Moan.

Primorge!!!

Hehehe - I'd know that moan anywhere :-D
Good to see you back man!

Several things I have problems understanding.

It's a preview, not an artwork.  It's intended to show some of the capability of Cycles, not be a work of art ready for publication.

Cycles is an improvement, but "If it won't do XYZ forget it."  Okay, for those, forget it and the rest of us will probably be quite happy with any improvement.

It's an in progress, and probably won't have everything everyone wants, and probably won't cater to the whims of the few with "refined taste".  Or, those that can eat VIetnamese fish sauce.  Or maybe lutefisk.  As long as the rest of us get some advancement, ask us if we care what the few want.  We don't.

OR, in other words, how about we wait to see what's finally released before we start slamming everything that doesn't look like it was done in Max, because it doesn't look like max?  If you think you have to have that kind of result, then give up and spend the money for Max.  My CAD program of choice for most things is Draft Choice, and my results don't look like Autocad or Pro E.  Neither do I expect them to.  I didn't pay that kind of money, and if I was after more "professional" results, I'd use TurboCad Pro.  But there is a price difference, as there is between TC Pro and Autocad.  OR, I didn't pay for that kind or result, I don't expect that kind of result. 

I'm quite sure SM could produce a program that would keep them all happy, but I have my doubts anyone could afford it.  Time to put the automatic complaints to the side and wait to see what they come up with as a final result.  But I also know that won't happen.

Doric.

 "It's coming..... it's almost here.... just a few more months..... any day now......." what a load of crap.    Smith Micro dropped the ball and now they have finally realized that their competition has jumped ahead of them.    "any day now"...... yeah right!   

I honestly didn't clock but nothing took longer than 5 to ten minutes. I know that much because I got through half an episode of Archer while rendering each.

lol, awesome way to tell time.

those renders looks great, that helmet was a good choice. i'm not really interested in 90% of the "discussions" on here, and was about to give this thread up up till i saw those. good to hear your working on, i assume, the figure end? will just have to wait for that, but i have faith. I hope this thread will not disuade future glimpses of whats coming.

@Doric
I think the bottom line is that Poser is strictly for die-hards now (fanboys and fangirls).  I think it's been like that for a long time now, not that there's anything wrong with that, it's obvious why people stand by Poser.  But the bulk of Poser's userbase obviously moved over to iClone and DS long ago, they're sick of lagging behind with prehistoric technology, and they'll continue to be sick of it for as long as dumb-ass decisions such as incorporating a modern GPU-capable renderer and not making use of the GPU rendering ability - are forthcoming.  It doesn't need confirmation, it is a dumb decision, the year is 2015, not 2005.

There's a reason there is so much blacklash from the people here, it's because it's so dumb.  Nerd's post reads almost like a prankster posted it. In fact if it didn't have Nerd's name above it, I would actually have thought it was a prank, but it's gone April so it must be real.  It just feels amateur and nothing like what I would expect a Sneak Preview from Poser's Product Manager to look like.

Such things should be done with professionalism and in an enticing way, but as it happens, it was as comical as the people (like you) who are defending it.
Keep it up, cause just like the dinosaurs, you could become extinct.

thanx nerd and teyon fr renders. just between us, was only gonna buy it if stefan et al. added caustics.  I reckon it will slow it down compared to PP2014, at first.

There is a ton of provocative language being used here. Please use quotes when you talk about somebody slamming something, PrecisionXXX.  I don't know if you're talking about me or someone else.

I am not suggesting the new renderer is terrible, or doesn't look like Max, or that if doesn't do everything I want, to hell with it. I didn't say any of those things, If you were referring to me. I know what Cycles is capable and I want all of it, including the new, better nodes and the GPU.

Here's my render of the same helmet using its PBR textures. I rendered this in Poser Pro 2014 - what we already have - in FireFly. I don't need a new renderer to do this. This, too, is one shader doing many materials in Poser. I've been explaining how to do multiple materials in the same Poser shader for years. It rendered in under 5 minutes. This is not news. 

News is a similar quality render in 15 seconds or less - that would be interesting.

@Baggins
I assume this is done using that "Parameter Modulation" technique you mentioned, and either way, very nice!

Yes - parameter modulation. I have it pretty straightforward in matmatic - one line of code, actually will make a PBR shader in Poser.

But - there's so much more than PBR. PBR doesn't do subsurface scattering. PBR doesn't do anisotropic reflections. PBR doesn't do refraction or volumes. All of these things are possible with Cycles!!!! PBR is the gaming boys catching up to US. We have had physically accurate for a long time.

Meanwhile, I think the PBR parameterization is excellent because it standardizes the PARAMETERS. The physics is assumed. So it's a really nice thing to work with. And look at all this detail packed into just a few texture maps - and it works perfectly in Poser, Daz, Blender - whatever. PBR is a great idea, but it doesn't cover everything I render. For SciFi helmets and guns, though ... awesome.

pumeco, read my posting "Not quite Gilbert and Sullivan", then go look in a mirror.  It pretty well defines someone that thinks he's an expert, but he's more of an egg spurt. 

But the Eggspurt, meaning you, tried to analyze what was intended as nonsensical humor, that was written by a far sharper wit than you possess.

I'm also not defending it, just stating something completely foreign to you, that common sense dictates to wait to see the finished product before we condemn it. 

Definitely not aimed at you, BB.  Just wishing people would wait until the finished product is available.  Otherwise, it like judging the performance of the next model Ford based on the clay mockup.  The Pinto probably looked good in clay.  On the road it was a different matter.

You, I know, could probably work with any render engine no matter what methods used.

Doric.

@Baggins
I must confess, I still haven't downloaded MatMatic or any of your Shaders Systems, I really have to change that, but not until I've done my reformat and have a functioning Poser installation.  My current one won't even save stuff properly so I just don't use it anymore.  But yup, I was hoping that learning the Poser Nodes the hard way would be beneficial to me in the long run, but for some reason my mind is just not with it when it comes to Poser's Material Room.  That said, I'm very interested in getting it downloaded now that you mention the Parameter Modulation thing, that's going to be interesting to look at.

Anyway, love the render, especially that oxidised rust effect on the underside edge of the grey shield, like you said, awesome!

Yes - parameter modulation. I have it pretty straightforward in matmatic - one line of code, actually will make a PBR shader in Poser.

But - there's so much more than PBR. PBR doesn't do subsurface scattering. PBR doesn't do anisotropic reflections. PBR doesn't do refraction or volumes. All of these things are possible with Cycles!!!! PBR is the gaming boys catching up to US. We have had physically accurate for a long time.

Meanwhile, I think the PBR parameterization is excellent because it standardizes the PARAMETERS. The physics is assumed. So it's a really nice thing to work with. And look at all this detail packed into just a few texture maps - and it works perfectly in Poser, Daz, Blender - whatever. PBR is a great idea, but it doesn't cover everything I render. For SciFi helmets and guns, though ... awesome.

Considering your skill, knowledge and the length of time you have been contributing greatly to the Poser community, I have a serious question for you..

Poser, now owned by Smith Micro, is an "enabling" package. It is not a "content" package. It's more of a toolkit than anything else and it gives us some basic content to play around with, but it is a product that relies entirely upon content creators for its longevity. In short - It relies on private contractors for the majority of its value to the consumer.

You continually amaze us with your material magic. This is no false praise. What you and a very few, very select, very knowledgeable few have contributed to Poser users can not be understated.

With that in mind, how much of Poser's perceived "deficiencies", focusing on Firefly, are due more to the deficiencies of content creators or the host of what could be considered "sub-standard" products being offered for it? Products that do not make use of the full capabilities of Poser and Firefly?

In the heady days of personal computing, there was a continuing argument going on that pitted "full control" producers, those who demanded full control over their entire production process and product lines, versus those that wished for a more open, flexible, production model that largely left "content" and "what can you do with our product" up to the end-user and third-party producers. That war is still raging... But, one of those companies, the one that opted for more full control over their entire product line, is now considered to be one of the most powerful companies on the planet.

With open product lines, you get much more variety and users have much more capability to customize their product how they see fit. But, quality and expertise in production as well as the esoteric knowledge necessary to take full advantage of a product's capabilities can often be found to be lacking.

You may not wish to answer and that's fine, since I'm making an observation as well as asking a question of someone. But, I think it's something worth considering. All too often in my purchases, I find what I consider to be "substandard" work. I'm no expert, but I can tell when a UV map sucks or a creator didn't feel like adding anything more, material-wise, than a texture map. (Not even a bump!) Few options, or options that are meaningless, bugs that were ignored, bad topology in some models, single material zones, using textures where geometry is necessary, etc...

With all the stuff that you demonstrate for us, such as the above, it seems to me that if Poser had "sub-contractors" with half of your knowledge and skill generating products for it, or at least a tiny bit of your concern for quality and customer satisfaction, Poser's users would be much happier with their choice of product than they may otherwise be today.

Doric Wrote:
"pumeco, read my posting "Not quite Gilbert and Sullivan", then go look in a mirror.  It pretty well defines someone that thinks he's an expert, but he's more of an egg spurt.  But the Eggspurt, meaning you, tried to analyze what was intended as nonsensical humor, that was written by a far sharper wit than you possess.  I'm also not defending it, just stating something completely foreign to you, that common sense dictates to wait to see the finished product before we condemn it.!"

Common sense is something you clearly lack, and I think your inability to detect when I'm having a laugh at your expense, is even more comical.
I know why you post stuff and who you aim it at, I'm simply enjoying playing with you in return, it's just much more fun to let you waffle-on oblivious.

Never attempt a battle of wits with one far superior to your own, cause he's always one step ahead of you, and always has an Ace to play ;-)

Bagginsbill, you are tha certified mack when it comes to Shaders/Firefly... those render results are incredible. Bravo.

with GPU after 10sec (yup, ten seconds render time, it's a not too demanding object)

artifacts are because of image compression. this 100 samples, I let it run to 1000 (1:37 min) but that didn't change muchin quality

renderer aside,

I'm more interested in the content is king thing....

@Ehliasys
I have my samples set as low as 20 when I'm messing around in Cycles, grainy, but it stops my fans from spinning-up too much and keeps the cards cool :-D
BTW, what is it, Cycles or Octane?

[morkonan] With that in mind, how much of Poser's perceived "deficiencies", focusing on Firefly, are due more to...Products that do not make use of the full capabilities of Poser and Firefly? [/morkonan]

     Vendor artists will want to aim for the largest possible pool of users, so they'll tend to shy away from using new features which preclude the item's use in earlier versions.

     For each Poser release, I make some models which specifically exploit the new features.  Animated materials (seamlessly looped) using a matrix, animated materials using sequential JPEGs in the movie node, light-casting objects using IDL, animated displacement for water ripples, etc.

~     ~     ~

     For at least some PBR engines, a GPU render (or hybrid GPU+CPU) does not equal a CPU render.  The GPU execution often sacrifices some features of the render engine and/or uses approximations (as does Firefly).  My view is that CPU rendering is paramount;  an option for GPU and hybrid rendering would be a nice plus.  Bear in mind that some PBRs only run well on one brand of video card.  CUDA renderers will need late-model cards and fairly high on the food chain to perform to their potential.

     As for material translation, I highly value the PBR being able to interpret Firefly nodes, so you can use the same scene/model in both Firefly and the PBR, without re-doing every last material in the scene.  Obviously, those Firefly nodes which are "cheats" will be superfluous.  Ideally, I'd like to be able to use Firefly nodes and supplement/replace where advantageous with Cycles nodes.  I don't know if that is possible.  But perhaps we could choose either Firefly or Cycles nodes on a per-material basis.

Hmmm, looks like photorealistic rendering has become childs play if you can get results like that in 10 seconds. Now I understand BB's comment about better software in relation to challenge. Yawn.

With that in mind, how much of Poser's perceived "deficiencies", focusing on Firefly, are due more to the deficiencies of content creators or the host of what could be considered "sub-standard" products being offered for it? Products that do not make use of the full capabilities of Poser and Firefly?

Let me start by saying I think there are valid criticisms of Firefly - I've found and reported my share of "artifacts" and deficiencies. Almost every time I talk about glass I have to explain what we can't do that is obvious to even my wife, who could not care less what renderer we're all using. Some of these problems I have no way to work around, other than "just don't even try to do that." Yet I manage to make some decent images, even with glass and liquids. Having said that - my answer is Yes! Yes, some content creators are variously lazy and ignorant - take your pick. They either don't have the skills or the knowledge and fail to acquire either. I don't understand why I see these in the store. I won't name names, but some of them are famous.

Conversely, some do take the lessons learned and trouble themselves to put a Fresnel_Blend into their shaders, or maybe to run EZSkin since Snarly and I both made all that tech free for commercial use - don't even mention us, you're welcome.

I don't think it serves any real purpose to ask the inferiors to stop, nor even to offer unsolicited advice. Nor does it serve any purpose to demand that the stores throw them out so we can all stop being embarrassed. Some people are just not wired for excellence. They don't get it and they are upset by those who pursue it. When some people vocally object to such thoughts as mine by saying realism isn't everything and I should just stop being an elitist, I understand that my point of view is everything to me but not to most people. I could go and become a Blenderhead - nothing stops me. But something is fun about being in this pond with these fish.

The stupid arguments about stupid stuff do dissuade me though. Sometimes I take a break, and then Pumeco wonders if I'm off doing something useful and brilliant. Well - yes - I'm making money.

Hmmm, looks like photorealistic rendering has become childs play if you can get results like that in 10 seconds. Now I understand BB's comment about better software in relation to challenge. Yawn.

Exactly. Look - here's a perfectly good glass and metal render I did in Firefly. You can't do better, IMO. But it took like 10 minutes. Imagine this in 10 SECONDS.

Never attempt a battle of wits with one far superior to your own, cause he's always one step ahead of you, and always has an Ace to play ;-)

A battle of wits against you would equate to doing battle against an unarmed person, which I won't do. 

Baggins Wrote:
"The stupid arguments about stupid stuff do dissuade me though. Sometimes I take a break, and then Pumeco wonders if I'm off doing something useful and brilliant. Well - yes - I'm making money."

I'm not even sure where that comment came from, what did I say in here that was stupid?

If you think I have something against you being obsessive about detail and things working right, you could not be more wrong if you tried, that's something I totally admire you for, and obviously a lot more than you think.  It's the lack of such pride in what one does that is responsible for a lot of the flakey crap we have to put-up with these days.  You are an exception to the rule, but sadly, far too rare an exception.

And as for you earning money, I'm pleased you do, you deserve it because you're quality obsessed.

I don't get where that comment came from, unless it's got something to do with that comment I made ages ago where I said I'm not interested in ritches.  Baggins, I can live in an 8x4 shed in the middle of a forest and I'd be happy for the rest of my life as long as that shed and that forest is mine.  Fancy cars and big houses are nice, but I'm not interested in that.  It doesn't mean I have an issue with anyone who does though, I mean blimey, if I did, then that would mean I'd have an issue with almost everyone in the civilised world :-D

Sorry, but I just don't understand where that comment came from, it must be a misunderstanding!
I'd be doing the same as you do if I had your skills - so more power to you.

Doric Wrote:
"A battle of wits against you would equate to doing battle against an unarmed person, which I won't do."

Cheers Doric, I really appreciate it :-)

@Pumeco,

No - you took two separate sentences and conflated them.

The first sentence had nothing to do with you - I meant that the stupid arguments cause me to leave the forum, and I disappear for a while. Arguments such as anything about Genesis.

Step 2:

Recently (yesterday?) you speculated that my general absence of late was because I was working with SM on Poser 11. That' s the reference for the second sentence.

No - I leave because I'm busy and disinterested in the active threads.

I don't have any beef with you. I think your'e funny.

You're right bagginsbill, that's a fantastic render! My Poser material and rendering knowledge I owe almost exclusively to your advice, via Pouring over your threads. All respect due. Me, I'm pretty good at modeling and texture painting. But, since you brought it up, what I'm really good at is real world drawing, painting, and sculpting. Which I can do better than you, and this is a fact. All I need is a pen. ;)

...

Poser artists and their attitudes, lol.

Baggins Wrote:
"I don't have any beef with you. I think your'e funny."

Heh, I feel honoured, most people think I'm a complete and utter b@stard!
Cheers Ted (I feel like I can call you Ted now).

So now that we're best mates and stuff, Ted, you could start on BB_Anamorphic :-)

Primorge Wrote:
"You're right bagginsbill, that's a fantastic render! My Poser material and rendering knowledge I owe almost exclusively to your advice, via Pouring over your threads. All respect due. Me, I'm pretty good at modeling and texture painting. But, since you brought it up, what I'm really good at is real world drawing, painting, and sculpting. Which I can do better than you, and this is a fact. All I need is a pen. ;)"

You should have showed them "Devil Porn Theatre" (or at least a non-clickable link directly to it).
I still believe "Devil Porn Theatre" to be your finest work - absolute awesomeness!

I've removed access, for the time being, to my image's humble presence on the web Pumeco. I've been working on something pretty cool though. It bends well, he he. Apologies for the OT and smart-assery, best to say nothing if not nice. Sure is difficult on this forum, though. They're so much more well behaved over at the Daz Carrara forum. Like the... Stepford wives or somethin'.

This PBR textured gun came out really well in Poser Pro 2014, except for the Firefly-hates-other-people's-geometry problem just above the switch in the middle. I'll be glad if that sort of thing would stop.

Looks good, I have that model. It's the WarTech AK74 looks like... was having some smoothing/ballooning issues with it though, never got around to trying to fix it. Beautiful model, just not right in Poser.

Be nice if SM would dump that annoying 'error importing wavefront object' pop up when you cancel an import. Also, accidentally clicking import without having an object selected in the dialogue (which can happen when you forget after typing a name in) crashes Poser outright. How about just an error message for that one?

I imagine you could brute force fix the ballooning on that gun by disabling smoothing in properties, render settings, and setting crease at 0. Haven't tried, might turn out faceted.

forgot to mention - great news in re: gpu!

now I keep using old imac!  is overheating unfortunately.

Miss nancy, what Os version are you using on that imac? Will it run latest Poser version? Was thinking of getting another more recent mac from PowerMax but am on the fence over mac pro or imac. Monitor's getting kinda old too (dell ultrasharp).

pumeco wrote

I have my samples set as low as 20 when I'm messing around in Cycles, grainy, but it stops my fans from spinning-up too much and keeps the cards cool :-D

BTW, what is it, Cycles or Octane?

this was done in Octane. it's a GPU optimized renderer (can't even use CPU) but not really limited in what it can do :)

EldritchCellar wrote

Hmmm, looks like photorealistic rendering has become childs play if you can get results like that in 10 seconds. Now I understand BB's comment about better software in relation to challenge. Yawn.

well, in this case it took me some minutes to set up the shader. rendering was quick then, though :D

Usually, in my images I spend a good deal of time in optimizing the materials. It is amazing what you can get out of simple textures once you know what you're doing.

And my usual render times ain't 10 seconds either :D 

more from 10min to 1.5 hours 

You're right bagginsbill, that's a fantastic render! My Poser material and rendering knowledge I owe almost exclusively to your advice, via Pouring over your threads. All respect due. Me, I'm pretty good at modeling and texture painting. But, since you brought it up, what I'm really good at is real world drawing, painting, and sculpting. Which I can do better than you, and this is a fact. All I need is a pen. ;)

Is that V4? I see some minor deviations from reality, lol.

@False1
Nah, that's just Primorge making ample use of his artistic licence :-P

@Baggins
So what's causing that effect I keep seeing a lot on PBR renders?

It's an effect I can see all over your gun render, while your Helmet render shows no signs of it.  The best way I can explain it is 'flash photography'.  Imagine you photographed that gun with a flash, and then cropped it so that the falloff of the flash cannot be seen.  Basically, it looks like your gun was shot and cropped in that fashion, but the helmet doesn't.  Hard to tell whether it's a shadow thing or not, but there's something odd going on with some renders I see, and I only ever see it on PBR renders.

@Ehliasys
Sorry, forgot your reply.  Yup, I have Octane as well.  Cool program although I never upgraded from the first release as I kept my eyes on Cycles ever since I saw it, and Cycles appears to work the same way as Octane does, so that you get an approximation render while things change and rotate in the scene, and I love that about Octane and Cycles (and hate that about iRay).

@Baggins
Strangest thing, I was just looking at that gun again and the only thing that has changed is the ambient light in my room.  It looks quite alright now, so I assume it's got something to do with the intensity of shadows or occlusion.  The effect has lessened on the gun and increased on the helmet now (I'm being serious, not messing around).

Definitely contrast related, so yup, I'm guessing shadows or occlusion is playing a big part in what I'm seeing sometimes.

Sad that as usual everything descends into a dustup to the detriment of useful conversation. I waded through seven pages and found perhaps a half page of intelligent discussion.

I for one love the idea of a CPU-based PBR, although long-term I hope to have better GPU options. My computer itself is incomparably more powerful than my video card.

But I'd like to know what other improvements are in the works, which other than general content-related questions, most people seemed more interested in mutual bashing rather than asking. Even with PBR, if there isn't significant improvement in the Hair Room, that's probably a dealbreaker in terms of me upgrading, myself.

I think the thread has been very on topic, being PBR in Poser and by extension cg, how this relates to Firefly. Also PBR is very much focused on realism, and realism in art. There's also the content aspects of Nerd's comments to consider, which brings to mind Poser and the reliance of the Poser user base on appropriation in order to create their art. If this were not a concern then the whole compatibility/ V7/V4/SM native topic would be moot.

"well, in this case it took me some minutes to set up the shader. rendering was quick then, though :D

Usually, in my images I spend a good deal of time in optimizing the materials. It is amazing what you can get out of simple textures once you know what you're doing."

Oh yeah, totally agree. On the subject of physically based renders, ones other than Poser's (since you posted octane renders) yeah I got some of them too. Even built all of my own content, models, textures for them (which I subsequently sold at a gallery). There's some artifacts from web compression and sizing down and it took about a second to render them and they were hastily set up but you'll get the idea. Can't remember which renderer I used though, an artist friend I was doing a show with just handed it to me. As I recall it was digital. Nice thing about these models/renders (the line blurs) they're dishwasher safe and they'll last for thousands of years. :D

There are those noodle elbows again. Trying to get away with no JCMs? ;o)