Recap.

From Poser1 (where I started) to Poser 4, everything was NEW. Customers said, "hey, what is THIS? And THIS is fun" ! ! ! ! Most content was hobby and released as freestuff. I remember NEW free stuff each and everyday (and a VERY active Poser forum community)

From Poser4-5 onwards, the setup room, the hair and cloth and face room from Poser 5, gave the tools to enhance the content. There was very little content and most that could weld 2 boxes became hobby vendors because they could make some pocket money.

The problem was the quality of the figures provided, and see => DAZ came with V1, and that is basically how DAZ started.

Onwards a few years, and Poser grows as an app, and DAZ grows as figure provider and releases V4/M4. At the time a HUGE step forwards in figure quality.

Current situation; Everybody knows what happened these last years, and everybody bought a HUGE content closet for V4/M4.

Future; As mentioned above, the vendor that puts bikini number 15.001 up for sale has how many sales? Is it better then the 15.000 before? It has to be, or he can keep it.

Modern figures; Are they "better", are they more "robust" then say, V4/M4, Dawn and Dusk, Rex and Roxy? Recently we had Bella, PE, LF, but are they "better" figures?

On the other hand and this is the contradiction; I read here above that some want Texture Transformer support. Some want to keep shoe, and hair compatibility. That is all OK, but don't you want better textures? Better shoes, better hair? Or do you want more of the same?

In the past I wrote : An obj file is just a coathanger to hang the textures on, because it is textures you see, and it is textures you render. You pose the coathanger, but you render the textures.

To change from figure A to figure B is to change the coathanger and everybody has the tools to morph coathanger A into coathanger B and adapt the rig.

What I see as the biggest handbrake; Everybody asks for better figures, but they want to keep their HUGE past investment in V4/M4 content , (including the textures).

The best figure is the figure that has the fewest errors, easy to pose and to build for, and the figure that puts a smile on your face when you render it.

We have more then 30 "prime" figures to choose from already.

The vendor or site, or group of people, that wants to release a "new" figure will have to release a "better" figure with fewer errors then all figures before.

But the V4/M4 existing closets will prevent massive sales. Unless? ? Unless we also build better closets.

For those that like Figure A, but prefer the shape of figure B?

Goto my YouTube channel and look at Video2. In the second part, where I "project" the HD morph into Pauline?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BNG8jFr_M

You can do the same between 2 figures obj files. Scale, you can also reposition during the process to get better alignment, and project Figure B into Figure A.

The result is Figure A with the shape of Figure B. (usually not perfect because of the different mesh structures, but one can come pretty-pretty close.)

That is what I like about Poser. The many tools that are open to your imagination.

The V4/M4 heritage, and how it stopped figure development.

Everybody wants to stay V4/M4 content compliant.

Example : They have hip, waist, abdomen, and chest vertex groups. => That was the "old style" rigging system with spheres and so on. There was no other possibility to get "believable" bending in a figure so the torso was split into parts to get it bending properly.

But now we have the weight-bulge map rigging system. Any idea why we keep adding hip, waist, abdomen, chest vertex groups? Because from a technical standpoint this has become obsolete. You can go from the hip vertex group to a torso vertex group to the neck vertex group and weightmap it out.

Ah, ja, the other "hack" buttocks. Any reason why to keep them?

In the above example , the rigging system improved, but the V4/M4 vertex group structure stopped obj file improvements to maintain older content compatibility.

See where this is going?

There are so many ways to "improve" and simplify figure and content building, but maintaining V4/M4 compatibility has its costs in figure and content improvements.

You misunderstood me Vilters.

I want Texture Transformer support because, based on the past decade - I can't depend on vendors to support a new figure.

I want the ability to reuse V4/M4 content because I can't depend on vendor support for a new figure.

I am all about new figures, but it is difficult to move to a new figure, if vendors refuse to make content for them.

Vendors expect to see V4 level of sales from day 1 of any new figure - and that is delusional.

By and large, vendors are unwilling to do their part to grow marketshare for a new figure.

tonyvilters posted at 9:06AM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357441

"https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2BNG8jFr_M"

You can do the same between 2 figures obj files. Scale, you can also reposition during the process to get better alignment, and project Figure B into Figure A.

The result is Figure A with the shape of Figure B. (usually not perfect because of the different mesh structures, but one can come pretty-pretty close.)

That is what I like about Poser. The many tools that are open to your imagination.

Thank you :)

ssgbryan posted at 7:55AM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357421

DAZ vendors will spend to get merchant resources - Poser vendors won't. If I need characters from the Indian subcontinent for example, DAZ has a bunch, Poser doesn't. That goes with every category outside of early 20's Caucasians. That also applies to every niche outside of hookerware and impractical armor..

So one segment has what you need, the other does not. Figure out why, and you've solved a lot of issues.

Morphs without skin textures is pointless.

Granted - I was generalizing (and skin textures aren't that hard to 'gin up in a pinch - sure you won't have perfect accuracy in some cases (esp. with really dark skin), but that can be somewhat improvised if you really need it (for example, adding your paler palmar and planar skin tones to a texmap via pixelbashing in PShop/GIMP/Whatever). This however, crosses a line between the casual end-user and the prosumer (full pros would have most of their stuff and mods homemade anyways unless there's a time crunch).

DS & Poser both have ways of dealing with this. And just like everything else, the DS solution is both more expensive and more limited in capabilities. Poser vendors weren't providing a solution (as usual) , so a coder stepped up to the plate (also as usual). The same can be said for clothing. Good for end-users, not so good for Poser vendors.

First: Forget DS here - I'm not trying to sell you on that app and our opinions will always differ.

Let's talk Poser. If something is missing...

1. ...would that missing function/item be useful to others on a large enough scale? If not, make/fake it yourself. Much as I hate to say it, the market for, say, a plugin that triggers a "Pew! Pew!" sound each time a keyframe shows a hooked finger colliding against a trigger? It's prolly going to be too limited for anyone to bother. Same with lots of clothing items (even if it sounds obvious to you and I, it likely doesn't get made because, well, it doesn't sell.) If you can't make or fake what you need, look into buying a more skilled person's time to have them make it for you.

2. If it would be useful to a large enough group of paying customers, suggest it (or, well, build and sell it.)

Sounds pretty harsh when viewed from some angles, but that's out of necessity. I mean, consider... on the code front, a decent developer living on either coast rakes in $110-175k/yr on average (and way more than that in Silly Valley) to write code. The unit price for some typical plugin is what, $50? That doesn't even cover one hour of their time, and most stores will barely give them 50% of the sale. It may have taken 20 hours to write the thing, and maybe 20 more to debug, idiot-proof, QA for looks and UX, document, and then package to make it saleable (and that's not even counting maintenance costs in the future). So a guy making $120k/yr building a thing that sells for $50 on the Marketplace (w/ a 50% cut of each sale)? He'd need to sell at least 96 copies just to compensate for his time (around 40 hours, $2400 total, @$60/hr).

So yeah - stuff that you want (and that I want!) won't be present - be it features, functionality, or assets.

Note that none of this solves the question of what makes a good figure. Let's table it for a moment though.

You keep going back to the concept of one figure to rule them all , that concept is dead in 2019.

True and false. We'll get to that in a bit.

We have a V4 killer - it takes full advantage of Poser's capabilities AND it was even made by the guy that made the original Victoria (can't get a better pedigree than that) - Dawn.

It has the exact same freak show proportions that V4 has, it (now) has a full set of head, body, and expression morphs that V4 has. What it doesn't have is the cottage industry of fixes that V4 (and the G figures) have, although a lot of them aren't necessary.

Okay...

So, if Dawn were indeed the V4-Killer, why isn't it the defacto-default, and why is it not the most dominant Poser-exclusive supported item in the Marketplace? Why is world+dog chasing the new-shiny with LaFemme right now? Finally, (and most importantly) which one will Rendo/Poser pick to put in as default w/ the app?

Don't get me wrong - Chris Creek is a mesh-mongering badass. If he made it, I trust it. That simple. When I finally get off my butt and buy Poser, it's prolly the first figure I'll reach for because I know, trust, and respect the hell out of Chris and his work.

That said, I don;t think it's the Vicky-killer. Given Rendo's recent purchase, coupled with their need to direct the masses to their marketplace (and not Chris' enterprise over at Hivewire), I suspect that Dawn will get the cold(er) shoulder pretty soon. LaFemme will be an easier purchase for Rendo (or PE? Who knows? The tea leaves say LaFemme, though.) I'm betting that's what ends up being the Next Default in Poser.

Thing is, will LaFemme be a good figure?

Most vendors at 'Rosity refused to make content for her (and her male counterpart). A lot of the content made for her initially was built using a Poser 6 workflow that vendors were using with V4 (Stugeon's Law also applied) - they were not going to take the time to learn the features of Poser 9 to get the most out of her.

I cannot disagree, but I think you left out something: Rendo isn't Hivewire. I'm betting there was more than a little behind-the-scenes going on to keep Dawn tamped-down a bit. Nothing blatant, but competition is competition. I assign no judgement either way, but I'm not going to ignore market realities, either.

In 2019, end users have a choices of which figure they use - They can use a V3 or V4 (stock, or weight mapped, subdivided, & chipped), or Dawn, Or Anastasia, or Antonia, or, well, you get the idea. As an enduser, I can use any of those figures - vendor support (outside of shoes) is not as important as they think it is.

Yes, No, and Maybe.

Let's unpack the one-figure thingy first: No, One Figure will not rule them all. BUT (you know this was coming, right?)...

Something has to be default. Something has to come with the application to get folks started. Some one figure type (that is, one adult female, one adult male, one kid mesh that can be boy or girl) has to be the one which comes out of the box.

I know about the past - in the earliest days, Poser had megatons of support for Posette. Then Vicky showed up, and all the support started shifting towards it. Eventually, the default figures has zero support, Vicky 3 began to domainte, and then Vicky 4 sucked all the oxygen out of the room (sure, there were figures that were up-and-comers, and niche figures which did okay in their own right, but let's be honest here - the vast, vast majority of stuff was made for one figure, and one figure alone... Victoria.)

So, with Rendo, the 2nd-biggest Poser marketplace, buying Poser...? Pretty sure they want one figure to rule them all similarly, they probably want a basic version of it to come with the application, and they don't want it to be a figure made/supported by Someone Else (hence the prediction that Dawn ain't gonna be it unless Hivewire gets bought out by Rendo.)

Proof of this is surprisingly still easy to dredge up: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/renda-base-figure-pack/37876

Sure, there will always be other figures. There will always be competing figurines, and it may even be a healthy competition. BUT... only one figure will get front-and-center promotion, attention, and the majority of vendor support. Trying to deny that is like trying to deny the most obvious fact (and complaint) in the last two decades of Poserdom.

The single figure concept for everyone is dead. We use whatever figure we want to use, based on our interests, budget, and skill level with Poser - the more familiar we are with the tools and add-ons, the more choices we have.

I never said otherwise

Now, vendor support...

It is and is not important - depending on skill level, time, and creativity (or lack thereof.) The Prosumer crowd (/me waves at Wolf) won't care - they'll make what they need, and do what they want. The Newbie crowd? They're the ones doing all the buying (and downloading if it's a freebie). They're the ones whose first contact is with the stuff that came in-the-box. Everyone in-between? If the default figure is awesome and well-supported, and is exclusive (esp. in features) to Poser, then guess what application the user is going to stick with?

Vendor support for a figure is frickin' HUGE. Sure, there's WW/XD, there's all kinds of other conversion tools out there... but unless you're a crusty old fart who has used Poser ever since it came on floppies (and when everyone complained about titties+temples over NNTP in alt.binaries.poser), you're not going have those extra tools, or a workflow to make efficient use of them.

I get the accessory and clothing diversity angles, but we'll table that. I believe a basic set of clothing and tools for merchies to make other clothing, with other incentives to get them started on that, should be sufficient. It's the flexibility that counts.

I won't table it - It is directly related to vendor financial health. A LOT of people here conflate Poser health with that of vendors - they are 2 completely separate issues. No one has ever bought a new version of Poser for the figures - we buy for the tools. In 2019, if vendors want to halt declining sales, they need to up their game and understand the marketplace as it is, not how they wish it was. Which brings us to....

No one has ever bought Poser for the figures (ever since Vicky 1 came out), because DAZ, Curious Labs, EGISys, and Smith Micro all semi-conspired to force that issue a very long time ago.

This kind of needs to change. I'm pretty sure it will, too - Rendo is a marketplace. It now owns Poser. Why would they not want to establish and maintain a symbiotic relationship between the marketplace and the application? They can keep the marketplace open for competition (because only a fool turns down moar monay from continuing to sell Genesis stuff on the side), but I strongly suspect that their main focus is going to be on Poser, and stuff for Poser, and a stronger symbiosis between the two.

LF is the latest figure out - why should I use it? She isn't any better supported than Pauline - and no one has demonstrated why she is better than say, Sasha-16.

Why should I pay for a figure for LF that looks EXACTLY like the character that the vendor made for: Alyson 2 (Anastasia), Victoria 4 (GND 4.3), Victoria 3 (GND2), Stephanie Petite 3 (Irina). Hi Blackhearted!

This is the situation for most character vendors.

shrug Time marches on. Use what you use. Rendo/Poser's focus is likely to be to find a way to stop this endless cycle from happening... with one set of figures. Figures that have a roadmap, that have tools for vendors to build against, that have all the advantages that flavor-of-the-month does not have. But, they gotta start somewhere, and that means either building something completely from scratch, adapting the (because historically) craptastic default figures they have now, or buy something kickass and go with that as a base for future growth.

No matter which way they go, they gotta start somewhere.

One other bit... they're not going to be doing all of this for you. Or, to be honest, they're not going to do this for me either. They need to do it for all the newbies who have yet to buy Poser.

Seriously, their priority should not be you or me - to hell with us in this case.

Their future depends on new users. On growth. On capturing users form the competition.

If they focus on all the whiny crap spewing from the keyboards of us old farts, they'll end up dead roughly a month before the last of us dies. Dude - I first slid into this world just barely after turning 30. I turned 50 this week... Fifty. Yeah, I have way more disposable income than a 30-year-old, and I already know the basics more than enough to be fully proficient w/ Poser.latest in less than a dedicated weekend, but Rendo does not want to make crusty old loudmouths like us their target demographic.

There are literally thousands of hookerware outfits. Why should I buy another one @ $15 - especially when it isn't any better made than content that was made a decade ago (and can be picked up for between $1.99 to $3.50).

So go use a converter?

The idea behind one favored set of supported figures is that you don't have to buy the same stuff over and over (and over...)

Okay, I promised I wasn't going to do this comparison stuff, but... the Genesis figures allow me to use stuff made for Genesis versions 1-8, and (with an add-on script) Vicky 4 as well. It takes literally one-to-three clicks in a popup window to fit old well-made crap onto the latest-and-greatest figure, no matter the morphs, with no poke-through, and it scales perfectly in 99% of clothing and hair. Part of this is projection-mapping/collision-detection, but a big part of is is that the target figure is a lineage of one very well-maintained mesh/topo combo.

Cool part is, Poser can have that too! Well, they can have it if they go to a curated set of default figures that Rendo in turn puts focus on...

What is your plan to get end users to move to a new figure en mass? That is a requirement for vendor support.

Default is default. Make a solid default, and it will grow fairly decently. Supply enough stuff (morphs, basic clothing, hair, etc) to get them started.

Oh, and one big item: make an in-app converter that gets all (or at least most) of the Genesis and Vicky stuff to fit onto the new figure with a minimum of effort. And yes, this can be done.

What is your plan to get vendors to support that figure? Most vendors here didn't make 1 product for any post-V4 figure. That question has never been answered.

Chicken-and-egg - I get it. But...

1. General incentive: Rendo can do a 80-20 split (80% in the merchie's favor) for all items which support $newFigure. Do that until it grows sufficiently to stand on its own.

2. Specific incentives. Pay for a few select top-notch vendors to make a basic variety of stuff for your new figure. Poser has done this before, with varying degrees of success, but note that this will only work if the figure doesn't suck.

3. Get vendors in on the new figure early. Let them beta-test while they make stuff for it.

There's lots of ideas and methods they can employ to get their figure out there...

The rest is a list of stuff I perfectly agree with. :)

ssgbryan posted at 12:31PM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357421

What is your plan to get end users to move to a new figure en mass? That is a requirement for vendor support. What is your plan to get vendors to support that figure? Most vendors here didn't make 1 product for any post-V4 figure. That question has never been answered.

I suspect Renderosity's plan for this is to make LaFemme and her male counterpart the stock Poser figures, included free with Poser.

Admittedly, that's never worked before, but as has been discussed previously in this thread, the stock Poser figures have been pretty flawed before, and not fixed. And we all knew they would throw them out in favor of new, equally flawed figures with the next version of Poser.

I'm hoping that Rosity, as a content seller, does it differently. Start with good stock figures, and commit to improving them, rather than starting over with every version of Poser. I would love to be able to use La Femme in the Face Room.

I like Dawn, too, and use her, but I suspect Hivewire's commitment to supporting both DS and Poser has slowed down her development and support. We need a true Poser-only figure, IMO.

Penguinisto posted at 12:19PM Fri, 19 July 2019 - #4357492

So one segment has what you need, the other does not. Figure out why, and you've solved a lot of issues.

Vendors have told us why - they are expensive, and they don't feel the ROI will pay for it.

Morphs without skin textures is pointless.

This however, crosses a line between the casual end-user and the prosumer (full pros would have most of their stuff and mods homemade anyways unless there's a time crunch).

In the Poser 4/5 era, that required prosumer skills - but not in 2019. Buy a copy of Texture Transformer (for the price of a character) and click a couple of boxes - done. Need that skin texture converted for use with Superfly? Download EZ-Skin (free), install, click 2 boxes - done.

First: Forget DS here - I'm not trying to sell you on that app and our opinions will always differ.

DAZ can't sell me on the app and its free. It is very poorly coded (everything the user interacts with is on the same thread), and is designed for 1 hardware/software type (Windows boxen w/Nvidia graphics) It runs poorly on Windows and worse on a 12 core/24 thread MacPro w/96 GB of ram.

Let's talk Poser. If something is missing...

Low level scripters have stepped up in the past and delivered (PhilC, Netherworks, Dimension3D, etc), If you can script in Python, you can develop add-ons. You don't need to hire a 6 figure programmer - hire a Python code monkey and HAVE A CLEAR SCOPE OF WORK. Because at some point, you have to shoot the coder and get the product into production.

So yeah - stuff that you want (and that I want!) won't be present - be it features, functionality, or assets. Note that none of this solves the question of what makes a good figure. Let's table it for a moment though.

But it does allow me a wider choice of potential figures - one mesh means I am limited to what that small group of vendors decided to sell - I prefer choice, especially when 95% Caucasians isn't working for me.

So, if Dawn were indeed the V4-Killer, why isn't it the defacto-default, and why is it not the most dominant Poser-exclusive supported item in the Marketplace? Why is world+dog chasing the new-shiny with LaFemme right now? Finally, (and most importantly) which one will Rendo/Poser pick to put in as default w/ the app?

You weren't here when Dawn was released - I was (and bought over 95% of the content that was released for it here). She wasn't well supported for the following reasons:

1. She was released with only a starter set of morphs - At the time, most Poser character vendors were dial-spinners - they don't sculpt out figures in Zbrush (they lacked the skills and the software). So, they didn't have much to work with.

2. Chris decided that making that stupid horse was more important than building out a full set of head, body, and expression morphs. That was a major (if not the) major factor. The Hivewire figures now have a very robust set of morphs, but the damage is already done (here - there is a fairly robust ecosystem over at hivewire).

3. Vendors get a better split if they sell their content over at Hivewire. See above.

4. Most of the stuff made for Dawn here wasn't very good - (Sturgeon's Law - 90% of everything is crap ). Content here was mostly built for Poser 6, and didn't use any features in Poser 9. Many vendors were adamant that they were not going to change their workflow and prepare for a brave new Vickyless world. Content sold at Hivewire was built with Poser 9 in mind - it was better.

5. 'Rosity forum mods at the time allowed Genesis vendors to run wild spreading F.U.D. At the same time, Poser vendors were whining that they didn't like her shoulders (aesthetically, not over a technical issue). They also expected V4 levels of sales from day 1 - which was delusional, since there wasn't enough content released to get that level of sales. Every post-V4 figure release devolves into a Waiting for Godot situation - Customers won't invest in a figure if there is no content, and vendors won't build content until a large portion of the customer base has bought the base figure. Nowadays, we buy the new figure, if the vendors choose not to support it, we use the tools in Poser (and add-ons) to use that figure, and future vendor sales are lost.

6. 'Rosity didn't exactly encourage vendors to leave V4 behind. 'Rosity nailed their colors to V4 - smart short term - dumb long term.

When I finally get off my butt and buy Poser, it's prolly the first figure I'll reach for because I know, trust, and respect the hell out of Chris and his work.

Now I understand why you have no understanding of Poser and it's tool set. It isn't Poser 4.

That said, I don;t think it's the Vicky-killer. Given Rendo's recent purchase, coupled with their need to direct the masses to their marketplace (and not Chris' enterprise over at Hivewire), I suspect that Dawn will get the cold(er) shoulder pretty soon. LaFemme will be an easier purchase for Rendo (or PE? Who knows? The tea leaves say LaFemme, though.) I'm betting that's what ends up being the Next Default in Poser.

Nice strawman. Poser doesn't need a V4-killer (because no one will ever agree to what those killer features are, much less what makes a good figure). What we really need is an easy way to move shoes between figures. That is the last frontier.

Whatever figure is chosen - V4 (and content made for her) isn't going away. This belief that a new figure will suddenly expand the Poserverse isn't based in reality. That belief comes from 2nd tier vendors desire to recreate Oct 2007 - and that ain't happening. Poser users are no longer totally at the mercy of vendor whims and "creativity" Poser users simply embrace and extend any figure to any level they choose - vendors are no longer the gatekeepers and they really resent that.

I'm betting there was more than a little behind-the-scenes going on to keep Dawn tamped-down a bit. Nothing blatant, but competition is competition. I assign no judgement either way, but I'm not going to ignore market realities, either.

I didn't address it for a reason - that can of worms doesn't need opening (here - it is addressed over there. In any event, water over the bridge.)

LF has the same support as Pauline (and mostly by the same vendors that have gotten behind other post-V4 figures). if it wasn't for Karanta, it would already be DOA as far as clothing, for example - the vendors are not embracing her.

Something has to be default. Something has to come with the application to get folks started. Some one figure type (that is, one adult female, one adult male, one kid mesh that can be boy or girl) has to be the one which comes out of the box.

Vendors and customers aren't dumping everything for a better mousetrap, because no one can agree what is a better mousetrap. We have over a decade of empirical evidence of this.

I know about the past - in the earliest days, Poser had megatons of support for Posette. Then Vicky showed up, and all the support started shifting towards it. Eventually, the default figures has zero support, Vicky 3 began to domainte, and then Vicky 4 sucked all the oxygen out of the room (sure, there were figures that were up-and-comers, and niche figures which did okay in their own right, but let's be honest here - the vast, vast majority of stuff was made for one figure, and one figure alone... Victoria.)

And in 2019 it doesn't matter who content was made for originally. V4 and G content is easily switched between the G figures in DS and all content is easily switched between all figures in Poser - but notice - both products have robust (although differing) methods of moving content between figures. That is because neither flagship program storefront can survive with what has been made for just 1 figure.

V4 was a significant upgrade in capabilities compared to V3 and Sydney. But that wasn't what sold V4 to the masses. What sold V4 to the masses was every storefront was flooded with content. Most of it sold at a loss. Most of the content sold the 1st couple of months was less than $5 (I got receipts). None of the post-V4 figures came with a semi-useful set of clothing on launch - nor was any of it sold as a loss-leader.

Sure, there will always be other figures. There will always be competing figurines, and it may even be a healthy competition. BUT... only one figure will get front-and-center promotion, attention, and the majority of vendor support. Trying to deny that is like trying to deny the most obvious fact (and complaint) in the last two decades of Poserdom.

If we were still using Poser 4 that would be a valid argument - but we aren't. People using post-V4 figures tend to embrace new features. Nobody buying or selling at hivewire are worrying too much about any other post-V4 figure. The majority of Poser vendors here are still supporting V4 as their main breadwinner. Any demands to change that falls on deaf ears.

Now, vendor support... It is and is not important - depending on skill level, time, and creativity (or lack thereof.) The Prosumer crowd (/me waves at Wolf) won't care - they'll make what they need, and do what they want. The Newbie crowd? They're the ones doing all the buying (and downloading if it's a freebie). They're the ones whose first contact is with the stuff that came in-the-box. Everyone in-between? If the default figure is awesome and well-supported, and is exclusive (esp. in features) to Poser, then guess what application the user is going to stick with?

But that isn't what has been happening here for the past decade. In 2004, when I bought Poser 5, there was a very, very wide variety of content available for it. That is no longer the case. I was sold on Poser because I could make any scene in my head - in 2019, we can make pin up art, with early 20's Caucasians - because that is the only thing being made now.

Pushing on with that thought..... If I am NOT a Caucasian, why would I buy Poser or DS? There is very little that would fit me. Nothing but white girls, as far as the eye can see. All wearing trashy outfits.

Vendor support for a figure is frickin' HUGE. Sure, there's WW/XD, there's all kinds of other conversion tools out there... but unless you're a crusty old fart who has used Poser ever since it came on floppies (and when everyone complained about titties+temples over NNTP in alt.binaries.poser), you're not going have those extra tools, or a workflow to make efficient use of them.

This is like someone telling a soldier today that they should do things the way the Army of the Potomac did it in the American Civil War. The workflow you remember is gone. Tools are either built in (fitting room or WW), the price of an outfit (Creator's Toybox, Batch Material Converter, Hair Control System, etc, etc, etc), or are free (Ez-Skin).

The fitting room is literally just a few (4) clicks (this applies to everything - it is just a couple of clicks). Most legacy figures are already available weight mapped, download a file, install, and go. Upping the subdivision is simply clicking a check box and entering the level of division you want (and your system memory can support). Adding control chips is a few clicks. The knowledge level necessary to this is just the desire to do it - no Poser-Fu required. Everything is literally a couple of clicks away (which is yet another reason that getting everyone to buy into a new figure is so hard). It is SO easy to decouple content from figures.

I get the accessory and clothing diversity angles,

The way you dismiss it, you clearly don't. If I want to make anything outside of pin up art - my choices are:

1. Convert legacy content to a new figure.
2. Continue to use legacy figures.
3. Import/convert content from DS.

My choice is Yes. I do all three, based on what I need. Genesis 1 still has the best non-humans, and the G figures provide kids, and skins to harvest (and doesn't that sound creepy?) The USS Enterprise has 460 positions on it - can't live by 6 foot tall white folks only.

No one has ever bought Poser for the figures (ever since Vicky 1 came out), because DAZ, Curious Labs, EGISys, and Smith Micro all semi-conspired to force that issue a very long time ago.

Nice strawman. Zygote (now DAZ) was set up for the sole purpose of making content for Poser. The Poser team focused on Poser, Daz made content. Poser figures were designed to show the capabilities of the program - which is why we see new Poser figures with every new version and Daz figures in 3d Porn. Daz developed DS because of concerns about the viability of Poser's various parent companies over the years. Which is amusing when you consider that the folks that made the Poser/DS ecosystem great (and Steve Kondris) are all gone, and DAZ has been sold a couple of times too.

They can keep the marketplace open for competition (because only a fool turns down moar monay from continuing to sell Genesis stuff on the side), but I strongly suspect that their main focus is going to be on Poser, and stuff for Poser, and a stronger symbiosis between the two.

They still have to figure out how to:

1. Get vendors on board with a post-V4 figure (so far, no joy).

2. Get customers to abandon low priced content for (relatively) expensive content - all while not showing why it is a good idea (No one has ever shown how the newer figures "bend better". LF doesn't bend any better than Sasha-16.

There are a LOT of fools in the DS/Poserverse. - DAZ was adamant that the G figures would never get Poser support. A short while later a DSON importer arrived. Shortly thereafter, they quietly added Poser Companion Files to nearly every Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 product sold at DAZ. The didn't do that out of the goodness of their black hearts - they did it because there aren't enough folks buying DS content to keep the lights on in Utah. Likewise Poser fans have yammered for years about getting the golum into Poser - a free script will do that, no muss, no fuss - a few clicks in DS, followed by a few clicks in Poser - G3 and G8 content is now Poser native - now go make tacky pin-up art.

Rendo/Poser's focus is likely to be to find a way to stop this endless cycle from happening... with one set of figures. Figures that have a roadmap, that have tools for vendors to build against, that have all the advantages that flavor-of-the-month does not have. But, they gotta start somewhere, and that means either building something completely from scratch, adapting the (because historically) craptastic default figures they have now, or buy something kickass and go with that as a base for future growth.

Later figures weren't bad - they simply weren't supported - don't confuse Don and Judy with Paul and Pauline.

Their future depends on new users. On growth. On capturing users form the competition.

That model isn't working for DAZ - if it was, they wouldn't be putting most of their content on sale at 70% off at the drop of a hat. If they were a stock, I'd short them - they are showing classic signs of a company with cash flow problems.

I first slid into this world just barely after turning 30. I turned 50 this week... Fifty. Yeah, I have way more disposable income than a 30-year-old, and I already know the basics more than enough to be fully proficient w/ Poser.latest in less than a dedicated weekend, but Rendo does not want to make crusty old loudmouths like us their target demographic.

Young pup - much like Jon Snow, you know nothing. You have no understanding of the lighting system, the materials system, or the fitting room. Your prior knowledge extends to the rooms that haven't been updated since Poser 5. (Cloth room, Hair room) None of the tricks and shortcuts from the Poser 4/5 era are valid with Poser 11.

You have an entirely new workflow to learn - that will take more than a dedicated weekend (you'll need that just to learn the interface that was redone for Poser 8) - hell, it will take you weeks just to pick up the lighting system (The P4 lighting system was culled a few years ago - the code is gone). Materials - same thing (Do not fear the compound node - it is good). The good news is that converting your content to use either firefly or superfly is just 2 clicks away via (free) EZ-Skin - the hard work is already done.

'Rosity should focus on folks that spend money - newbies or grognards. That 30 year old will treat any Poser/DS digital asset like they treat any other digital asset (they will steal it via file sharing).

Most of the users and vendors are of our demographic - they aren't making anything for the kids. Poser/DS also requires a real computer, not a laptop (ask me how I know), which will also eliminate a lot of folks, because they are too cheap to spend a couple hundred dollars on a dedicated machine. The more you try to do, the more horsepower you need. It is real easy to talk yourself into building a render farm for your home (cheaper than a new video card - ask me how I know) while using a workstation as your main machine - (96Gb of ram is a wonderful thing).

You may have been around a couple more years than me (I do remember you from back in the day) - but you certainly haven't been keeping any of the lights on in either Utah or Tennessee. I stopped tracking expenditures when I crossed the $10,000 barrier a few years back. 'Rosity (and DAZ) are very interested in what I want to buy.

Okay, I promised I wasn't going to do this comparison stuff, but... the Genesis figures allow me to use stuff made for Genesis versions 1-8, and (with an add-on script) Vicky 4 as well. It takes literally one-to-three clicks in a popup window to fit old well-made crap onto the latest-and-greatest figure, no matter the morphs, with no poke-through, and it scales perfectly in 99% of clothing and hair. Part of this is projection-mapping/collision-detection, but a big part of is is that the target figure is a lineage of one very well-maintained mesh/topo combo.

There is nothing wrong with comparing DS figures with Poser figures, perfectly valid. If you are in 3d hobbyist art, it is pretty much your only choices.

I have those scripts - they will cost you about $500 for all of them (ask me how I know). They are rarely discounted. And most of the time, they even work. The G figure is fine - right up until you do a TCO analysis - then you take them out of your cart (unless they are at least 60% off).

Cool part is, Poser can have that too! Well, they can have it if they go to a curated set of default figures that Rendo in turn puts focus on...

What is even cooler is that Poser ALREADY has those tools - which you would know if you had a current copy of Poser - and they work will ANY figure, not just one. Most are free, some are the cost of an outfit, and some are built into the program.

Default is default. Make a solid default, and it will grow fairly decently. Supply enough stuff (morphs, basic clothing, hair, etc) to get them started.

You have been away. That has been done multiple times already - vendors will ALWAYS find a reason NOT to support a new figure - and that reason will NEVER be applied to the figure they do support. It is what it is. Good news is that I can use any figure I like, and dress it in any clothing I like - my choice, not the vendor's choice.

Oh, and one big item: make an in-app converter that gets all (or at least most) of the Genesis and Vicky stuff to fit onto the new figure with a minimum of effort. And yes, this can be done.

Yes, it can be done - There is 1 (free) script to convert DS native content to Poser native content, then off to the fitting room. Vendors will tell you it isn't good enough to make content for sale, but for an end-user, it is more than good enough.

1. General incentive: Rendo can do a 80-20 split (80% in the merchie's favor) for all items which support $newFigure. Do that until it grows sufficiently to stand on its own.

2. Specific incentives. Pay for a few select top-notch vendors to make a basic variety of stuff for your new figure. Poser has done this before, with varying degrees of success, but note that this will only work if the figure doesn't suck.

3. Get vendors in on the new figure early. Let them beta-test while they make stuff for it.

There's lots of ideas and methods they can employ to get their figure out there...

The rest is a list of stuff I perfectly agree with. :)

1. Won't keep the lights on - because that isn't going to get people to give up the figures they like - especially when the vendors insist on making the exact same products for a new figure.

2. They do that (usually by buying the content).

3. That has also been done.

I have always recommended going with a Kickstarter type funding mechanism, but much like anything new, vendors here aren't interested in it.

ssgbryan posted at 8:56AM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357518

The majority of Poser vendors here are still supporting V4 as their main breadwinner. Any demands to change that falls on deaf ears.

This whole post is nothing more than your typical screed against vendors, but this line especially is so old and so tired and so not true, I have to respond.

Here's a clue for you: I made more sales in 2.5 WEEKS on Renderosity with La Femme, than I made in ** 2 YEARS** at Hivewire on Dawn, Dusk and Luna content.

So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

Glitterati3D posted at 9:54AM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357539

ssgbryan posted at 8:56AM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357518

The majority of Poser vendors here are still supporting V4 as their main breadwinner. Any demands to change that falls on deaf ears.

This whole post is nothing more than your typical screed against vendors, but this line especially is so old and so tired and so not true, I have to respond.

Here's a clue for you: I made more sales in 2.5 WEEKS on Renderosity with La Femme, than I made in ** 2 YEARS** at Hivewire on Dawn, Dusk and Luna content.

So, stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

I have to say this is true for me as well.

I loved Dawn - and more importantly, it was wonderful to work with the HW3d people, so much so that I actually teared up a little when I told them I was gonna be a Renderosity-exclusive vendor when LF came around - but honestly? Renderosity is offering me the same delight in working with them, so I can't justify keeping to the lower sales with Dawn. She is technically great, but she can't really offer me the exposure that a Renderosity-pushed figure can.

And I'm going full sincere here: being angry that a vendor wants sales is like being angry that Disney is forking out a bunch of movies for the money. As an angry anarchist-like not-so-youth-anymore, I hate capitalism as much as the next punk guy, but I still live in it. I gotta pay those bills. Sometimes I'll make something just for the passion of it, but that's when I have enough drive to keep making in my free time the same kind of thing I'm making in my work time. What I CAN do is try to mix my passion with what sells - I'll bring out that fantasy and mix it into the everyday-sexy-stuff that seems to sell better.

Wanting someone to make elderly auntie characters for Poser is all fun and good, but when a vendor spends a month of work making that and only sees like five people actually purchase it, you don't have to think that "vendors aren't creative". You have to think that "vendors aren't willing to work 8h/day for a month for a total of US$30".

And I get that you don't want your passionate hobby to turn into a business. I really do. Still, money is what keeps things running in our society, as sad as that may be - and if we don't keep that money going around, the program will be abandoned. So yeah, you need your beta testers that have an outside look to it and will check the technical things, but you ALSO need your vendor beta testers that will take a look at a thing and think "that's way too complicated for casual users, that's not gonna sell" and similar things.

That's why it's beta testerS, not beta tester singular form. And this strike against vendors isn't gonna get anyone anywhere, it only benefits Poser that we have different types of users for it.

@Peng & ssgbryan: you both are making really good points and providing a very interesting Dialogue to read IMHO

On the matter of growth, In general true growth only comes from gaining NEW users/buyers into your ecosystem.

This is an economic fact of capitalism.

A good strategic plan to, achieve this, involves learning ,the specific consumer/cultural/economic mindset of the Target demographic you are trying to capture.

I can name three companies that have been failing ,quite spectacularly, in this endeavour IMHO:

Daz Inc.

Reallusion

Lets lump every owner of Poser since the P5 days as one group .

That model isn't working for DAZ - if it was, they wouldn't be putting

most of their content on sale at 70% off at the drop of a hat. If they

were a stock, I'd short them - they are showing classic signs of a

company with cash flow problems.

I actually agree with this assessment ....to a point It is not that the model of capturing users from the competition or from outside of this market space entirely ..is flawed

It is the methods ,used by these three companies, to entice these much needed newcomers thus far, that have laid bare a complete ignorance of the consumer/cultural/economic mindset of those prospective new users/buyers.

Take Daz's Attempt to capitalize on the Multi-billion dollar Gaming industry.

https://venturebeat.com/2018/04/30/newzoo-global-games-expected-to-hit-180-1-billion-in-revenues-2021/

First "Morph 3D": Daz's attempt to capture the Unity Game dev Demographic.

They took the genesis 2 figures and content and crunch down the vertex count a bit call it the 'MCS "and use the EXACT same marketing methods of still renders of tall Pretty Northern European people (mostly girls),that you used in the main Daz store to sell& resell to the
Digital content hoarding ,OOhhh ,Me too!!, make a picture, crowd.

Not one single promo VIDEO of their content in action in a game build. (See Blizzards "Overwatch")

No stylized ,over the top, villain Characters in motion with cool weapons etc (See Blizzards "Overwatch")

Just the same Daz store promo style images of Pretty white people standing there looking like..pretty white people.

As though Unity gamers have never seen sexy white women in a game before.

Then they re-brand the site to "Morph ID" and claim to have a custom online tool to make & dress avatars for "The OASIS" as in the movie "Ready Player One" ....fail.

Now they have become something called "Tafi" again promoting some scheme to sell "monetized" Avatars on the "VIVE" headgear platform and other "Mobile devices."

One afternoon spent in any major gaming forum would have spared them this ongoing Debacle

Next: the DaztoMaya plugin the Genesis 8 to Maya plugin and the DSON based DEX plugin coming this fall.

All plugins providing various levels of native genesis functionality inside Autodesk Maya. The DSON based DEX being the most complete from what they have shown publicly.and what has been shown is a Demo video of someone loading a Gen 8 female ,(big surprise) and clicking and loading clothing/poses/Character morphs directly from their installed daz content libraries inside Autodesk Maya.

Now they may get some new store content sales from those solo user ,tinkerers taking advantage the extremely liberal Student license policy of Autodesk.

However NONE of the major Animation & VFX companies will use a system that cannot have the assets on a shared server for large teams of Character TD's & VFX artist to access at the same time via a complex linux based file referencing system.

Daz studio requires separate purchased copies of content to be installed on every machine .

Reallusion decides to improve their native Avatar quality in an attempyt to become more than just a Middlware solution for pre vis and character motion retargeting & export to other programs.

They create the $200USD Character creator 3, and for some Bizarre reason, include the DUMB unidirectional brute force path tracer from NVIDIA..IRay

Utterly useless to the current user base, spoiled by realtime viewport motionbuilding in iclone, or any newcomer seeking the realtime motionbuilding tools of Iclone.

No Daz user will switch to iclone for stills/pinups as they already have IRay in Daz studio without paying $200 USD

Their Character creator 3 promo videos targeting the game dev community, are very well done.

However they dont really let on that you are going to really need to buy the full pipeline version of iclone $700+ USD to have any the required export capabilities to your game engine.

$700 USD can buy ALOT of cool goodies &plugins in the Unity& UE4 markets.

Now reallusion has a Live link plugin for UNREAL 4 to have your Iclone Avatar in UE4 excellent realtime renderer, being controlled live remotely from iclone

$1000 USD on top of the cost of buying Iclone 7 For a demographic that paid Zero dollars for their main game engine.

Now to be fair we have not seen any hint of Bondware's strategic plan to bring in NEW poser users or even where any new users are going to come from.

It remains to be seen if they will break from the FAILED approach of selling poo-ware ornamental program updates to the die hard loyalists,practiced by their many predecessors.

They better have a really REALLY good plan before targeting any demographic NOT currently use Poser or Daz studio, as this market has many alternative options for people looking to play/create with 3D/CG Virtual humans.

That model isn't working for DAZ - if it was, they wouldn't be putting most of their content on sale at 70% off at the drop of a hat. If they were a stock, I'd short them - they are showing classic signs of a company with cash flow problems.

Not sure I buy that one. People have been predicting the imminent demise of DAZ since they released DS, if not longer. But they're still here. I don't shop there much any more, because I don't use DS or Genesis, but clearly, others do.

Those huge sales have always been part of the DAZ marketing plan, and I don't think it means anything about their cash flow. It just means that if you buy at full price at DAZ, you've overpaid.

randym77 posted at 11:19AM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357557

Not sure I buy that one. People have been predicting the imminent demise of DAZ since they released DS, if not longer. But they're still here. I don't shop there much any more, because I don't use DS or Genesis, but clearly, others do.

Those huge sales have always been part of the DAZ marketing plan, and I don't think it means anything about their cash flow. It just means that if you buy at full price at DAZ, you've overpaid.

Most of those people were predicting that because of there emotional involvement with Poser and DAZ. DAZ has made multiple attempts to wean their user base off sales - all have failed. My personal favorite was the It's not fair! thread a couple forum reboots ago.

I would not have predicted DAZ failing during G1, G2, or G3, or even the early part of the G8 era.

Some of the things that I think are significant at the store (but don't tie in with what Wolf is talking about - he is operating out of a different space (animation) than I am and is providing more data points:

1. A lot of vendors didn't make the jump from G3 to G8. The "cool kids" are still cranking out stuff, but a lot of folks that don't have access to the secret sauce tools appear to be bowing out. A lot of the DS vendors I liked are no longer making content at DAZ (ironman13 in particular)

2. They are also running out of ideas. They have redone Aiko 3 and the teenager 3 times already - neither the 2nd or the 3rd iteration have any significant differences. How many upscale hotel rooms can you reasonably sell - How many living rooms with only 1 door can you sell? (Crap like that would have never made it past QA in the V4/M4 era). QA is another issue - a bikini with 1Gb of textures. Seriously? A 3 piece suit that can only be worn standing up (and doesn't button to boot?!)

3. A lot of G8 content is recycled G3 content (like we don't notice that Riversoft's conversion scripts exist.)

4. The frequency sales, and what is being sold at 70% off, along with what is being given away (They no longer give away new content - they have a collection of about 100 items and they just recycle them through the freebie's page - and nothing for G8).

5. Gift Card sales are becoming more frequent - that has gone from being a rare thing, to a thing that is done at the end of a fiscal quarter, to a fairly regular occurrence. People buy those and then use them with.....

6. 70% off sales - those have gone from a few items to literally thousands of items. And DAZ isn't even doing it intelligently. It is one thing to put legacy figures on sale for 58 - 72% off. It is a whole 'nuther ball of wax to also do that with sets and props - those can be used with any figure. When they started putting Stonemason's stuff on heavy discount - cash flow problems....

7. The real thing that has me thinking this is the stealth additions of PCFs for Genesis 1 & 2 content. If you were around during the schism , you know how insistent they were that they would never do anything to make using G figures in Poser easy.

I am not talking about things that were released with PCFs, I am talking about all of my G1 & G2 content (purchased a number of years ago) that suddenly sprouted PCFs sometime in the past year or so - they certainly didn't send me a notice about it.

DAZ may talk about us - but they don't appear to be able to live without us.....

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 12:51PM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357545

I have to say this is true for me as well.

Wanting someone to make elderly auntie characters for Poser is all fun and good, but when a vendor spends a month of work making that and only sees like five people actually purchase it, you don't have to think that "vendors aren't creative". You have to think that "vendors aren't willing to work 8h/day for a month for a total of US$30".

And I get that you don't want your passionate hobby to turn into a business. I really do. Still, money is what keeps things running in our society, as sad as that may be - and if we don't keep that money going around, the program will be abandoned. So yeah, you need your beta testers that have an outside look to it and will check the technical things, but you ALSO need your vendor beta testers that will take a look at a thing and think "that's way too complicated for casual users, that's not gonna sell" and similar things.

That's why it's beta testerS, not beta tester singular form. And this strike against vendors isn't gonna get anyone anywhere, it only benefits Poser that we have different types of users for it.

Poser isn't getting different types of users if only one type of content is available.

Coming back to what makes a "good" figure.

From a buyer's point of view - it is a figure that has the widest variety of content - a wider artistic vision is possible. Much like communism, Better Bending is a red herring.

In 2019, this means V4. I don't like that any more than anyone else here does but that doesn't change the fact that the end user doesn't buy into a new figure if it bends better - they buy into it because it allows them to execute their artistic vision; better bending only matters if they are nekkid (as they say in Tennessee).

Currently, every post-V4 figure is a young white girl with better bending and vendors by and large only make buy me drinkie outfits to go with it. None of them have gained any ground against a 12 year old mesh. Every couple of years, we get yet another pretty white girl, and and a few trashy outfits to go with her. Rinse, Lather, Repeat. They all bend better, they all look more or less alike, and all have more or less the same limited selection of outfits. Only a small portion of the user base has adopted them.

And we have more white girls inbound....

So far, this hasn't been a recipe for success.

For a few years now, I have been recommending going with a kickstarter style mechanism to get away from buy me drinkie girls. Vendors do this elsewhere and it seem to be working for them. 'Rosity would be a great place to host something like that. We have to grow the ability of vendors to make a living, because what we have right now doesn't appear to be working. The reality is that end-users that stick around (and more importantly, buy stuff) grow in their art. Making 3rd rate pin up art is fun for the 1st six months or so but then it becomes well, boring. In 2019, expanding your artistic vision means:

1. Using figures like V4,
2. Harvesting legacy content for newer figures,
3. Importing G figures into Poser,
4. Abandoning Poser for DS, or
5. Abandoning 3d art entirely.

If we aren't comfortable with learning the Poser toolset, we stick with V4 and make art . If we become proficient with the Poser tool set - we end up harvesting legacy content and moving it onto newer figures (My option). Notice that either option doesn't provide much opportunity for new vendor sales.

Example: I have 2 sets of graphic novels I am working on (1 TOS Star Trek; 1 horror, set in rural 'Murika, about 50 miles from 'Rosity world headquarters).

Character demographics for the 1st are based on world population percentages, the second are based on population percentages of the actual location. Guess what! Tall, big boobed, early 20's white girls don't actually make up 90% of the population. In the 1st, they make up about 3 - 4%. In the second, they don't exist - 1. Woman are average sized, and vary between obese and morbidly obese - nor are there much in the way of the early - mid 20's demographic - most left as soon as they graduate from the local high school (no jobs, no future in rural 'Murika).

Penguinisto posted at 6:15PM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357492

No one has ever bought a new version of Poser for the figures - we buy for the tools. In 2019, if vendors want to halt declining sales, they need to up their game and understand the marketplace as it is, not how they wish it was. Which brings us to....

Yes, they do.

It's "the picture on the box." A NEW user is going to buy what they "see." They will pay attention to things they know, like "you can do animations" and "there's a nekkid figure" and "you can make do picture." Those customers will be buying Poser based on what they "see" and, largely, that's going to be a "figure."

An old Poser fart, like either of us and others, is going to buy Poser based on "what we see" and "what we know" too. Our knowledge is just a bit more in depth and esoteric than a new user's.

But, Poser development and marketing has largely focused on... who? People who already own a version of Poser. Sure, that's a good tactic, but you can not ignore trying to attract new customers. Old customers die. The biggest "new customer move" Poser has done are the "game dev" inclusions for import/export ease-of-use.

Okay, I promised I wasn't going to do this comparison stuff, but... the Genesis figures allow me to use stuff made for Genesis versions 1-8, and (with an add-on script) Vicky 4 as well. It takes literally one-to-three clicks in a popup window to fit old well-made crap onto the latest-and-greatest figure, no matter the morphs, with no poke-through, and it scales perfectly in 99% of clothing and hair. Part of this is projection-mapping/collision-detection, but a big part of is is that the target figure is a lineage of one very well-maintained mesh/topo combo.

^--- This.

Everyone wants "a new figure." Then, when they come out, it means everyone has to either take a second mortgage to buy products to get half the functionality out of the new figure that they currently get out of their old one or else end up buying what amounts to a figure that has much less usefulness to them in the long-run.

Then, there's the rush of substandard product releases for the new figure that make that new, wonderfully constructed, V4-Killer, had the best demigodlike figure modelers "in the business" creating it, look like a piece of crap... And, with absolutely no stewardship of any product lines because people are afraid to tell anyone that their "artistic talent" is not equitable to their "technical skill"... the figure gets a few morphs that are just variations on "surprised hobo" and some clothing items that have been rigged with copy/paste and little else.

Thus... the figure dies a grisly death. Why? _ "'Cause I've already fixed all the "surprised hobo" morphs for V4 I have and have already fine-tuned my existing library of badly rigged and horribly textured 100's of freebie and purchased crap. Why should I go through all that for yet another figure that, in the end, will not have much else produced for it that I would want to buy, anyway?"_

"Technical" stuffs matter to current users who know what's up... That is very important. But, it's not "everything." Focusing too much on "this figure is technically better" is an engineering issue, probably pushed by scripters and programmers who have delved deep into the guts of CR2s, but aren't primarily "artists." A truly good figure takes a marriage of both artist and technically skilled craftsperson.

But, to sell such a figure and to make it successful? That requires focused stewardship and knowledge of the true marketplace.

Someone above, dunno who, mentioned the disconnect between a vendor's potential imagination of what the marketplace is versus what the marketplace actually is. This is A Real Thing ™. This is why there are specialist occupations in the real world. This is why an artist aggressively pursues trying to get their work into a good gallery and why a good gallery will stay in business no matter how many artists starve.. because they don't know how to make their art "marketable."

If we want a good figure, it needs to do what you have suggested above. It needs to be "stable." It needs to avoid the chaos of "yet another vicky-killer being introduced." And, in doing that, it will gain the attention of vendors who have technical and artistic skill that will gradually help to improve it and the selection of products created for it... for free. They will do all of this for nothing... The original figure team, the marketplace that hosts the accompanying products, doesn't have to spend hours creating new and better products for it. But, what they do need to do is to move from creator/seller to "Steward" to ensure that surprised hobo morphs and ineptly designed crappy clothing/accessory items DO NOT act to insult and degrade their carefully crafted product.

That has yet to happen outside of one particular marketplace.

Until it does, there will be no Vicky-Killer for Poser. It ain't gonna happen. The best product in the world can not survive bad management. Renderosity now has a unique opportunity - They can assert management controls over a platform product as well ass the content available for it. If they do it well, they could be very successful and their recent acquisition could actually start earning them money. If they do not, it won't and it will get sold off as a last-ditch effort to make money off a purchase that was never effectively capitalized upon. Only one marketplace has ever effectively, if not in reality, had such professional controls and influence over Poser and been successful with it. It wasn't Smith Micro...

I don't think I agree that it's the picture on the box that matters. Maybe Winter Queen Jessie tempted a few buyers.

When I bought Poser, it was because I saw the art someone else made with it, and I wanted to do what she did. I bought Poser sight unseen from Amazon. (And ended up paying way too much. Little did I know, Poser 5 would debut in about a week, and the price of Poser Pro would plummet, like sheep that roost in trees.)

The image I saw that made me want Poser was of two Michael figures. So, yeah, my next stop was DAZ. Where I again spent way too much money, because I didn't realize that if I waited 10 minutes it would go on sale. ?

ssgbryan posted at 10:01PM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357573

Guess what! Tall, big boobed, early 20's white girls don't actually make up 90% of the population. In the 1st, they make up about 3 - 4%. In the second, they don't exist - 1. Woman are average sized, and vary between obese and morbidly obese - nor are there much in the way of the early - mid 20's demographic - most left as soon as they graduate from the local high school (no jobs, no future in rural 'Murika).

Before you try preaching to the minister, you might wanna check what the only character I have in my store (and, incidentally, in my user avatar) looks like.

And if you think everyone is STILL doing only the same hourglass blondes, you might wanna browse La Femme's store.

(and mind you, perhaps in the US most women are obese, but sooome of us aren't from the US - I'm Brazilian, for one.)

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 3:35AM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357585

ssgbryan posted at 10:01PM Sat, 20 July 2019 - #4357573

Guess what! Tall, big boobed, early 20's white girls don't actually make up 90% of the population. In the 1st, they make up about 3 - 4%. In the second, they don't exist - 1. Woman are average sized, and vary between obese and morbidly obese - nor are there much in the way of the early - mid 20's demographic - most left as soon as they graduate from the local high school (no jobs, no future in rural 'Murika).

Before you try preaching to the minister, you might wanna check what the only character I have in my store (and, incidentally, in my user avatar) looks like.

And if you think everyone is STILL doing only the same hourglass blondes, you might wanna browse La Femme's store.

(and mind you, perhaps in the US most women are obese, but sooome of us aren't from the US - I'm Brazilian, for one.)

Afrodite-Ohki, one thing you'll learn is that no matter how many facts you give these people they insist on repeating and repeating and repeating their same tired, old, tl;dr screeds. Facts just get in their way.

Afrodite-Ohki, one thing you'll learn is that no matter how many facts you give these people they insist on repeating and repeating and repeating their same tired, old, tl;dr screeds. Facts just get in their way.

Lol :)

Tall, big boobed, early 20's white girls don't actually make up 90% of the population. In the 1st, they make up about 3 - 4%. In the second, they don't exist - 1. Woman are average sized, and vary between obese and morbidly obese -

If you took a poll you would find that 90 percent of western, heterosexual males find Tall, big boobed, early 20's white girls Attractive,in the abstract, if they were to be honest.

Look at Advertising ,Fashion and Hollywood. The harsh reality is that such women Fairly or Unfairly have the highest Sexual Marketplace Value in the minds of the majority.

3D/CG character programs may have some"Educational" or technical value in certain use cases like medical or other industry training etc.

However ,in truth 3D/CG is a subset of the larger entertainment industry.

Most people use 3D/CG character programs for creating Fantasy or idealized imagery of people places and things

No logical person would expect what is popular in the $$Commercial$ world of Poser,Daz or the multi-billion dollar video game industry to be any different from what is popular in the rest of the entertainment industry.

To their credit Daz and their PA 's have at least given people the option to create " non Ideal BMI "females with an included "heavy,Pear shaped and global body size/ thickness morphs for the genesis base figures.

And their are the Commercial "BBG" morphs for the G2 figures and the "Big Girls', morphs for the G8 females.

Not sure how well those fat/obese Character morphs actually sold but they are there if people need them for body type "diversity"

If the poser only vendors are not providing the "Population variety"one needs then one needs to consider looking elsewhere.

As we all quite naturally do, when our other forms of disposable entertainment are no longer filling our needs (Cable ,netflix,HULU,spotify... whatever)

The simple fact is No one, willing to expand their horizons, is literally stuck with only the 20 something,uber thin chicky poo's for their comics or graphic novels etc.

DAZ is kind of an interesting example. They are clearly courting the gaming industry, but their emphasis on pinup girls doesn't seem like a great fit for that. Sure, there's a place for them, but gaming characters seem to lean more toward buff males.

I know it's pointless, since some people have an opinion and won't change but lets try to consider facts. Every Poser figure that comes with Poser since P6Jessie has built in morphs which let you have fat, thin or muscle bound characters with the turn of a single dial, and every other figure I've bought either has the same or you can purchase morph sets to do it. So as most characters are dial spun bodies, it doesn't take much effort to change them yourself.

While some figures have attracted little support, those that have had any longevity also have a range of ethnic textures/characters available. I know someone will say only one or two, but if a figure only gets a dozen or so characters

Just go and look and at the character sets and morphs for LaFemme. We already have a range of ethnicities available, plus a mature texture and even a male texture, along with short and plump characters. Now a know this doesn't fit some peoples agenda, and most of this discussion seems to be between a non poser user and someone who has a chip on their shoulder because vendors are not meeting their particular desire, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'll defend their right to express it, but really if you are going to make statements like LaFemme is no better supported that Pauline (when there is already nearly 3 times as much content for LF as Pauline) or that LF would have been dead on arrival if not supported by Karanta, (when there are 50 vendors/artists listed as having contributed to at least one LF product) please do your research first.

Nails60 posted at 4:22PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357636

I know it's pointless, since some people have an opinion and won't change but lets try to consider facts. Every Poser figure that comes with Poser since P6Jessie has built in morphs which let you have fat, thin or muscle bound characters with the turn of a single dial, and every other figure I've bought either has the same or you can purchase morph sets to do it. So as most characters are dial spun bodies, it doesn't take much effort to change them yourself.

While some figures have attracted little support, those that have had any longevity also have a range of ethnic textures/characters available. I know someone will say only one or two, but if a figure only gets a dozen or so characters

Just go and look and at the character sets and morphs for LaFemme. We already have a range of ethnicities available, plus a mature texture and even a male texture, along with short and plump characters. Now a know this doesn't fit some peoples agenda, and most of this discussion seems to be between a non poser user and someone who has a chip on their shoulder because vendors are not meeting their particular desire, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'll defend their right to express it, but really if you are going to make statements like LaFemme is no better supported that Pauline (when there is already nearly 3 times as much content for LF as Pauline) or that LF would have been dead on arrival if not supported by Karanta, (when there are 50 vendors/artists listed as having contributed to at least one LF product) please do your research first.

Maybe not 3 times as many but at least, as far as I've noted in my directory, twice as many. I counted, to be sure. Pauline has 31 vendors that make at least one product for her, and La Femme, so far, has about 61. Dawn has a little over 69 vendors showing support. Also Karanta has shown support for Dawn, La Femme, Pauline, and Project E.

EClark I was just referring to this site, I just went to 3dfigure assets and selected female figures, This show 264 items for LaFemme and 100 for Pauline. OK I exaggerated a bit, it's ony2.64 times as many, so I should have said 2 and a half times as many, but I couldn't be bothered with the extra typing

Nails60 posted at 4:55PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357636

I know it's pointless, since some people have an opinion and won't change but lets try to consider facts. Every Poser figure that comes with Poser since P6Jessie has built in morphs which let you have fat, thin or muscle bound characters with the turn of a single dial, and every other figure I've bought either has the same or you can purchase morph sets to do it. So as most characters are dial spun bodies, it doesn't take much effort to change them yourself.

While some figures have attracted little support, those that have had any longevity also have a range of ethnic textures/characters available. I know someone will say only one or two, but if a figure only gets a dozen or so characters

Just go and look and at the character sets and morphs for LaFemme. We already have a range of ethnicities available, plus a mature texture and even a male texture, along with short and plump characters. Now a know this doesn't fit some peoples agenda, and most of this discussion seems to be between a non poser user and someone who has a chip on their shoulder because vendors are not meeting their particular desire, and everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I'll defend their right to express it, but really if you are going to make statements like LaFemme is no better supported that Pauline (when there is already nearly 3 times as much content for LF as Pauline) or that LF would have been dead on arrival if not supported by Karanta, (when there are 50 vendors/artists listed as having contributed to at least one LF product) please do your research first.

Did a quick render of less than half the Full Body Morphs for La Femme in the dc Body Kit. And this doesn't include those from Blackhearted.

randym77 posted at 2:10PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357629

DAZ is kind of an interesting example. They are clearly courting the gaming industry, but their emphasis on pinup girls doesn't seem like a great fit for that.

...but we'll always have DOAX, dammit!

Far too many good posts that do a good enough job at it to bother with a direct rebuttal of earlier stuff on my part, but I did want to tidy up one bit or two:

Quoth ssgbryan: "Low level scripters have stepped up in the past and delivered (PhilC, Netherworks, Dimension3D, etc), If you can script in Python, you can develop add-ons. You don't need to hire a 6 figure programmer - hire a Python code monkey and HAVE A CLEAR SCOPE OF WORK. Because at some point, you have to shoot the coder and get the product into production."

Err, two developers on my team write primarily in Python these days, and one of them gets paid $110k/yr (and I promise you, he earns every penny of it.) Welcome to the West Coast, where mid/senior-level devs will cost you money in any language (and seriously, anything less than $175k/yr in Silly Valley is literal poverty wages.) We're not talking about slapping together something on a hobbyist level, or something that may have been cobbled together off of StackExchange here... we're talking about pro-grade stuff that is elegant, supported, resource-efficient, and (should be!) maintained. Also, Poser's API likely still isn't IMHO sufficiently open to everything that Python can do (Note to Rendo: I'm prepared to be pleasantly wrong on this note... please make me wrong here in case I end up buying the application.)

Now if a professional wants to write and give-away/sell something for less than his or her time is worth, that's on them... but most won't.

One other bit:

" Poser/DS also requires a real computer, not a laptop (ask me how I know), "

Let me share a few specs here...

• Processor: Intel(R) Core(TM) i7-8750H CPU @ 2.20GHz, 2208 Mhz, 6 Core(s), 12 Logical Processor(s)
• Installed Physical Memory (RAM): 32.0 GB
• Graphics/GPU: nVidia GeForce GTX 1060, 6GB RAM

...so is that suddenly not sufficient to run Poser or DS, just because all that horsepower happens to be ensconced in an Acer Aspire 7 17" laptop? DS.latest (using iRay w/ all the bells and whistles) runs just perfectly fine on this thing, and I suspect Poser 11 Pro will as well, so, well, I'm going to ask you how you somehow know it wouldn't (as you've invited me to.) I mean, it ain't the latest/greatest, but it's way more than enough to clear the minimum spec hurdles, I trust?

I promise I'm not nagging/trolling here, but pointing to a demographic fact: Fewer and fewer people are going to have big ol' fire-breather desktops with big monitors perched on a table somewhere. More and more people are going to have laptops (w/ maybe a few external monitors.) Desktops are still around, but more often than not they're secondary devices these days. Now how are you going to lure new users in if the first thing out of your mouth is to tell them they need to go buy a whole new (pricey!) computer just to run this stuff? Game companies can get away with it - Poser/DS cannot. This shift to mobile affects Poser and DS in multiple ways - primarily, it means less real-estate for a 'desktop' view. Sure, I can Miracast my 17" laptop screen onto my titanic 4K LED television screen and have all the real-estate on the planet to play with, but I'm fairly sure my wife would object to my interrupting her favorite TV shows and movies by doing so ;)

So - with the typical user these days having a 15" laptop, that's pretty much what you have to shoot for. It's not a bad environment to work with (my previous laptop, a 15" 2012-era MacBook Pro, served just fine as a CG workstation), so your baseline specs are still going to be somewhat lower than usual, and, more importantly, your UI/UX is going to have to adapt to these realities as well.

EClark1894 posted at 2:55PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357637

Maybe not 3 times as many but at least, as far as I've noted in my directory, twice as many. I counted, to be sure. Pauline has 31 vendors that make at least one product for her, and La Femme, so far, has about 61. Dawn has a little over 69 vendors showing support. Also Karanta has shown support for Dawn, La Femme, Pauline, and Project E.

...and this is encouraging for that figure.

Now, honest questions: Is this a bandwagon-jump, or is this long term? What do the items for sale look like? What are their average ratings?

I'm not asking this of you, but of Rendo, who can do a little BI and start figuring out what sells, what customer support issues are for various products, how they stack up if there are similar items for sale for the same figure, what could use a little culling due to QA issues... this is the perfect time to get strict about what's for sale and what stays for sale with the LaFemme figure. It looks like it's taking off, so it's up to the store to make sure it continues to grow, and more importantly, that its reputation grows.

Penguinisto, your comments about laptops are very valid, Poser has a very customisable and scalable ui, but the scaling does need some work as you can get some annoying clipping. It does have a minimum screen resolution requirement, can't remember exactly what it is but it's, is below hd, but above 720p, don't know how many laptops come with 720p screen these days.It also has some settings specifically to help it be used on lower power machines.

But you have to make sure you are not throwing out the baby out with the bathwater if it is going to be redesigned. I'm sure everyone remember the Windows 8 farce, where a ui designed with mobile/touchscreen in mind was foisted upon desktop users.

Penguinisto posted at 6:50PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357644

EClark1894 posted at 2:55PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357637

Maybe not 3 times as many but at least, as far as I've noted in my directory, twice as many. I counted, to be sure. Pauline has 31 vendors that make at least one product for her, and La Femme, so far, has about 61. Dawn has a little over 69 vendors showing support. Also Karanta has shown support for Dawn, La Femme, Pauline, and Project E.

...and this is encouraging for that figure.

Now, honest questions: Is this a bandwagon-jump, or is this long term? What do the items for sale look like? What are their average ratings?

I'm not asking this of you, but of Rendo, who can do a little BI and start figuring out what sells, what customer support issues are for various products, how they stack up if there are similar items for sale for the same figure, what could use a little culling due to QA issues... this is the perfect time to get strict about what's for sale and what stays for sale with the LaFemme figure. It looks like it's taking off, so it's up to the store to make sure it continues to grow, and more importantly, that its reputation grows.

You don't seriously expect Rendo to answer your questions, do you? I wouldn't, and honestly, I doubt you would either. If you're speaking rhetorically, then that's up to the individual buying whatever item they like or need.

EClark1894 posted at 4:18PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357650

You don't seriously expect Rendo to answer your questions, do you?

Obviously not to me - but they should answer them internally, if only for their own knowledge. It speaks to refining their market, and towards making a decision as to which figure they would want to make primary.

Nails60 posted at 4:20PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357649

Penguinisto, your comments about laptops are very valid, Poser has a very customisable and scalable ui, but the scaling does need some work as you can get some annoying clipping. It does have a minimum screen resolution requirement, can't remember exactly what it is but it's, is below hd, but above 720p, don't know how many laptops come with 720p screen these days.It also has some settings specifically to help it be used on lower power machines.

Most come with 1080p screen rez as standard (mine is set to 1080p)... Apple's Retina is insanely higher still, and 4K screens are fairly common on the upper half of the laptop spectrum nowadays.

But you have to make sure you are not throwing out the baby out with the bathwater if it is going to be redesigned. I'm sure everyone remember the Windows 8 farce, where a ui designed with mobile/touchscreen in mind was foisted upon desktop users.

Not sure if they'll do that right away or not. Kai Krause is too much like Jason in all those horror flicks - his creations refuse to die, after all ;)

DAZ is kind of an interesting example. They are clearly courting the gaming industry, but their emphasis on pinup girls doesn't seem like a great fit for that.

See my earlier post where I detail how badly Daz/genesis is failing to gain traction in the gaming industry. in short they do not seem to understand the game dev/gaming culture.

https://www.usatoday.com/picture-gallery/money/2018/12/13/top-25-best-selling-video-games-2018/2303697002/

Daz should do just a wee bit of research and ask themselves why that demographic of users are not impressed with their current Genesis content .

Desktops are still around, but more often than not they're secondary devices these days. Now how are you going to lure new users in if the first thing out of your mouth is to tell them they need to go buy a whole new (pricey!) computer just to run this stuff? Game companies can get away with it - Poser/DS cannot.

I get it... GPU rendering is the undeniable future.

Still,.. Forcing people to buy hardware from one manufacturer (NVIDIA) because they have committed to a Brute force path tracer ( IRay), and allowing PA's to sell products with several dozen 4K textures on the BOTTOM's of vehicle models, is the reason why people now think it is not possible to use a laptop for Daz studio.

wolf359 posted at 5:08PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357656

I get it... GPU rendering is the undeniable future.

Still,.. Forcing people to buy hardware from one manufacturer (NVIDIA) because they have committed to a Brute force path tracer ( IRay), and allowing PA's to sell products with several dozen 4K textures on the BOTTOM's of vehicle models, is the reason why people now think it is not possible to use a laptop for Daz studio.

I do agree - one of the reasons why I'm typing this on an Acer and not a shiny new MacBook Pro is because Apple doesn't do nVidia GPUs. I think it's dumb to have to base one's hardware purchases on software/hardware exclusivity. I get why they went to iRay - it's a fairly decent engine that doesn't cost a whole lot to license.

OTOH, DS still has 3Delight which works just fine - it's not an either-or situation. I trust that Poser is similar, in that they have a higher-end and a middle-range (or lower-range?) render engine selection, yes?

Also, the hyper-rez texture set has been a thing for, like, forever now - not confined to DAZ, Poser, Rendo...

But, it takes no time at all to gank-down the rez by half or more if you need to. I do that as part of basic prep for items that tend to stay towards the background. There's even products that will do that in-app if you're that lazy (on the DS front - not sure about Poser, but it would be fairly easy to 'gin up). This subject is where you and I disagree a bit, since I'd much rather have high-rez that I can make lo-rez, than to try to upsize a lo-rez texture for close-ups (99% of the attempts wind up looking like utter crap, yanno?) Again, this doesn't matter what app or render engine we're talking about... this is general principle.

Back on-topic, figures need to mind this, perhaps - a great default figure feature would be to provide two texture options for the base figure - lo/hi rez? It's cheap to do, and doesn;t bloat things by too much. Only the newbies would really appreciate it, I know, but it'd be a nice gesture.

randym77 posted at 7:21PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357584

I don't think I agree that it's the picture on the box that matters. Maybe Winter Queen Jessie tempted a few buyers.

When I bought Poser, it was because I saw the art someone else made with it, and I wanted to do what she did. I bought Poser sight unseen from Amazon. (And ended up paying way too much. Little did I know, Poser 5 would debut in about a week, and the price of Poser Pro would plummet, like sheep that roost in trees.)

The image I saw that made me want Poser was of two Michael figures. So, yeah, my next stop was DAZ. Where I again spent way too much money, because I didn't realize that if I waited 10 minutes it would go on sale. ?

The point is that it was what you "saw" and "knew" at the time that made you want to buy Poser. You "saw" a render that really appealed to you in some way, likely of a human, since that's something that many people can immediately identify. (If you were more of a landscapes kind of person wanting to duplicate Bob Ross paintings in 3D, maybe it would have been Vue instead?)

What you "knew" was that someone did some computer stuff, sitting at a desk, and pressed a button and did the "Do Art" thing and produced the render you liked. (Probably)

You likely had little knowledge of even what a simple "Pose" was, much less what node-based materials systems did or exactly what a "render engine" was, right? And, rigging and geometry and weightmaps vs deformers, etc... Well, that's not something a novice user can easily grasp without pushing and pulling rigged figures in a 3D app, right?

A box of cereal is sold more often by what the potential consumer knows about the ingredients pictured on the box. Some few enterprising consumers turn the box around to read the ingredients list, but they're much less likely to do that if there's also a blurb printed on the front of the box that says the product is "Healthy".... :) If it taste's great, it gets bought again and again.

A good product appeals both to those with little or no experience with its type and professionals, where applicable, who want specific professional-greade features.

Penguinisto posted at 7:36PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357643....

So - with the typical user these days having a 15" laptop, that's pretty much what you have to shoot for. It's not a bad environment to work with (my previous laptop, a 15" 2012-era MacBook Pro, served just fine as a CG workstation), so your baseline specs are still going to be somewhat lower than usual, and, more importantly, your UI/UX is going to have to adapt to these realities as well.

I just wanted to point out a danger, here:

I, too, have run Poser on a high-grade laptop. But, I also output to a large secondary monitor.

The thing is, the general "do computer stuffs" market is moving to smaller, more convenient, mobile'ish platforms. Except for the people that really love visuals... And, that's the market Poser is peddled to. So, while some Poser users might make-do with a 15" screen, they're either wanting something more or they're financially or job-tasked-limited to what they're using. Because the output of this software and the purpose for which it is intended is "visual" its market is also oriented on that. And, that means nobody is going to buy Poser to "use" on their smartphone or iPad. But, they may make Poser output to be used for further engineering targeting those devices... And, if Renderosity/Bondware wanted to target that market of developers, then they'd incorporate features that catered to them. But, it wouldn't likely be targeted to running Poser on those devices.

Yes, making Poser more friendly to smaller-screen presentations would be nice for those users. But, most of them want more and heavy users are going to certainly want features that target their own needs and desires, which likely center around more robust machines and capabilities.

ie: The "danger" is overgeneralizing the habits of certain common industry markets to the habits of more specialized markets, which have decidedly different needs/wants.

Ps - Apologies for multi-posts, but I can't figure out how to multi-quote. So... :)

Glitterati3D posted at 7:47PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357539...

Here's a clue for you: I made more sales in 2.5 WEEKS on Renderosity with La Femme, than I made in ** 2 YEARS** at Hivewire on Dawn, Dusk and Luna content.

Apologies for multi-posting. (Can anyone tell me wth button I'm not clicking to allow multi-quoting... or is that not a feature here?)

And, have you examined whether or not that was because of Hivewire's more limited marketplace, more limited "gang-on" support from other vendors, and the fact that Renderosity is a much larger marketplace with all that entails? Hivewire is a "smaller-pond" marketplace. (It's possibly an example, IMO, of moving from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a big pond.")

Marketplace Support is A Big Deal ™. Every marketplace in this industry has a captive audience. The larger that captive audience (Those who very much prefer buying from it) the larger the potential for baseline sales for any product. Units moved. Transactions complete. Every "potential" is much larger, even with competing products on the very same page. Smaller markets with less participation may allow for larger penetration, but will likely move less units overall if there is a larger marketplace.

IOW - The comparison is fairly meaningless without knowing much, much, more. I suspect you've just experienced the differences between releasing a new figure in a small market versus releasing one in a larger market. And, with more vendors in this market comes the prospect of complimentary products pushing sales of the original product as well.

Morkonan posted at 10:27PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357667

Glitterati3D posted at 7:47PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357539...

Here's a clue for you: I made more sales in 2.5 WEEKS on Renderosity with La Femme, than I made in ** 2 YEARS** at Hivewire on Dawn, Dusk and Luna content.

Apologies for multi-posting. (Can anyone tell me wth button I'm not clicking to allow multi-quoting... or is that not a feature here?)

And, have you examined whether or not that was because of Hivewire's more limited marketplace, more limited "gang-on" support from other vendors, and the fact that Renderosity is a much larger marketplace with all that entails? Hivewire is a "smaller-pond" marketplace. (It's possibly an example, IMO, of moving from being a big fish in a small pond to being a small fish in a big pond.")

Marketplace Support is A Big Deal ™. Every marketplace in this industry has a captive audience. The larger that captive audience (Those who very much prefer buying from it) the larger the potential for baseline sales for any product. Units moved. Transactions complete. Every "potential" is much larger, even with competing products on the very same page. Smaller markets with less participation may allow for larger penetration, but will likely move less units overall if there is a larger marketplace.

IOW - The comparison is fairly meaningless without knowing much, much, more. I suspect you've just experienced the differences between releasing a new figure in a small market versus releasing one in a larger market. And, with more vendors in this market comes the prospect of complimentary products pushing sales of the original product as well.

I think you probably forgot Dawn is on Renderosity as well.

You really do not know what you are talking about. Sure, you can overpower the conversation with constant droning on and on with posts that are simply too long and by sheer virtue of volume, but you still are babbling incoherently when it comes to product sales.

There's only one thing I agree with SSGBryan on - it's not 2007 anymore. It's a very different marketplace.

Get back to me when you put product on the line and in the marketplace and can speak with some authority.

Glitterati3D posted at 11:54PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357676

I think you probably forgot Dawn is on Renderosity as well.

There's probably a reason for that.

You really do not know what you are talking about. Sure, you can overpower the conversation with constant droning on and on with posts that are simply too long and by sheer virtue of volume, but you still are babbling incoherently when it comes to product sales.

Why the hostility?

Get back to me when you put product on the line and in the marketplace and can speak with some authority.

I asked a question specifically about your own marketplace knowledge and involving what could be your own analysis and comparisons of your returns. I assume you may have done some kind of observations regarding comparing marketplaces. I see that assumption was undeserved.

Morkonan posted at 3:54AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357682

Glitterati3D posted at 11:54PM Sun, 21 July 2019 - #4357676

I think you probably forgot Dawn is on Renderosity as well.

There's probably a reason for that.

You really do not know what you are talking about. Sure, you can overpower the conversation with constant droning on and on with posts that are simply too long and by sheer virtue of volume, but you still are babbling incoherently when it comes to product sales.

Why the hostility?

Get back to me when you put product on the line and in the marketplace and can speak with some authority.

I asked a question specifically about your own marketplace knowledge and involving what could be your own analysis and comparisons of your returns. I assume you may have done some kind of observations regarding comparing marketplaces. I see that assumption was undeserved.

If you had any real knowledge of the marketplace, as you so pompously announce in every long, drawn out post you would know that the information you want posted on a public message board is protected by NDA.

In case you hadn't noticed, this entire thread now consists of 3 of you, with absolutely no first hand knowledge of the marketplace, bloviating about what this market needs. None of which have any skin in the game with products in the store and first hand experience.

This whole thread has become an exercise in the long winded professors lecturing the classroom, while the classroom slowly empties out as the "students" who have managed to stay awake are slowly slipping out the back door unnoticed.

What makes a good figure for this market?

Evidently just marketing.

Because if there's one thing DAZ does well, it's marketing. They don't have a superior figure in technical terms. They just told you they did, and you seemed to fall in line like they were reeling you in.

It's funny, because Poser vendors refused to "learn a whole new rigging system" when Poser went to weight mapping. So what did they do? Why, they ran to DAZ where they had to guess what? Learn a whole new rigging system! I'll be damned - hook, line and sinker.

Test time - how many RDNA vendors who were sold to DAZ are still at DAZ? (Not the products, the VENDORS)

Glitterati3D posted at 6:06AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357686

In case you hadn't noticed, this entire thread now consists of 3 of you, with absolutely no first hand knowledge of the marketplace, bloviating about what this market needs. None of which have any skin in the game with products in the store and first hand experience.

Just dropping opinions, nothing more. I base it not only from my work inside of various marketplaces here (including one which was and still is far larger than Rendo), but based on my more recent experience in leading a product which currently generates $80m/yr... so yes dear, I know what skin actually is, and the playground I work in these days is far larger and more complex than you are aware of.

I'm sure that others may have their own unique perspectives as well, based on their real-world experience, and in fields where their very careers depend on success in said fields. Just because we don't make a couple thousand bucks off of a consignment or two in a digital store, does not mean that we now nothing of software development, marketing, mesh, or strategic direction.

Note that the intended audience is not you - you are exactly one vendor, who makes consignment items for money. No, the audience is, if the site owners are smart, someone with actual influence who can (and likely does) read the thread for ideas. If others want to put in their two cents, cool - the more the merrier. If they ignore it, cool, whatevs. However, my own experience in this forum has shown that yes, these posts do get read by people who have way more influence, as long as said posts remain free from the petty bickering (or at least has gems in and among the dross).

Note that I've studiously avoided getting drawn into the insults and the bullshit... and until now, I've avoided taking your bait, but perhaps it's time to set you straight - everyone is allowed to speak their minds here, because it will give the PTB a viewpoint or two far larger than your limited POV. The fact that you make and sell digital barbie doll stuff does not give you the right to presume any sort of superiority over everyone else up in here, because there are others whom I am very certain have far more experience in multiple fields than you or I have, and I appreciate their viewpoints as well, even if (okay, especially if) they're contrary. Just because it makes you uncomfortable doesn't make them invalid... if you don't like it, leave - capiche?

Now with that out of the way, let's address the few actual bits of substance, shall we?

It's not "just marketing", as you say. The figure has to actually hold up to the hype. If the Genesis line sucked as bad as you intimate, DAZ would have dissolved a very long time ago, or would have abandoned DS and shifted to supporting Poser at all costs. Instead, it's quite the opposite, so obviously the figures hold up more than sufficiently.

Consider - there is a massive digital graveyard of figures that got way more hype, way more advertising all around, and way more shouting from the rooftops. But due to deficiencies in topology, rigging, distortion, etc? They wound up just as dead as Jessie... Simple and sweet? If the mesh ain't competent, it won't make it very long.

So, about other vendors jumping ship en masse? Stop emoting and projecting - instead, honestly look into the motivations and reasons as to why they left, and more importantly, why many of them never came back. If it were that big of a big hassle for them to adapt to DS' rigging, they would have returned. If it were such a let-down and a sub-standard figure platform as you claim, they would have returned. If Poser were oh-so-superior, they would have come crawling back. BUT, a huge number of them didn't.

It's up to Renderosity to find out why, and more importantly for them, to figure out what it will take to either attract them back, or to mentor and encourage new vendors of sufficient quality. They have to encourage that growth anyway.

This isn't a question of bragging rights or snobbery - it's a question of long-term survival. It all comes down to one of two choices: continue thinking everything is awesome as the income curve slowly continues its arc towards the dirt... or sit down and seriously reconsider WTF it's going to take to spark some growth up in this piece.

Morkonan posted at 9:21AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357663

The point is that it was what you "saw" and "knew" at the time that made you want to buy Poser. You "saw" a render that really appealed to you in some way, likely of a human, since that's something that many people can immediately identify. (If you were more of a landscapes kind of person wanting to duplicate Bob Ross paintings in 3D, maybe it would have been Vue instead?)

Tacogirl? I ended up buying Vue as well. (Though it may be the end for me, now that they've gone subscription. Love Vue, but don't use it enough to justify paying what they're charging for a subscription.)

What you "knew" was that someone did some computer stuff, sitting at a desk, and pressed a button and did the "Do Art" thing and produced the render you liked. (Probably)

Oh, I knew it was more complicated than that. That was a big part of the appeal. I wanted to be able to customize the figures. To make them look like individual people, and dress them accordingly. That's what Poser was offering (via the text description of the product, not the "picture on the box," which was not very appealing).

You likely had little knowledge of even what a simple "Pose" was, much less what node-based materials systems did or exactly what a "render engine" was, right? And, rigging and geometry and weightmaps vs deformers, etc... Well, that's not something a novice user can easily grasp without pushing and pulling rigged figures in a 3D app, right?

I did understand what Poser did, as far as posing and rendering. I played video games, so had a basic understanding of rendering and texturing. (And I think that's where a lot of new users will come from, if any. Gaming. A lot of people are using The Sims to do the things Poser does.)

A good product appeals both to those with little or no experience with its type and professionals, where applicable, who want specific professional-greade features.

Eh, that depends on what market you're aiming for. And Rosity probably needs to make some decisions.

I suspect Poser has a more "professional" base than DS. When I've seen Poser in the wild, it's for things like professional training videos, or teaching people how to use the automated checkout, or in forensic reconstructions. Ordinary people dressed in ordinary clothes, where diversity is very important.

Will that continue? I don't know. Clearly, that kind of thing isn't what sells at Rosity. I suspect you don't need to buy much content to make those types of images and videos anyway. Nobody cares if Jessie has the same hair and clothes when she's sexually harassing her new employee in the workplace training video and when she's being murdered by her jealous husband in the forensic reconstruction.

Those Poser-type apps, and the comments about the decline of desktops...it does make me think that Poser will probably have to move more toward professional users. At my office (where almost everyone is an engineer, so fairly tech-savvy), the young people don't use computers at home. They do use desktops at work, but at home, they do everything on their phones or tablets.

I suspect aiming at new/inexperienced users might be a bad plan. These people are going to be using apps on their phones, not a big-ass program like Poser.

randym77 posted at 8:19AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357706

Those Poser-type apps, and the comments about the decline of desktops...it does make me think that Poser will probably have to move more toward professional users. At my office (where almost everyone is an engineer, so fairly tech-savvy), the young people don't use computers at home. They do use desktops at work, but at home, they do everything on their phones or tablets.

I suspect aiming at new/inexperienced users might be a bad plan. These people are going to be using apps on their phones, not a big-ass program like Poser.

Dunno - I'm on the fence about it mostly. Poser has traditionally been the 'down-low' Plan B of sorts for pros on a time crunch who want to get a little project done and out the door - it offered (and still offers, I trust) a basic set of stuff and a usable workflow to lash-up something good enough to pass muster on a small budget. Most houses I'd been in in the past always kept a couple copies of Poser and some assets for it around just in case (this included part of Intel's Graphics R&D folks back in 2007-2008, though none of 'em would admit it in open daylight.) DS sort of owns the majority of the hobbyist-only market anyway, so...

Going Pro wouldn't be too bad of a direction to take, but they'd have to make a lot of concessions to(and build a lot of tools for) the pros, then curate the hell out of the Marketplace to boost their appeal - perhaps expand and build on their conversion tools (in and out)... wouldn't take too much. Only question is, would there be a big enough market among the pros to sustain them? They only have so much time and money left to spend, and it''s a pretty big gamble. OTOH, they have most of the infrastructure and connections...

Penguinisto posted at 11:25AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357712

Going Pro wouldn't be too bad of a direction to take, but they'd have to make a lot of concessions to(and build a lot of tools for) the pros, then curate the hell out of the Marketplace to boost their appeal - perhaps expand and build on their conversion tools (in and out)... wouldn't take too much. Only question is, would there be a big enough market among the pros to sustain them? They only have so much time and money left to spend, and it''s a pretty big gamble. OTOH, they have most of the infrastructure and connections...

And on the other hand...emphasizing ease of use for newbs would put them more directly in conflict with games like The Sims, and with DS. I'm not sure that's a competition they can win.

randym77 posted at 10:44AM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357719

And on the other hand...emphasizing ease of use for newbs would put them more directly in conflict with games like The Sims, and with DS. I'm not sure that's a competition they can win.

Precisely. It'd be a very tough row to hoe, since they'd be competing against playtime (Sims, SecondLife), and $0.00 low-cost/low-barrier CG art kit (DS)..

I do have a question, asked out of ignorance, though - has Poser changed its rigging between Poser 7 (the last version I have) and 11, or is it the same as it's always been? I ask because if we're talking about going pro, it might help to either change how rigging is dealt with, or to beef up the import/export tooling to translate, so as to ease the workflow a little. Also, I don;t know what Poser's animation capabilities are these days, but that might need a bit of buffing-up and a few tools besides (unless already present and more-than-capable from the pro side of things... again, more of a question asked in ignorance until I get get my grubby little paws on Poser 11).

Lots of factors, but I don't think they should be real obstacles - more gruntwork than anything given the library sets that practically anyone can download and license these days. One big start would be to bump the Python interpreter up to something modern (I read somewhere it's still at like 2.6?), and expose a lot more of Poser's internals to API use... that would give it a big advantage over DS almost immediately (DS is very open API-wise, but everyone hates learning a new language, ECMA-compliance and Java-scented syntax be damned. Tying to Python would be frickin' huge if they could do it, and would allow the market to help them out as well.)

In case you hadn't noticed, this entire thread now consists of 3 of you,

SSGbryan,Morkonan,Penguinisto ,randym77,wolf359

I count five active participants, excluding the eternally angry, former resident Snark Queen of the DEFUNCT tribalist's fever swamp ,that was the Smith micro poser forum.

@Penguinisto , well stated my friend!!

I would only add the general observation/example that anyone who has seen the history of sony's many failed Closed format devices can have an opinion on why those business models failed without having had personally produced and sold a music player themselves.

In fact the need for that sort of detached analysis ,by external observers ,is exactly the type of thing Tony Vilters has correctly called for in beta testing would be new primary figures

For the record I was a poser vendor in the RMP for 12 years selling motion file products for M2- M4/V4.

I currently sell Genesis animation products over at another non daz outlet.

As long as the forum rules are observed ,anyone is free to post in, or LEAVE any thread at anytime.

Also, I don;t know what Poser's animation capabilities are these days, but that might need a bit of buffing-up and a few tools besides (unless already present and more-than-capable from the pro side of things...

In a word... abysmal. Lets be fair and exclude Pro level solutions ,I actually own, like Iclone pro pipeline, and Lightwave3D 2015 and make the obvious comparison in this little market space.

Poser VS Daz studio for Character animation: although I did so for years with poser 4-6,I personally could never go back to poser for animation creation and most certainly not for editing imported animation data

I opened up poser pro 2014 recently and tried to edit a basic walk cycle generated by the "walkdesigner"............ARRRGHHH!!

Poser forces you into a completely linear workflow with extremely ,limited options to go back and make global changes Even its "layer system" forces you to make your secondary motion decisions in a carefully planned linear fashion on Rigid fixed tracks with no option to reorder. retime ,reverse or trim the layers.

This is all easily accomplished with the aniMate2 nonlinear motion clip system in Daz studio now bundled FREE in the new DS 4.12

Posers graph editor has NO Cubic interpolation to prevent that before and after stretching of the spline graph when you grab a key on the spline graph and move its value. You have to literally select sections of the graph and set "anchoring" frames to avoid over shoot it also cannot display more than one spline graph channel at a time

Daz studio Graphmate's default interpolation is Cubic. NO overshoot.. and can display multiple spline graph channels at a time.

Neither program has spline tangent handles but at least DS graphMate, now bundled FREE in the new DS 4.12, has Tension continuity and Bias controls for fine tuning the graph between individual frames. as in Lightwave3D

The poser animation pallet (Dope sheet) is truly a vestigial relic from the 1990's The DS Dope sheet( Keymate)now bundled FREE in the new DS 4.12,
is far superior by every measure.

But enough Nerdy McNerd technobabble!!

What about talking Characters?? Here is My video review of 3 of the 4 options for talking Characters Daz studio from old Mike 2 up to the G8 figures. ( the fourth option "anilip" is $90 USD so... umm.. no)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xOSyocgvpRfrYw821IxxdYVLuQI5rALm/view

The poser talk designer is actually decent except that ( As of poser pro 2014) it only works with the poser SM natives in their DEFAULT Morph shapes and will override any custom morph during the lip synch with default native face morph.,,any fix in poser 11??

P6 Jessie speaks:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sQ9H7D6LvSMcV0np-Fm4piRr8_cjWA1r/view

Penguinisto posted at 3:10PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357725

I do have a question, asked out of ignorance, though - has Poser changed its rigging between Poser 7 (the last version I have) and 11, or is it the same as it's always been?

Poser has added weight mapping since Poser 7. That's why Dawn is Poser 9 or above, IIRC. There have also been some changes since then, which is why La Femme is Poser 11 only.

There have been some improvements to animation, but I don't use animation all that often so I don't know how major they are. You can animate along 3D paths now, and there's keyframe grouping, but I haven't actually used it.

Eh, that depends on what market you're aiming for. And Rosity >probably needs to make some decisions.

Indeed the The Daz users both native, and Migrated from poser, are a lost demographic.

The new young generation (Like my two kids in their early twenties) Are the mobile device generation as you said.

The tech savvy Character oriented prosumers have free Game engines with amazing render engines Like unity & UE4 .

Then there is Iclone Character creator3 that creates perfect genesis dopplegangers.at $200 USD and has IRay https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?forum_id=12547

Not counting in the sims Virtuamate and that adobe Fuse character app.

Bondware had better have a really good strategic plan for growth that goes beyond deciding what will be the new base figures for Poser.

wolf359 posted at 6:19PM Mon, 22 July 2019 - #4357761

Indeed the The Daz users both native, and Migrated from poser, are a lost demographic.

Thinking that way myself now that I sit down and mull it over - especially with the mobile generation (and it ain't just the kids - my dear missus has been using iPads exclusively since 2013, in spite of having a plethora of fairly high horsepower laptops to pick from. I just got rid of my last desktop when it died, and it was just a glorified file/backup/media box. It'll get replaced with a Raspberry Pi (the latest version 4, w/ 4GB) when that finally shows up in a couple of weeks. Ever since I started working where I do (with a lot of travel), and since the (step)kids moved out as adults, we settled into a small cabin roughly 50 miles outside of Portland, OR... and a desktop, even in my home office? Not happening. Don't got or want to make the space for one. So, a fire-breather laptop it is (that way I can take it with me whilst traveling on business.)

The shift away from desktops, coupled with the near-full capture DAZ has on the hobbyists, well, it is kind of a pity... and as much as I can;t argue against the analysis, it'd still be nice to be wrong about that.

The tech savvy Character oriented prosumers have free Game engines with amazing render engines Like unity & UE4 .

They've had this in one form or another since 2005 - ever since I saw one of my last students farting around with it on a lab desktop.

Not counting in the sims Virtuamate and that adobe Fuse character app.

Yeah, but Adobe... barf. (I know, I know...)

Here's something odd, though - OSX/MacOS has had CG preview of known CG assets for years now, and I discovered a couple months ago, so does Windows 10.

So how long before Microsoft and/or Apple (or both?) come out with rudimentary-but-usable CG manipulation/creation apps? Oh, nevermind... Windows 10 has Paint3D, right frickin' there. It's slow/boggy on initially loading large pre-made meshes (especially .obj files - holy crap Wings3D is like 10000x faster!), but holy crap it's all right there.

Bondware had better have a really good strategic plan for growth that goes beyond deciding what will be the new base figures for Poser.

Yup - been trying to keep things tied to the topic (figures), but damn it's hard to do that, considering...