this is my only problem with dina... she doesnt look pretty, or even.. normal from any angle. she looks like some sortof transvestite rugby player - and you cant CHANGE her because she lacks the morphs to customise her. now, you could argue that vicky looks too 'perfect', but by twisting a few dials you can make vicky2 look like an overweight couch-potato, a superhero, fantasy barbarian, faerie, alien, etc. etc. and an almost endless variety of body and face types. she can look like anything, and you can morph her clothing to match as well. now im not saying that dina is all bad, but she is definitely not a vicky replacement. again, this is only my personal opinion, please feel free to post images that prove me otherwise. for those who cant tell right away - the model on the left is vicky2 and the one on the right is dina. im sorry she isnt covered up, but i had no clothes for her and i didnt feel like wasting time morphing vicky's clothes to fit her. dina is shown with her high-res tex, vicky2 is shown with catharina's sara tex (same body tex as daz vicky1 texture). no postwork at all, straight poser4 render.

Ohhh Blackhearted, I nearly dont dare to say it....but...oh no...here it comes....I still like Dina best. She have personality...she is a real woman...ohhh no, maybe Im some kind of lost soul :-)?!? And for the things you say about Dina doesnt look normal from any angle...ehhh...what is normal ? For years Ive done a lot of croquis drawing and...those humans...well, the come in all shapes and forms...I have discovered :-) Morphs to changes her. Dina is a new girl. They will come I guess. Somebody gave a reason for the fact that they are not included already. Dont remember who and why. Im not defending Dina. I dont say she is better than Vicky. I dont even see anything serious in the Vicky-or-Dina-discussion. Some will like Vicky. Some will prefere Dina. In my eyes Dina is just the most pretty little thing Ive seen for a long time :-)

I agree. While the Dina texture is technically more advanced (in theory, anyway) I simply can't see myself going to her as a primary. Maybe after I own all the Vicky stuff I need... :)

"she is a real woman" I am not at all sure that having a oddly proportioned set of shoulders is what it takes to be a "real woman". I hear that a lot in reference to women who are very pretty or shapely - that they are somehow in contrast to "real women". Very confusing.

Uhhh, lil Sky have come into some troubles here :-) By the words "she is a real woman" I just meant that I believe that I could meet her in the streets. That she actually could excist....please, dont kill me for my next words...that she is no doll. And it seem to me that its more the question of money that keep somebody away from her. Lots of people have lots of lots of stuff for Vicky so they dont wanna start all over with Dina. Is that compleatly wrong ?

The comparison is not really fair since the poses are not the same. The only things I don't like about Dina are her face and indeed her shoulders. I didn't like the face of the real-life Dina either, so that's not suprising. And with regards to the shoulders: I already some a image in this forum where someone had turned her shoulder a bit downwards and that looked much better. Apart from that I don't see anything ugly about Dina. Especially when you consider that Vicky is much more expensive. I'm still not sure if I will buy her. With a different face I wouldn't have hesitated.

skygirl:For me its not a matter of money, for me its a matter of taste...Ill wait to see, how she will turn out in future and than i decide.

Ok, thgeisel. Im just try to figure this Poser-thingie out. Seems like only a few build stuff for this program. The rest buy the things. Its so much different from Bryce that Im use to. Sometimes it looks like everything is soooo difficult with Poser, like something only the few gifted can do.

LOL Skygirl - I feel the same way about Bryce. I'm very comfortable in Poser and I've got Bryce 4 but everytime I open it up and try to use it I get so confused I give up and go back to Poser.

Thank God in heaven, Daio !!! Then its just a matter of hard work then even lil Sky can maybe figure Poser out. Its only funny if its possible to figure out how to make all of your own stuff...I think :-)

Dina certainly can be pretty, and she has a lot of character. This is from an image I'm working on... it's unfinished, as you can tell from the misaligned props etc, but I wanted to show what Dina can look like in a raw Poser render with no postwork or fixing up. I originally started this picture using Victoria and then I switched. Dina has a very warm and expressive face, and the asymmetry in it contributes to that. Victoria is beautiful but in many ways too "perfect" in my opinion. Store mannequins have perfectly regular features. Real people, even beautiful ones, don't. This could be debated forever, because it really boils down to a matter of personal preference. No one is going to "prove" that Dina is better than Victoria, or vice versa. If you like Dina, buy her and use her. If you don't like Dina, then don't. QED... :-> -nemo

mjtdevries - the poses ARE the same. the legs look different because, well, dina doesnt have legs. and her arms werent long enough to reach the front of her hip like vicky's do, so theyre resting on the side instead. i even did some minor tweaking to dina's right arm/shoulder because it deforms in this pose. i did it in as unbiased a way as i can. and regardless of the hype, i still think vicky poses better. as for 'a real woman' - i havent met a real woman that looks like dina, and hopefully i never will - she looks like she could break a man in half with that upper body. even pro athletes, rowers dont look like that. she has the legs and hips of a 12 year old girl and the upper body of a man. shes also hailed as a more detailed and advanced model than vicky... where are these details? look at vicky's abdomen, her collarbones, her knees, her arms and legs. and my vicky2 is morphed into a curvier, plumper 'stylized' shape - if i use some tone morphs on her i can bring out MUCH more detail. i still think dina's 'ultra-high-res' mesh is wasted, because i dont see ANY detail that justifies it. shes sompletely smooth and cylindrical. and i can load 3 vicky2s for approximately the same resource load as one dina. like i said, my dina is going on an archive cd until people release morphs to take advantage of her morph potential due to the dense mesh. until then, i dont see what i can use her for.

Nemo: That's the prettiest face I've yet seen on Dina. Did you do anything special with it? Also her smile is nice. I always have problems getting a nice smile on posette or vicky2. It usually doesn't look natural. Her shoulders don't seem so large here. It may just be the pose, but they don't stick "up", like you normally see. Did you do anything with the shoulders? Blackhearted: Sure the poses might be the same if you compare at the numbers on the dials, but the end result clearly isn't the same. And that is what counts when you compare them. For example When you place Dina's feat after each other, Dina will look more gracefully too. I understand what you mean when you say Dina is not more detailed. It might just be because the real-life model had a smoother body and thus less detail. Indeed extra detail and ultra-high-res mesh don't show here, and that wouldn't be a selling point for me either. Those points might have been hyped to much. Still can't complain about that for such a low price.

fauve - a skilled artist can take anything, even the old poser 3 nude female, and with proper lighting, texturing, finding the most flattering pose, can make it looks pretty good. my point is that dina is hailed as a far more advanced, higher quality vicky replacement that is much more lifelike and detailed. i wasnt convinced by the renderings, or the posts in the forum here - but i went out and bought her anyways, to give her a fair chance. i consider myself a decent artist, but i cant do much with her. so whats a newbie going to do? im not bitter or anything. i budgeted the money for dina, that she was a disappointment (at least until morphs come out for her) is fine, a lot of things are. i took a risk, it didnt pan out, big deal. but i know a lot of people that are on tight budgets and shopping for poser items, and theyre being completely taken in by the dina propaganda. 'detail as in the kind of detail youll see in final fantasy' - yeah right, maybe final fantasy 1, the nintendo game. 'dina is fully anatomically correct' - umm, let the image above speak for itself. lets, for a moment, overlook the fact that she has a strangely proportioned body. lets look at anatomy and 'detail'. look at her abdomen - whens the last time you saw one like that? never. noones abdominal crease is that wide, nor does it extend down below your belly button. her collar bones are extremely stylized as well. what about her pubic region? yes, she has a morphing vaginal cavity. im sorry but it takes a LOT more than that to make an anatomically correct model. why doesnt she have creases where her thighs meet her pelvis? they kindof just.. round into it. ive never seen a human like that. and wheres the DETAIL? she has a mesh thats 3x as dense as vicky's. why isnt it utilized? shes just a smooth barbie. its like taking a cube and bumping up the mesh density to some astronomical number - ITS STILL A CUBE, and it will look exactly the same. yes, potential potential. she has the POTENTIAL for morphs to utilize that high density mesh. so why arent they being made? why werent they included in the original package? posette has 5-10x the amount of morphs as dina. the fact is that dina could have been made to look the EXACT same in half the amount of polys as vicky, not 3x the amount. ----- mjtdevries - im going to repost the above image with both of them in their default poses. that way there can be no argument as to 'fairness'. ill also take away the hair and clothing. give me a few minutes to put it together, i didnt save the file so i have to start from scratch.

these two are in the EXACT same pose now. i even moved dina's legs together a bit to close the gap to make her look better.

Halleluja...is that the famouse Vicky ??? Please, Blackhearted...just one more render....one the the girls standing with their arms down....

LOL, sorry sky i didnt save the image again. theres no way im going through all that again. but while were both here - let me draw your attention to dinas abdomen. since youre still hailing her as more realistic, can you please explain that? is she homo sapiens? ive never seen an abdomen quite like that, it seems to cave in, collapse into a trough that runs from her ribcage to her pubic area. her legs are completely shapeless, and whats with the shoulders? these are the famous JCM shoulders that are supposed to be far more realistic than vicky's. they look like sausage links to me. and im not even going to comment on the pubic area.

Blackhearted...Im NOT hailing Dina as more realistic than Vicky. As I said in my first reply, I find the Dina/Vicky discussion not important. Some will like Vicky. Some will prefere Dina...

I'd agree with Blackheart. Although I am a big fan of DSI and appreciate the hard work put into Dina, she has such a masculine face it make me want to retch. She needs some morphing in a bad way. I've seen pictures of the realy Dina and it is a faily close replica. I just wish DSI would have chosen a more feminine specimen. It's a shame. I was very interested until I saw her.

I'd agree with Blackheart. Although I am a big fan of DSI and appreciate the hard work put into Dina, she has such a masculine face it makes me want to retch. She needs some morphing in a bad way. I've seen pictures of the realy Dina and it is a faily close replica. I just wish DSI would have chosen a more feminine specimen. It's a shame. I was very interested until I saw her.

Dina, cannot replace Viki, and I don't think she was meant to. When I posted my pics earlier, I wasn't trying to start a debate on who was better, I simply said I thought she was pretty. When I first got Vicki I about died when I saw her eyebrows, and I thought her lips were to big and her head to small! But she is pretty. I bought Dina to have a different look to the women in my images, everyone can not be a supermodel :) Dina is pretty, and there are a few morphs for her and I think a lot more will come in the future :) See Mazak's post with his image of Dina.

Attached Link: http://www.thegrc.com

Blackhearted, I could point out just as many things about Vicki (even the heavily morphed Vicki you are showing) that are not in the least realistic. But that's really beside the point. I understand that you have a lot of money invested in Vicki to get her the way you have her now and that, as it stands, Vicki does have a lot more morphs available. She's been out for over a year and has had a MAJOR upgrade that itself cost almost as much as most people paid for the original model. But, remember that Dina has as many morphs included as Vicki did when she first came out and she is priced much lower. Plus, there are morphs out there for Dina already. Some which address the very things you are speaking about in regard to Dina's abdomen and legs. My free morph package has some full body morphs that change Dina's abdomen and give her more shapely legs. There are also some nose morphs included in this cr2. You can get them at www.thegrc.com or www.renderotica.com. There are some on Renderosity, too. I think what Skygirl is trying to say, and I agree with her, is that breast implants and too-wide shoulders not withstanding, there is some lifelike quality to Dina that is lacking in Vicki.

can you post some images of dina after shes been morphed? my vicky char above isnt 'heavily morphed' - i used about 5-6 morphs on the body, partially the barbarian, superheroine, narrow waist and full thigh/calf morphs. but thats my point - that with vicky i CAN morph her into whatever i want, and quite easily. all the pictures of dina that i see look EXACTLY the same, i havent seen a post which shows her with anything but those massive shoulders or her pug face. so for those that dont like her default appearance, what are we supposed to do? show me a rendering of dina that DOESNT look like the ones above - one with realistic shoulders, realistic abs, and an aesthetically pleasing face, and youll have turned me into a dina advocate.

The image I posted above is of Dina morphed fairly extensively (using Diane's free morphs and some that I made myself.) I assume, based on what you just wrote, this doesn't fit your criteria of "realistic shoulders, realistic abs and an aesthetically pleasing face." I won't argue with you about that. However, you can't deny that she doesn't look like the default Dina. We're getting into subjective territory. What I like and consider pretty (and the version of Dina that I use I like very much) is "pug faced" and ugly to you. I can't match your personal tastes, and even if I could, I doubt I'd try. But saying that Dina can't be altered from her default appearance is plain wrong. Mazak, Laurie (Daffy34), Diane, Sorcyress, Stormrage... they have all posted images of Dina that show her altered from the default using her existing morphs. If none of those versions are pleasing to you that can't be helped, but they are not "exactly the same." Dina can most definitely be made to look different from her out-of-the-box appearance, and to some of us, she is quite beautiful.

Attached Link: http://www.thegrc.com

This is a character I'm working on now. I'm still working on her body a bit, because I'm not quite satisfied with it, but I don't think this looks much like the original Dina at all. Some of the magnets used will be released as free stuff, all of them will probably be released with the character to help with fitting the clothes. Of course there will be some limitations to what can be done, just like there are with Vicki. For instance, it's nearly impossible to do anything about Vicki's hands. Scaling them down is a horrendously time consuming project and they still never look very graceful. Dina may always have a little bit broader shoulders than Posette or Vicki, because it may not be possible to scale them in too much without changing the joint parameters. I'm still working on that. We'll see. One other thing to keep in mind. She poses a little differently than Vicki, just like Vicki poses a bit differently than Posette. It takes a bit of getting used to. You can't apply exactly the same pose and expect it to come out the same. But the change in joint parameters gives her the ability to be posed in ways that other Poser figures just can't handle without the need for extensive postwork on the joints. BTW, there's no postwork on this image except to the hair and to composite the two renders..

Diane, how very, very nice to find out that somebody finally hear what I say :-) Sky.

RE: #25 dthuregrif, thats pretty impressive. except for the lack of abdominal detail, which you say is possible with other morphs, i have no complaints. i like what i see. but what still bothers me is the fact that this will be released as a marketplace character - so your entire argument that in order for me to get vicky2 to look like that i had to invest a lot of money just went down the drain, for in order for dina to look acceptable im going to have to go out and purchase another character pack for her.

Um... no offense, but I personally don't think either Vicki or Dina is very pretty, right out of the box that is. Yes it takes a little work to turn that character into what you want or are looking for... which uses MTs. When Vicki came out there wasn't a damn thing out there for her. Just the few morphs that came with her, just like with Dina. Two months later, clothing came out for her... hell, it wasn't until just a few weeks ago did someone create Morphable Vicki clothes... Fact of the matter is this... Dina, no matter what you may think of her, be it her upper body, the width of her shoulders... her chuckles stubby legs and length of arms is the way that GOD made her (with a little help from Dina working out, which she does allot), she was NOT made by DSI, she was only scanned. No, I personally would've like a young slypth of a girl that would bring a tear to even Thorne's eyes... however, we didn't have much choice in the matter since we allowed our Scanning partner decide who we would use and turn into a Poser figure. In all honesty, I am kinda glad that we didn't do another "Supermodel" character for Poser. I have seen so much eye candy as it is it turns my stomach. I am kinda glad that allot of people think Dina looks "Average"... guess what, allot of women are... desire is not built by looks alone... it helps, sure, but isn't everything. As for products... geeze, they are coming out. Dan and the rest of DSI are busting our humps to support and create demanded products for Dina. No offense to DAZ, but Vicki didn't have a hell of allot of support from Zygote/Daz. Much of the stuff that you use for Vicki comes from the generous souls of this Community. People like Jaager and Traveler who busted their hump to create many of the morphs that you use today on Vicki, morphs that were sort of recreated by Daz and released as Vicki2... Freestuff items and online store items by this Community is what made Vicki what she is today... not Daz. And I am confident that such will be the same way with Dina, if her sales are any sign of her future, then the future of Dina goods looks very good indeed!! Just my humble opinion... Jack

Ah, but if you purchased Vicki 2 as a stand alone, you paid 59.95 for her without a texture. If you purchased her as an upgrade to Vicki 1, you paid even more. Still without a texture. Dina, as is, with texture is 30.00. This character will be 20.00 or less with a new texture and magnets included. Still less than Vicki 2.

ahem. i dont think dina is even in the same league as vicky1, and she only costs $19.99 and probably has more morphs than dina and this new character put together. you can grab hundreds of free items for her in the freestuff section right here, as well as characters, morphs, poses, etc. as for vicky2, you cant really compare her to dina either - even if you overlook the thousands of characters possible through her morphs, you STILL get 2 models for one price. vicky2 and vicky2p4. meaning that you can use vicky2's awesome head morphs AND posettes whopping wardrobe, which is totally unmatched. between the two of them, posette and vicky probably make up 99% of the market of freestuff and retail items. and THIS is what worries me. i bought natalia, and solondra. theyre both sitting on my harddrive because there are so few characters, morphs, items, clothing, etc for them. its wasted money. now dina has joined them. if you think im product bashing, youre dead wrong. my response to the whole dina deal has its roots back in the old post claiming that shes the most advanced, best model and highly superior to anything else out there. of course if you make claims that arent based on fact, and propagandize repeatedly, you are going to get both a positive and a negative response. now im sure im going to be branded as an evil product basher, but what my posts will do is this: 1. they will make people stop and think for a moment, examine what theyre buying, and decide if its really what they need or just a bunch of hype. 2. hopefully theyll also spurn the creators and morph makers not to abandon this product like other 'alternate' models in the past and actually SUPPORT it with items. this remains to be seen. ------- and as for your statement that vicky isnt supported by daz - lol. you can go to their site right now and shop for hundreds of products. sure, many are brokered - but they have facilitated and encouraged an environment for artists to distribute these things. same goes for the renderosity marketplace. and the freestuff area is overflowing with vicky and posette items. cheers, Gabriel

Jack, I have to say that DAZ has specifically tried to stay out of the Vicki vs. Dina verbal battle, even while incorrect marketing statements have been made in efforts to tip the scale in favor of Dina. (For example, comparing the functionality of Dina to Victoria 1.0, then adding up the costs of Victoria 2.0 and associated items.) It is inflamitory for you to say that DAZ/Zygote did not support Victoria when she was first released. That is very false because if you remember we released a free update for Victoria within a month of her release. That first update contained many new facial and body morphs (including ethnicity morphs). As for your inaccurate statement that DAZ simply recreated the morphs that others in the community had already created, that is also not true. The morphs that we added to Victoria 2.0 were based on customer requests as well as our own original ideas, many of which we envisioned at Victorias inception, and many of which had never been seen on any Poser figure before. Another frustrating issue is concerning your representation of pricing. DAZ/Zygote has always listened to customers, and has eagerly lowered prices to meet the market as it grew to the point it could sustain lower prices. We continue to do so, often in anticipation of market growth. On the other hand, you had the luxury a walking into an established market that can make selling a product at $29.95 lucrative for its developers. When Victoria 1 was developed, the market absolutely would not have supported such a low price point, especially with the fate of Poser being in question at that time. (This was when Metacreations had announced getting rid of Poser and before the formation of Curious Labs.) Jack, I consider your approach to this whole Dina vs. Victoria thing very underhanded and unprofessional. I don't think that you have been objective in your comparisons or truthful in your statements of fact. Youve referred to our personal friendship publically before, but I dont see much of a regard for friendship or even decency in what you write about our company and products. Dont get me wrong; Im not saying taking issue with your having a bias in favor of your own product. It is however, unfair to the community to post such misleading statements in the promotion of your product. To quickly clear the record in some way, you should know that DAZ is continuing to support Victoria and Michael and the rest of the Millennium family. We have some great things coming in the near future that will keep these figures at the leading edge. We are also working on ways to help support and grow the Poser market in general. Ill be gone (wifes out of town and I am playing Mr. Mom), and wont be responding to this thread, but felt I needed to defend DAZ. We typically try to stay removed from such discussions, but when you attack DAZ and our efforts to support our products and customers it is too much for us to leave undefended. We realize that any success we have as a company is solely dependant on our customers and all of our efforts are spent doing our best to serve them. Obviously you can decide how youd like to respond to this thread, as well as make statements in the future, knowing (and perhaps choosing) situations when we wont be involved. My suggestion to you is to be certain to take more care for accuracy and professionalism. Also, if you are going to compare the price of Victoria to Dina, be sure to mention our sale price of $19.95 for Victoria 1.0. Sincerely, Dan Farr President, DAZ Productions

Dan, sigh Here we go... I got Victoria when she first came out, true, the market was different then than it is now. I expect that the market will continue to be impacted by many of the products that are released for Poser, whether it is DSI product or DAZ products or anyone elses. The market has changed to such a point now, where Poser commercialism is going to create "Price Wars" among those companies and individuals, and at the same time, continue to "raise the bar" on products that those companies release. Not to mention all of the various online stores that are out there, all competing to generate sales of those products to continue to draw sales into their stores and/or sites. We might as well add to that factor how this market will be changed by way of the developement of Poser itself in the next coming updates and releases... all of this leading to new and exciting product at an affordable price to the Community. DSI took that first step by releasing a character that contains a figure of their own that raises the bar (in our opinion) for those looking for more posibilities with character development. It was never our intention to make a Vickie vs Dina sales pitch. But DID feel that it was necessary to state the advantages of Dina over current marketable products such as Victoria. There are some individuals in the Community that would love to make it just that. Though my above statement may have certainly ticked you off, I only said what felt. Only an opinion, not a slam. Yes, you did create an update for Victoria which was to upgrade her, which at the time you most certainly felt there was a need to do, because there was a need. Yes, that was some much needed support. However, support in my opinion (and it is only my opinion) means more than fixing bugs and trouble spots. It means continuing to make product for that character. Yes, you created a clothing pack for her, yes, you created morphs for her to later be released as a version 2 product. You created some textures for her and a couple of hair styles... but, but, what I think allot of people who are talking about DSI's supporting of Dina extends much more than those brief products. Many of the tools utilized for Victoria today are products that the Community created in support of that character. For a while there, the plausability of Victoria's lifespan was in question because it took a long time for people to Posette away long enough to really give her a try. And in that stage, allot of that belief was facilitated by the fact that Zygote/DAZ was in production with Michael, so creation of extra product for Victoria was on standby, including allot of the morphs that were requested for her, which had mainly been answered already by Traveler and Jaager. Granted, you did do them and you released them as Victoria 2... however... Fact of the matter is this, Dan... 1.) I really am not looking for a fight with you. Nor for us to start a schoolyard fight with each other here in the forums. 2.) Your marketing strategy for future products are going to go up against Dina one day, I realize that and accept it. Advertising of products that are in competition with other products always has comparisons made about them, to prove viability of those products when presented to the consumer. I would expect no less to be said when you release Victoria 3 or another figure that contains a high poly count than the current version uses. 3.) Yes, there are some things that I think should be focused on when a company or individual releases a product. It should receive support through ALL stages of that model's lifespan. Granted, costs of creation and product should be weighed when it come to that, however, product for that release should be a consideration for the consumer's that do purchase that product. DSI has it lucky, currently they only have one product, Dina, to support. However, it should be always be a concern. 4.) For the record, currently, DSI plans to attack the current pricing structure that is currently being used. I suspect that you already know this and the sale of Victoria version 1 for $19.95 ($50 dollars off from when she was first released) is part of your reply to that threat. I hope that in the future that will also happen to the cost of Victoria 2, since the primary market of Poser users are Hobbists that live on meager paychecks and would love to be able to afford more products for their use. 5.) It was NOT my intent to piss you off. I stated my opinion, which I should've thought better of, but I really do believe that the success of Victoria is mainly from the support that she received from the Community that bought her and created other product for her. That isn't a slight against your company, there is only so much you can do. I just felt the Community deserved some credit for having a hand in her success when replying to Blackhearted's comments about the support of Victoria. 6.) There is NO NEED for you to defend DAZ. Not when it comes to me, or this Community. You should know that about me by now. Yes, I think there is room for improvement, but you have FAR LESS to prove to this Community than I do. 7.) (For the Community) Dina, like the early Victoria, takes some getting used to. It is measured by support in this Community, which also happens to creates some of support. Dina IS NOT Victoria, Victoria has her good qualities, just like Dina, and they both have their bad qualities. To weigh the both of them together, well it isn't really even the same ball game, granted, they may both be Poser Character Geometry, one may have some benefits over the other, but truth of it is, only you can decide which one you like... or both. Just because you have one does NOT mean that for it's continued exsistance it needs your undying loyalty... there really isn't a reason you can't love BOTH of them... sheesh... 8.) Sorry I pissed you off Dan. Really, I am. I'll try to keep my opinions to myself... I value your friendship more than Dina. You're real, she isn't. Jack

Blackhearted, I actually appreciate your comments about Dina. It only helps us know better what people are looking for. But by your reasoning, people should just stick to Posette. She comes free with Poser and there are even more free things available for her (and her various incarnations such as Eve) than there are for Vicki. But Vicki is an improvement over Posette for many reasons, and people soon discovered that. I don't expect Dina to replace Vicki any more than Vicki has replaced Posette. But I do hope people give Dina the same chance they gave Vicki, because without the community's support, Vicki wouldn't be where she is today either. It took people a while to warm up to Vicki for the very same reason people are hesitating about Dina (nothing they already had would work on her). People are always resistant to change. But Dina is, and will be, supported. She already has a clothing pack, a Valkyrie costume and changing corset/skirt pack that include the same body morphs she comes with, plus hotpants and a mermaid tail. A catsuit will be coming out shortly. Pam has a character ready to release for her and I will be releasing mine shortly. Give it time and I'm sure you will see more free stuff for her, too. BTW, NataliaV2 also has a P4 body that comes standard with her, so all those P4 clothes will work on her as well. If you didn't get the upgrade, write to dacort. He gave it out free to people who bought Natalia before the upgrade.

Personally, as the whole Vicky/Dina thing goes on I feel more and more secure in stickign with Vicky as our primare model. I think Dina is a great effort, and I liek the extra mesh density - but even if she is "scanned" I must say that the scanning did not provide us with a model that hs many of the realism features we would want. She might be a real person but she doesn't have many of the characteristics needed to represent most people. Personally, I think the resolution on the sanning technology is lacking... not the MESH resolution the actual accuracy of the origional data. Be that as it may - I agree with others that the reason I participate in these threads is not that I mind that Dina exists - but I intensely dislike it when marketspeak outweighs the realities involved. Dina is not the most "advanced" character ever. She has a higher mesh count. She has some interesting model details. She has JCM nicities. All true. But that high rez mesh isn't modelling anything with much detail. And the JCM is kinda inaccurate (see the problems with the shoulders). When I look at the technical comparisons on the Dina home page I am even more confused by the seemingly naive view held about the interaction of polygon count and detailing. Now, I understand that as a small vendor you need to make big noise - and you have. I hope your doing well. I don't think you have Daz scared, as you tried to imply, nor do I think it is valid to position yourself as a sort of "peoples champion" against the "big company" - again like you seem to be trying to do. Dina is a nice model for those who need her - and her polygon count has raised awareness that more polygons might have uses - but I will be very amused in the end if you try and imply that every advance in Vicky from here on is a response to the "Dina challenge". But hey, I have way too much invested in Vicky textures, morphs and clothing to switch anyway - especially when you add in our custom stuff in house.

I dont own either model never saw a need or desire..hell, if I want to see a naked picture of either, all I have to do is click ANY thread..lol I do agree that dina needs a makeover. I do think that by this time next year, dina will be a much different figure. IMHO, I still havent seen one picture of her that removes that "snarl' from her nose. Ive seen some really valiant attempts..but still there. (looks like she's crinkling her nose at you) If I were gonna buy one figure, I'd still probably get Vicky now because she has so much more available for her...and she's prettier. Face it, sex sells--pretty sells too. Not saying that dina is ugly..but well, between the two shrug my choice is vick. If DSI had used that pretty face kinda woman (say like shania twain pretty) then in one heartbeat, I would have bought dina because of the step forward in trying to get over this "<35000 poly" thing that the poser community seems to hold so dear...not to mention the serious price difference. I whole-heartedly support the 'war' on the high prices of figures. I have always thought that >50 bucks for a posable figure was outrageous (sp)...and currently it IS the hobbiest that make the majority of the poser and bryce world. I very much anticipate that dina and any new characters like her will take the forefront by mid-next year. I can see her being not only a pretty girl next door, but the average one you meet every day on the street. With that kind of poly count and the vast amount of talented artists that are taking on the challenge to make her better, in the future she'll be on top...there is just too much versatility with that kind of model. Someone will do what DSI didnt do I also see..they will make a figure with this kinda of potential that is arguably beautiful right out of the box...and it will out-sell. guys/gals..this IS 2002 (nearly)..computers and their power are not the limitation for a model and 3d..its the person who makes use of it and the "we've always done it that way" statements that lead to bad views. Wishing both DAZ and DSI well for their future, but ask that they read what is being said by the 'hobbiests'. There are more nay-sayers than yay-sayers...and fixing something is often MUCH more work than just re-doing it. for instance..and this is just a pot shot in the dark...a totally new head?... Even one made by a third party that sports that kind of head polycount..and fits flawlessly on dina's body. morphs to lengthen the legs and arms more realistically? the possibilities are endless... best BT

Attached Link: http://www.dinarotica.net/portfolioNF.html

Same argument different model Dina's ugly Victoria 1 is ugly Dina looks like a guy vicky looks like a guy I can't do ANYTHING with Dina I can't do ANYTHING with Vicky *rolling eyes* Come on. Vicky wasn't that easy to get used to either but I have seen amazing characters born from her mesh. Same will be for Dina. You complain that she's ugly but have you WORKED with her? I mean really worked with her? Used the morphs more than just 10 minutes? Vicky was ugly then came zoe, and other characters. Posette was unreal but damned if I haven't seen amazing artwork using her Dina may be "ugly" but I have already seen some amazing work using her. Maybe the problem lies in the fact that the real dina: is somewhat ethnic looking Excersizes to the point where her muscles are well defined is not a skinny nothing but bones supermodel type woman Had breast implants Even the real dina doesn't have the same look twice. Look at her portfolio and the rest of her website. Work with dina and you will find the beauty you seek instead of complaining how ugly she is.

Blackhearted said : *the poses ARE the same. the legs look different because, well, dina doesnt have legs. and her arms werent long enough to reach the front of her hip like vicky's do, so theyre resting on the side instead. i even did some minor tweaking to dina's right arm/shoulder because it deforms in this pose.* Well using a vicky pose on Dina will do that the same way a posette pose will deform Vicky. The figures don't have the same Joint parameters. And are cut differently. Here's the problem I see.. You are comparing Dina to Vicky. Which doesn't do any good at all because Vicky is not made by DSI and Dina isn't made by DAZ. There lies part of the difference. 2nd. Vicky's poses work well on dina with minor tweaking.. Yep minor tweaking. I should know I have used Vicky's poses ON Dina. Also used posettes but that's a bit more tweaking. 3rd. Dina is different than vicky who is different from Posette. No two people are exactly alike why the hell should poser figures be exactly the same? Everyone moves differently so do poser figures.. Some are tall some are small some stocky some thin as a reed.. Nothing is alike. There are going to be differences with Dina and Vicky just like vicky is different than Posette. If you truly want a fair comparison go hire the real Dina.. ask her to pose for you. Then pose the poser Dina in the same way. THEN compare the two. Poser models differ from each other and so do human beings. But if you truly spend some time working with Dina you will find that she has a lot of potential

oops-- only thing i touched in the image above is the hair ends.. in postwork Pose is from a victoria mood pose package.. and only adjusted Dina's arms a bit. Talisa's face is about 10 minutes of tweaking

Great thread, even a little "friendly fire" between DSI and DAZ (thankfully not too much). I like 'pretty' and I like 'plain' also. I like the forthcoming Dina mods - they definitely help - but again, there goes the price advantage. No offence to Ms. Vanoni, but to me and obviously quite a few others, Dina is simply beyond plain and into plain unattractive. Pretty does sell, fantasy sells. I'm really shocked that DSI let the scanner pick the model for what is obviously an important new product. Even if they got a substantial price break, guys, imho, ya got rooked. Next time pick your own model, hopefully a more "conventional" face/figure one. Better yet, post pics of some canditates and let us vote. She doesn't have to be gorgeous, just not another Dina.

And all this just because of the word pretty...sigh...

hey...you all ever take a while and just browse the real dina's stuff? I mean all the links for her online. I have to say, the read dina is a fox. I'd never bothered to check out all the images online. It seems the 3d conversion of her into a mesh simply didnt do her justice at all. Tho the amount of silicone used for the ..umm..chest upgrade could patch the hole in the exxon valdez...she is very attractive in her photo layouts. I wonder if its maybe just a small difference that is making the big fuss? I was looking and comparing. Seems that her head is wide along the x axis, but her arms are short on that same one. the shoulder issue seems to have been addressed above (in a different thread) the simple joint re-placement makes her look much more realistic. The scan in no way did her justice... I saw like 3 pictures that resembled this 3d model...the rest werent even close (talking facial features here). btw, I love the debates about her...they are the only threads I always read all the way thru. BT

"Maybe the problem lies in the fact that the real dina:..." Actually, not for me it isn't. Personally, the 'real' Dina is pretty attractive in some of her layouts - though I suspect she is losing amore and more of her tone as time goes on because in some of them she is kinda - fleshy and in others she is a hardbody. In either case, the model in 3D doesn't seem to have much of the detail that Dina herself has. I am thinking more and more that it is the scnaner itself that messed this up. Then the rather agressive (to be polite) marketing and optimistic (to be very polite) "fact" comparisons have brought a lot of attention to the claims. Can the model be helped with morphs? Sure! At this point it would need morphs to look like Dina herslef... but that can all be fixed. The real questions is - when we are done morphing her what was the point fo the scanner int he first place? Anyway - it was a great idea and a cool hack. I agree with the poster above that it was probably a bad choice to leave the choice of the model up to the scanning company. The results changed what might have een a triumph into a long hard battle.

The battle...at least in this thread...only came a long because of stupidity...mine and Pokeydots. You know in a previous thread we were so stupid to post our first images with Dina and we were so stupid to say that we found her pretty. Next day this thread was here...adressed to me and Pokeydots. I made a reply...and I have not and will not changes my words. I still find Dina pretty and Im still not interested in comparing her with Vicky. I dont have Vicky. I dont want her. To me getting Dina was the first time Ive ever been interested in Poser. Interested in how to make stuff for her, props, textures etc. Guess Ive lost that interest. I dont wanna be a part of fighting like this. Ill continue using Poser as Ive always have done...as an apps to Bryce. A place to pick up humans and animals if needed.

hey sky I dont think there is fighting ('cept maybe a low bullet or two of friendly fire between daz and dsi). To me, its more of a discussion. I do see one picture here in this whole set that is very close to looking like the real dina. really dont think anyone is bickering..maybe its shooting over my head? :) BT

Skygirl, well said :) I was not looking to start a debate, I was just so excited that I got Dina, that I wanted to post an image, and as my kids say different strokes for different folks! I like Dina, and I think she is pretty. I have all the millenium folks, Vicky, Mike, and the kids. I like them all, and I think Viki is pretty too. But I wanted a different look, and so along came Dina :) And I bought her. And I am happy with her, and it was money well spent. I think Daz charges a fair price for his models, and has good support for purchases made there. Sooooooo, enough said, and everyone go in peace :) ((((hugs)))) pokeydots

ok. please stop with the remarks designed to generate pity and sympathy, sky. -------- "The battle...at least in this thread...only came a long because of stupidity...mine and Pokeydots. You know in a previous thread we were so stupid to post our first images with Dina and we were so stupid to say that we found her pretty. Next day this thread was here...adressed to me and Pokeydots" -------- thats pretty melodramatic. this is meant as a discussion, and if you cant handle discussions or other people disagreeing with your opinionated posts, then what are you doing on a forum - which is designed with that purpose in mind?

hey bh if it were me in the header, Id feel a bit attacked too. Please dont get off track with the discussion you started. I really enjoy the banter this topic always starts. One has but to look at the number of comments to see this is a REAL issue to users. Im sure that daz and dsi see it as such too. please..please dont start something that isnt intended. this is a real discussion..if you start with the 'backoffs' it will move to c&d and thats not where this goes. I would like to see the skygirl/pokeydots thing removed from the string (moderators? please?) to let this be what it really is..not a questioning of a person's idea..but of a model. come on..really? BT

Blackhearted, Im not up to generate pity and sympathy. Why should I ? Let me repeat for only God knows which time: I have never wanted to start a discussion about Dina vs Vicky. If thats what you want to discuss...well, that fine, but keep my username out of it, thanks. And at least try to listen to Brycetech. Dont start something that will move this thread to C&D. And now both of us have said to each other what we want. Let it end by that.

the only person that should feel attacked here is me, BT. i posted this thread simply with the intention of showing pokey and sky why i thought vicky was much prettier than dina. im entitled to my opinion, just as they are entitled to theirs. i havent attacked anyone - im defending vicky. so please stop trying to make me look like the bad guy here. there is no bad guy - this is simply a discussion.

I am kind of confused why this "discussion" is necessarily directly related to the folks who started it anyway. This thread has a life of it's own like they all do and sometimes it wanders away from the post that started it all. It's that simple. The discussion evolves - there is simply no reason to take it at all personally. What I am confused about is the persistant idea that most of us are worried that Dina isn't "pretty". That isn't my concern at all - I am sure morphs will come to fix that in time.

Blackhearted, just want to say, yes you are entitled to your opinion :) And I did not take this personally lol, I am just amazed at how many threads evolved from a simple post :) I do not hope you think I was attacking you, I am not one for fighting, so, enuf said, and if you think I said anything that sounded like an attack , I am sorry. Pokeydots