Retrowave posted at 2:10PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375079

Luckily I'm a Brit and would never stand for this abuse, not sure about Americans though if Shane's position is representative:

I've never stated whether I'm for or against the subscription model, I'm just relaying the facts of the matter as I've seen them develop over the last several years. There are pros and cons on both sides. It just so happens that a lot of people are in favor of the subscription model, not just with software but with a whole lot of other things. I would suspect it might have something to do with the recession we just came out of. Not many people had a whole lot of money to spend outright on products but they could spend a few bucks a month on a subscription service. And it's just grown from there.

You can rent your clothes now, as I said in a previous post. You pay a flat monthly fee and select a certain number of outfits each month, then return them and get something else. You don't even have to wash it - in fact some places prefer that you don't cause you'll probably ruin it. My niece was signed up with one of those services a couple years back and loved it. She got her own personal tailor that picked outfits that suited her tastes. It's just an example. People want the latest and greatest and don't want to or can't afford to fork out hundreds or thousands up front just to get the latest gadget or clothing or whatever, which is just going to be outdated in 3 to 6 months anyway. But if you're paying a few bucks each month you always have access to whatever the latest it is, and that's what appeals most to people, especially younger people.

So, you're saying it's just a matter of time before vendors, or at least the stores, start "renting" their products to customers?

EClark1894 posted at 2:26PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375123

wolf359 posted at 2:08PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375107

@ Retrowave also consider that the "cost of a perpetual license" is arbitrary not something regulated by the government. there are no price controls in a capitalists economy.

Sure there are. Prices are controlled by market forces.

the economic factors affecting the price of, demand for, and availability of a commodity.

Price controls aren't set by the government in a capitalist economy, I think is what Wolf was getting at. Meaning a government or court cannot tell a company how much they are allowed to charge for a particular product or service. Its up to that company to decide how much they're going to sell or rent it for. Some companies intentionally price their goods/services out of the reach of the commoners because they only want a select class to have access to it, and there's nothing illegal about that.

I think a lot of people are moving toward the rent model because they get what they want from it, not because it's the only option.

If you rent clothing, you can wear a huge variety without having to buy it all. Especially for things you won't wear often, like a formal gown (even if you attend galas often, women aren't supposed to wear the same dress). There are also environmental concerns. Our landfills are filling up with junk. Why not borrow or rent, rather than buying something that will end up in the trash?

Buying MP3s or CDs makes sense if you only like a few songs, but for people with wide music tastes, who want to discover new music, streaming is the way to go. You can listen to anything, anywhere. A Spotify account costs less than what 1 CD a month used to cost, and you can listen to thousands of songs.

Renting isn't for everyone, but to assume people who choose it are just too dumb to know better is ridiculous.

Well Cool ... all 3D Creators will rent there models for monthly fees on Renderosity, Poser will have the Rent a model library all built in , rent directly Model bundles through the Library. no more hassles with Runtimes , all online , you just pay for the models you really need for the time you need. sure that model will ask a little more for the accounting, as creators are freelancers but Bondware can handle it all . especially if cash flows ! So you do not own Poser , you do not need to have that mess of models installed on your drive.

Bondware might even be able to convince Creators to let them rent all the models in a whole bundle, all Poser models for a minimal $ pecentage . Humans are easy to be convinced. this way you rent Poser with all models for just a 100$ a month ! That would be really charming.

Fair enough, Shane, but what just about everyone in this debate seems to forget is what the actual issue is that I have with what they are doing. I understand that software rental and subscription systems are a valid, and for some even preferable, proposition. I understand and accept that. But what I don't accept is that they should be allowed to completely remove the option of the perpetual ownership of a licence. That is the part I have a problem with, and to make matters worse, they won't grant you one even after covering the cost of one!

I get emails all the time from e-on wanting me to subscribe to VUE, and fact is I would be delighted to subscribe to VUE providing that once I cover the cost of a perpetual licence, I would actually be granted one. It is the sheer greed and abuse of denying a perpetual licence (at any cost) that I will not abide, because there simply is no valid argument for that.

The same is true of Adobe, I actually have nothing against their products, I might even be a subscriber myself out of plain curiosity, as long as there's the promise of keeping what I paid for after covering the cost of a perpetual licence.

So I'm not against software rental or subscription models, but it should be law that subscriptions are exactly that, subscriptions, not rentals. I would never rent software, but I would subscribe if it actually were a subscription. I have piles of SoundOnSound magazines going back to the 90s, most of which landed through my door under a subscription to that magazine. I no longer subscribe to the magazine, but I still own those magazines perpetually, they're all mine just as they should be, cause I paid money for them, dammit!

Anyway, thanks for the heads-up about Americans now renting-out clothes and underwear without the need to even wash them before returning them, I mean WTF, whatever next.

I don't suppose you know where Erika Eleniak shops by any chance then, do you?

I really miss Baywatch, and I only used to watch it to see that everyone got rescued safely, honest

Forgot to mention the option to hock you credit card directly on poser this way you save time for the checkout. The trust me Poser model " we charge your CC automatically "

The problem with the rent forever model is when things go boom. Just to highlight the perfect example, anyone who used the CS-2 versions of Adobe products, or Audition 3, now have nothing more than disposable coasters. And if someone breaches the mighty Adobe system and wipes it, you have an entire market that has a maximum of 30 days to to finish their projects. Unless they have it all set up on the cloud, in which case there work may just vanish forever. After all the Cloud is Forever, right? Too many people seem to not understand that 'cloud' is code for 'distributed computing' which is code for 'All You Data Belong To Us!' Fortunately my After Effects was a CS-4 version and that activation server -seems- to be up and working.

But thanks to that, I have a handful of discs that are worthless, despite the fact that the progams on them are perfectly good and no more than I need atm. And its not like its impossible to do. Sonic Fire Pro manages quite handily; you can purchase and download one track at a time, or spring for a whole album and get physical media at your choice. When my CG box was horked due to a Win-10 upchuck, SFP-5 was the first program I had running due to the fact I had a stack of 23 discs of the albums I purchased over the years. It was the same with Iclone 5 and 3DXchange. Vue Infinite 15 took an email for a legacy activation key, but I at least can still use it. Adobe doesn't want my business, I have Hitfilm Express, Natron (after effects node type effects editor), Audacity, Gimp (but the learning curve looks about as steep as Blenders is, ouch), and those are just my current selections. An old version of Paint Shop Pro does enough to be quite useful.

The thing about the animation that I hope Bondware keeps in mind is that Poser is still the dirty little secret in a lot of animator's toolkit. We don't expect Maya from Poser.....and there are a lot of pros who use Poser for storyboarding, animatic and cinematics, and when they have a rush job and no time or funds to build, rig, and animate a custom figure. If the actual animation logic is more capable than it seems on the surface, then reconstructing the 'animation room' is more than logical. Adding, for example, the ability to create a persistent display dedicated to animation for those of us with dual or multiple monitors would be lovely. If one or two specific legacy meshes stands in the way, then either drop support for them or expand the tools to where they can be brought up to modern functionality. The weight mapping was a long overdue step there. If the logic supports both inverse and full kinematics, give us the controls to exploit them. But more than that, there would need to be a vanity project in tandem with any substantive upgrades in animation. Someone who can make a short that showcases the new. That has been Poser's bane for decades; a lack of demonstrating what it is capable of doing.

Dale B posted at 4:57PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375134

If one or two specific legacy meshes stands in the way, then either drop support for them or expand the tools to where they can be brought up to modern functionality. The weight mapping was a long overdue step there. If the logic supports both inverse and full kinematics, give us the controls to exploit them. But more than that, there would need to be a vanity project in tandem with any substantive upgrades in animation. Someone who can make a short that showcases the new. That has been Poser's bane for decades; a lack of demonstrating what it is capable of doing.

Poser's basic problem in the past has been one of dependence, which, ironically, is why getting involved with Genesis was both undesirable, and distasteful to them. Poser has always been a slave to a third party's figure. Renderosity itself used to sell a number of figures for use in Poser, but DAZ/Zygote had the advantage. When Poser did try to move forward and change the rigging on some of it's own included figures, it didn't catch on and they weren't usable in Studio.

EClark1894 posted at 6:37PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375138

Dale B posted at 4:57PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375134

If one or two specific legacy meshes stands in the way, then either drop support for them or expand the tools to where they can be brought up to modern functionality. The weight mapping was a long overdue step there. If the logic supports both inverse and full kinematics, give us the controls to exploit them. But more than that, there would need to be a vanity project in tandem with any substantive upgrades in animation. Someone who can make a short that showcases the new. That has been Poser's bane for decades; a lack of demonstrating what it is capable of doing.

Poser's basic problem in the past has been one of dependence, which, ironically, is why getting involved with Genesis was both undesirable, and distasteful to them. Poser has always been a slave to a third party's figure. Renderosity itself used to sell a number of figures for use in Poser, but DAZ/Zygote had the advantage. When Poser did try to move forward and change the rigging on some of it's own included figures, it didn't catch on and they weren't usable in Studio.

And one of the problems there was too many folks were panting and grasping for a 'Vickie Killer', and the simple fact was that Zygote/DAZ had a multi year head start on the pack, which put their support head and shoulders above anyone else. I've got most of the figures sold or available, and from an animation standpoint they were all quite usable. Some were only viable as background characters due to lack of content and support, but they were still serviceable. And careful use of dynamic clothing expanded that usage considerably. Even if Bondware fields the perfect figures, they'll have to get the support for it from vendors or they will be yet another entry in the list of viable figures that didn't take off.

Dale B posted at 5:23PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375146

Even if Bondware fields the perfect figures, they'll have to get the support for it from vendors or they will be yet another entry in the list of viable figures that didn't take off.

Egg, meet chicken. This has been an issue since Dina V came out ('member that one?), or Nude Young Woman (a DAZ production, ironically enough, which shows that they ain't immune to that rule either...) I have a buttload of insanely obscure figures that could be usable... if only they had more than a handful of clothes; Eroko, Alexa 2, Anime Doll, Neftoon Gal, Terai Yuki, Lo-Poly Girl... and a near-literal dozen more just like 'em - and sharecg-dot-com pops out yet another figure every month or so. Some figures like NearMe survive to this day (albeit procurable only by going to e-frontier's site to get one) because it has a buttload of clothing, hair, and texture maps (and folks even make new stuff for it today.)

Apps like WW, Cross-Dresser, and similar does help make a dent in this issue, but that relies on someone with the will and the time to bother maintaining their application. But then again, it ain't just clothing, is it? Textures, hair, weight-mapping, genitals (admit it, you thought of that too), etc etc etc... all the things that the Vickies (and Mikes) have that makes life easier to make stuff with.

(and to be honest, it's not just pretty chicks and studly dudes, y'all. How about some love for the robotic humanoids, a.k.a. Lolobot? That thing is cute as hell, and has a ton of potential... and fantasy creatures could use a bit of love as well.)

So yeah, an entire ecosystem is needed to support any new figure - not just clothing, or hair, or graftable boobs, or skins... all of it and more. Oh, and that figure has to be flexible and morphable enough to look like something entirely different than default, with no trace of having that default look.

Not as easy as it looked before, is it? Bondware is going to have to put a whole lot of 'oomph that I'm not sure it's prepared to pay for, just to fill in those content holes. Prolly why they're being real nice to Hivewire in recent times, methinks.

This is going to be a very difficult task atm. a long term project . The way things look they rather dismiss capable creators then to motivate them making good models. I do not think that a creator can afford to work 4 weeks on a model and just earn a few 100 bucks. Reading a little through these forums things rather tends that creators with potential would not be supported. A mentality that seems to be stuck, it is like going into a retirement home. It would be interesting to know " How many Poser Creators with potential are actually left in here that are capable of filling the mentioned holes? "

Hi Peng, You are quite correct of course. However I think a painful decsion has to be made sooner than later regarding legacy figure/content support. and dumping old vestigial figures like "Mikki" into included bundles only makes moving forward more difficult

You wont be able to truly modernize your program until you have uniform figure standards that can be implemented across the entire software feature set ,particulary any updated animation& clothing content rigging tools.

Bondware has already taken steps to kill off older intra competing versions of poser and get all users on the same version ,a Wise move IMHO

They have taken a firm (albeit controversial) position on keeping the "phone home" feature.

IMHO they really need to forcefully settle the competing figures dilemma one way or another and begin the careful process of updating the features of the core program to work with standardized native figures. The way they all used to with the EF& SM natives

Daz had the advantage of doing this with every version of Daz studio from the outset. First with Millenuim 3 and eventually genesis of course.

Reallusion has taken the approach of shape projection to enable their native avatars to impersonate the shapes of a few choice, popular third party figures imported via CC3 (Daz genesis ,V4,M4 & Hivewire bases).

Done!!!... moving on.

Now they have turned their focus INWARD and introduced two native features for the Iclone/CC3 NATIVE avatars in the form of a much needed human SSS skin shader system and facegen type "headshot" plugin for creating Iclone avatars from your real life photos of people..

They have updated the realtime lighting system and the Iclone core user base is thrilled.

Bondware owns the Poser figure platform it is time to start acting like a landlord and take full agency.

wolf359 posted at 6:22AM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375151

They have taken a firm (albeit controversial) position on keeping the "phone home" feature.

This is what I wanted to find out about, it's the reason I started the thread, so do you have a link? That's really all that interests me at this point, cause as I said, I won't be purchasing software that requires a constant or repetitive internet connection. Such things have total disregard for people with little to no internet connectivity, and does not respect those who understandably refuse to connect their graphics work computer to the internet, for any reason.

The solution for non-connected computer users, is to have the software generate a hardware code that you send to Bondware, which in turn generates an activation code for you. You then paste that activation code into your non-connected software and it is activated. Bondware would be the only entity that knows who owns a Poser12 licence, therefore, since they have the power to refuse multiple activations without deactivation, there's no reason Poser should need a permanent internet connection.

Like I said from the very first post, that's really all I wanted to know at this point, Blender is always there for me (and everyone else).

I think it has been stated Here

@4371937

Bondware might even be able to convince Creators to let them rent all the models in a whole bundle, all Poser models for a minimal $ pecentage . Humans are easy to be convinced. this way you rent Poser with all models for just a 100$ a month ! That would be really charming.

The thing is...rent has to be really cheap compared to buying in order to work. If Photoshop is an example, the equivalent cost for Poser would be $2 or $3 a month. Would people be willing to "rent" Poser and "all models" for, say, $5 a month? I think they would, but it wouldn't be worth it for Rosity. It would be a huge hassle to administer, and they just don't have the volume.

The problem with the rent forever model is when things go boom. Just to highlight the perfect example, anyone who used the CS-2 versions of Adobe products, or Audition 3, now have nothing more than disposable coasters. And if someone breaches the mighty Adobe system and wipes it, you have an entire market that has a maximum of 30 days to to finish their projects. Unless they have it all set up on the cloud, in which case there work may just vanish forever.

This is an issue. Adobe customers in Venezuela were cut off for a short time, when Adobe decided Trump's policies did not allow them to operate in Venezuela (including offering refunds!). They were granted an exemption, and service resumed.

But you'd have more than a month if the server went offline or you lost internet access. It's one calendar month plus 99 days before you're cut off.

I mean, the "coaster" problem is separate from the subscription issue. I have several programs like that, too - I own them outright, but I can't install them because the activation server is offline. Those pleck me off a lot more than the subscription model does. I bought the software assuming I could use it as long as I wanted to, but if I can't install it, it's useless. And if you try to contact the company, the only thing they do is offer you a discount on new software, if they respond at all. (Vue being the exception. I'm not subscribing, but I have nothing but praise for their customer service.)

@Retrowave here is what a Bondware employee officialy stated:

for information's sake...we didn't START The Poser software calling home. That has been in place since Poser Pro 2014. And we intend to continue it. There is a path to extend the time allowed before the software is required to phone home again. But otherwise this is what it is and will not be changing.<

So it's all Blender for you Mate

Penguinisto posted at 8:26AM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375147

Dale B posted at 5:23PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375146

Even if Bondware fields the perfect figures, they'll have to get the support for it from vendors or they will be yet another entry in the list of viable figures that didn't take off.

Egg, meet chicken. This has been an issue since Dina V came out ('member that one?), or Nude Young Woman (a DAZ production, ironically enough, which shows that they ain't immune to that rule either...) I have a buttload of insanely obscure figures that could be usable... if only they had more than a handful of clothes; Eroko, Alexa 2, Anime Doll, Neftoon Gal, Terai Yuki, Lo-Poly Girl... and a near-literal dozen more just like 'em - and sharecg-dot-com pops out yet another figure every month or so. Some figures like NearMe survive to this day (albeit procurable only by going to e-frontier's site to get one) because it has a buttload of clothing, hair, and texture maps (and folks even make new stuff for it today.)

Hey Peng, Long time no see! Of course I remember Dina; her and Natalia are near the top of my cattle call list just for the Non Vickie looks alone. Add the character morphing of some of the past masters and they work very well. I've probably got most of those figures, although I haven't mined ShareCG for awhile. Had a spate of surgeries for varying health concerns (most having to do with 35 years, 8 hours a day 6 days a week on a concrete sales floor), and horked CG box, so just now getting things straightened out again.

Apps like WW, Cross-Dresser, and similar does help make a dent in this issue, but that relies on someone with the will and the time to bother maintaining their application. But then again, it ain't just clothing, is it? Textures, hair, weight-mapping, genitals (admit it, you thought of that too), etc etc etc... all the things that the Vickies (and Mikes) have that makes life easier to make stuff with.

Genitalia? I? I just have all of Arduino's creations and Ghu only knows how many cranks and other assorted bits and bobs hidden in various archives. You can always spot a sexless hip section if you use dynamic skirts and pants, after all. Not so important when in conforming (although highly amusing when something pokes through with a mesh explosion). But the one thing about the analogy is that Once Upon A Time, Zygote presented to the world.... Poser Dude and Posette. They started in the technical basement and built from there. An ecosystem is an interactive thing that grows and evolves. No one has the brainpower or the dinero to create such a thing and plop it in front of the world.

(and to be honest, it's not just pretty chicks and studly dudes, y'all. How about some love for the robotic humanoids, a.k.a. Lolobot? That thing is cute as hell, and has a ton of potential... and fantasy creatures could use a bit of love as well.)

Tell me about it.

So yeah, an entire ecosystem is needed to support any new figure - not just clothing, or hair, or graftable boobs, or skins... all of it and more. Oh, and that figure has to be flexible and morphable enough to look like something entirely different than default, with no trace of having that default look.

Not as easy as it looked before, is it? Bondware is going to have to put a whole lot of 'oomph that I'm not sure it's prepared to pay for, just to fill in those content holes. Prolly why they're being real nice to Hivewire in recent times, methinks.

Well, it doesn't hurt to be nice to a vendor, until both sides get freaky about features and costs to support, which both SM and DAZ did. And in this instance Bondware now owns the program that they've been making content money off of for decades. The P4 compatible market is dying, literally. Solidifying a new base program is a good first step to bringing a new paradigm into play. I just hope they remember that one of Poser' greatest strengths was it interoperability with other programs. Keep that and enhance things with a more capable figure set (and the full family; don't forget the kids, infants and oldsters), they have a good shot. DAZ has gone one way, and thats fine. They need to forge their own path.

@Azath - Cheers mate, and man, that's a whole three-pager I can look forward to reading through

@Wolf - You are absolutely right, it's Blender all the way for me then

I will of course hang around to see if they come to their senses, drop the pointless E.T. fetish for "Phooooooooone Hooooooooome", and implement the sort of stuff I would like to see. But what should really concern you (and Bondware), is I get that warm and fuzzy feeling inside, secure in the knowledge that I can pickup DazToBlender8 for $15, and get to work with Genesis8 figures directly inside the mighty Blender, with all it's freedom, power, and majesty.

Point being, Wolf, so can every other user out there

The days of commercial developers having the upper hand are long dead. The very advent of Open Source nailed that coffin well and truly shut, many, many years ago. So despite my admitted sarcasm in this reply, I do genuinely hope they see sense, not just for their own future, but for the future of Poser as well. They're in a good position right now through the acquisition of Poser, and it is their own ability to spot dangerous and outright suicidal moves that will ultimately decide whether they sink or swim, so we'll see.

Personally, I'd love to see them swim!

Poser figures to Blender with 2 klick's

Azath posted at 12:46PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375165

Poser figures to Blender with 2 klick's

Exactly the reason Poser still exists and seems to be in a lot of toolkits. As long as they maintain (and frankly expand) the ease of interoperability with other programs, Poser will have a future growth path.

Wrong, Poser does not have the benefit of such reliance as yet, because:

• DAZ Figures are currently superior
• DAZ Studio, the program required to export those superior figures to Blender, happens to be FREE, not $200

You must be able to see the fatal flaw in your thinking, otherwise you are suggesting that customers would rather pay $200 to export inferior figures from Poser, than pay $15 for a plugin to export superior figures from DAZ Studio.

I should be getting paid for this, I really should

Anyway, just off to read that other thread, but even before I do, one thing that appears to be off the cards, is the idea of Poser being purchased with a view to it being released for free as way to capture and drive customers to Bondware. The reason I say that is because there would be no need for them to concern themselves with pointless copy protection if they were intending to release it for free. So that question appears to have already answered itself, unfortunate as it is.

Here's the problem as I see it. Let's factor in additional costs. I heard some one say $100 a month and called it reasonable. multiply that by 12 and it becomes $1200 annually. Still sound reasonable? Okay, let's add in internet connection costs. I use cable, but lets reduce it to $40 a month. Annually, that's $480. And let's just say I'm buying about $50 of content per month. Annually, that's $600. So far that's $2280 a year. What had been a nice escapist hobby for me has now become unaffordable. I've managed to jump through some hoops these past few months to keep my internet connected. I'm still behind though.

-- The Rent a model library , was meant in a ironic way to make you realize how much it would cost if Poser would go to a subscription model -- People often just think in short terms , but do not calculate the amount they have spent over a year, the ones who do will for sure not pay for a Poser subscription, but Bondware might find enough stupid people that will.

Poser figures to Blender with 2 klick's has not been released, a work in progress. It does not need Poser to run it just needs access to the poser models that are automatically converted in both directions. It might give some insurance for the ones who will not have further access to poser, allowing them on using there Poser models in Blender , as alternative to Daz Studio.

Dale B posted at 2:55PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375166

Exactly the reason Poser still exists and seems to be in a lot of toolkits. As long as they maintain (and frankly expand) the ease of interoperability with other programs, Poser will have a future growth path.

Exactly the reason why it has not been released to avoid potential abuse that could be done making allot of $$$$$ as the Plugin goes in both directions , it would make Poser very popular as any model could be exported with just a click. Who do you think will make a big profit ? They would milk the customers and creators big time . A free plugin can result to be a good idea for some , for others just useful to fill there Pockets with gold. This happen already with allot of cheap addons for Poser.

"Some things you do not want to know how it got popular as it did not happen in a regular and fair way."

Look at it this way : If you go to a Rip site you will find 5-10 power posters that share stuff worth millions, do you think they could afford buying them to share ? who would really be able to afford sharing such an amount ? Who would make the most profit out of it ? sometimes there are methods used to increase product popularity in unethical ways.

Don't sweat it, Clarkie. I know that's fresh coming from me (one who debates so much himself) but seriously mate, I'm only half-way through that three-page thread about the activation stuff, and everything expected from the users has pretty much been proven true.

It is perfectly clear that users these days have gotten wise to the liberties being taken with them (it's about bloody time as well), liberties that no product creator should ever be able to take with a product or licence that changed hands for money.

If you buy a car outright, then you are the only one who should own the key to the ignition of that car. The car salesman has no right whatsoever, to take away or break what you have paid for. Software is no different, regardless of the fact that people seem to think it is. So when you are faced with an entity, be it over physical or licensed goods. who does not agree with this most fundamental function of society, then that entity needs to be avoided regardless of any attachment you might have to it.

So don't sweat it, Clarkie, you're a long-time Blender user already, and Blender wouldn't dream of letting you down, would she, not least when you lack an internet connection. She doesn't care who you are, where you live, or how piss-poor or rich you might be, she will always be there for you, kicking corporate ass into orbit while freeing the users she pulls from their clutches.

She's a real beauty, not only in her AAA-CGI abilities, but her outlook on life, too (we've never had it so good)

I'll read the rest of that thread tomorrow. I already know the outcome, and really hope that Bondware will change course, but I did spot Jack Nicholson (one of my favourite actors) posting in there as well, so I feel like I have to read the rest of it regardless!

I suppose the bottom line is this: Potential customers need only be concerned about licenses, activations, and internet requirements if there were no alternatives out there. But as the biggest alternative in the CGI industry also happens to be both free and free of each of those issues, I'd say there is no cause for concern - there really isn't a more polite way to put it.

Regardless of what happens, I personally will be very interested to see which route Bondware ultimately takes with Poser, and the outcome that becomes of it. It interests me because much as I hate to blow my own horn, I am always right in my predictions!

Always!

Yeah, problem with Blender though is while it may be free, the hardware and software isn't. I'll have to upgrade all of that to use 2.8xx. I'll probably have to upgrade to use a new version of Poser as well, so for now, I'm stuck where I am.

Btw, I was posting a few freebies online in this forum. But several posters expressed their dislike of the posts, so I stopped. Too bad. I just found a YouTube video that claims this app lets you use your phone as a motion capture scanner. I haven't tried it on Poser figures yet, but it does work in Blender and on FBX figures, so it should work on Poser.

wolf359 posted at 3:51PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375151

IMHO they really need to forcefully settle the competing figures dilemma one way or another and begin the careful process of updating the features of the core program to work with standardized native figures. The way they all used to with the EF& SM natives

Well... sorta. Locking in the app to one set of figures is just as damaging as it would be to let world+dog just do their thing and consign it all with no preference as to what gets blessed (which was Bondware's MO for decades now...)

After all, trying to set a single standard only leads to, well...

Daz had the advantage of doing this with every version of Daz studio from the outset. First with Millenuim 3 and eventually genesis of course.

Yes and no. They only supported and sold the Unimesh figures as "DAZ Official", freely allowed quality products for those, but won't sell competing figures for DS. On the other hand, they won't rig DS to exclude other figures, and they've even been known to pick up third-party figures and incorporate them outright (e.g. The Girl) when opportunity strikes, eventually absorbing the shape into their rigging.

Seems a bit confusing, but Bondware needs to do something similar, methinks. Have an officially blessed set of humanoid figures, then allow no other on Renderosity. BUT, do not have Poser restrict other figures from being used in it.

Umm, that said, they won't do that.They make waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of their income by selling stuff (clothes, hair, poses, whatever) for the Genesis figures.

Bondware owns the Poser figure platform it is time to start acting like a landlord and take full agency.

They should, but I bet their financials won't let them fully do so... at least not for awhile.

Dale B posted at 5:21PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375160

Hey Peng, Long time no see! Of course I remember Dina; her and Natalia are near the top of my cattle call list just for the Non Vickie looks alone. Add the character morphing of some of the past masters and they work very well. I've probably got most of those figures, although I haven't mined ShareCG for awhile. Had a spate of surgeries for varying health concerns (most having to do with 35 years, 8 hours a day 6 days a week on a concrete sales floor), and horked CG box, so just now getting things straightened out again.

I know the feeling... I'm sitting here with a hernia patch freshly installed and a 3-year-old stent sitting in my chest keeping the artery in front of my heart open. This getting old crap sucks.

Apologies for the delay, but the missus was making a fresh batch of kimchi and unless I pitch in and help when she needs a hand, I don't get none of it, so...

An ecosystem is an interactive thing that grows and evolves. No one has the brainpower or the dinero to create such a thing and plop it in front of the world.

True - but you gotta kickstart one somehow... doubly so if you're about to change the entire paradigm from content-on-consignment to master-of-your-own-application...

The P4 compatible market is dying, literally. Solidifying a new base program is a good first step to bringing a new paradigm into play. I just hope they remember that one of Poser' greatest strengths was it interoperability with other programs. Keep that and enhance things with a more capable figure set (and the full family; don't forget the kids, infants and oldsters), they have a good shot. DAZ has gone one way, and thats fine. They need to forge their own path.

Yep. They have a little bit of runway left to figure out where they're going to go, but not a whole lot... so I hope they do figure out what path they're going to make.

Penguinisto posted at 8:37PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375186

wolf359 posted at 3:51PM Wed, 01 January 2020 - #4375151

IMHO they really need to forcefully settle the competing figures dilemma one way or another and begin the careful process of updating the features of the core program to work with standardized native figures. The way they all used to with the EF& SM natives

Yes and no. They only supported and sold the Unimesh figures as "DAZ Official", freely allowed quality products for those, but won't sell competing figures for DS. On the other hand, they won't rig DS to exclude other figures, and they've even been known to pick up third-party figures and incorporate them outright (e.g. The Girl) when opportunity strikes, eventually absorbing the shape into their rigging.

Seems a bit confusing, but Bondware needs to do something similar, methinks. Have an officially blessed set of humanoid figures, then allow no other on Renderosity. BUT, do not have Poser restrict other figures from being used in it.

Umm, that said, they won't do that.They make waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much of their income by selling stuff (clothes, hair, poses, whatever) for the Genesis figures.

Not just the Genesis figures. Poser has a long list of figures that it supports up to and even including the Genesis figures. Plus, let us not forget they also sell items for Hivewire, and Project E. But the main reason Bondware won't touch that is because Poser supports a long line of legacy content, all of which would break if Poser stopped supporting it.

Btw, Retrowave, you're doing a lot of shouting from the mountaintops about moving to Blender, so... have you??? Got any renders to show over on the Blender forum here?

Blender needs money to survive too, donations or from subscribers to their cloud service. I used to be a software developer so somewhat biased but someone from the creative industry sector arguing for free access to someone else's work seems to ignore the position they are also in. Open source software is great but I don't think the model can be applied to everything, people still need to get paid either directly or indirectly for the work they do.

@Clarkie - I moved over to Blender many years ago, but still do love Poser and its interface. I do not have a single animation or render produced in any program I have ever used, not Blender, not Poser, not anything. Not anything I would consider good enough to be artistic enough for my gallery, anyway. In fact, I've never uploaded an image to a gallery in my life.

And this is where a lot of my frustration stems from, cause I feel like after all this time, I really need to be getting on at least with some animation shorts. I've had ideas for movie shorts for years now, and I did jump deep into Blender 2.76 to get a feel for the rigging and animation possibilities. But then the whole 2.8 thing picked-up, so I decided to wait a bit and see what changes were made in 2.8, then hopefully make a start once that version had reached maturity. And now that it has, it's really just my own hardware situation that is getting in the way. I bought a new laptop with the goal of being capable of running Blender's fancy new viewport, and it does that, but I'm unsure at the moment whether I should keep it, or return it and build a new desktop PC instead.

So I already am a Blender user in the fullest sense of the word. But whenever Poser is being preparing for a major new release, I always show interest, because it's a program I love using, and I would love for it to catch up in the area is has clearly become a failure, that being animation. It is true that there is literally nothing I would not be able to do in Blender. But it is also true that I would likely get things done quicker in Poser if only the animation side of things were updated.

This is why that DazToBlender8 plugin is an attractive proposition right now. I have no desire to punish myself in the creation of my own figures, what would be the point when 3D sculptors and riggers with bags of talent have already done that for me? All I want is an animation environment I am comfortable enough with to be able to work fast. Animaion can be time consuming, so I'm after something realtime and very obvious in the way it is used. It's not as if the animation shorts I wish to produce even need to look realistic, they don't, I just want them to act as viable pre-visualisation for live-action. It depends though, if I think it's something I could make look ok as an animation without taking too much time, then I might make them with the intention of being an animation.

So while it might look like I'm shouting "Blender" from the mountain tops, what I am really doing is sending out a reminder that it exists, and it's existence cannot be ignored when competing in a market such as this. Ignore the sheer power of the business model upon which Blender was built, and you will be eaten-up by it. That is not to suggest that Poser should be Open Source, it is merely to suggest that whatever business model Bondware chooses to take with Poser, that it is a viable one that recognises the very real threat of the competition they have in Blender and DAZ.

I even read in that thread yesterday that DAZ have finally realised that DRM is not the way to do it, and have therefore removed it going forward. I say well done DAZ, it is not surprising they do well, they learn from their mistakes and thrive as a result. They also clearly realise that in the face of Open Source competition like Blender, the safest way to compete, is to go free too, and make your money from the content your program attracts instead.

And do you know how to test that theory without fail?

DAZ have tried both business models now, selling DAZ Studio at a price, and giving it away for free. They're obviously sticking to the free business model because that's the one that pulls-in the profit - they wouldn't be using it otherwise!

ironsoul posted at 6:27AM Thu, 02 January 2020 - #4375212

Blender needs money to survive too, donations or from subscribers to their cloud service. I used to be a software developer so somewhat biased but someone from the creative industry sector arguing for free access to someone else's work seems to ignore the position they are also in. Open source software is great but I don't think the model can be applied to everything, people still need to get paid either directly or indirectly for the work they do.

You're right, actually. I saw a video about it yesterday, and was going to post about it, but didn't want to start an argument. Still, Blender's biggest asset is that it has virtually a unlimited number of programmers "working" for it... for free. It also has several who DO get paid, and they have to make money. Blender in addition to it's Cloud service, also has the Blender Foundation to which large corporations and individuals can contribute money, and they also sell products like t-shirts, coffee mugs, etc. I also know they have a store, which I actually bought something from one time. So Blender's not really "free". Someone else is just paying for it.

Same thing for Studio. I've never paid "for" Studio. but any one who has ever bought anything at DAZ has paid for Studio.

Retrowave posted at 6:45AM Thu, 02 January 2020 - #4375219

@Clarkie - I moved over to Blender many years ago, but still do love Poser and its interface. I do not have a single animation or render produced in any program I have ever used, not Blender, not Poser, not anything. Not anything I would consider good enough to be artistic enough for my gallery, anyway. In fact, I've never uploaded an image to a gallery in my life.

And this is where a lot of my frustration stems from, cause I feel like after all this time, I really need to be getting on at least with some animation shorts. I've had ideas for movie shorts for years now, and I did jump deep into Blender 2.76 to get a feel for the rigging and animation possibilities. But then the whole 2.8 thing picked-up, so I decided to wait a bit and see what changes were made in 2.8, then hopefully make a start once that version had reached maturity. And now that it has, it's really just my own hardware situation that is getting in the way. I bought a new laptop with the goal of being capable of running Blender's fancy new viewport, and it does that, but I'm unsure at the moment whether I should keep it, or return it and build a new desktop PC instead.

So I already am a Blender user in the fullest sense of the word. But whenever Poser is being preparing for a major new release, I always show interest, because it's a program I love using, and I would love for it to catch up in the area is has clearly become a failure, that being animation. It is true that there is literally nothing I would not be able to do in Blender. But it is also true that I would likely get things done quicker in Poser if only the animation side of things were updated.

Well, as you know, I am a Blender user as well. Started back just before Roxie came out, so you've seen the renders I've done of stuff I made for her. I stopped rendering altogether before I made the Poser Content Directory, and I was even selling a few things at Content Paradise. But now I'm back to rendering in Blender. The reasons are many, but I like to make props for use in Poser, and I have more control over the shading and rendering in Blender than in Poser. Here are a couple of things I've rendered in Blender in just the past few weeks. Ironically, they're props I'm making for Poser. For the moment they're unavailable, but I may make them available for free just to see how they look in Poser.

I believe the main reason of such shouts is the frustration of users on how things are being handled. Most feel being cheated on !

All this is resulting in different categories:

The one who shouts demonstrating the frustration, fears and worries. ( He will not be heard even if he tells, he just is getting ignored by the ones who are in charge ) this can for sure cause an escalation, so he will be blamed for the leak of information.

The silent, he will not show up, in most cases he just will use something else if it is not in he's comfort.

The followers, these will do anything to convince others that it is good the way it happens, without being able to give any information why, as they do not know more then the one who shouts.

Such situations always appear if things are not clear and if people are left in the dark ( Take it or leave it ) .The Chaos Theory.

Lets face reality

all this results into a mayor splitt up. Some support the changes, some take it as it is but will slow down there investments, some jump to another application and will not return, most will do anything to get a hacked version, that avoids all above mentioned hassles, to be on the secure side.

Users and creators try to release new flagship's to save there passion, these just fade away, the ones who are in charge just keep the silence, leaving the long term members in the Dark.

This has been the first time in history that Poser got a new owner on a existing version forcing users to change, all others made a new release to avoid such a disaster. It is the first time in history that two versions got shut down. Stealing the money and trust of honest costumers. All this will cause a major change, the trust in Poser has fallen to the ground and it will be very difficult to bring it back. People might forgive but they do not forget.

Well... sorta. Locking in the app to one set of figures is just as damaging as it would be to let world+dog just do their thing and consign it all with no preference as to what gets blessed (which was Bondware's MO for decades >now...)

I am not suggesting Bondware Make poser exclusive to one set of figures.

Third parties should be free to take their chances ,in the poser market with any exotic/niche figures/mechs/creatures that are not fully compatible with all of the figure specific program features.

The Daz PA, "DZfire" produces excellent Sci fi mech figures that have nothing to do with the genesis 8 bases or their core Daz studio prime features.... good for him.

I dont have poser 11 (only poser pro 2014 windows)

I suppose that technically Paul&Pauline can use all of the native figure features like the walk/talk designer fitting room etc.

But what figure was on the cover of the Bondware poser 11 rebranded"box"??

Understandably as Paul&Paulines poor quality sundered them effectvely DOA.

However you limit your market to the same old portrait /pinup crowd, if your primary poser female/shemale, is a third party figure that wont be compatible with all of your native figure program features.

IMHO Daz studio only became a better character animation platform ,than poser, at version 4.10 when they fixed BVH import for the G3 figures so they could correctly parse BVH motion data created with THEIR VERY OWN FBX SKELETONS in Autodesk Motionbuilder and Iclone.

Poser never had this problem.

I was importing BVH from Iclone 5.x and ragdoll physics from Endorphin to use on P6 Jessi and James ,in poser, as well as using the old Poser physics python plugin for ragdoll& rigid body (building collapses) actions as well.

My IMDB listing is for an animation $$commission$$ ,for a 40 second fake on screen video game sequence, in a feature Film,animated with poser 6 and "Koji" from content paradise...

Now yes it was rendered in C4D with the defunct "Interposer pro" plugin However the animation was all hand keyed in poser and the ragdoll crash and fall physics were simulated in poser with Paul kinnanes Python physics plugin for Poser.

I have made alot of money doing commericial animation with only Poser.

So why did us poser animators leave long before Daz studio became truly viable with version 4.10?? even with the addition of a poser bullet physics & soft body dynamics system that is actually quite decent but too little.. too late every thing else considered.

For one thing, the native poser figures got progressively worse after P6 Jessie&James/koji.

While DS Genesis 1-2 ,with their standardized bone rigs, were getting direct support by Reallusion Iclone and their exported BVH Data always worked in Daz studio.

And then there is the nonlinear motion clip system(animated 2), that Daz took from "gofigure" and bundled into Daz studio free.

while the Poser motion layer system remained utterly useless.

Not that it mattered as NONE of the various,exotic third party "savior" figures had a standardized bone rig for using any of the native poser animation tools or could be made to speak from audio based lipsynch tools in poser. And they ALL were largely dependant on their creators for new clothing content.

Sure Antonia,ApolloMax ,Project E, et all. could be technically used In Iclone and Autodesk MOBU after some tedious manual bone remapping.

But where is the incentive when you can retarget a Genesis figure with one mouse click and have your figure ready to be animated, audio lipsynced,accept human optical mocap hardware data and export as FBX or alembic to a game engine or some other 3DCC for high quality rendering

Thus animated filmakers Like Myself or Tim Vining of "Star Trek Aurora"were left with few options staying with poser and moved to Daz/Iclone.

So going forward,even modernizing the animation & clothing rigging tool sets will not expand the user base, or bring in new content creators, if they open poser and find they have to forego the higher quality, crowd sourced third party adoptees and exhume substandard figures like Paul&Pauline, rex roxy etc,from their Digital graves ,to use all of the native tools listed in the program feature Descriptions.

No they haven't, they've paid for the product they wanted, and did so because they own the program it was designed to run in.

You're pretty much taking the Open Source thing to mean working for free, but again, that is not true. The Blender Foundation have goals that need to be met in order for them to pay the programmers who create much of the program you get for free. This means that there's genuinely no cost to the user of Blender, and the coders who make it happen, unless voluntary, do get paid. With Blender, there are no shareholders to keep happy, so what they do is set goals they wish to meet, and regardless of the time it takes to reach them, do not make a start on them until the money is there to pay for it.

It's the business model of the future, one so open they have a section of their website showing how much money has arrived into the foundation, each and every month, and how long we can expect to wait for projected features to arrive in Blender. So while you are correct that it does get paid for by someone, it is not a requirement of the business model Blender uses, because regardless of whether it got paid for or not, it would still happen eventually purely through volunteers, it would just take much longer, just as it used to do back in the early days.

People are prepared to pay for something that is free because they understand the importance of supporting freedom, and that supporting the Blender Foundation is the polar opposite of supporting something that is closed, can lock you out, abuse you, and effect the viability of your business. No one who relies upon Blender for their business, will ever be let down by it, shut-out of it, or have any part of it they depend upon, taken away.

The fact that you can download Blender and use it, abuse it, sell it, rebrand it, proves that it is truly a free product. You will also never be forced to enter a serial number of have Blender connected to the internet, because again, it would be completely pointless as the product is truly there for your benefit, not theirs.

Sorry Clarkie, a whole bunch of posts just swept by me while writing my previous reply, are looking very nice!

Sorry Clarkie, a whole bunch of posts just swept by me while writing my previous reply, those are looking very nice!

Azath

There has been plenty of information released as to why the upgrade to poser 11.2 was required, but getting people to read it was a different matter. Then it only takes a few people spreading incorrect and misleading information. to confuse the situation

Lets clarify. Poser Pro2014 game dev and and poser11 versions stopped working because Smith Micro closed down their servers. This is a fact.

Did the deal between SM and Bondware include the requirement that Bondware takeover responsibility for serving these licences thus releasing SM from its promises that in the case of the demise of SM contingency plans had been put in place to allow those poser versions to continue working, or did SM unilaterally decide that they were no longer involved with poser so all commitments to poser users were now null and void? Only those involved in the deal know.

In either case Bondware then produced a FREE upgrade so that everybody using poser versions affected by the SM server closure (except for those using poser on a 32 bit system admittedly) then had working versions of poser..

So Bondware had no option but to release an interim update to keep poser working. If it had called it poser 12, it would have made no difference, poser 11 would have stopped working and all poser 11 users would have been forced to update only to find they had the same version of poser as they previously had, and would really have felt cheated.

And of course poser 2014gamedev and poser11 basic users got a free upgrade to poser 11 pro

So where has money been stolen? No-one has had to pay for the update? Why has trust been stolen, Bondware rushed to get a working version of the software to users, gave many of them a free upgrade and also provide a large amount of extra free content.

But some people are never satisfied, can never look at the situation with a balanced view and will do nothing but complain, posting ridiculous and inaccurate comments such as your statement about stealing money from customers.

Need a 'like' or 'upvote' button here. Thanks, Nails60.

Matter of fact it will be upon the customers to decide if they feel good about it or not. The act was wrong from either side SM and Bondware. would Bondware not of bought Poser then SM would of been forced to keep it running, they would of dropped support but not deactivated the running versions. it is seen on many of there Applications that are not further Developed. What is happening now, is all based upon Bondware decisions, SM can not be blamed for it.

At the end the comportment of Bondware will be the key if poser will have a future or not. The way things are looking now there will not be a big chance for it. poser might still get sold a little but Creators will slowly vanish, as there Income will fall to the ground. Bondware just took the wrong turn Insisting to keep a Kill switch. Daz will laugh hes head off and get even larger due the mistakes Bondware is making .

Azath posted at 8:24AM Thu, 02 January 2020 - #4375153

I think it has been stated Here

4371937

Thank you so much!

I was trying to find that post by jennblake to answer the original question of this thread and couldn't.

ironsoul posted at 6:45AM Thu, 02 January 2020 - #4375212

Blender needs money to survive too, donations or from subscribers to their cloud service. I used to be a software developer so somewhat biased but someone from the creative industry sector arguing for free access to someone else's work seems to ignore the position they are also in. Open source software is great but I don't think the model can be applied to everything, people still need to get paid either directly or indirectly for the work they do.

I run a team of codemonkeys... and yep, we like to get paid. The little OSS projects are done on a volunteer basis, but the big ones (e.g. the Linux kernel as a huge ferinstance) are either adopted whole or in part, or are supported by a consortium. Often, companies fund their OSS efforts by selling support contracts and by selling popular-but-proprietary software on the side (ex. Redhat owns/sells JBoss to support RHEL.) Many are funded by their own non-profit foundations.

What I don't want to waste too many more chars on is that what you describe already happens.

Azath

So you think it would have been better for SM not to have sold poser, just drop it, they had already parted with the development staff, no future development at all, no support and somehow this would be better, rather than Bondware buying it. Mac users already knew that it wouldn't work on new versions of the Mac OS, at some stage it would probably stop working due to a Windows update, poser dead!

You haven't said how anybody is worse off.

Penguinisto posted at 10:14AM Thu, 02 January 2020 - #4375247

What I don't want to waste too many more chars on is that what you describe already happens.

Yup, and what a lot of people don't realise is that even though Blender itself is Open Source, companies like Autodesk intentionally inconvenience their own customers by routinely changing their formats just to make it harder for them to work with the competition.

There's a video, not far off two hours long with Ton Roosendaal, a great watch if you're a fan of or curious about the history and working of all things Blender, and how and why they do things the way they do. There's even a section in the video where he reveals the sort of practices Autodesk get up to, and you can tell that Ton really couldn't care less what they do, he just sees it for the pointless format war that it is.

Blender is right up there now, despite Autodesk's best efforts to prevent it, hahaha. The Autodesk discussion starts at 46:53, but I recommend both Autodesk renters and Blender owners watch all of it CLICK FOR VIDEO

Nails60

they could of bought the right to develop Poser further in the future just like Sm did from e-frontier Sm made Poser7 as there first release after Poser6 from e-frontier they developed a new release but did not force users to drop Poser 6 , they left it as it was. Same thing Bondware could of done, but there Greed did not let it happen as they wanted the Licences and the Customers all in one package.

The short version would of been, to announce .... we "Bondware" will be the future developers of Poser, stay tuned for a great release of Poser 12 . SM would of dropped support for Poser 11 but leave it running for there customers, Legally they would of been forced to, either by removing the Internet activation, or keep it online.

This is the common method that is used by serious companies , Today and in the Past. What happen now is based on absolute Greed, by misleading customers and users.

You just have been blinded by lies and corruption nothing else

All this is actually none of my business, but you folks should be a little more open minded. Open your eyes to see the truth. They don't want what is best for you, they want what is best for them, they will try in any possible way making you believe that it was the best for you.