The 3D application no matter witch it is, is only as good as the user that is using it. The more experienced the user the better the Application. Comparing poser with DS : Ds better, it has better Creators, Poser have less experienced 3D Creators. Consequence: poser gives the impression of minor capacities compared to DS, Resulting to get less positive publicity. You will not make any Impression trying to sell a Playstation one now days, you need to work with the actual evolution. Poser with the actual minor disposal of good creators will have a hard time to assert them selves in the market. Especially insisting to control it with a active Internet connection, small enterprises will avoid it as long as it is not handled in a professional way, a high security risk. There sure is a big lack of information concerning Poser at the moment.

Where I see Poser used is in relatively low budget productions that don't need any CGI wow. I recently completed my annual corporate training, and in those videos I saw James as an evil spear-fishing hacker. (Like a lot of Poser males in corporate videos, he didn't even have any hair. That bulbous head is unmistakable.) I also saw Jessie driving a forklift in a safety video. Her clothing and hair were right out of the box. I believe they made her boobs smaller (the opposite of what people here usually want ;-), and added a hardhat and vest.

The G2 figures seem to be pretty popular for this kind of thing, because they're ethnically diverse. Sure, you can make Vicky or Dawn or LF into Asian or black or Hispanic characters, but they don't change the figures much for these things. They use them right out of the box.

@Wolf - I used to use iClone and understand why you're hesitant to update the pipeline you have working, and I say thumbs-up to you for sticking with the generation of figure that works for you regardless of trend. I remember myself feeling like using G1 was the way to do it in iClone (before Character Creator arrived), but sadly I never owned the Pipeline version of iClone, and by the time I had added-up everything I needed, the price was absolutely prohibitive.

Sounds like you're obsessing over motion generation in your pipeline, and that's fine, so am I. That's why I wish Bondware would ditch that bloody awful Walk Designer from Poser, and replace it with a modern Procedural Animation Generator that can be used to generate walks, but also, a lot more besides. Upgrade the timeline with much nicer animation layering and editing workflow as well, and Poser as an animation tool would be back in the land of the living.

Personally, the whole idea of needing a "pipeline" always annoys me. I prefer to do everything in one program if I can, but at the most I have always stuck to a very strict rule I set myself if ever a pipeline is involved. The rule is that whatever program I chose to render in, must also be the program I animate in. That's why that new plugin is perfect for me. I can send DAZ Studio to the trashcan once a figure is exported, so then I'd be free to animate and render it all in Blender. The need to attach mo-cap to a face rig in Blender doesn't bother me, because that is also something that only needs to be done once, and I love the idea of having all that control over the weight maps when connecting it all up anyway.

The only thing left then, is to add dynamic clothes and physics etc, but again, that can all be done directly on the figure inside Blender, so to me these are all plusses, cause it all gets done in the same program I'm animating and rendering in. Obviously I'll buy that new plugin, I'd have to be stupid not to at that price, but regardless, I still wish Poser would catch up in the animation department.

I suppose in a sense, Shane is right when he says many will bitch, but go back to what they're comfortable with. Trouble is, for me personally, I always feel like a bloody outcast, cause what I'm comfortable with is both Blender and Poser, but neither of them at this moment in time, give me completely what I want, the way I want it. The major missing ingredient from both these packages, for me at least, is a Procedural Animation Generator, which I think is long overdue not only in Poser, but Blender too.

So looking at your pipeline and concerns, I get the feeling we're actually very similar in our wants for Blender and Poser.

@Retrowave Animax ? Animax - Procedural Animation System

It's very cool but not what I mean. I'm talking about something that interactively and procedurally generates repetitive movement such as walk cycles etc. Think of it more along the lines of the motion generation used in iClone, but taken to the next level such as the example shown at this link:

Click here to see the awesomeness of interactive procedural animation generation

So imagine this; Poser 12 arrives, has a realtime EEVEE viewport, animation-friendly default figures, and a procedural animation generator that can do the sort of stuff shown at that link. Can you imagine how productive and fun such an environment would be, seeing your Poser figure rendered in realtime, running in realtime, right there in the EEVEE-Powered Poser viewport as you adjust the parameters interactively and see it reacting, live?

I'm guessing the result would be something like ...

But the system I have in mind is even better than that, MUCH better, because you can select, say, the head bone and adjust the dynamics and damping of it's motion, so that the head shakes naturally depending on the rest of the walk. You could do really weird stuff like selecting the arm bones and reducing the damping so much that they swing like jelly in direct reaction to the walk, ideal for a tentacle monster perhaps. You could select the spine and slacken it off a bit, to make more of a slouch posture for use on an elderly figure, and the whole thing will react accordingly. The important thing to remember here is that because the animation is procedural and is being calculated in realtime, the dynamics form part of the animation itself, and make everything look far more realistic as a result. When figures walk with the system I have in mind here, they walk with a sense of real weight behind them due to the dynamics playing a direct part in the animation.

And of course, once you have your perfect walk cycle dialed in, you can bake it to the new, improved, animation layering and editing timeline, which in turn allows you to generate complete, detailed blocks of animation without breaking a sweat. The more commercially minded will use this system to generate blocks of animation that can be sold on the Renderosity Marketplace for use in Poser. These blocks of animation can be loaded into the layers of Posers new, improved, animation tools!

The cycles continues ... people get happy ... people get productive ... art is made ... movies are made ... profit is made!

Oh got it, that would make some things extremely easy when animating the way you described how it would work. I am moving away from modeling (well..only modeling what I personally need I mean) and going into animation now myself and that system sounds very interesting.

Procedural animation tools for quick generation of body motion must be accompanied by modern nonlinear motion editing tools to further refine the base motion. this is where Iclone prevails over many other programs. however the price gets high when you wish to use your own figures from outside the Iclone natives but worth it IMHO.

Iclones procedural motion https://youtu.be/55kIU2DCk3o

As for talking characters I need to be able generate basic lipsynch for all of my characters diverse human or non human without alot of manual labor just to get them speaking: The many Daz options

https://youtu.be/kNdBNdduydQ

I am an animated sci fi fimmaker& VXF artist not a rigging TD.

However I am also a Daz clothing content developer so the closest I get to "rigging" is the three mouse clicks of the Daz studio auto rigger function when I make my own custom outfits for G1,2,3. I do plan to gain expertise with blenders top notch modeling and sculpting tools for making my custom genesis clothing even better.

Good Idea and sure would be a great Progress! But who will build in that game engine into Poser? the ones who are toying around with it at the moment ? not even capable of giving a Change Log on updates, building updates as full installers. the way it seems at the moment such a improvement will never happen. First of all they have to get things handled in a more Professional way if they want to represent 3D software. If they are not even capable of basics, then for sure they will not be able to build a high end animation engine into Poser.

Hey all, glad you like it, but please go and visit the Poser 12 Wishlist thread as I've just added two posts there regards this system. You'll also find out how the figure would be controlled, it's super-easy and there is no need for a game engine, the system is designed to work directly in the Poser viewport on a Poser scene.

The system I'm describing make the iClone tools look primitive

Azath posted at 10:19PM Sun, 29 December 2019 - #4374937

Good Idea and sure would be a great Progress! But who will build in that game engine into Poser? the ones who are toying around with it at the moment ? not even capable of giving a Change Log on updates, building updates as full installers. the way it seems at the moment such a improvement will never happen. First of all they have to get things handled in a more Professional way if they want to represent 3D software. If they are not even capable of basics, then for sure they will not be able to build a high end animation engine into Poser.

With all due respect to you, you don't know that. Bondware has owned Poser for all of 5 months. They've had to decided what they want to do and how, and they had to assemble a team to develop it. And you're upset because they didn't cross all the t's and missed a few dots over the i's? They also announced that this was not going to be a big feature rich improvement. This was basically a re-branding release.

wolf359 posted at 4:17AM Mon, 30 December 2019 - #4374935

Procedural animation tools for quick generation of body motion must be accompanied by modern nonlinear motion editing tools to further refine the base motion.

Once again I am in 100% agreement. In the request postings I've made regards this stuff, I have always been very careful to include the requirement for the layering and timeline tools to be updated along with it. There is a very predefined prerequisite for the system I'm hoping they implement:

• Update to the layering and animation editing is required to facilitate the Procedural Motion Generator.
• The Procedural Motion Generator itself would be hindered if the default figures were not animation-friendly and realtime.
• The EEVEE viewport is required for the realtime rendering of these features, live, in the Poser viewport.

So it comes as a package, cause one potential would not be fully realised without the other, so they need to work hand-in-hand. They could not afford to be half-assed about it if they did it, that's for sure, otherwise the benefits of having it would be hindered.

Retrowave posted at 7:39AM Mon, 30 December 2019 - #4374959

wolf359 posted at 4:17AM Mon, 30 December 2019 - #4374935

Procedural animation tools for quick generation of body motion must be accompanied by modern nonlinear motion editing tools to further refine the base motion.

Once again I am in 100% agreement. In the request postings I've made regards this stuff, I have always been very careful to include the requirement for the layering and timeline tools to be updated along with it. There is a very predefined prerequisite for the system I'm hoping they implement:

• Update to the layering and animation editing is required to facilitate the Procedural Motion Generator.
• The Procedural Motion Generator itself would be hindered if the default figures were not animation-friendly and realtime.
• The EEVEE viewport is required for the realtime rendering of these features, live, in the Poser viewport.

So it comes as a package, cause one potential would not be fully realised without the other, so they need to work hand-in-hand. They could not afford to be half-assed about it if they did it, that's for sure, otherwise the benefits of having it would be hindered.

To be honest, Pumeco, I wouldn't expect Poser to have ALL of that in Poser 12. Sadly, SM neglected some vital features in improving Poser over the past few versions. Even if Bondware WANTED to make Poser completely up to date, it would probably take over two years to accomplish. Remember, Poser's legacy code is over twenty years old. Moving forward will take some time because they don't want to break anything as they do. I seem to recall, DS breaking stuff all the time as they moved forward.. Of course, they didn't require a massive twenty year rewrite when they did.

And then, there's priorities. Honestly, I don't think animation is one of them, but I do think that it will be improved over time. EEVEE?? I'll settle for fixing and enlarging Raytrace preview.

It's a vicious circle, Clarkie. Animators just don't animate in Poser these days, because the animation side of things has fallen too far behind, and the competition out there giving them what they want. Pretty much every animator that Poser ever had, have long since migrated to iClone, DAZ Studio, or Blender. Their choice of migration being dictated by the tools on offer in those packages, and the level of power the user seeks.

So we have a situation where those who love Poser and want to animate, are thin on the ground on a forum such as this. So things such as animation don't get people rallying behind it, because the very users who would do that, have long since given Poser the big finger as an "animation" tool. This in turn can leave the developer thinking that fixing the animation situation is not necessary. This is a vicious circle, cause until the developer of Poser realises that sometimes you have to put the future of the software before the shiny bells and whistles, the situation will never get fixed, and you'll never see those users again, nor will you see the budding animators new to the scene, choosing Poser as their 3D animation tool.

What I find most frustrating about it is that actually, the animation technology Poser has under the hood, is already very powerful, it is already more than adequate. The problem is the way that technology is presented, it is absolutely sadistic compared to modern implementations.

Regards EEVEE, here's why it's important:

• Encourages PBR materials.
• Renders stills and animation in realtime.
• Goes hand in hand with Cycles (Super-Fly) just as it does in Blender.

I do agree that there is a lot of work to be done, but at least Bondware are completely in control of that situation now, and there are no rules that dictate when Poser12 should arrive. So far, I'd say they're going the right way about it, working on bug-fixes and rebranding. I just hope that in the meantime, they accept the cold hard facts regards the animation situation in Poser, and make Poser12 the milestone release it should be, meaning something that tells the CG industry that when Bondware acquires a 3D product, they mean business! It would be fantastic to see a vibe across the industry, magazine reviews etc, that Bondware have taken Poser and given it the kiss of life is desperately needed.

Personally, other than being in the company of the likes of Wolf and perhaps a few others, I think I'm completely wasting my time banging-on about this stuff here. But it is in Bondware's best interest to play the wise-guy where Poser is concerned, and to be fair I have no reason to doubt them unless they fail to deliver something forward-thinking.

So the way I see it is let them know my concerns, let them know what I want, and at least give them a chance to research for themselves why these things are seriously relevant. If they mess-up, I can already do everything I want in Blender anyway. It takes more time to set up, but at least it can be done, so really my requests are for the benefit of Poser more than myself.

Another important thing to remember is that the system I requested will attract many to Poser just to be able to get their hands on the motion generation tech, for much the same reason that Wolf and many others are attracted to iClone for it.

Eclarke's assessment is correct.

The $$resources$$ required ,for such a complete overhaul of posers, animation tools would be tremendous and likely break all previous content to be viable.

And even if Bondware could afford such a core rewrite. there focus would likely be on better content creation & rigging tools for new vendors as the "fitting room" clearly is not up to the task for creating retail quality clothing content.

The poser character animation ship has sailed.

The Character animators are long..long gone.

Sure there may be a few lingering loyalists hoping for a "miracle" regarding the character animation tools, But they wont be enough to get the current owners to focus on Character animation and frankly it would be unwise for them to do so.

The majority of the poser core user base does not care about procedural walks or lipsync& facial motion capture etc.

Just as the majority of the Daz studio core user base does not care about procedural walks or lipsync& facial motion capture and frankly Daz Studio has far better,modern tools for animating figures at this point

With all of the competition ,in this market, bondware should focus on keeping the current ,core poser user base from further diminishing !!

Poser will never "steal" users from Blender, Iclone or even Daz studio or Adobe fuse etc . Not with any new super sexy white girl ,base figure or with a fancy new walk generator.

I spend alot of time in other online user communites and shane said something extremely wise earlier about how people moan and complain in the various forums and tinker with alternatives ,but never actually switch programs 99% of the time.

Even when the economics are highly favorable (like switching from a paid to a better featured free application)

most people, in this market, will never..ever leave their myopic little comfort bubbles.

Hard to tell whether Wolf saw my previous post before posting that, but either way, not agreeing on that one other than the animation ship has sailed for Poser, which is all the more reason it needs dragging back to shore, kickin' and screamin'

And I doubt it needs a core rewrite in order to implement anything requested. EEVEE would be implemented in the same way Cycles was, and the underlying requirements for the motion technology is already there.

Poser's animation spec already includes Kinematics, Goals, Joint Driven Morphing, Soft Body Dynamics, Rigid Body Dynamics, and the all important Spline Interpolation system. It's the front end that is presented to the animator that is not up to date with modern animation tools, so that's why the antiquated Walk Designer and animation interface need to go, to be replace with a modern Procedural Motion Designer and upgraded Animation Editing tools.

I have no clue why you think such things are a distant dream. The biggest problem has always been getting the developer themselves to recognise where the failure is, so your post only serves to damage any slight chance we might have had in them recognising the situation for what it is ...

We have super-capable, already-existing animation technology that is currently being let down by the crappy workflow and utterly sadistic design of it's animation tools.

Right, well I'm off to watch a movie made with a program that has admirable animation tools and a realtime EEVEE viewport, cheer myself up a bit, cause my effort here feels completely wasted now ...

Click here for Animation Short

I think I know exactly how he feels, I suspect he just tried animating in Poser, so can't say I blame the wooly little fella

The only things I disagree with Wolf on in that last post is his tacking an "e" on the end of my name, and his belief that the Fitting Room was somehow meant to replace traditional modeling for new vendors.

I don't see Poser as the "go-to" tool for animators, but that doesn't mean that it can't be made better than what it is.

Tacking an "e" on the end of your name is nothing compared to what I get, there's this guy on Renderosity I lovingly refer to as "Clarkie", who keeps calling me "pumeco".

That pumeco guy is long dead and buried, he was last seen listening to some retrowave music, but didn't realise at the time that doing so would cause an 80s back-track apocalypse. All of a sudden, roads everywhere started to burn-up and were replaced by neon-illuminated grids, every species of tree the world was replaced by palm trees, and entire mountain ranges were replaced by neon-illuminated silhouettes of mountain ranges.

So pumeco died, but the unusual cause of death meant he was reborn as "Retrowave", you'll even see his avatar turn neon soon enough as a direct result of the transformation. Don't believe me?

Listen to this, the track that caused it, then check the roads outside shortly after, and watch as they transform permanently into neon-illuminated grids!

Just adding my $2e-02, the majority, if not all, HD morphs used by DS are stored in an undocumented, encrypted format (I've written a DSON file format parser in Python for Poser, which, apart from not yet (if ever) translating dual quaternion weight maps directly to triax or converting IRay shaders to FF or SF, can access everything except encrypted HD morph data without recourse to any other software). Without some component of DS, be it the Poser DSON addon, or otherwise, there is no access to that unencrypted HD data. Since there would be no point at all to encryption if the HD morph data were freely portable to other platforms without maintaining some component of DAZ oversight, I do not believe that they would make that data transferable via any export pipeline into an unencrypted format. Hence no HD morphs ever in iClone or LightWave, without a policy change in that regard.

what these software companies need is a nice, big, fat, class action suit regarding their "rentals" (subscriptions) of software where the consumer, after paying for years has nothing if they cannot keep up their subscription. I've spoken to more than 1 attorney who thinks the consumer is more than likely to win that little argument.

Anyway, the point being, that you can squeeze and squeeze and squeeze, and then, like a Phoenix rising up out of the dust, the consumer has finally had enough. Then they realize that, hey, we should have let them have their HD morphs it would've been a lot cheaper. They're only getting away with it because nobody's challenged it yet, it's not like this situation is settled law, it's not, it's just an uncontested policy.

@an0malaus indeed the Daz HD morph system is proprietary Daz IP and only Available to their approved partners (Certain Daz PA's) ,

Nothing controversial there. Tech companies restrict dissemination of their IP all the time

I DONT CARE as Long as My DAZ JCM's are baked into .obj/MDD export to Lightwave/C4D I can fake "HD details" With Normal maps my rendering application. ( see detailed G3 male in C4D below)

@ movida did any of those "attorneys" cite any legal precedence/ tort law to support the notion that renting a service is Illegal?? when the end user has agreed to the terms of the services including the conditions under which the service can be terminated( such as nonpayment)

I am NO attorney but I dont see the functional difference between paying monthly fees to keep your Autodesk Maya software functioning and paying a monthly fees to keep your smart phone data etc functioning.

Even perpetual licenses are not "owned" by the end user and subject to termination under condition specified in the EULA.

Movida is spot-on. Software-rental greed machines like Adobe and Autodesk having you agree to their policy, does NOT remove the requirement for them to abide by the law. They both generate their riches through unfair and unethical business practices.

• The practice of FORCING customers away from a PERPETUAL licence, one they CHOSE to invest in, IS unethical and unfair.
• If a perpetual licence costs $250, then a perpetual licence should be granted, BY LAW, after 10 months of $25 Subscription.
• Software rental should be outlawed to ensure that corporate greed machines like Adobe and Autodesk cannot escape ethical and fair business practice.

The problem with software rental is very deep-rooted and serious. It suggests that it is perfectly acceptable to have a man or woman constantly work in order to pay for a product they will never own. It is the absolute ultimate in slavery of the citizen. It is only right that, after working for an income, any software a person choses to spend that income on, is theirs to keep unless they break the licence agreement. However, the cancer that is software rental, means that THEY expect YOU to work and work and work your whole life, and NEVER own what you worked to pay for!

THE PRACTICE IS UNFAIR, UNETHICAL, BLATANT ABUSE OF THE CUSTOMER AND CITIZEN, AND CAN, AND SHOULD, BE OUTLAWED FOR THOSE VERY REASONS.

I mean, the same can be said of property taxes, which is a much more important aspect of human life than software access. It doesn't matter how many years or decades you've lived in your home, or how many years ago you paid off the mortgage, stop paying your property taxes just one year and see how quick the state comes in and auctions it off and you're on the street. Which just proves you never actually own the home you live in, you're always going to be paying your rent to uncle sam if you intend to continue living there. Which means it doesn't matter if you're growing your own food and getting your water from a well, you're still always going to require some form of income, at least enough to cover that yearly rent. That, to me, is the definition of modern day slavery.

Software rental is nothing new - its been a thing in the business world for several years, long before Adobe or Autodesk started taking advantage of it. And with as profitable as it has been for companies it's not going away any time soon. Everything is moving to rental/subscription, from software to underwear. Just spend an hour reading about it and how well its been received by the masses over the last 10 years. Most people welcome it. You can't legislate what a company does with their IP. Its their property. You can either choose to use their property within the terms of their agreement, or don't.

Now I'm imagining rentable underwear O_o

Shane, ask yourself what it would be like if all of a sudden, cars, houses, your computer, the shower on your wall, the bicycle in your garage, the washing machine, everything was rented with no option to buy it outright?

Thing is, you have the freedom to choose what you do and do not see as a being viable for rental. But what happens when you take that choice away? You have perpetual slavery, because it would not matter how long you work, how hard you work, you can do so your entire life and you would still be left with nothing, nothing whatsoever!

That is the problem, they have removed the choice, and are therefore forcing the customer into perpetual slavery if they wish to continue getting updates for the perpetual product they originally invested time and money in learning.

It is no different than someone visiting your house and saying, right Shane, that truck of yours, you might have paid for it, but we've decided to make you rent it from us if you plan to be able to keep it running. Oh, and by the way, if you're not happy with what we just offered, go ahead and rent a new truck instead, only that's all you will ever be able to do, rent it, we don't care how hard you work, we're NOT giving you the option to pay us money so that you can ever own it, NEVER. We trust you're ok with our new arrangement, Shane, so if you'd be so kind, please sign the licensing agreement right there on the dotted line, and I'll allow you to start renting the truck that you already paid for.

Far-fetched as it sounds, it is no different to software rental, because in effect you are condoning the removal of choice, and forced perpetual enslavement through software rental. In a court, neither Adobe or Autodesk would have a valid argument for why, after covering the cost of a perpetual licence, a subscriber should not be granted that perpetual licence. The reason they would not have a valid argument, is simply because ... there isn't one.

Anyway, these debates can go on and on, so I'm dropping discussion of it, but I really do wish you would see that the problem is the complete removal of choice, with the ONLY choice left being unethical, perpetual slavery. It is the perfect dream-society those corporate snakes would have the entire world living under if they have their way.

The system is pure cancer, and like all cancers, needs to be stamped out of existence permanently.

wolf359 posted at 5:49AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375049

I DONT CARE as Long as My DAZ JCM's are baked into .obj/MDD export to Lightwave/C4D I can fake "HD details" With Normal maps my rendering application. ( see detailed G3 male in C4D below)

@ movida did any of those "attorneys" cite any legal precedence/ tort law to support the notion that renting a service is Illegal?? when the end user has agreed to the terms of the services including the conditions under which the service can be terminated( such as nonpayment)

I am NO attorney but I dont see the functional difference between paying monthly fees to keep your Autodesk Maya software functioning and paying a monthly fees to keep your smart phone data etc functioning.

Even perpetual licenses are not "owned" by the end user and subject to termination under condition specified in the EULA.

So, because YOU don't care it is not a real issue.

Why attorney's in quotes? A little snide don't you think?

First the internet should be classified as a utility, that alone would end a lot of corporate abuse of the consumer online, particularly the destruction of net neutrality another little scam perpetrated by the white trash currently in power in washington dc. Secondly, class action suits are brought in order to establish the boundaries/rules/acceptable behavior of, usually, a corporate bloodsucker. The rules should be established whether or not the fan boy techies and their hired guns approve.

AmbientShade posted at 6:49AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375052

Software rental is nothing new - its been a thing in the business world for several years, long before Adobe or Autodesk started taking advantage of it. And with as profitable as it has been for companies it's not going away any time soon. Everything is moving to rental/subscription, from software to underwear. Just spend an hour reading about it and how well its been received by the masses over the last 10 years. Most people welcome it. You can't legislate what a company does with their IP. Its their property. You can either choose to use their property within the terms of their agreement, or don't.

In what universe is rental well received by the masses? The masses? That must be why permanent licenses are an advertising/sales benefit.

movida posted at 8:31AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375059

In what universe is rental well received by the masses? The masses? That must be why permanent licenses are an advertising/sales benefit.

https://www.business.com/articles/pricing-license-vs-subscription/

"The popularity of subscription services

Ten years ago, the idea that we would forgo purchasing something in favor of a subscription was an early-stage concept, yet to achieve mass consumer adoption.

Subscription services, such as Netflix and Spotify, were mainly popular with younger audiences, attracting a student and young professional, urban demographic with a keen interest in trying out new apps and technology. Your classic early adopters.

Now the U.S. Census Bureau's American Community Survey shows that subscription services are attracting older, more mature demographics with a much wider geographic spread, far beyond major metropolitan areas. Subscription services have gone mainstream. The Harvard Business Review confirms that "30% are between 35 and 54, and 22% are age 55 or older, which is good news for consumer-focused app developers and startups.

Amazon is another sign of the health of the subscription economy. Ten years ago, Amazon was mainly known for being a great website to buy cheap books, DVDs, and CDs from. Now, according to a recent Consumer Intelligence Research Partners report, 46 percent of U.S. households have an Amazon Prime account. This means that around 20 percent of the U.S. adult population has access to a Prime account. Not only does this guarantee a two-day delivery, but subscribers can get a wide selection of TV shows, movies, and music on demand, on any device.

Even cars are moving towards a subscription model. Uber and rival companies, in some cities, have overtaken traditional taxi use. Cadillac and Porsche both launched subscription car offerings in New York and Atlanta, Georgia, in 2017, with prices starting at $1,500 per month. Subscribers have the ability to control everything through apps and can swap cars multiple times every month.

With these trends establishing subscriptions as the way forward for consumers, it should be no surprise that businesses are switching to cloud-based subscription software options over traditional license options."

If a perpetual licence costs $250, then a perpetual licence should be granted, BY LAW, after 10 months of $25 Subscription.

I think it's a little more complicated than that.

For one thing, the "rental" cost is typically much cheaper than that. Photoshop used to cost $700 for a perpetual license. It's $9.99 a month now. You'd have to rent it for almost six years to pay the full price. (And there's ways to get it for even cheaper. Free months are often included with other items, and they sometimes have sales at Amazon, etc.)

Plus, you get a constantly updated version of Photoshop (if you want - you can use older versions instead if you prefer). And you can rent it only when you need it. (I don't do this with Photoshop, but I have done it with Premiere. Needed it for a project, rented it for a month, cancelled.)

I hated the idea of a subscription at first, but now that I've tried it, I love it. There is no way I would update Photoshop every year under the old system. Or even every six years.

I used to think I didn't need the latest and greatest version, but now that I have it, I'm using the new features. Like "content aware fill." That's not a super new feature, but the latest update really made it work a lot better. It's saving me a ton of time.

If they did want to make Photoshop or other continuously updated software "rent to own," I think people who want to buy out should pay a percentage, depending on how long they've rented, since they're getting the latest version, which they would not have if they bought a perpetual license six years ago. Or, they could not pay anything extra and get a license for an older version instead (assuming they've rented for at least six years).

The whole thing is controlled by customers, not the Industries! The ones who do not like to rent, or have a call home controlled software will not get it. Best way to fight it is not to support it in any way. Small artists have to look at there budget, if you have allot of rental software then the price will rise up to the sky, with ease you will have a monthly bill over 500$ just for a few applications including your Internet access and cell phone. People with average income will no longer be able to afford the bills. If you use the applications in a professional way, you might be able to cover the costs. Hobbyists will be left out, primary you need the income to cover the basic life costs. People with irregular income will choose applications without rent, they have no other choice.

movida posted at 8:46AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375059

In what universe is rental well received by the masses? The masses? That must be why permanent licenses are an advertising/sales benefit.

Here's another article you might be interested in that digs a bit deeper into the future of a subscription based economy, bit too long to quote:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/5-trends-driving-the-end-of-ownership-and-the-growth-of-the-subscription-economy/

In short, people are done with ownership and are moving to rentership. It's not the businesses that are forcing it on them, the consumers are demanding it.

AmbientShade posted at 8:00AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375065

movida posted at 8:46AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375059

In what universe is rental well received by the masses? The masses? That must be why permanent licenses are an advertising/sales benefit.

Here's another article you might be interested in that digs a bit deeper into the future of a subscription based economy, bit too long to quote:

https://www.zdnet.com/article/5-trends-driving-the-end-of-ownership-and-the-growth-of-the-subscription-economy/

In short, people are done with ownership and are moving to rentership. It's not the businesses that are forcing it on them, the consumers are demanding it.

With all due respect, the rental model is being touted and promoted by those who benefit financially from it - the software companies, who then, as a matter of course, kick segments of their user base to the curb. I'm going to stop right there :)

To be fair it seems mostly the younger generations that are taking the subscription/rental route, and that's who most of the marketing is aimed at today. Those of us in our 40s and up are less inclined because we see the long-term negatives associated with a monthly bill for things we're used to just paying for once and done with. But we are less and less the priority to these companies as we get older (we're also more likely to have had an actual personal finances class or three back in school so we keep a closer eye on our spending habits).

In other words: The young people are stupid Now GET OFF MY LAWN!

@Movida First under Western tort law, class action lawsuits are to provide compensation to a legally defined "class" of otherwise disparate groups of victims who can ALL prove they have been materially harmed by the direct actions or even legally negligent inactions of the allged defendant/s

Have fun proving( in a real court of law ) that you ,and those like you ,are being materially harmed by your inability to afford or your emotional, philosophical opposition the monthly cost of Autodesk Maya or Adobe photoshop.

And I have observed that the only people banging on on about the Closed nature of the Daz HD morphs are the people who lack the skills to become a Daz PA (and gain access),

Or people who do not even use the Daz Studio software but somehow believe Access to its proprietary features are some sort of fundamental "civil right".

You say the internet acesss "should be a public utility".

I share that opinion and fully expect it soon will be as matter of government efficiency.

The U.S. Government already pays for a free Android Smart phone with 3 GIGs of monthly data to anyone who qualifies for an EBT ( food stamp card) and it even has free app to check your card balance on the phone. And there are free pubic wi-fi towers all over New York city

PSE&G,here in New York, is a true public utility and the loss of electric power could literally threated human lives.

Yet PSE&G has the legal right deactivate my service if I dont pay my monthly subscription.

Shane is quite right. the masses have blythely accepted all manners of monthly subs for both life critical & disposable entertainment services: ,streaming video& music services, netflix etc, etc.

Where are the big class action lawsuits on behalf of the oppressed underclass who were denied watching HBO's Game of thrones", CBS's "Startrek Discovery" ,Disney's "the Mandalorian" or Amazons "The Expanse season4" ??

wolf359 posted at 8:39AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375071

@Movida First under Western tort law, class action lawsuits are to provide compensation to a legally defined "class" of otherwise disparate groups of victims who can ALL prove they have been materially harmed by the direct actions or even legally negligent inactions of the allged defendant/s

Have fun proving( in a real court of law ) that you ,and those like you ,are being materially harmed by your inability to afford or your emotional, philosophical opposition the monthly cost of Autodesk Maya or Adobe photoshop.

Nobody was given a choice. The initiation of subscription models enables forcing users to pay for future improvements they might neither want nor need. Way to go free enterprise.

And I have observed that the only people banging on on about the Closed nature of the Daz HD morphs are the people who lack the skills to become a Daz PA (and gain access),

Or people who do not even use the Daz Studio software but somehow believe Access to its proprietary features are some sort of fundamental "civil right".

You can just accuse me of not being skilled, you don't have to beat around the bush about it. Speak right up. I don't care what you think and the day is young. My position is that once these software companies secure a monthly income flow they proceed to kick segments of their user base to the curb (a revealing development don't you think? ) and proceed to put the screws to those left, who have NO CHOICE but to comply whether or not they need the touted upgrades. Also, the phone homes gather information on the user...what exactly are they gathering and what are they doing with it? I don't intend to continue on with this because you are always right...no matter what and your ad hominums are rather tiring.

Where are the big class action lawsuits on behalf of the oppressed underclass who were denied watching HBO's Game of thrones", CBS's "Startrek Discovery" ,Disney's "the Mandalorian" or Amazons "The Expanse season4"

Apples and oranges.

There's definitely a trend of younger people being more inclined to accept this abuse, that's for sure!

Those people never lived in the 80s, so have no idea about the importance of physical worth and permanent ownership. They're too young to understand what a privacy-respecting life with a bustling street-life economy looks like. All they know is the bull they grow up with, being spoon-fed to them by the tech giants through their phones etc.

The citizens of the world have allowed the abuse to get far too out of hand, and they really should wake-up because fitting of the inevitable government-enforced dog-tag is next (a practice already accepted by sheep in China).

The citizen must become enraged and react to the combined effort that is going on between the tech giants and governments, or they will face the consequences of supporting what is going on, as demonstrated HERE by billions of government-owned Chinese.

Luckily I'm a Brit and would never stand for this abuse, not sure about Americans though if Shane's position is representative:

• Attention.
• Did you work for free today for the benefit of a state-member greed-machine?
• If we discover through our tracking that you have not, we will send you to jail.

FFS, please watch the attached video, at least before the mandatory government-enforced dog-tag gets fitted

Subscriptions, rental software, whatever you want to call it are simply a further development of the trend for people demand to have something now rather than wait until they can afford it. At one stage if someone wanted for example new furniture they wait until they had saved enough to buy it. Then hire-purchase agreements came along, followed by credit cards and the whole explosion of consumer credit. Therefor if you can pay 10dollars and have something now rather than wait until you can afford 700dollars, that is what people will do. This has not been lead by business, business has just pandered to the desires of consumers.

And the biggest laugh about these arguments, is that elsewhere in other threads etc people are arguing that these applications are all about to be wiped out by open source software. How can people argue they are being put into slavery when there are free alternatives.

And when you look at the reality of slavery, both in the past and modern day slavery I think it is totally absurd and deplorable to use that term in the context that you can't buy the type of licence you want for certain software. Please get reel.

Getting a software is voluntary. Especially graphic software used by hobbyists. Indeed, let's please not compare this to actual slavery or the forced organ removals of a communist regime. I come here to have fun, not to relive certain memories. Thank you.

I think it's totally absurd and deplorable to rent software, for the valid reason pointed out, and I will say it again in case you conveniently missed it on purpose ...

PUT BEFORE A COURT, NEITHER ADOBE NOR AUTODESK WOULD HAVE A VALID REASON FOR WHY, AFTER A CONSUMER HAS COVERED THE COST OF A PERPETUAL LICENCE, THEY SHOULD NOT BE GRANTED ONE.

If I were a judge, I would take the price they used to charge for a perpetual licence before the "subscription" system was introduced. I would then order that every consumer that has subscribed to that product, be granted, by law, a perpetual licence to that product, once their subscription has covered the cost of that perpetual licence.

Adobe and Autodesk would be free cry their heads off, because whether they like it or not, once the consumer covers the cost of a perpetual licence, they are entitled to that perpetual licence. The offering of a perpetual licence was no problem before the introduction of the "subscription" system, so they should have no problem supplying one under that system once the cost of a perpetual licence has been covered.

People can bitch, whine, be as dumb or sarcastic as they like, but one thing they cannot do, is fault what I just pointed out in bold.

Retrowave posted at 12:11PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375094

I think it's totally absurd and deplorable to rent software, for the valid reason pointed out, and I will say it again in case you conveniently missed it on purpose ...

PUT BEFORE A COURT, NEITHER ADOBE NOR AUTODESK WOULD HAVE A VALID REASON FOR WHY, AFTER A CONSUMER HAS COVERED THE COST OF A PERPETUAL LICENCE, THEY SHOULD NOT BE GRANTED ONE.

If I were a judge, I would take the price they used to charge for a perpetual licence before the "subscription" system was introduced. I would then order that every consumer that has subscribed to that product, be granted, by law, a perpetual licence to that product, once their subscription has covered the cost of that perpetual licence.

Adobe and Autodesk would be free cry their heads off, because whether they like it or not, once the consumer covers the cost of a perpetual licence, they are entitled to that perpetual licence. The offering of a perpetual licence was no problem before the introduction of the "subscription" system, so they should have no problem supplying one under that system once the cost of a perpetual licence has been covered.

You'd be immediately overruled in this country (US) on appeal. Look, like it or not, this is NOT a socialist country, which, btw, does not mean what people seem to think it means. This is an internal business matter. If Bondware wants to go subscription, that's their choice and decision. Mine, at the moment, unless there's something extremely beneficial to me, either financially or legally, is not to use their software.

As you've argued elsewhere, there are too many free and open sourced alternatives for me to get stuck on that treadmill. And almost all of them work as good as, or better than this one.

Retrowave, you are actually completely right, humans seem to be blinded and totally controlled, a evolutionary phenomenon. it is as if they gotten a chip mounted or that they send radio waves out to influence human thinking behavior. They will say " It's good for you " and all will scream " It's good for us " . Virtual total control. few are not affected but most are. Most people even need an app to see if the sun is shining outside. Modern Zombies ... "John Carpenter's They Live" that would be the soft version of our evolution.

PUT BEFORE A COURT, NEITHER ADOBE NOR AUTODESK WOULD HAVE A VALID REASON FOR WHY, AFTER A CONSUMER HAS COVERED THE COST OF A PERPETUAL LICENCE, THEY SHOULD NOT BE GRANTED ONE.

Sure they would. For one thing, we agreed to the terms when we subscribed. For another, even if I subscribed for six years and paid for the full cost of Photoshop...it was the price for Photoshop 8 years ago. They could reasonably argue that Photoshop 2020 is more valuable than Photoshop was back when it was Photoshop CS, and I have not paid for that.

Rhia474 posted at 11:27AM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375093

Getting a software is voluntary. Especially graphic software used by hobbyists. Indeed, let's please not compare this to actual slavery or the forced organ removals of a communist regime. I come here to have fun, not to relive certain memories. Thank you.

Well said!!

My Personal position is , if Poser needs constant Internet access, the concerned versions will not be installed, unless there is a solution to avoid it ! DS is in this case the better choice. If there are plans to make a subscription version in the near future, they would have to pay me to use it , Ds, blender or iClone the far better choice with better chance to make a little income. Poser would not even come into consideration, it would not get allot of positive mouth to mouth recommendations in 3D communities.

@Clarkie - Well exactly, but actually I did not bring up the discussion about subscriptions, my concern was needing a constant or repetitive internet connection, that's all. And yes, we certainly agree regards the alternatives, because the alternatives are as good as, and often better than, the commercial options these days. Just one look at that close-up of the sheep's eyelids and fur in Cosmos Laundromat should tell anyone that Blender has already well and truly arrived - the rendering, modelling, lighting and animation in that thing is absolutely stunning and far ahead of anything I've seen from "Pixar".

@Azath - Cheers mate, and thanks for the support, although you might find that agreeing with me can often be likened to playing the devils advocate in the eyes of others. Ironic that you, the person with the least-human avatar, is likely the most human in their views when they agree with me. And I do agree, it's like everyone already has the chip fitted, and by the way, those poor peeps in China already do have the chip fitted - no kidding.

@Randy - Like I said, them using the licence agreement as an excuse will not help them in a hearing that is called for reasons of unfair and unethical business practice, and it is under those terms they should have their abusive, greedy asses dragged to court.

@Wolf - Oh dear

@ Retrowave also consider that the "cost of a perpetual license" is arbitrary not something regulated by the government. there are no price controls in a capitalists economy.

In fact a "perpetual license" is a fiat concept that can simply be declared no longer in existance by the owner of the IP. I suggest people start actually reading EULA'S they are quite informative.

And on the "choice" matter ,you are given the choice to use other software... that is the reality of the situation.

Again Wolf, you cannot argue against what I wrote in bold, with any conviction whatsoever!

It*s irrelevant how many hurdles or irrelevant thinking gets in the way of it, because at the end of the day, there are laws against unfair and unethical business practice, and where a new one is declared, laws are put in place to deal with it. What I wrote in bold is valid, put before a court their greedy asses would be toast for the very reason they were dragged before a court in the first place ...

UNFAIR AND UNETHICAL BUSINESS PRACTICE

Like I said, them using the licence agreement as an excuse will not help them in a hearing that is called for reasons of unfair and unethical business practice, and it is under those terms they should have their abusive, greedy asses dragged to court.

I don't know what country you live in, but in the U.S., your argument would be laughed out of court.

I mean, by your reasoning, if I rent a house for 20 years and end up paying as much as the owner paid for it, it's now my house. Regardless of its current value, or whether he wants to sell. Doesn't work that way.

I honestly cannot even answer that post because I have no idea how what you wrote even relates to what I wrote in bold.

Anyway, I'm really dropping out of that specific debate now, cause to be honest, it really makes my blood boil and I don't want to be saying stuff that will get me told off. I told Jenn I'd be a good boy, and I have been that, but people have different tolerances and I don't want to be deemed stepping out of line.

wolf359 posted at 2:08PM Tue, 31 December 2019 - #4375107

@ Retrowave also consider that the "cost of a perpetual license" is arbitrary not something regulated by the government. there are no price controls in a capitalists economy.

Sure there are. Prices are controlled by market forces.

the economic factors affecting the price of, demand for, and availability of a commodity.