Can someone please explain Genesis to me?

(Longtime poser user – not a DS user) I never got into Genesis, I believed the stretching one a mesh too much isn’t a good idea.  And Genesis seemed to be all about stretching one mesh too far.  But now I’ve gotten a free copy of Victoria 6, and before I get started I need to understand this.

I thought everything Genesis was compatible with everything else Genesis.  I thought that was a whole idea.  But now I’m seeing products that are “for Genesis 2 female” or “for Victoria 6,” aren’t those the same thing?

I thought clothing, morphs, and textures for Genesis were supposed to be compatible with all other Genesis figures, what's Genesis 2 male vs. Genesis 2 female?  (I thought the only difference between those two would be a couple of morph targets!)

Are there texture differences between these models? Are morphs incompatible?

And if so, then what is the difference between Genesis and Unimesh/Millennium?

Like I said could someone please explain this to me? 

THX

z

The first Genesis was unisex. M5 and V5 (and all the other Generation 5 characters) were both morphs for Genesis. 

Genesis 2 took it back to separate male and female shapes to make different morphs and joints and such work better, and be easier on content artists. So V6 is a morph for G2F and M6 is a morph for G2M. 

There are utilities to transfer clothing and shapes between Genesis and G2M/G2F. 

If clothing is built for G2F then it will usually work on V6, but you might need to use DS's transfer utility on some things if they weren't made with the V6 morph built in, but it's pretty simple and only takes a few seconds. 

V6 has different UV maps than G2F. Each DAZ character for G2F has her own set of UV maps. If it's a 3rd party character that uses the G2F morphs sets then they will likely just use G2F's base UV maps. Unless the character requires V6 or one of the other official DAZ characters. (Olympia, Lilith, etc). 

The differences between Genesis, G2F/M, and earlier unimesh/millenium figures is the mesh and the rigging tech. They were all based on early versions of the same concept tho - one mesh to create multiple figures from. But the meshes themselves are different from one generation to the next, and Genesis and Genesis 2 don't work natively in Poser the way Generation 4 and previous versions did because of the rigging tech being native to DS. You have to use the DSON utility to import Genesis figures and their content into Poser.  

You can get legacy shapes for all the previous figures (at least back to Generation 3) to use the shapes and older content for the newest version of Genesis.

ETA: Unless you have some questions that are specific to Poser, I'm going to move this thread to the DS forum where you are likely to get more detailed info on Genesis.

AmbientShade has moved this thread from the Poser forum to the DAZ|Studio forum as of Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:59 am.

(Move the thread if you like, I’m trying to use Victoria 6 in poser)

I think I understand this now: Genesis didn’t work (as I predicted).  All that texture stretching was a problem. 

With genesis 2, they went the opposite direction, and back to the M4/V4 unimesh concept (I’m not talking about the rigging) with a single mesh that they distort, and then provide different UV maps to us that compensate for the distortion.

So M6 will take G2M morphs but not textures?

Clothing use usually compatible (or fixable) right?

Olympia, Lilith, Victoria 6 are ALL different UV maps?  (what a mess)

What about Steph 6 and David 6, to they take V6 and M6 maps?

My real question is that textures: textures are going to be incompatible across all of these characters? Am I right?

I will follow this thread until I am brave enough to try Genesis once again in Poser. The Genesis figures are more attractive, but I like the Poser software better.

Quote - I think I understand this now: Genesis didn’t work (as I predicted).  All that texture stretching was a problem. 

With genesis 2, they went the opposite direction, and back to the M4/V4 unimesh concept (I’m not talking about the rigging) with a single mesh that they distort, and then provide different UV maps to us that compensate for the distortion.

So M6 will take G2M morphs but not textures?

M6 is a morph of G2M. G2M is the base figure. M6 has his own UV maps, and when you load M6 his UV maps load onto G2M automatically in DS. 

Quote - Clothing use usually compatible (or fixable) right?Olympia, Lilith, Victoria 6 are ALL different UV maps?  (what a mess)

What about Steph 6 and David 6, to they take V6 and M6 maps?

There is no David 6 yet. Not sure if there will be at this point.

You can use any map of any character on the appropriate Genesis 2 model (male and female respectively). So if you wanted to use V6 maps on the Steph 6 body shape, you can do that. The different UVs may show some stretching in some areas if the maps don't correspond with the body shape. I haven't noticed any problems so far, but I don't have a lot of genesis characters. I have M6 and M5.

You can also get a utility that will transfer UVs from M4/V4 to G2M/F. 

However, if you're porting the Genesis characters over to Poser then you will have to port the figure with the maps you want to use in Poser, as Poser does not currently have a way for you to switch UV maps at will, the way DS does. 

Quote - I think I understand this now: Genesis didn’t work (as I predicted).  All that texture stretching was a problem. 

This is incorrect. Genesis does work and because of how the mesh was designed it can create small and large meshes, adults and children. Different UVs are used for custom characters as well as being optimized for certain shapes; but texture stretching wasn't a major issue as you could interchange textures among the shapes. Genesis 1 is mostly used now for creatures and Genesis 2 is for male and female figures.

Quote -
With genesis 2, they went the opposite direction, and back to the M4/V4 unimesh concept (I’m not talking about the rigging) with a single mesh that they distort, and then provide different UV maps to us that compensate for the distortion.

This is incorrect as well.

Genesis 2 has a base female and male shape to have for gender-specific weight maps, rigging and allows content creators to make clothing for a gender-specific shapes such as bras and dresses, which were difficult to do because the base genesis character did not have breasts. Texture stretching was not a reason for Genesis 2. When you design a mesh properly, whether it's a figure or an outfit, you will not have major issues with texture stretching. 

Quote -
So M6 will take G2M morphs but not textures?

M6 is based on Genesis 2 male so morphs and textures (provided it has the supported UV) will work.

Quote -
Clothing use usually compatible (or fixable) right?

Clothing will fit figures for that generation: Genesis 1 clothing will morph to fit each figure (though there may be some stretching or clinging in the breast area), Genesis 2 will work with morphs from the respective base figure... So clothing for the G2F will fit V6, Olympia, Lilith, etc. The clothing will fit between the male and female using auto fit or using DAZ's Cross Figure tool. Genesis 1 clothing will fit Genesis 2 figures using Autofit as well.

NOTE: Autofit is a DS feature. For converted clothing to work in Poser, you would have to use DS to convert and save it, then create the companion files for it to work in Poser.  There are a few articles around that show how to do it, but if you don't want to use DS, then you have to settle for only new clothing. You will probably buy high heel shoes regardless because of how they convert. Flat shoes and boots generally convert better. Dress conversion may need one of Sickleyield's utility available at DAZ.

Some of the DS tutorials contain content that you can install and use as well.

Quote -
Olympia, Lilith, Victoria 6 are ALL different UV maps?  (what a mess)

What about Steph 6 and David 6, to they take V6 and M6 maps?

Yes, because you may buy or use only one figure and not the others. Also the UV is optimized for that character. Keep in mind these are considered separate characters, not morphs so they have individual UVs (and adjusted rigging), but the Genesis tech allows you to swap UVs between charcters or use UVs from previous generations (like V4 or F5, provided you have the UVs from add on products), so you can reuse what you have, though it will not be 100% compatible.

Quote -My real question is that textures: textures are going to be incompatible across all of these characters? Am I right?

No, see above.

Hi Male... (?)  (M3?) dia?

You seem a little defensive, and the last thing I want to do is start some kind of flame war.  But it sounds to me like you’re telling me I’m wrong, and then agreeing with me.

The “the one mesh fits all”/ “one UV map fits all” original concept of Genesis (one), that I read in that press release,  didn’t work (for humans) that’s why they came up with Genesis II, (male and female ) with custom UV maps, you can call them “optimized,” I’ll call them “corrected for distortion.” Same thing. One mesh, several UV maps.  Just like M4/V4/Freak4.

Granted: there have been massive improvements in rigging.

But the upshot is I can try to use different textures (of the same Genesis generation) and they may, or may not, work, or be a little bit distorted  -- Just likeM4/V4/Freak4.

I have no idea what you mean by “When you design a mesh properly, whether it's a figure or an outfit, you will not have major issues with texture stretching.”

When you distort a mesh, (make some parts bigger and other parts smaller) the texture will be equally distorted, unless you are using some kind of a procedural, universally-scaled texture.  When distorted to extremes, the distortion will be extreme.  There is no “designing it properly” to avoid this - sorry. (even with "Genesis tech")

So like I said, I think I get it .

Thanks guys,

z

Quote - Hi Male... (?)  (M3?) dia?

You seem a little defensive, and the last thing I want to do is start some kind of flame war.  But it sounds to me like you’re telling me I’m wrong, and then agreeing with me.

I'm not defensive. Your assumptions were incorrect. You said the reason for genesis 2 was because of texture stretching. Your quote again:

Quote - I think I understand this now: Genesis didn’t work (as I predicted).  All that texture stretching was a problem.** **

That is incorrect and tries to assert opinion as fact. The reasons for Genesis 2 is for the gender-specific things that were hard to obtain in Genesis 1. Content easier to create with Genesis 2, the rigging and weightmaps are gender specific as well.

Quote -
The “the one mesh fits all”/ “one UV map fits all” original concept of Genesis (one), that I read in that press release,  didn’t work (for humans) that’s why they came up with Genesis II, (male and female ) with custom UV maps, you can call them “optimized,” I’ll call them “corrected for distortion.” Same thing. One mesh, several UV maps.  Just like M4/V4/Freak4.

One of the advantages of Genesis was the ability to use multiple UVs on the same mesh, which you could not do with previous generations. This allows you to use older textures such as M4, or create new ones such as the Hitomi character. It's not the same as Gen 4 as they had one UV and one rigging per characters.  You could not swap out another UV for any of the Gen4 characters or adjust the rigging  in them. Gen4 was derived from a common mesh, but then they went into separate characters. M4/F4/H4 shared one UV and rigging, V4/A4/S4 shared one UV and rigging.. then they used single-axis scaling to make them bigger or smaller so that it worked in Poser.  The Gen4 characters also contained some dials that only worked in DS because they used tri-axis scaling, such as arm length.

What?

We could always change the UV maps associated with an OBJ file with tools like UVMapper, or Objaction Mover.  Those tools go back to the 90s! There’s nothing new there.

You never wanted to do that because nonstandard UV maps were a problem, and a standardized UV maps had distortion problems.  This obviously is still the case.

The original “one size fits all” Genesis (one)  UV map idea failed.  Now we have a DAZ creating official nonstandard (Sorry, "optimized") UV maps for Olivia and Lilith. Just like the difference between the V4 and M4 textures;  They sometimes work together, but not always.

And again I’m not talking about the rigging.

But here if this helps:
Yes, you are totally right, DAZ never made a mistake, DS is better than Poser and Genesis (TM) represents a massive advance in computer science.

(just not one I’m going to use)

z

(geez, I really wish that guy hadn't moved my post to the DS forum)

Quote -
What? We could always change the UV maps associated with an OBJ file with tools like UVMapper, or Objaction Mover.  Those tools go back to the 90s! There’s nothing new there.

And you still would end up with one UV for that obj. Those tools you mentioned can extract that one UV or replace it, but you still are working with on UV. Genesis allows mulitple UVs on the fly, so you're speaking of two different things.

Quote - You never wanted to do that because nonstandard UV maps were a problem, and a standardized UV maps had distortion problems.  This obviously is still the case.

If there is distortion it's not to the effect that you're inferring. Most of the distortion came from shoehorning the Gen4 UVs to Genesis, since Gen4 had more polygons. However there wasn't an issue with textures made for genesis UVs. It also allowed for other characters to have specific UVs for their characters as well.

Quote - The original “one size fits all” Genesis (one)  UV map idea failed. 

Genesis actually three or four UVs that it shipped with, so you're incorrect with that. Each new character that presented had their own UV, and the same is done with Genesis 2. So there was never a "one size fits all" UV.  Genesis 2 dealt more with rigging and separate weightmaps which is the main difference are refusing to recognize. You wanted to learn the difference between the two, I'm telling you but you think it's something different... which is incorrect.

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Now we have a DAZ creating official nonstandard (Sorry, "optimized") UV maps for Olivia and Lilith. Just like the difference between the V4 and M4 textures;  They sometimes work together, but not always.

Again, each Genesis character has had their own UV (except for the teens that were created by Thorne). That's been the norm since the beginning of the Genesis Line. V5 had her own, S5 had one, M5 had one, D5 had one, F5 had one. If you didn't buy any characters, then you used either the M4, V4, or Genesis base UV. The default was V4 uv, and you could switch it to another without using UV mapper, which you couldn't use anyway because Genesis does not use obj files.

Quote - And again I’m not talking about the rigging.

And you're missing the most important reasons for the switch to Genesis 2.

Quote - But here if this helps:
Yes, you are totally right, DAZ never made a mistake, DS is better than Poser and Genesis (TM) represents a massive advance in computer science.

(just not one I’m going to use)

z

1. every company isn't perfect, but should try to do better 2) Use whatever tool you want to use, just make sure you have the correct information instead of incorrect assumptions and 3) well, Genesis did win an award for Software Innovation of the year back in 2011 from 3DWorld ;) 

Quote -
(geez, I really wish that guy hadn't moved my post to the DS forum)

Well, did you want information or start yet another one of those fights in the Poser forum that happens about every few days? You know with incorrect information so they feel good about their app and keep people from trying anything? Looks like you got information instead of a "DAZ sucks" thread. Sorry if you didn't get what you wanted. Feel free to return to the Poser forum if you don't want anymore information. I'm sure they're over there fighting about DAZ/Genesis now. ;)

EDIT: ... and they are...

have a nice day

Genesis, Genesis 2 Female, Genesis 2 Male, DAZ Dragon 3 and DAZ Horse 2 are Tri-Ax TM Weightmapped Sub-D Figures using Open Sub-Div for the Mesh. They are weightmapped on each rotation axis plus have the ability to use both scale and bulge maps. The joint centers and endpoints are animatable, and the figures are each capable of having multiple UV sets, which can be changed on the fly and changed for parts of the figure, as well as for the entire figure. 

The technology also allows for Geografting (Adding, or even removing, mesh directly to the figure), and HD Morphs (Animatable morphs that differ based on Subdivision resolution.) 

The combination allows for extreme changes in the base figure without the need to have an entirely new figure. 

What exactly did you want explained?