Carraraists

There may be more of you asking for changes (improvements, etc) in Carrara than you think.

I stopped posting over in the Daz forums quite some time ago. Maybe the odd post here or there.

I recently posted to a forum about Stonemasons Pool House. It's a FANTASTIC set that looks awesome, but it doesn't have Poser files, just DUF files. A disturbing trend, especially from Stonemason, who has been offering Poser files until recently.

http://www.daz3d.com/the-pool-house

I posted a VERY friendly short post complimenting the Stoneman's talent and telling him to keep us Carrara8 (and earlier)/Poser users in mind because we use his stuff.

Someone else came in and agreed with me.

Today, my post and any others in support of Poser files were removed!!

There could be an army of people who want what you want.

There could be an army of people with the same problems/concerns as you might have, but the good old "deleted posts' always keep the truth hidden from view.

So, just because you don't SEE support for Carrara or whatever issues you may be having...

DON'T believe it doesn't exist.

Stonemason makes loads of cash for DAZ. I suspect the days of DAZ and the Poser team playing nice together are drawing to a close. Figure animation has come to most software now so, Poser isn't the only game in town for easy figure animation anymore. Consequently, a mutually rewarding arrangement with exclusivity makes good business sense for the hobby market - which is DAZ's market. That is how business is done. 

The DAZ advances in Studio and Genesis are very good and their product ecosystem is good too. For users that don't want to make content, and considering Studio is free since it's a loss-leader for product sales, I'm sure the strategy is to focus on Hobby and let Poser continue it's integration with Pro software. 

But, these are just my opinions based upon watching things over time. I may be over-caffinated. 

Carrara has fallen into such decrepitude that even some newer Poser contents might not work in it. Here are 2 examples of Poser contents that make Carrara crash right out:

Okmarius and PowerTown.

I believe it that C8.5 can load the .duf files (I don' t have it), therefore the users of Carrara are not forgotten.
What is not normal, it is to remove these posts, I don't understand the reason.
The potential buyers must be informed all the same of this change and thus upgrade their soft if they want to continue with these products.
When Carrara won't work with the Poser files, that will be the end for a lot of users.
Business is buisiness !

..........and then there is G3F/V7

Carrara has fallen into such decrepitude that even some newer Poser contents might not work in it. Here are 2 examples of Poser contents that make Carrara crash right out:

Okmarius and PowerTown.

Uh oh, Thanks for the heads up Doc.

I already own Powertown, but I never loaded it up, since I have never had trouble with Powerage products.

Are you running C8.5 or C8 (or earlier)?

I believe it that C8.5 can load the .duf files (I don' t have it), therefore the users of Carrara are not forgotten.
What is not normal, it is to remove these posts, I don't understand the reason.
The potential buyers must be informed all the same of this change and thus upgrade their soft if they want to continue with these products.
When Carrara won't work with the Poser files, that will be the end for a lot of users.
Business is buisiness !

Dudu Duf format only works in C8.5 or newer.

Anyone still running C8 (or earlier) cannot use DUF files.

The nice thing was many vendors offered Poser files that worked like a champ in earlier versions of Carrara and Poser 9 (and earlier)

I work with C8 because the Genesis system doesn't interest me.
I'm not either a purchaser of all that is on the market, Carrara (and other programs associated) works well for what I make.
I believe that it is a normal evolution, I simply takes for example the .3DS objects, now it is .MAX and Carrara doesn't want it.
The users of old versions of 3DS MAX cannot use  .MAX files either since they didn't exist at the time of the release of their version.
As in all the fields, it is the law of the market, you adapt or you remain with your old system (as long as Windows or Mac accept your old program).
But you are not the only one to hanging with what you control well, I'm with you and much of others users too !

Duf format only works in C8.5 or newer.

Anyone still running C8 (or earlier) cannot use DUF files.

The nice thing was many vendors offered Poser files that worked like a champ in earlier versions of Carrara and Poser 9 (and earlier)

I am using C8.5 and have had trouble with DUF files - they might load, but the movable parts, e.g. doors, don't work.  I haven't tried very many, but I avoid DUF files altogether now.  The Poser format files almost always work seamlessly, and I'd rather create short animations than wrestle with compatibility problems.  I strongly doubt that DAZ is working to improve Carrara, and suspect that the programmers who could do it are long gone.

@ tsarist:

I run 8.1.1.12. I upgraded to 8.5.x.x, but quickly switched back to 8.1.1.12.To me this is the last good known version of Carrara.

Carraraists

There may be more of you asking for changes (improvements, etc) in Carrara than you think.

I stopped posting over in the Daz forums quite some time ago. Maybe the odd post here or there.

I recently posted to a forum about Stonemasons Pool House. It's a FANTASTIC set that looks awesome, but it doesn't have Poser files, just DUF files. A disturbing trend, especially from Stonemason, who has been offering Poser files until recently.

http://www.daz3d.com/the-pool-house

I posted a VERY friendly short post complimenting the Stoneman's talent and telling him to keep us Carrara8 (and earlier)/Poser users in mind because we use his stuff.

Someone else came in and agreed with me.

Today, my post and any others in support of Poser files were removed!!

There could be an army of people who want what you want.

There could be an army of people with the same problems/concerns as you might have, but the good old "deleted posts' always keep the truth hidden from view.

So, just because you don't SEE support for Carrara or whatever issues you may be having...

DON'T believe it doesn't exist.

Stonemason announced his dropping support for Poser a while back, so those posts (and there were a lot of them) were derailing his thread with requests, demands, and general whining about wanting poser support despite what was said and ask he address it yet again, which was a TOS violation and were removed. So it's probably not a good idea to go into his commercial threads asking for Poser support in the future, because that decision is final. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow after all the years of him making sets with poser support, but it has been something he's wanted to do for a while. So if you want to use his sets you can either use the obj import or the duf.

Stonemason announced his dropping support for Poser a while back, so those posts (and there were a lot of them) were derailing his thread with requests, demands, and general whining about wanting poser support despite what was said and ask he address it yet again, which was a TOS violation and were removed. So it's probably not a good idea to go into his commercial threads asking for Poser support in the future, because that decision is final. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow after all the years of him making sets with poser support, but it has been something he's wanted to do for a while. So if you want to use his sets you can either use the obj import or the duf.

I don't consider people asking for Poser support or whatever "whining." I used to own a boutique and if a customer came in asking for something we no longer carried, I didn't accuse them of whining and throw them out of the store.

As I said earlier, I don't go over there that often anymore (for a number of good reasons) and I don't read every post and most certainly didn't see any posts where Stonemason said "Fu@k off" to Poser users. 

So please forgive me that I don't camp out over in the forums and read every single post that everyone makes.

Don't worry, I won't go over to his threads and ask for a bloody thing.

Nor will I go over to his shop and spend a penny of my "TOS violating money."

Stonemason announced his dropping support for Poser a while back, so those posts (and there were a lot of them) were derailing his thread with requests, demands, and general whining about wanting poser support despite what was said and ask he address it yet again, which was a TOS violation and were removed. So it's probably not a good idea to go into his commercial threads asking for Poser support in the future, because that decision is final. I know it's a bitter pill to swallow after all the years of him making sets with poser support, but it has been something he's wanted to do for a while. So if you want to use his sets you can either use the obj import or the duf.

I don't consider people asking for Poser support or whatever "whining." I used to own a boutique and if a customer came in asking for something we no longer carried, I didn't accuse them of whining and throw them out of the store.

As I said earlier, I don't go over there that often anymore (for a number of good reasons) and I don't read every post and most certainly didn't see any posts where Stonemason said "Fu@k off" to Poser users. 

So please forgive me that I don't camp out over in the forums and read every single post that everyone makes.

Don't worry, I won't go over to his threads and ask for a bloody thing.

Nor will I go over to his shop and spend a penny of my "TOS violating money."

No, not everyone was whining but some were. And on the subject of telling people to "F@ck off", this is a business, so keep your emotions in check. The fact that Poser users weren't spending money, resulted in ending support. No one is trying to be evil with you, so don't take it personal. 

No, not everyone was whining but some were. And on the subject of telling people to "F@ck off", this is a business, so keep your emotions in check. The fact that Poser users weren't spending money, resulted in ending support. No one is trying to be evil with you, so don't take it personal. 

It's kind of funny that people are saying Poser users aren't spending money when there were a number of posts asking for support in that thread and I got a few PMs from people who voiced their support (after the posts started coming down). I'm a Carrara user, but sometimes, DS files wouldn't show up in the Carrara Browser, so I started using Poser files and they show up, no problem. I know many other Carrara users who do the same.

I was grateful for the OBJs and bought Streets of London from Stonemason because they were offered. The problem is they load up in the middle of the screen untextured. There are a million props and textures that would all have to be added manually AND they would have to be manually organised and textured in the scene. So basically, it was worthless.

We need someone "derailing" threads (which really wasn't my intention) so Daz knows were alive and there are problems. Those users that wrote in DO spend money

PS There is no TOS service violation for asking someone for a product or modification to a product.

No, not everyone was whining but some were. And on the subject of telling people to "F@ck off", this is a business, so keep your emotions in check. The fact that Poser users weren't spending money, resulted in ending support. No one is trying to be evil with you, so don't take it personal. 

It's kind of funny that people are saying Poser users aren't spending money when there were a number of posts asking for support in that thread and I got a few PMs from people who voiced their support (after the posts started coming down). I'm a Carrara user, but sometimes, DS files wouldn't show up in the Carrara Browser, so I started using Poser files and they show up, no problem. I know many other Carrara users who do the same.

I was grateful for the OBJs and bought Streets of London from Stonemason because they were offered. The problem is they load up in the middle of the screen untextured. There are a million props and textures that would all have to be added manually AND they would have to be manually organised and textured in the scene. So basically, it was worthless.

We need someone "derailing" threads (which really wasn't my intention) so Daz knows were alive and there are problems. Those users that wrote in DO spend money

PS There is no TOS service violation for asking someone for a product or modification to a product.

1. A few people asking for Poser support in a forum post does not equal Poser users making up the total buyers actually buying product.  It comes down to the effort to make poser files vs the return a PA gets. Obviously the return is no longer there. As I said business is business. 2) Check your downloads again for the mtl files that should be in the products. I don't know much about the development plans of Carrara, I have 8.5 but to be honest, I haven't loaded it up to do much. With everything going on with DAZ, it's obvious now that their flagship product is DS and everything is going to revolve around that and Genesis 3. Also there is some interesting things going on with their sister company Morph3D as well. I think everyone knows Carrara exists, but it's never been a flagship product and definitely not a money maker. If you're looking for content, it has modeling capabilities, you may have to learn to use that portion of the application if you're not getting what you need.

2. Unfortunately commercial threads is not the place to ask for Poser files en masse. Commerical threads are promotional for a PA, not product requests, thus a TOS violation... especially when support for a particular platform has ended.

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

The work involved for building and a set of materials, yes. Keep in mind you're doing the work twice, and maybe getting less than 1/5 the return.

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

The work involved for building and a set of materials, yes. Keep in mind you're doing the work twice, and maybe getting less than 1/5 the return.

It really shouldn't be a big deal to at LEAST fix the OBJs so they load up in the right place WITH the textures loaded on. If making a proper Poser version is so hard, this shouldn't be a big inconvenience. 

1. A few people asking for Poser support in a forum post does not equal Poser users making up the total buyers actually buying product.  It comes down to the effort to make poser files vs the return a PA gets. Obviously the return is no longer there. As I said business is business. We have no idea how many people actually want Poser/Carrara support, because Daz just yanks down any posts asking for it. I know I saw some people asking for it in the thread before Daz realised that there might be legitimate amount of people and started yanking the posts down. 

I also got a few people who didn't post PM me because they were lurking and saw my request and agreed.

We could have a million people wanting it and Daz would still say there wasn't enough support.

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

The work involved for building and a set of materials, yes. Keep in mind you're doing the work twice, and maybe getting less than 1/5 the return.

It really shouldn't be a big deal to at LEAST fix the OBJs so they load up in the right place WITH the textures loaded on. If making a proper Poser version is so hard, this shouldn't be a big inconvenience. 

Having untextured OBJs at the origin position is a requirement from DAZ Quality Assurance (probably because it can create problems down the line and for additional functionality).  I don't think big stores (like Stonemason) base their decisions on a number of forum posts. They have access to a lot of sales data and I'm guessing that is where they see the problem.

And again, DAZ leaves it up to PAs whether or not they want to support additional programs (though Poser used to be a requirement, it isn't anymore I think). Everybody makes up their own mind about that.

PS: Are they OBJs still that way when you export them out of DS?

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

The work involved for building and a set of materials, yes. Keep in mind you're doing the work twice, and maybe getting less than 1/5 the return. I worked in the spectacle and I had also a company, I learned you can't expect to win every game, but the main thing is to keep your customers !
Today is a day, tomorrow is another day…

Perhaps a stupid question but, is it so difficult to make a Poser version ?

The work involved for building and a set of materials, yes. Keep in mind you're doing the work twice, and maybe getting less than 1/5 the return. I worked in the spectacle and I had also a company, I learned you can't expect to win every game, but the main thing is to keep your customers !
Today is a day, tomorrow is another day…

There lies the problem. When they no longer buy, they are no longer your customer. However, those people have been replaced with DS customers, enough so that it makes up the difference when that support is dropped. I think that's the part people don't understand. One PA put it best: basically he said when a PA has to support Iray, 3delight and Poser, that becomes unsustainable as far as support. So the weakest link was dropped. Hopefully .duf support can be ramped up for Carrara, but I would not hope to see an increase in Poser files from PAs when they are making money from products that no longer support that platform. You can debate all you like, but the reality now is if you want to get products into carrara, you'll most likely have to install DS and export.

 Gah, I just had an epiphany of Daz's intention....

It's just another way of choking the Poser vine at the base.

Theory: even if Daz was selling a lot of things that were for Poser (eg Stonemason's products), they could take the loss from the reduced income at the moment, and balance that with increased future income after they have removed Poser from the market. 

At the moment Poser is a Daz studio's 'only' competitor (apart from Carrara) in that they traditionally over lap in the same commercial fields.

Poser products being reasonably cheap keep Daz's product prices slightly in check. 

Of course the fact that Gen 3 being 'incompatible' with Poser , and Gen 2 being a pita to use with Poser (from all reports) supports the idea of squeezing poser out of business.

And it looks like Carrara could be collateral damage.

Just a theory...... lots of holes in it maybe... 

 Gah, I just had an epiphany of Daz's intention....

It's just another way of choking the Poser vine at the base.

Theory: even if Daz was selling a lot of things that were for Poser (eg Stonemason's products), they could take the loss from the reduced income at the moment, and balance that with increased future income after they have removed Poser from the market. 

At the moment Poser is a Daz studio's 'only' competitor (apart from Carrara) in that they traditionally over lap in the same commercial fields.

Poser products being reasonably cheap keep Daz's product prices slightly in check. 

Of course the fact that Gen 3 being 'incompatible' with Poser , and Gen 2 being a pita to use with Poser (from all reports) supports the idea of squeezing poser out of business.

And it looks like Carrara could be collateral damage.

 

Just a theory...... lots of holes in it maybe... 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, big holes. We're talking about PAs expenses, and they're no way deep enough to support the speculation you're offering. It's very simple, if the return on investment to make something that also works in poser is not there, it is not made. There's no big conspiracy.

 Beg to differ. I'm afraid it's not so simple.

The model I am offering happens on a daily basis all over the world. Take a small loss now for a large future gain.

Anyway, as far as Daz's intentions,  it's speculation as you said. Unless you have a keyhole window into Daz's leadership.

If you do it's only speculation on my part ;)

If you don't, well it's speculation on both our parts... ...

In that case I am afraid the theory still stands ;) 

 Beg to differ. I'm afraid it's not so simple.

The model I am offering happens on a daily basis all over the world. Take a small loss now for a large future gain.

Anyway, as far as Daz's intentions,  it's speculation as you said. Unless you have a keyhole window into Daz's leadership.

If you do it's only speculation on my part ;)

If you don't, well it's speculation on both our parts... ...

In that case I am afraid the theory still stands ;) 

You know that I sell over at DAZ right? Do you sell at DAZ? Didn't think so. We are not DAZ's employees. They broker our products. If we don't offer them, DAZ can't sell them. If what the people that make the products can't make a good enough return to make things Poser-compatible, then they aren't made. Period.

Now your speculation make hold a tiny bit of water when the company makes and sells the product, but not when the company splits the sales with the PAs. PAs work a lot of of hours making products, and sometimes those products sell well, sometimes like crap depending on customer demand. So basically the speculation people make comes them not knowing simple supply/demand models or even how businesses are run.. so honestly these types of posts are basically a bunch of eye-rolling, non-logical rants that aren't based in reality. DAZ isn't some mafia that puts cut off dead horse heads in vendor's beds that won't conform. Things succeed or fail because of what customers, you know the ones that live outside the confines of the forums, are willing to buy and use. If those customers are opening their wallet for genesis and .duf-based content, that's what is made. If they aren't buying enough of the Poser-based content, then vendors won't make it. Supply and demand, not magic nor nefarious schemes.

You know that I sell over at DAZ right? Do you sell at DAZ? Didn't think so.

sorry mate

didnt realise you were so 'touchy' 

stay well, good luck with daz, 

You know that I sell over at DAZ right? Do you sell at DAZ? Didn't think so.

sorry mate

didnt realise you were so 'touchy' 

stay well, good luck with daz, 

Touchy has nothing to do with it. More people should spend their time getting their facts straight before spouting these types of illogical arguments. Seriously.

"so keep your emotions in check."

Lol. Yes sir.

Nudge nudge wink wink.

@ Male_M3dia.

It is clear that these posts are not directed at you personally and that we see that in a more general way.
It should be well understood that the users of Carrara are much more dependant of Poser than DAZ Studio (in general).
The last evolutions in this market show that DAZ3D wants to make disappear the compatibility with Poser and impose their own format.
I have another question: as a Pa and for only one product, do you have an exclusiveness with DAZ3D or are you free to propose this product to other companies ?

@ Male_M3dia.

It is clear that these posts are not directed at you personally and that we see that in a more general way.
It should be well understood that the users of Carrara are much more dependant of Poser than DAZ Studio (in general).
The last evolutions in this market show that DAZ3D wants to make disappear the compatibility with Poser and impose their own format.
I have another question: as a Pa and for only one product, do you have an exclusiveness with DAZ3D or are you free to propose this product to other companies ?

First, I can sell at any store I wish. I used to sell here and I still have things at poseraddicts. Things I sell at DAZ can only be sold there but that's ok as I make more money than I've made at other stores. I also have way more than one product; just a brief glance and I counted at least 48 at DAZ.. ;) As to the first part of your post, there is a thing called innovation that it seems people haven't heard of. Companies, especially software companies, are supposed to improve their product and make it easier for certain tasks to be done. DAZ did that with the Genesis platform as well as the DSON format to support it. The format allows things such as scene portability and importing morphs much easier than what could be done with the poser format. That said, this was offered to Smith Micro and they didn't want it. Years later, the figures and format has proven very successful; so it's not like SM couldn't have the access to the tech themselves so your assertion that DAZ wanted to make their products incompatible with Poser is very incorrect and beats the very dead horse that has been laying in the field for years. Also, it's not like DAZ kept SM from improving their software either particularly on the figure development front.

What I do see is DAZ Studio is their flagship application right now, and that brings in the money. Not many products are being made for Carrara, far less than years before, and that's really going determine what happens with the program. Not from DAZ itself, but actual vendor support.

I see the DAZ propaganda machine is still hard at work.

 Ha ha yes, trouble is, Carrara users are more intelligent than the usual audience - dont know why they cant get their head around that.

But of course, you have to understand that I Daz tells their PA's everything about their business plans ;) 

Keep that under your hat Man .

Good to see you back.

Well this started with an add in my Email from DAZ about G3. Downloaded the newest Studio, then tried it in the Newest carrara. That train wrecked. Did I get mad? Did I get sad? Did I cry? No, I thought "typical DAZ".

I'm starting to have my feelings hurt.  I never get anything from DAZ.  People talk about polls, version updates, and now there's a G3 email ... I've used Carrara for many years, purchased 1600 products from DAZ, and never get anything.   ... Of course, I have been criticizing DAZ's handling of Carrara for most of those years, maybe there's a connection.  And I do get a lot of nasty comments from DAZ defenders, so its not all bad.

Oh no, I've never criticized DAZ for it's handling of carrara ;)

It's an option in your DAZ account to receive sales mails that I have never turned off.

Yes the daz apologists/white knights/attack dogs are always out in force should you say anything bad about daz, even if it's true

DAZ hasn't supported Carrara very well. Mac users went about a year without a version that worked with OS X. We paid big money for Carrara.

I gave up on Poser years ago. It's OK if DAZ Studio & Carrara can play well together. DAZ should be sure to have Genesis 3 compatibility with Carrara.

There are so much things to make in Carrara without Genesis, why have this obsession to want to use this generation of characters who do not have the quality of the older generations.
When I see the images made in DS, I find that they are really synthetic compared to what one does in Carrara.
Génésis, it's the plastic generation !

 yes my post about the posts being 1984'd on Daz just got 1984'd. Their Choice .

 yes my post about the posts being 1984'd on Daz just got 1984'd. Their Choice .

That's so Orwellian!

There are so much things to make in Carrara without Genesis, why have this obsession to want to use this generation of characters who do not have the quality of the older generations.
When I see the images made in DS, I find that they are really synthetic compared to what one does in Carrara.
Génésis, it's the plastic generation !

Agreed. Genesis is not the only figure out there. As a matter of fact, there are many figures out there that can be used in Carrara with no problem.

 yes my post about the posts being 1984'd on Daz just got 1984'd. Their Choice .

Yeah, Daz does tend to take a strong dislike to people telling the truth.  Kinda makes you feel like Emmanuel Goldstein

There are so much things to make in Carrara without Genesis, why have this obsession to want to use this generation of characters who do not have the quality of the older generations.
When I see the images made in DS, I find that they are really synthetic compared to what one does in Carrara.
Génésis, it's the plastic generation !

 

 

 

 

Agreed. Genesis is not the only figure out there. As a matter of fact, there are many figures out there that can be used in Carrara with no problem.  

 

 

 

Oh, who cares about Gen 3? ;) But I would like Carrara to be improved so it had  eg - a good toon render settings etc like Poser. And I'd expect it to have a cloth sim like Poser Blender etc. Especially seeing one guy working by himself is currently doing the cloth sim plug in thing (over on Poser forum). Daz is quite welcome to shoot itself in the foot by reducing possible gen 3 and collateral sales by not supporting Carrara. As I said before, I think it's all in the big plane to squeeze Poser off the planet.

 

Am I the only one that notices how much more expensive daz content is than it used to be? Not saying it's not worth it ;)

 yes my post about the posts being 1984'd on Daz just got 1984'd. Their Choice .

Yeah, Daz does tend to take a strong dislike to people telling the truth.  Kinda makes you feel like Emmanuel Goldstein

 

 

 

I wasn't hurt by being 1984'd  ;) I wasn't upset. ;) I was just disappointed in Daz.