correct version of Sydney would anyone use it? Or would the stigma of Sydney still apply to the corrected mesh?

If I scuplted it into a different character, it will still resemble Sydney's mesh and have the same joint issues that are in the mesh. Worse yet, the stigma of being "just a corrected G2 mesh".

People could fix every legacy mesh that is out there, but the stigma is still unchanged. Nothing previously released for the character would work in a point and click fashion. Scripts need written to do conversions, etc, etc, etc...

Wow, all of this sounds really familiar for some reason...

Do you see where this is going?

Few would use it, support it, etc. But lots of people would say that "X"is still better because my armchair knows...

It happened with Antonia Standard.........

It happened with Antonia WM.................

It happened with V4 WM........................

It happened with Sydney WM, and the people complaining about it saw nothing more than screen shots.

There were a lot of people that poured a lot of time into all of those projects including myself, and what did the community have to say about it?

If you can see my point, that's great. If you can't, oh well...

Model, re rig, whatever, the next big character and see how that works out for you.

The same people will do everything in their power to point out the flaws in, at the first chance they get.



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EClark1894 ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 6:59 PM

There is one thing I'd like to see from Poser SM.  I really like the Kate and Ben figures, but I wonder if Poser/SM wouldn't mind weightmapping them and giving them face room support?




shvrdavid ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 7:06 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 7:11 PM

Quote -JCM's in Posers native figures; You know how to rig? To Weight map and Bulge map? Then you do not need JCM's. Period. End of Story.

A weight map and a bulge map can only move a vertex on one plane.

Too and from the center of the joint, perpendicular to the axis. That's it.

To move a vertex in 3D space you either have to dump scaling and use that map, add a bone, or use a jcm.

We need more available channels to do 3D weight mapping, that is why Antonia and V4 WM have added bones, it allows for 3D weight mapping without scrapping the scaling.



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AmbientShade ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 7:33 PM

All valid points, ShvrDavid, however, don't assume that no one is using the G2 figures and other figures like Miki and Terai Yuki, even with all their flaws. 

If you go to CP's site, you'll see their best sellers in last 30 days and all time. Miki4 tops the 30 days list, and most of the all time list is all G2 content. 

Some vendors have said they get better sales at CP than they do here at rosity or at rdna. 

So my theory is that there are people actually still using the G2 figures, even 7 years later and with all their flaws. 

Roll all of that into a new set of SM figures, that are well designed and error-proofed, and add some good supporting content from SM to get the ball rolling, and I think folks might be surprised at just how much potential there would be for real vendor support to follow it. It won't happen over night of course. The stigma of Poser natives being badly designed would take time to wear off, but that just makes it all the more important for SM's next set of figures to be that much better. It's not an impossible task, it just takes determination. The supporting content already exists in the Poser library, it would just need updating to work with the new figures. A fresh coat of paint on an old house can do wonders for its curb appeal. 

 

~Shane



meatSim ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 7:41 PM

I think the idea that 'someone' can fix/build the ideal poser figure and have it make a serious run of it is pretty much discredited by now.  Firstly the idea of an ideal figure is elusive enough as it is.  In one sense we are too emotionally attached to our dolls for one thing to be 'ideal'.  

Though I dont think they are saying 'someone' should do it.. people are naming names here.  SM should pick one mesh to fix and refine and grow upon.   Daz should make a CR2 version of genesis/genesis 2 or 3 or whatever...  HW3D refine their concept/product a bit more if there is a next iteration...  

For me the focus should be less on the figures in all honesty.  SM in my opinion would pull out a win by making serious/revolutionary improvements in the re-fitting pipeline.  I dont know what is technically possible, but it may take a complete re-imagining of how conforming clothing works.


basicwiz ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:07 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:11 PM

Quote - Roll all of that into a new set of SM figures, that are well designed and error-proofed, and add some good supporting content from SM to get the ball rolling, and I think folks might be surprised at just how much potential there would be for real vendor support to follow it. It won't happen over night of course. The stigma of Poser natives being badly designed would take time to wear off, but that just makes it all the more important for SM's next set of figures to be that much better. It's not an impossible task, it just takes determination. The supporting content already exists in the Poser library, it would just need updating to work with the new figures. A fresh coat of paint on an old house can do wonders for its curb appeal. 

THIS has been my argument for years!

IF the support were to include a set of base clothing meshes, textures in white that could then be easily colored in the material room... WOW! Poser would suddenly become a killer suite right out of the box!

(And btw... the expansions don't have to ship with Poser. The could be put iun place the day of Poser's release on CP is SM wants more money out of the project...)

The question is simply, will they follow this line of reasoning?

Several things Teyon has hinted at give me hope. He posted just up the thread that he is listening!


shvrdavid ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:16 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:20 PM

Ambient:

Im not assuming that they are not used at all. But fixing them can make that happen to either version.

Fixing them means a few things can, and need to happen.

Vendors can update the content already out there, or make new content for the corrected version.

In Sydneys example:

If someone already has a bunch of old Sydney/G2 content and an older version of Poser, the new character and content are irrelivant to them and they will not need or buy any of it.

There is a flip side to that, the customer that has all the old content, the newest version of Poser, the updated character, and the content does not get updated.

They will either buy the new content, or move on to another character that they have content for.

I have V4 content that was never updated when V4 was. The vendors for one reason or another didn't update it. I never bought another thing from those vendors again. I eventually went back to V3 after it happened repeatedly. I have over 200 gig of V3 content that at the time would have just sat there if moving to V4 anyway.

What's to blame, the content creators or the update that broke it? Hmm....

Updating a character is a double edged sword. Catering to everyone can not be done by one group of people, everyone that ever created anything for it has too as well.

What are the chances of that happening with any character if it didn't happen with V4?

2 versions of Antonia and V4~WM are proof positive of that. No one really showed any interest in updating content, and the script to do so didn't really help the image of V4~WM that much either. People wanted a better character for Poser, a bunch of us pumped out 3 of them in less than a year. V4~WM can use practically anything that was for V4, and people still complained because it wasn't "whatever".

I probably look at it from another perspective because I was one of the people that wanted to give people better characters. Then quickly discovered that they really didn't know what they wanted to begin with.



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shvrdavid ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:33 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 8:36 PM

Quote - ... the expansions don't have to ship with Poser...

People complained for years that there was no way to add expansions to Poser.

Smith Micro put the Addon Framework into Poser, and now you can add very complex ones.

How many addons are there now?

Not many at all considering how many people wanted the capability so they could add "whatever"....

Ideas are great, applying them is usually sparce.

 

There is an old saying.

"Be careful what you wish for, you might get it"

Rings all to true....



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Teyon ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 9:15 PM · edited Mon, 02 December 2013 at 9:18 PM

file_499875.jpg

> Quote - > Several things Teyon has hinted at give me hope. He posted just up the thread that he is listening!

 

I find this all very interesting however...


meatSim ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 9:17 PM

Quote -  

I probably look at it from another perspective because I was one of the people that wanted to give people better characters. Then quickly discovered that they really didn't know what they wanted to begin with.

I think this exact realisation is what has soured a lot of the really great community members that had mountains of telent and skill and were primarily interested in bettering the poser community and giving us better things to work with.  

I dont know if we will see anything quite like the poser place projects again.. my gut says no, but maybe thats just me being jaded.  It was sure an amazing experience though, I just wish that I had more skill at the time to contribute more... it really did change the way I look at figures, modelling and poser in genreal


DarkEdge ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 10:04 PM

I am not sure I would put much faith into the CP best selling list Ambient, if a hitler morph is best selling then I need to re-think the whole Kevorkian thing. 😄

Imo:

Part A: Users don't fully understand the limitations/challenges that currently exist in regards to character creation. This can include (but not limited to) bending, jcm's, topology, poly counts, artist interpatation, cr2 coding, etc.

Part B: Artists try to create a figure that appeals to all, when in reality we all come in different shapes and sizes and have as many different whims as we do opinions...good luck on finding two of those that are identical.

Now mix Part A and Part B from above and tell me what you get?

Comitted to excellence through art.


EClark1894 ( ) posted Mon, 02 December 2013 at 10:51 PM

THE MOsT FUNDAMENTAL FLAW with any figure is CONTENT SUPPORT. Talk about Topology and bending and rigging is all well and good. Maybe in later iterations they can even be fixed, but look at V4. She's got a LOT of flaws. So many in fact that there have been vendors who've made money off making fixes for those flaws. And annecdotely at least, judging from the number of people who download my freebies for the native Poser figures, people will use them.

Blackhearted morphed the hell out of Alyson2 with Anastasia and Shaeand several vendors even supported her.

The second biggest flaw that the Poser figures have are their limitation of use. Like Genesis, those figures are pretty much tied to the Poser application. The G2's and Miki are at least available  independent of Poser. It would be nice if their rigging worked in other programs as well.




JoePublic ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 12:16 AM · edited Tue, 03 December 2013 at 12:30 AM

Just wanted to add this: "Ghost bones" are as bad an idea as joint smoothing magnets are. Every additional actor slows Poser down, adds complexity to the cr2 and the weightmapped ghost bone is still not nearly as versatile as a simple JCM is. The weightmapping brush has a nasty tendency to "scramble" high res meshes. Especially at the buttocks and thighs this can become a problem. "Smoothing" won't help, so the only solution is to add a JCM to re-smoothen the mesh. This is no problem for LoRes meshes that get subdivided/smoothed while rendered, but it is visible on your average un-subdivided HiRes mesh. Ghost-Bones also makes cloth-refitting harder. You need to run an "outfitter" tool, whereas if you use JCM's, you either dont need to do anything at all, or simply transfer the weightmaps and JCM morphs to your clothing, which you can do directly in the PP-2014 pose room. Finally, you can't easily select ghost-bones by clicking on them, which makes manual posing a lot harder. The only real niggle I have about Genesis is the fact that I constantly have to manually select the hip bone in the menu, because clicking on the figure's hip selects the "pelvis" actor. The old "buttocks" grouping was much more "posing friendly", And, yeah, I know you can add "handles" to ghost bones, but then the figure looks rubbish in OpenGL. I want my figures to look like actual human beings even in OpenGL and not like some artificial 3D dummy, so here again, JCMs are the much more elegant solution. Ghost bones were a clever kludge as long as we didn't have an easy JCM making pipeline in Poser, but now they are mostly obsolete. I definitely would not want to use a figure that relies on them.


RorrKonn ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 12:56 AM · edited Tue, 03 December 2013 at 1:00 AM

Quote - The second biggest flaw that the Poser figures have are their limitation of use. Like Genesis, those figures are pretty much tied to the Poser application. The G2's and Miki are at least available  independent of Poser. It would be nice if their rigging worked in other programs as well.

You lost me here.
Poser has Fussion .& DSON for Genesis so Poser can be used as a plug for Max,C4D etc etc.

You can export anamtions out of DAZ.So DAZ can be used as a plug for Max,C4D etc etc.

Not that this gets done a lot if ever.
You could export animations out of one Main App n use the animation in a other Main App.

Any exported anamations out of main app's probably done for Games.


99% of Main App's tech rigs,dynamics,shaders etc etc don't cross over from one app to another.
Just like DAZ n Poser about all ya can do is export a .obj .
Get a mesh with UV's,
Probably half to fight with the textures to get them where they belong.

You can get any of DAZ n Poser Meshes ,UV's n textures in any app that has .obj.

 

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance


meatSim ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 12:59 AM

Quote - Finally, you can't easily select ghost-bones by clicking on them, which makes manual posing a lot harder.  

but isn't it the point of ghost bones for them not to manually positioned.. Are they not generally slaved to the rotations of selectable bodypart and used mostly, shrdavid, said to give an extra dimension to the weighmapping of a particular bend?

From an end user standpoint, I didn't find the ghost bones in Antonia to negatively affect my user experience at all.  The figure always behaved exactly as I would expect.  I'll grant you that they did complicate clothing creation slightly as there was always an extra map in play, so it was more challenging to isolate exactly which map was responsible for any particular problem that needed solving.  Aside from that though, the ghost bones never caused issues for rigging clothing.. they transfered just fine in the setup room (I didn't have th fitting room to play with back then so I cant speak to how they work in there)

The one thing that I personally like about ghost bones over JCMs is that you can map them right in poser, while you set up the joint as oposed to setting up your joints then creating the JCM (in my case something I would probably do in a modelling program as I just have never gotten along well with the morph brush)

of course this all comes from an intermediate hobbyist point of view so take it for what its worth


RorrKonn ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 1:12 AM · edited Tue, 03 December 2013 at 1:16 AM

I'd say we found the probleam.

There's no accepted rules.
On how to model,rig etc etc characters or for content creaters creations.

Everyones playing there own ball game.
So we have a field full Chaos.

Can't play ball with out rules.

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance


JoePublic ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 1:24 AM · edited Tue, 03 December 2013 at 1:32 AM

Ghost bones still don't have the infinite granularity a JCM has. You are still tied to a map. Antonia isn't a good example because her shape lacked nearly all antomical detail. The more detailed, the more complicated a figure's default shape is, the more complicated the fixes will have to be. As for creating them, since PP-2014, I do them all in Poser using the MorphBrush and the PoseMorphLoader script. I always tried to keep things as simple and backwards compatible as possible, and a JCM is just an ERC-controlled morph, so it doesn't break any of the existing "helper" tools that were developed over the years. People tend to get carried away with "cool new stuff", but my priority was always to create improvements that were "idiot-proof", so to say. Mainly because I wanted my figures to be as easy as possible to use for myself. :-)


AmbientShade ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 2:42 AM

Quote - Ambient:

Im not assuming that they are not used at all. But fixing them can make that happen to either version.

Fixing them means a few things can, and need to happen.

Vendors can update the content already out there, or make new content for the corrected version.

In Sydneys example:

If someone already has a bunch of old Sydney/G2 content and an older version of Poser, the new character and content are irrelivant to them and they will not need or buy any of it.

There is a flip side to that, the customer that has all the old content, the newest version of Poser, the updated character, and the content does not get updated.

They will either buy the new content, or move on to another character that they have content for.

After this long, I'm not talking about just an update to fix the issues that the old models have. Those updates should have been done within the first few months of their release - within the first year at most.

An updated G2 Sydney should instead be marketed as G3 Sydney at this point, with a revised mesh, a new body shape, new textures, etc. Definitely an improved rig. The mesh doesn't have to be rebuilt entirely from scratch. Just clean it up, get rid of all the junk so that it's optimized for the latest versions of Poser. Follow the pattern that has been done with Miki 1 - 4. (only make the improvements better). Miki seems to be the more successful of the SM figures, so using her development pattern as a template would make sense. Just push it a bit further.

Since SM owns a good chunk of the content for their figures, it wouldn't be difficult to update old content to work with the new figures. Why build yet another pair of jeans, when there's already a dozen or more pairs sitting in the library that have been built for all the figures previously? Just rework them to fit the new figure. With tools like ZBrush, this would be a piece of cake, and in a very short period of time any new/updated figure SM created would have a good selection of clothing ready to go. Doesn't matter what figure its for. Could be done for Rex and Roxie too, since those seem to be the figures SM are focusing on at the moment.

 

~Shane

 



millighost ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 6:07 AM

file_499884.jpg

I am not sure what exactly is meant by "ghost bones". But i think the Genesis figure has one interesting addition: The "pelvis" bone, which is exactly like the "hip" bone but oriented the other way around and inserted between the hip and the legs. That allows me to rotate the hip while the upper body stays in place. Very useful if i posed the entire figure, but decided to make an adjustment to the hip afterwards. With the older figures that would mean to rotate the hip, counter-rotate the abdomen, counter-rotate the chest and so on all the way down to the fingertips, which is very time consuming. It is also not that difficult to make; just insert the additional bone and change the hierarchy in the cr2. What Genesis does not have, however, is an application of the same principle to the rest of the skeleton. I.e. i would like to have a reversed abdomen, chest, and neck. I tried this once with Poser2010 and got it to work, but it was a very unpleasant excercise: Everything has to be done in a text editor; Poser tends to destroy all the setup whenever the Setup-screen is touched; and the cr2 format is rather difficult to understand and of course not documented anywhere. So in principle exactly the thing a figure vendor should do (so that i can just smack together a pose and hit the render button). Perhaps it would be easier with the addition of the new "animated joint centers" feature (which i do not have).


WandW ( ) posted Tue, 03 December 2013 at 6:40 AM
Online Now!

Quote - Ghost-Bones also makes cloth-refitting harder. You need to run an "outfitter" tool, whereas if you use JCM's, you either dont need to do anything at all, or simply transfer the weightmaps and JCM morphs to your clothing, which you can do directly in the PP-2014 pose room. Finally, you can't easily select ghost-bones by clicking on them, which makes manual posing a lot harder. The only real niggle I have about Genesis is the fact that I constantly have to manually select the hip bone in the menu, because clicking on the figure's hip selects the "pelvis" actor. The old "buttocks" grouping was much more "posing friendly"

There's a hip handle for Genesis in my IK  for Genesis package...

http://www.sharecg.com/v/67133/browse/11/Poser/Inverse-Kinematics-for-DAZ-Genesis-in-Poser

As far as ghost bones go, they are harder for cloth refitting, but easier for cloth creation, and they work better for tight fitting clothing, at least on V4WM vs fixed V4 with fix morphs added to the clothing...

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