I'd just like to clarify what I meant:

If you were to put Poser or DS along-side Unreal Engine right now, the 3D programs we love so much would fare badly.  The reason: Unreal would simply need to add what is effectively a "Pose Room" to Unreal Engine and that would be it.

As much a I love Poser and DS, I wouldn't use them if I could import a poseable cr2 into Unreal, that's why DAZ and Smith Micro need to employ Unreal's biggest tactic (a realtime render engine) before Unreal get around to importing Poser figures.

Realtime rendering is the buzzword now, so pretty soon, no one will be prepared to wait for a render because there will be no need to, in fact there already isn't a need to.  Most people probably think that Unreal Engine is just a game thing, but it isn't.  It's used for games, machinima, movies, animation, stills, art, whatever.

I'd say Unreal is a threat that is far from being "Unreal".

I am still not convinced but then I have not played with Unreal as I have no interest so you may well be right.  Just find it hard to believe that a Renders in Poser, Vue the rest take time to do a quality render.  If you can get the same quality realtime it would be all the rage but then that is very different from being a 'Buzzword'.

But even Vue is in danger, every 3D rendering program out there that doesn't do realtime rendering is in danger because people aren't going to sit around waiting for renders when they don't have to.  I've seen it do Vue-type scenery and detail that looks every bit as good as Vue, and dare I say it better due to the talent of the artist using it.

Each frame took precisely one sixtieth of a second to be completely rendered, or in other words, it's realtime rendering at 60FPS and that's pretty damn neat!  You move around your scene like a game, and your render is done, whatever the view is, that's your render.  I doubt realtime rendering can be ignored by any 3D rendering product if intends to survive, I could be wrong, but seriously, I don't think I am, not after seeing what Unreal Engine 4 can do.

If it's not real time.why waste your time with it ?

C4D 16 will be Realesed 08.12.14 for only $3,700.00.
Well that's the end of Poser ,snif snif.

Can we give a way / sell meshes on Renderosity with a game license included ?

For those of you talking about the Unreal engine (4) as a potential threat, have you actually been to the website & rented your software yet?  Just take a look at the system requirements.

Poser and DS are safe.

Not to mention things like:

Generally, you are obligated to pay to Epic 5% of all gross revenue for your product, regardless of what company collects the revenue.

Quote -
But even Vue is in danger, every 3D rendering program out there that doesn't do realtime rendering is in danger because people aren't going to sit around waiting for renders when they don't have to.  I've seen it do Vue-type scenery and detail that looks every bit as good as Vue, and dare I say it better due to the talent of the artist using it.

I have not seen that at all. I've heard others claim it also, but when they posted links it turned out they could not make it true. Yes, I've seen excellent stuff, even in games and realtime rendered, but not with the same level of detail...... at least not something I could afford.

If this were the case why wouldn't big animation studios switch in a heart beat? Because real time rendering still cannot get to the level of detail and quality they are after.

I'm sure Vue and Poser will be around for a while, but I'm not sure when the time is right that they will switch to real time rendering, since the question is can any of us afford that kind of technology? Most of us are doing this as a hobby and to really make real time rendering worthwhile we need to buy expensive hardware and SM, E-On and so on need to implement expensive software changes. In the end the user base will pay the price and that's the time the user base may really shrink, since we simply can't afford to buy that kind of hardware and software.

Besides.... I don't see the problem. If you set up your scenes correctly you can render something beautiful with a decent quadcore i7. I'm working on a huge scene now in Vue. Roughly 12 terrains each with it's own detailed ecosystem, over 2.4 billion polygons in the scene, that is without the dynamic ecosystems. 6 animals with high-res textures. A number of detailed trees, fog, clouds, dust gust and more. It's the biggest scene I've ever done in Vue. I'm rendering it at 1600x900, my test renders take 6 minutes on my laptop (quadcore i7 2Ghz) , but I need to tone down the atmosphere quality for that. The final render with high quality atmosphere takes 59 minutes on my desktop (i7 3770), just a regular system anyone can afford. The scene takes 1hr30 minutes on the laptop, it's a bit older, but still not to bad. But... to get these kind of times you need to set up things correctly. I've seen similar scenes that take 8 hours rendering if not set up correctly. Most people simply don't take the time to set up their scenes right.

With these rendering times am I desperate to invest a lot of money into real-time rendering? I don't think so. Once my scene is done and I start preparing dinner, eat it and even before I can do the dishes my render is finished. No time lost at all. I can also wacht a movie and not even get to the end before my render is done. Again no time lost. For the kind of money I need to invest into good real-time rendering, I can buy a lot of fun stuff.

It all depends on how you look at it. I know E-On doesn't have plans to switch to real-time rendering any time soon and neither have I heard SM plans on this whole matter, so I'm in no hurry to spent any kind of money on something I don't need.

CPU rendering will be with us for many more years, by the time we enter the next decade things may be differently, but by that time they may have invented some new kind of CPU making GPU rendering obsolete..... since that is what technology is all about..... what seems to be the future now will be overtaken by what will be reality when we arrive in the future.

I reckon Unreal must have the best purchase option of any software I know of that is not free, and by now you probably know what I'm like for complaining about stuff like that!

For less than twenty dollars you get the full, commercial, unrestricted product.  If you cancel that subscription you will still retain that licence and can continue to use it privately or commercially.  Depending on what you do there might be a small royalty, but so what, look how cheap it is to licence such an insanely powerful product?

It's an incredible deal.  I took out a month subscription then cancelled, I still have the product and I am still able to use it unrestricted.  This is a fair system, and although I won't be bothering with the current update, I'm absolutely certain I will be buying more in the future because the amount of stuff they add in each release is equally amazing.

They seem to have the only genuinely fair subscription system out there.  I know because I've tried it (and wouldn't have done if it were a greed machine).  It's perfectly fair because even after you cancel, you still have the licence, and if you like what they add next time, great, you just pay another twenty dollars and you're on your way.  If you donlt want to bother with newer releases, you still get to keep your current licence.

So far, Unreal Engine 4 has cost me less than twenty dollars, and unless I want the next version, it will never cost me another penny.  My licence is fine and fully functional.

Cinema 4D is a modelling program as well as a 3D renderer, so Unreal isn't as much a threat to Cinema 4D as it is to Poser.  The only thing stopping me from droppingPoser and DS altogether is the fact that it uses cr2 figures.  If Unreal ever gets to import these figures I would be rendering in Unreal all the time because you're literally walking around a render in 3D space.

Just 45 minutes ago I was walking around a subway and moving items around.  Those items were even reflecting in the water on the floor as I moved them around the scene.  That sort of interactivity is pretty much perfection, so can you imagine what it would be like if you could load up a Poser or DAZ figure in that scene and pose it?

All Unreal would have to do is make an importer and it would do just that.  An even more sobering thought is that they offer the source code to everyone as part of the deal, so anyone with the ability can make such an importer even if Unreal donlt want to.  Due to that, I reckon it's only a matter of time until you can import a cr2 into the Unreal Editor and replace DS and Poser completely.

That's why DAZ and Smith Micro can't ignore realtime rendering.  If Firefly harnessed the GPU for it's calculations, that would be great, and although it still wouldn't be realtime, I think it would still be enough to stop people ditching it for another realtime capable 3D environment.  If Poser used a GPU Firefly to render even a quarter of the speed of Octane, I'd still be happy to stick with it because it's using the native renderer and Firefly is a great renderer designed for the Poser environment.

Even my old GTX460 manages this, no problem:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcfk_vncbfE

Sure, but that is not the real challenge for a game engine at all. It's all limited space, limited view, confined corners. Even my laptop can handle that stuff, no problem at all. It sure looks cool, but when it comes to game mechanics, that's peanuts.

It's actually only the rendering I got interested in it for and I tell you what, reading through the effects and materials sections of the documentation is pretty droolworthy stuff, it's like reading the manual for a 3D renderer only more enjoyable cause you know it'll all happen in realtime while you're "in" the scene as you adjust it.

Don't understimate how powerful their shader, lighting, and rendering system is, I'm not exeggerating when I say I thought it was mindblowing when I first discovered it, I still do.  The main thing is that if you want to, you absolutely can pull-off a photo with it, it's that good.

Unreal uses FBX. 

http://udn.epicgames.com/Three/FBXAnimationPipeline.html

So if you have Poser game dev, then Poser figures should be usable because it exports to FBX. They don't have to be reduced res to work in the engine. 

Here is an example of Unreal Engine 4's real time rendering:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dO2rM-l-vdQ

Say what you want, but I've never seen firefly produce anything close to that. 

Quote -
Cinema 4D is a modelling program as well as a 3D renderer, so Unreal isn't as much a threat to Cinema 4D as it is to Poser

Unreal and Unity both have modelers, tho it's an extra cost for Unity, unless you have a subscription to the full version or have bought the full license, but Unreal's modeler is built in. Probably isn't that great for organics, but it's plenty for architecture. Build, rig, texture all right there in the UDK.

DAZ Poser has realtime renders right now :)
http://render.otoy.com/

Why hollywood does what they do is on them ,not CGI.

I'm not going to go Vue vs realtime.
it's faster ,cheaper to use Vue then it is to make a game forest.
Can Vue make a game forest in minutes ? that would be monumentally helpful.

does 2014 realtime games look as good as real life Hollywood video's right now ?,probably not
,but they look dang good thou.
Do we play are music with vinyl records threw eight 3 foot speakers ? probably not.
why do we settle for mp3's threw two 6 inch speakers ? cause it's cheep ,fast & easy so it's good enough.

Who will win the CGI Wars ?
The one that makes a app that we can set down and make any 2 hour long movie ,
that we could think of in 2 weeks for a very low budge.
They will be the CGI winners and hoolywood will be ghosted.

The links are impressive and I can see it's potential but it depends on what you are looking for from your hobby.  I can't see it gives a great deal if you are in the business of book illustration where you are looking to create a high detail still.  Yep I know games are great but there are still people who read books and comics and I see little benefit from a realtime renderer in that part of the market.

I also produce calendars, banners and cards for the family and friends, none of which need a real time renderer or game engine.  So maybe some people may move away from Poser if they are into games but making yourself the same as the competition is not always the best way to survive.  Finding a niche in the right market is also possible.

Let's also not forget the time involved :) Building a real-time scene takes a lot more time then building a scene in Poser or Vue. So, the time gained with rendering in real-time, you loose big time in building the scene.

For animation yes, such a game engine is cool, but for still images, I don't see the added value either.

Oh, and let's not forget that to get the real cool stuff shown, you need to do coding and that is not for everyone. So, while the videos shown are very cool, it took a lot of time to create those. Building a scene, coding the effects, movements, collistions and more. Rendering is done in real-time, the rest is not and takes a lot of time.

I've created 3D games scenes in the past, using conitec's game engine and a lot of work was involved. I can safely say it takes a lot less time to do a scene in Poser and Vue then it takes in a 3D game engine. Yes, the rendering is real-time and very fast, but that's where it stops :)

You all make it seem like a breeze to use Unreal and other similar engines, but that is not the case, you only gives us half of the story. To arrive at those amazing videos, there is a lot more involed and it's safe to say that the majority of users never get that far or that good!

**
@Shane**
Cheers, I was about to post that Infiltratror demo but you beat me to it!

Have you been able to test that FBX thing?  And am I understanding you right that I'd be able to take any figure or content I can use in Poser, and make it loadable in Unreal so that I would be able to pose the Poser figure in the realtime viewport?

**
@RorrKonn**
I've been looking for a video I saw, it was a demonstration of outside scale and detail, pretty much the sort of thing Vue is famous for, and honestly, it was in no way outdone by the Vue renderer.  In that video Shane just posted, that outdoor scene at 2:45 is absolutley mindblowing when you consider that everything you see has been completely rendered sixty times over in just one second.  I doubt Vue could manage to render that scene just once in per hour, let alone sixty times over in one second!

There's no comparison on the quality to speed ratio because I honestly think Unreal looks better even realtime.  Even more crazy is when you consider not just the rendering, but also the animation and dynamics in that video.  The sparks, crashing ships, particles, dirt, people walking, swingind ropes, it's all calculated in real time - that's just crazy!

I had no idea things like this even existed until a few month back.  The only reason I found out about Unreal was through watching a machinima that was made with it.  I got curous because I started to wonder, how come they've made a movie with it with their own content if it's a game thing?

That's when I discovered, it's not just a game thing.

If you look super-close at that Infiltrator video Shane posted, you'll see stuff like films of oil on the water, particles of dirt on the lens, flare, chromatic abberation, incredibly lifelike physically based materials and shaders, crazy good lighting systems, bokeh, and endless other goodies.  It lacks for nothing and it's all done in realtime!

Like I said, I could be wrong, but I think these things are a serious threat if software like DS and Poser don't start doing realtime rendering in their own viewport.  I suppose one very easy way for Poser to do this would be for them to licence the engine for use inside the Poser viewport, perhaps sell it as an extra just like the game update they just released.  Selling it as an addon would be idea because it means the price only rises for those who want Unreal rendering in their Poser viewport.  And let;s face it, absolutley every Poser user in existance would indeed want that in the viewport, who on earth would say no to instant rendering?

Things like that cannot be ignored, they're just way too impressive!

Click for the little details you might not notice first time around - all realtime!

**
@Hornet**
This isn't the best demonstration, but it will give you a good idea of how easy it is to bring content into Unreal and actually use it in realtime.  You really don't need to worry about that technical stuff at the end, you can get by without all that, that's really only for people who use it for making games or get highly skilled at it.  I've got by dead easy, I've only used the nodes for basic stuff, and even those are dead easy because their documentation and tutorial videos are extremely good.

It's this easy - Click for video

@Aeilkema
You get all this for less than 20 dollars, yours to keep, and if that new addon for Poser really does allow you to bring content and posable Poser figures into it for an instant render, the enjoyment factor is going to be pretty high.  I'm hoping Shane tells me what I want to hear, because if he does, I'll be buying that new Poser addon so that I can work, set up my lights and render in Unreal's "instant" environment.

Here's an example - Click for demo of lighting setup documentation

Quote - ! **
@Hornet**
This isn't the best demonstration, but it will give you a good idea of how easy it is to bring content into Unreal and actually use it in realtime.  You really don't need to worry about that technical stuff at the end, you can get by without all that, that's really only for people who use it for making games or get highly skilled at it.  I've got by dead easy, I've only used the nodes for basic stuff, and even those are dead easy because their documentation and tutorial videos are extremely good.

It's this easy - Click for video

Yes, nice video, but I am NOT into animation so just how do any of the features help be illustrate a book and and why should Real time rendering matter to me?

Quote - @Hornet
This isn't the best demonstration, but it will give you a good idea of how easy it is to bring content into Unreal and actually use it in realtime.  You really don't need to worry about that technical stuff at the end, you can get by without all that, that's really only for people who use it for making games or get highly skilled at it.  I've got by dead easy, I've only used the nodes for basic stuff, and even those are dead easy because their documentation and tutorial videos are extremely good.

It's this easy - Click for video

Did you seriously see the same vidoe as I did? Did you see how many nodes this guy connected to get something done? While connecting a few nodes is easy, to get the results he wanted, he had to connect tons of nodes, one big clutter of nodes. Unless you have a second screen as he does, this will get a bit too cluttered :) What fun are the basics anyway if you can do some really cool stuff? But to do the real cool stuff, you have to really dig in. Seriously, with all the nodes and variables and things you need to set up, you lost the time you've gained in real-time rendering already.

This is not faster at all then setting up your scene in Poser and render it. Also when you really want to animation in Unreal, you're way beyond basics already. You need to set up your characters, still animate each movement, tell then how to interact with the enviroment and what you want them to do. In the end that will be time consuming.

You make it sound way too easy, since you've scratched the surface yourself. Even with that, be honest, that took quite some time to get done, it's not a matter of mimutes. Once you start animating and bringing in your animated characters the whole easiness is gone and you're way beyond basics..... that will get very complicated and will get way more complicated then what users here now do with Poser and Vue, even those who animate.

Good luck with it and I hope you do understand what you're getting into, nothing easy about it at all once you advance :)

it must take lightyears to set up a thing like that.
But, it does look good.

Nice video's.

Perhaps the best thing coming out of this is a possible technology transfer beteen SM and Unreal.

What I learned most ofthese videos is: The importance of textures and material room setups.
IDL? GC? Ambient? Poser has it all, but not in real time.

I see:

• Good texturing.
• Good material room setups.

But building setups like these?
You need months if not years.

@Hornet
Because you don't have to wait for your render, you're constantly in your render as you work so as soon as you throw in some smoke or particles or lights or bokeh, whatever else, you just position your camera where you want it and you're done, render complete!

That's what attracts me to it as a stills renderer, that, and the fact that it has features even raytracers don't seem to have.  For example the bokeh and abberation effects in Unreal are probably the best I've seen, and they're realtime as well.  You shouldn't let that bunch of nodes scare you because like I said, the way it's designed you can be hidden from that and only ever touch it if you want to do something deep.

The guy in the video is showing it from a game developer point of view, so don't let that scare you.

@aeilkema
Ok, have you thought about it this way...

If you were to load poser content into Unreal, how much more enjoyable is that going to be when you do not have to wait for a render because you're in the render?  When you have live bokeh, DOF, motion blur, smoke, fog, smog, lights, rain, particles, swaying chains, cloth blowing in the wind, all at your command, all movable in a mouseclick?

Remember, Unreal has a marketplace just like Poser and DS does, so it's just as easy to use ready made content in it as it is in Poser or DS.  You don't need to get technical with it if you don't want to.  If a person can load a figure, pose it, throw in a few effects and not have to wait for a render, what's so hard about that?

I haven't found it difficult to do anything I've tried so far and I'm pretty new to it.

Just to give an idea of a small team using it (one person), here's an animation someone made using the old version, all they did is use it as an animation tool, just like Poser or DS.

Click for Dystopia - a budget short animation using even the older version

How long would that take with Poser or DS?

@Vilters
Yup, I think getting it licenced to be used inside the Poser viewport would be amazing and would be the best way to keep ahead of this stuff for Poser.  I'm just dreaming I suppose, but who knows, it's not like Unreal don't want to licence their product out so it just might happen.  Not only that, if Smith Micro don't do it, I'm guessing DAZ might come along and snap it up for the DS viewport instead :-D

Assuming they already haven't in secret.

Oh, you really have no clue about these things do you? That video takes ages to create, did you even read the description? That little project took 6 months!!!! Sorry, but with either Poser or Vue you could do this in 6 months as well, since you don't have to do everything from scratch.

No need to be rude about it, yes I did read the description, and like I said, it's one persons work using the old version.

You just didn't listen to a word I wrote in my previous reply.  Do you think he had to create all that content in order to use it?  Of course he didn't, it's no different to Poser or DS in that respect, you can buy rigged figures, scenes, props, content, throw 'em all together and job done.  In fact it wouldn't surprise me if half the stuff in those scenes started life in the Poser or DS community, it's perfectly possible as they can import this stuff.

Doing it in Unreal the job is done quicker cause you did it in a realtime environment and had to wait for nothing to render, from your first tweak to your final output.  So yes, I do have a clue about what it entails, I'm using it, and it does not entail as much as you seem to think it does.  Poser and DS users thrive on ready built content, and having ready built content in a realtime environment has to be a good thing - especially when it costs less than twenty dollars to buy the licence.

You can't really ignore these things.  You're letting yourself be intimidated by something that really isn't intimidating at all if you read the tutorials and watch their videos, they're very good at teaching their system.

Quote - @Hornet

The guy in the video is showing it from a game developer point of view, so don't let that scare you.

Not scared just can't see the point.  Reminds me of the quote "You can wake up someone who is asleep but not someone who is pretending to be asleep."

Anyway you clearly can't see my point and you are not going to convince me of the worth of a real time renderer for what I do so we will have to agree to disagree.

Moving to lurk mode.

Let's not argue about it guys. 

I posted the link to the Unreal 4 animation because someone on the previous page had said that to get movie quality rendering in real time would cost insane amounts of money for hardware and sofware. So that animation was meant to show what the engine is capable of in real time without all the expensive hardware and software setups. 

It wasn't meant to suggest that one person could create that animation. I don't think one person could create that whole sequence in any program by themselves, at least not in a reasonable amount of time. 

With FBX you can import an entire scene, with animation and everything else you need. Except possibly lighting. I'm not sure how lighting translates over. That may have to be done within the engine itself. I haven't investigated that far yet.

But the whole point is that it's good that Poser finally has FBX. Whether you actually want to use it or not is up to you, but in terms of Poser's longevity I see it as a smart move on SM's part as it would be in their best interest to stay as up to date and relevant with the rest of the software/competition out there as possible. The still render hobby users are not a large enough market to sustain an entire company. The majority of 3D enthusiasts are interested in animation as well as still renders, so anything that makes Poser more appealing to the various needs of 3D artists is a good thing. the 3D/CG industry moves extremely fast and its easy for one app to get steamrolled by it if it doesn't keep up with the latest advancements. 

Everything that can be done in Poser can be done in Unreal or Unity. Still images, animated text, presentations, anything. And it doesn't require knowing how to code. Knowing coding helps of course, but if you can't find a video or tutorial on how to code whatever script you're looking for, then there are a good number of sites out there with free scripts that can be downloaded and plugged into whatever project you're working on. 

For me personally, I've discovered just from the little bit that I've been experimenting, that it's easier to work in Unreal or Unity than it is to work in Poser or DS, and I've been working with Poser for the last 10 years. And I know virtually nothing about coding and I've only been fooling with these engines for a year or two. And that's what is appealing to me about them. I enjoy Poser, and I intend on incorporating my Poser creations into these game engines, if for nothing else than to discover what all is possible with it. So far I'm liking everything I see.

Just a few weeks ago I was asking about Vue in another thread, and was considering buying it. But now that Poser has FBX, I have no use for Vue, as I can do whatever I need in Unity or Unreal, so Vue would be a waste of money, and more of a time sink trying to learn it.

@Hornet
Another one who sounds hurt, don't be!

I pointed out Unreal Engine because I think it's a threat to Poser and DS, I never brought it up to get you to try it.  I've been quietly using it for months without even mentioning it.

In fact, the only time I felt bad about not mentioning it was in Nygtfalls thread when he was talking about Vue.  I was going to mention it as a realtime replacement for Vue, but the concept sounds too alien I thought it best not to go there.  I did mention finding something standalone to create the plants that can then be imported into a program, and guess what, import those plants into Unreal and you can use Unreal's painting tools to paint those plants wherever you like, and again, all in realtime.  When you've placed those plants in real time, you don't have to wait for a render, it's already rendered, cause the render is realtime as well - lol

People don't have to be interested in this thing, but unless you're aware that things like this are real and do exist, you're living behind the times.  I'll be the first to admit that when I first found out about it I felt exactly that, that I were using a workflow way behind the times.

It might not be for you, but personally I'm super pleased I found out about it.

Long replies.  I just wanted to add my two cents to what was being discussed on page 2.

I don't want to 'diss' renderosity, but it is this market that is saturated IMO.  Testing is not quite as good as it should be.  I gave up vending here or any possibility of doing so when I submitted a package and was told 'make it look like this other one we are already selling'.  That one message explained for me so much of what the issue is.  I've sold quite a few copies of that particular package now, without making it look like anything else out there.  

As to when sales come, Ambient (I think that's who said it) is 99% correct in saying that 99% of sales come in the first 3 days.  I think that is primarily due to the market saturation.  Most people don't go through all 500 pages of similar products.  So the newest products sell quickest.  

I do have one product out that has been out for 5 years now though, and I still get sales.  So I'm not sure if with that longevity if the math still holds true.  If you are selling somewhere that cuts off the product after x amount of time, it is probably more likely to be true.  This is basic estimations from my crappy math brain.

As to OP, I do not think the user base is down.  Based on sales personally, I'd say it's up.  However community participation across the board is nose diving.  I think that makes it appear as if users are down.  Maybe they have all gone to facebook and other less 'moderated' forms of communication.  This is a pita you know.  I'm not even 100% sure if I've said anything here that is not allowed or will be deleted.  In that way I am often unlikely to post due to the fact that my time spent trying to participate may just be completely wasted.  I don't really have that much time to just chuck out the window like that.  

Quote - @Hornet
Another one who sounds hurt, don't be!

I pointed out Unreal Engine because I think it's a threat to Poser and DS, I never brought it up to get you to try it.  I've been quietly using it for months without even mentioning it.

In fact, the only time I felt bad about not mentioning it was in Nygtfalls thread when he was talking about Vue.  I was going to mention it as a realtime replacement for Vue, but the concept sounds too alien I thought it best not to go there.  I did mention finding something standalone to create the plants that can then be imported into a program, and guess what, import those plants into Unreal and you can use Unreal's painting tools to paint those plants wherever you like, and again, all in realtime.  When you've placed those plants in real time, you don't have to wait for a render, it's already rendered, cause the render is realtime as well - lol

People don't have to be interested in this thing, but unless you're aware that things like this are real and do exist, you're living behind the times.  I'll be the first to admit that when I first found out about it I felt exactly that, that I were using a workflow way behind the times.

It might not be for you, but personally I'm super pleased I found out about it.

Going to look into it now.  This is the sort of stuff I tend to miss not coming to the forums much.

Cheers Shane, I'm glad at least someone else out there can see it's actually pretty easy to use as a Poser/DS kinda thing, I just hope aeilkema will take note of that because I think he feels a bit intimidated by it, which is a shame, same for Hornet to an extent.

Thanks for the heads-up on FBX, but just one further question on that:

Let's say I exported a Roxie and a V4.  We know they both have different deformation systems inside Poser, so what would happen when it gets into Unreal for posing?  Would the figure adapt a deformation map generated by Unreal  as it get's imported or would it take the individual maps from the figures used in Poser and deform exactly the same when those figures get into Unreal?

@jjroland
Great stuff, as a recommendation I'd say be sure to stick to the "Unreal Engine 4" videos because the older version known as "UDK" is not relevant to this new version, it's quite different, so stick to the "Unreal Engine 4" videos otherwise you'll be learning stuff that might be obsolete.

I only realised that after watching about 6 hours of UDK stuff :-P

Quote - import those plants into Unreal and you can use Unreal's painting tools to paint those plants wherever you like, and again, all in realtime

And what makes that even nicer is, that  one 1,000 polygon tree is still 1,000 polys, whether you have just one copy of that tree in your scene, or 100,000 copies of it, because it's all instanced. I've been hoping Poser would implement instancing, and LOD, for a long time now, but there doesn't seem to be any sign of that coming. 

Yup, it's super crazy amazing at that instancing stuff, it can even do it with physics!

And here's a video for those who wonder how hard it is to set up a scene with premade content:
Piece of cake

Quote -
 I think that makes it appear as if users are down.  Maybe they have all gone to facebook and other less 'moderated' forms of communication.  This is a pita you know.  I'm not even 100% sure if I've said anything here that is not allowed or will be deleted.  In that way I am often unlikely to post due to the fact that my time spent trying to participate may just be completely wasted.  I don't really have that much time to just chuck out the window like that.  

I've never deleted any of your posts. In fact I haven't deleted much of anything in a while now, except for some random spambot posts. I try to only get rid of the hostile stuff that sounds like arguing. Been trying to make it a point for people to express themselves freely on any issue as long as it doesn't devolve into arguing and hostility. haven't seen much of any of that in a good bit now, which is nice.

Quote - I've never deleted any of your posts. In fact I haven't deleted much of anything in a while now, except for some random spambot posts. I try to only get rid of the hostile stuff that sounds like arguing. Been trying to make it a point for people to express themselves freely on any issue as long as it doesn't devolve into arguing and hostility. haven't seen much of any of that in a good bit now, which is nice.

That is really refreshing to know.  I know you have never deleted my posts.  You seem to be a fairly easy going mod, which is also refreshing.

While the images look nice they are not truely real time rendering.  If you watch carefully they show reflective surfaces that only reflect the background and not the object that moves in front of it.  In the elevator you can not see a reflection of the main figure even though it appears to be reflecting other things.  In the one video with the particles they appear to be emitting light however they are not reflected in the surfaces that appear to be reflecting other light sources.  Also I notice a total lack of any type of mirrored surface, all the metal surfaces appear to be matte finished.  To impress me I would like to see mirrors setup to reflect each other and going through a glass surface and have the metal surfaces of the statues reflect something other then a point of light making you believe that it is reflective.  And not just some background image that is prebaked into the scene.

Monty Omn from Rooster Teeth does similar things in near realtime with Poser.  Look up the making of season two of RWBY.  One of the scenes shows what is supose to be a glass floor that reflects the ballroom and all that is is the ballroom inverted and placed below what would have been the glass floor.  Takes no time to render since there is no real reflection going on.

The whole point of games engines is make an image that will fool people into accepting it as good enough to make it believable.  So even though the images look nice they are not the same same thing as a rendered image that trys to portray how the scene would look like using real world type of lights and reflections and all the other pieces that a game engine will fake and gloss over. 

Quote - Long replies.  I just wanted to add my two cents to what was being discussed on page 2.

I don't want to 'diss' renderosity, but it is this market that is saturated IMO.  Testing is not quite as good as it should be.  I gave up vending here or any possibility of doing so when I submitted a package and was told 'make it look like this other one we are already selling'.  That one message explained for me so much of what the issue is.  I've sold quite a few copies of that particular package now, without making it look like anything else out there.  

As to when sales come, Ambient (I think that's who said it) is 99% correct in saying that 99% of sales come in the first 3 days.  I think that is primarily due to the market saturation.  Most people don't go through all 500 pages of similar products.  So the newest products sell quickest.  

I do have one product out that has been out for 5 years now though, and I still get sales.  So I'm not sure if with that longevity if the math still holds true.  If you are selling somewhere that cuts off the product after x amount of time, it is probably more likely to be true.  This is basic estimations from my crappy math brain.

As to OP, I do not think the user base is down.  Based on sales personally, I'd say it's up.  However community participation across the board is nose diving.  I think that makes it appear as if users are down.  Maybe they have all gone to facebook and other less 'moderated' forms of communication.  This is a pita you know.  I'm not even 100% sure if I've said anything here that is not allowed or will be deleted.  In that way I am often unlikely to post due to the fact that my time spent trying to participate may just be completely wasted.  I don't really have that much time to just chuck out the window like that.  

I would say that participation is down across most boards. How many times can you beat the same dead horse?  On the other hand, we may simply be more spread out.  18 months ago, I spend most of my posting time here, with a lingering presence in the DAZ forums - nowadays, If I want to discuss Dusk and Dawn, why would I be here?  My time would be better spent at Hivewire3d.  If I want products that leverage Poser, why be here, when with the exception of Snarly-Gribbly & BagginsBill, the vendors that make extensions & addons to Poser reside over at RDNA.

As far as social media - Urhm..., no - I do not Facebook or any other social media.  Sorry 'Rosity, but I value my privacy.

I don't purchase based on release date - I buy as needed.  And if that product is V4 only, I'll more than likely ignore it unless it is in either Prime or Clearance - I have a 53Gb V4 clothing runtime - don't really need anymore.  I am steadily adding to my Dawn runtime, and other figures are still seeing their runtimes expand.

from cave paintings to now , Art is just an illusion.

@Richard
A few years ago I'd have been in absolute agreement with what you just said due to the way games looked to me, but the abilities of that engine are truly incredible, you can go as deep as you like, you can even create your own shaders from scratch if it lacks something you want.  If you want a mirror in a mirror, you can have it no doubt.

Anyway, I'd hate to start pissing people off, I'm just pointing out what it is and what it can do, and as far as I can tell, there's nothing that can be done in a raytracer that cannot be done in realtime in that engine, some way or some how, and even if there was, someone will add it before too long.

I've found the "official" introduction which shows how easy it is to get to grips with, it's part of a set so if you let it run to the end it will automatically load the next video and the next etc, gradually you learn how easy it all is:

Click for Official Unreal Engine Introduction

Quote - The whole point of games engines is make an image that will fool people into accepting it as good enough to make it believable.  So even though the images look nice they are not the same same thing as a rendered image that trys to portray how the scene would look like using real world type of lights and reflections and all the other pieces that a game engine will fake and gloss over. 

That's a point that people still have a hard time getting. Animation allows you a set of cheats that realistic still rendering does not, and vice versa.

Let's say you rendered a scene where a character is looking across a busy freeway, and you want it to be realistic. One is animated, one is a still (with a high simulated shutter speed, so minimal to no motion blur in the still). Or a shot where a superhero is swooping over a parking lot, same deal.

With the animated one, realistically simulating glass and reflection in the vehicles would be a complete and utter waste of time because that level of detail simply wouldn't be detected anyway by the viewer, so rendering it would be a waste of time. Use fake reflections, and certainly not real glass.

For a realistic still, you can't do that.

That's one of the secrets of game engines: they are primarily designed to make scenes with motion and moving objects look good. But in those games, no matter how realistic, if you stop moving and simply look around in a still scene, the fakeness is immediately apparent. Flat billboards instead of 3D objects. Fake reflections and shadows. Identical instances. Obviously fake matte backgrounds. To paraphrase Monty Oum, they cheat like motherf*ckers when they can, and that's perfectly okay. When the game engine is in motion, great. When it isn't, enh, not so much.

Quote:
*"For a realistic still, you can't do that.
*That's one of the secrets of game engines: they are primarily designed to make scenes with motion and moving objects look good. But in those games, no matter how realistic, if you stop moving and simply look around in a still scene, the fakeness is immediately apparent."

Not in Unreal it isn't, it's perfectly viable for pulling off a photo or competing with a raytraced image.
Feeze this video at 0:50 and drool if you'd like to see proof of how nice it looks when still.

That is one BEAUTIFUL engine!

Quote - Quote:
*"For a realistic still, you can't do that.
*That's one of the secrets of game engines: they are primarily designed to make scenes with motion and moving objects look good. But in those games, no matter how realistic, if you stop moving and simply look around in a still scene, the fakeness is immediately apparent."

Not in Unreal it isn't, it's perfectly viable for pulling off a photo or competing with a raytraced image.
Feeze this video at 0:50 and drool if you'd like to see proof of how nice it looks when still.

Freeze it a few seconds later. Glowing particles that don't cast light (or reflect) where they should.

Now you're just being silly.

If you want those particles to glow, reflect and even effect global lighting, they can, you have complete control over everything!  You get the basics to play around with and if you want to go further, you can switch on more advanced settings, and if you want to go further still, you can start playing around with nodes and make it do pretty much anything you can imagine.

Like I said, it's not just a game engine now, they've opened it up as a multi-use engine.  It's so good they use it for movie visuals so the lack of realism thing is nonsense.  I see that sort of thing on YouTube and it almost always comes from people who use the inferior engines.  It took me less than half a day to compare the engines and Unreal is far and away the best of those engines.  The difference is so clear it's scary that people even bother to argue about it.

It also costs less than $20 for a licence.
I know I couldn't give them mine quick enough!

Hey guys this is starting to sound like an argument so lets drop it back a couple notches. 

There are pros and cons to using game engines, just like there are pros and cons to using any other software package. It's all about what your intentions and needs are. 

This is also getting a bit off-topic focusing on the game engine aspects, when the thread is about Poser's user base shrinking. There are several other game engine threads running right now and it's difficult to keep up with all of them so can we pick one that's on topic and keep all the game engine related stuff to that please?

Thanks

~Shane

Have to agree, Shane, would love to know about that deformation thing on FBX though, I haven't a clue whether the Poser addon will send the deformation maps over or whether Unreal would create one on import.

I see, threads done.  Too bad, was enjoying reading the discussion and different points of view.

I do think there's one major thing missing in this new Poser version..... export to directx (.x). There are still a number of game engines geared at the hobby/semi-pro market that do use that model format. I'm even wondering how you can create something geared at the game market and not include that format.

Quote - I do think there's one major thing missing in this new Poser version..... export to directx (.x). There are still a number of game engines geared at the hobby/semi-pro market that do use that model format. I'm even wondering how you can create something geared at the game market and not include that format.

That is windows only.

So? Still a major game model format. A lot of game engines are windows only..... but they do output games that run under other OS's.

I think FBX is more commonly used by both the hobbyist and pro communities. 

Quote - Did you seriously see the same vidoe as I did? Did you see how many nodes this guy connected to get something done? While connecting a few nodes is easy, to get the results he wanted, he had to connect tons of nodes, one big clutter of nodes. Unless you have a second screen as he does, this will get a bit too cluttered :) What fun are the basics anyway if you can do some really cool stuff? But to do the real cool stuff, you have to really dig in. Seriously, with all the nodes and variables and things you need to set up, you lost the time you've gained in real-time rendering already.

This is not faster at all then setting up your scene in Poser and render it. Also when you really want to animation in Unreal, you're way beyond basics already. You need to set up your characters, still animate each movement, tell then how to interact with the enviroment and what you want them to do. In the end that will be time consuming.

The node system he shows is the controller for the planet code. To set that up in Poser would take just as much, if not even more time, simply because there is no way to animate that way in Poser short of using Python.

Many applications use a very similar setup (networks of nodes) to do what is shown in the video, and I would consider that normal. Houdini is done basically the same way, and I can set something like that up in Houdini far faster than in Poser. Granted Houdini is going to have way more nodes, but that is because everything in Houdini can (and has to) be displayed as nodes in the editor.

Unreal is a very impressive Engine. and the WYSIWYG interface is a prime example of extrememly gifted and talented programmers. They did not add the node setup up because it is slow. That node system makes manually writing code a thing of the past. Yes you will have to get in there once and a while to do things, but your not starting with a white editor screen like your are writing Python for Poser.

As far as animating in a game engine, that is not that hard either. Writing games has gotten extremely easy, compared to what it was years ago. If all you want to do is setup up a fast render, it is even easier.

One thing that really impresses me about Unreal, is that they added a node system to literally drag and drop code into the right place. People want point and click, and that is what a node system is.