Little Dragon: Yes, It will be upgradeable through a special promotion in the magazine. This is a seperate promotion from the discussion here. Tori

"CL does not think this is whining. CL is hearing you. It appears the main issue in debate is the word "amnesty". CL is reading the posts and is listening." CL needs to be answering, as well. Your customer base is waiting. (How hard is it to say sorry? To say, gosh, you're right, we didn't mean to imply that we're giving thieves a break, and offend people. Honestly. Show a little backbone.)

(How hard is it to say sorry? Sorry for what? I suggest you read your licenses agreement once again. I think CL deserves an apology for all the insults the company has recieved within the last 96 hours. Quiet down and keep posering.

"Sorry for what?" How many times do I have to say it? For anyone with sense, who was offended by a company who actively tries to stop piracy, to suddenly phrase what should have been a simple sale as an amnesty. (It means forgiveness of a criminal act.) Here it is in plain talk: CL is effectively offering a cheap payoff for anyone who has a stolen copy, in the hopes that they won't do it anymore. This offensive to those who have supported them against piracy. If I didn't care about the company, and the people here, I wouldn't keep trying to clarify this ad nauseum. I'm going to ignore your saying to quiet down- rude I can live with. It just shows you in a bad light.

Sorry for what? I suggest you read your licenses agreement once again.<<< You mean the one CL has chosen to ignore by throwing it out the window for the benefit of the pirates? That license agreement? IMHO, CL has made that agreement null and void by sanctioning one of the very things it was meant to stop. Afterall, an agreement is an agreement between TWO parties. To me, it is now a worthless piece of paper. >>>I think CL deserves an apology for all the insults the company has recieved within the last 96 hours.<<< A cold day... >>>Quiet down and keep posering.<<< Well, like I stated in an earlier post, I really don't give a d**n anymore. Truly, they can GIVE it away to pirates for all I care now. And pirates can steal it until the heavens rain blood. Because I really don't care anymore. I responded to your arrogant demand to "quiet down" only because I wished to state my view of the licensing agreement you brought up and because no one, and I mean no one, tells me to "quiet down." Not unless they wish to don appropriate weaponry. Game on. casamerica

The Poser community is a strong one with strong opinions and though I'm fairly new to it (got Poser about 2-3 months ago), from what I've read in these forums, it sounds like Curious Labs are ones that take great lengths to further the community. In fact, they wanted to honor that community's trust by spending millions to combat piracy, even despite abandoning anti-piracy methods at the community's behalf. So now, all of the sudden, they would turn on the very community that they need just because they want to screw everyone out of $70? Come on.

Don't you see? They are caught between a rock and a hard place. Now I am certainly not for piracy and I bought my copy for the full retail price of $219 (and just bought Pro Pack), but I got to think that someone at the company finally realized that it's not cost effective to prosecute Poser theft on a grand scale. Web sites that put up Poser aren't rich, nor do they make money, and so even though what they are doing is wrong, prosecuting them has no real benefit to the company. Sure, the guy goes to jail and CL is out the court costs. Taking down single users is hardly effective as it would cost more than $219 to do so.

The point here is that they had 3 choices as a company from what I can see from their reply:

1> They could keep doing business the way they are until their operating losses finish what's left of their assets and there is no more Poser or no more CL.

2> They can put it on sale to make the community happy about their previous purchases (which still wouldn't make most happy because they could have got it $90 cheaper now) and risk getting sued by every distributor until they were sucked dry in court.

3> Or they can try to raise money to use to further along their business and hopefully Poser 5. I'll admit the wording is unfortunate, but obviously necessary to avoid getting sued. In such a case, they can't just make one public comment that has the wording required and then under the table tell people "Oh it's really not that, it's this..." First time one of their distributors hears that, they are back to 2.

This is a legal game they are finding it necessary to play in order to survive. To me, they've made every effort they could to try to get people to read between the lines without saying it, even going as far as to offer a "coupon" serial number, but everyone is too quick to jump down their throats.

So the question is, do you want CL to survive or do you want to lose them and maybe their product over poor but forced wording? This PR nightmare will fade away, but better that than CL...

No, I don't work for CL, just an artist and a member of the Poser community like everyone else.

First of all, I did not say quiet down to insult anybody. I have RESPECT for EVERYONE on this EVERYONE. EVERYONE. It was not meant to be an arrogant comment. I am not better than anybody here or anywhere. What I meant is that people should try and move on. CuriosLabs is under fire for trying to catter to a broader customer base ( perhaps ignorantly WORDED ) The company is struggling to move the product forward and I think they deserve support, critism, compliments, anger, hate, love but not full blown vendeta as seen in this forum. Some folks here would be happy to be the one to light that fuse. Temper anger with understanding. All will be well. Secondly, I DO NOT support PIRACY. I am not rich. I could not afford Poser 4, but I could afford 15 bucks to purchase a Computer Arts Magazine that had Poser 3 for free. Since then, I have been posting in this forum on how to go about upgrading my version. Upgrading to version 4 costs $99, but CuriousLabs wouldn't honor my version for upgrading. I've been saving up for version 4, ........then this. Why wouldn't anybody in my shoes support CuriousLabs for bailing them out of a frustrating situation? Why would I be posting in this forum and bothering CuriousLabs with my upgrade requests if I support piracy? Poser Is out there for a dime a pop. I don't need that. I need the real stuff. It HAS to be legit. Nobody is saying anything about folks like me. We have all been bundled in the piracy bandwagon. This is my gripe. This is my stance. Anyway, that said. Once again "quite down" was not an insult. ( wrongly worded I suppose ) D**n maybe I caught the CuriousLabs bug :-). All will be well folks. Put this behind you and keep moving. Keep rendering. Keep posering. Be happy. Curious Labs will pick up the pieces. Believe me. ( PS: I do not work for CuriousLabs and do not intend to. Just another struggling poserer around the corner ) >>>and I mean no one, tells me to "quiet down." Not unless they wish to don appropriate weaponry. Game on. Oh..and also, Anybody that wishes to brandish a weapon should feel free to do so. I hope they've got a bigger one though :-) !!!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=485339

Hi, You can keep my $70, (even though I paid $300 for mine, and from CL too, not MC :) The threads on the other hand, they're priceless! I'd love to stay, but I've been at work without sleep for 2 weekends on the trot and I don't feel like making it a third... :) later jb

ImagineThat, >>>Its to bad some of the people here took it so personal and emotional instead of looking at it objectivly from CL's stand point. So you think Creative is supporting piracy? How so?<<< Personal? Not at all. Emotional? Perhaps. Objectively? A simple reality, they openly included pirates in their offer. Objectively speaking, that is ineffective and stupid. >>>They are dropping the price no matter what, for everyone.<<< As most of us on this side of the issue have stated, we could care less what price they dropped it to for legitimate users, for legitimate buyers. But when you openly embrace the criminal element, then we part company. Why is that so hard to comprehend? >>>Will it stop piracy? Hell no! Will it change anything? Hell no! Will tons of pirates say "gee I've been a bad boy and need to amend my evil ways"? Hell no! But maybe a couple of the smarter ones will realize how nice it is to have a "real" copy of poser.<<< The smarter ones already know they dont need a real copy. >>>One that includes a manual. One that includes tech support.<<< A manual? Many of the pirated versions are archived with the PDF version of the manual. Or you can find the PDF version available separately. Or, how about this? Download the manual from the CL website! Yep, there it is in all its PDF glory. I have never used CL tech support. I have never failed to find the help I need right here on Renderosity. And the pirates know that, too. Why? Because a number of them visit and post here often and regularly. >>>One that will provide a cheaper upgrade on a new version when it comes out instead of trying to pirate that one.<<< You just do not understand the criminal, pirate mind at all, do you? >>>I don't see how this is hurting anyone. Some of you who state you have supported CL against piracy, how have you done that financially? You bought Poser cause you wanted to use it, not for CL's sake.<<< Actually, I bought TWO copies. One for me and one for my son. And by BUYING them instead of pirating them I DID support CL against piracy. Again, a simple reality. But your attitude is the same attitude that I have detected from a few of the CL folks here WE, the honest, paying customers simply are not doing enough. Were just complainers. We fork over several hundred dollars and actually think that gives us a right to actually say anything about anything the company might do. Silly us. >>>Sure its great to turn someone in that talks about it on the forums but that doesn't cost you anything. It costs CL lost revenue every time one of their programs gets ripped off. Why not try and recover that. Its fine to stand on your soapbox with your all-might morals and shake your fist but how is any of this coming out of your pocket?<<< My morals are based on the premise that you do not appease criminals. I am sorry that reality differs with your morals and CLs. You want to recover losses from piracy? Bust them. Prosecute them. Humiliate them. Destroy them. >>>You really want to support CL's against piracy, donate some more money to them to help pay for better anti-piracy technology.<<< There is not a piece of anti-piracy technology out there that I know of that has not been defeated. Microsofts XP technology was supposed to be unbreakable. Cracked versions were all over the net before the official copies were even sold. >>>The gripe from legitimate customers and also pirates since the beginning of computers is that software is too expensive. So a company lowers it so everyone, the good and bad, can afford it and gets skewered in the forums.<<< Because that philosophy is and has been proven to be false. My god, these bandits crack programs that cost less than $15! It isnt a matter of being able to afford it or not! >>>Why not, it doesn't really affect your life, it just feels good to get upset and spout off about it.<<< Okay, since you seem to want to make assumptions, let me inform you of another reality. Every time a company capitulates to the criminals ALL of us lose. I lose, you lose, my clients lose. Oh, by the way, MY clients hire people like me to fight crackers, hackers and pirates. THAT is how it affects my life. And how good does it make you feel to spout off about those of us who have been fighting these criminals for years!? Does it make you feel big? Good, Im happy for ya. >>>How is this costing you anything? The program is going to drop in price anyway. This is not going to make piracy any bigger than it is. Why would it?<<< No, it will not make piracy any bigger. And it sure as heck isnt going to make it any smaller. The bottom line is something no one seems to want to even think about principle. The principle of capitulating, of making a deal with criminals who are, at this very moment, laughing behind your back. Check the underground. >>>Why not try and recover some lost revenue by these people?<<< Wont happen. >>>In America we try to reform criminals all the time. Why is this any different?<<< When you can show me you have ANY understanding of the cracker or pirate mind, we will revisit this subject. Right now, I cannot, for moral reasons, debate an unarmed opponent. >>>You want to stop piracy, get off your butt and join a law enforcement agency and go fight crime instead of talking about it.<<< Listen, Mister (My apologies if you are not a male), a number of us who have been speaking on this DO fight piracy and DO fight crime. Many do it full-time. I am now only part-time. Sorry, health reasons have forced me to cut back my activities. I apologize if this somehow disqualifies me from doing MY part. Now, get off your ass and follow your own advice. Since we're wrong, show us how it should be done. >>>Im sure this is just going to irritate those that already are but try and look at it from a business stand point and not an emotional one. Think of CL and how they would like to make some money so they can continue to make future programs.<<< I AM looking at it from a business standpoint and have done so from the very beginning. And from the business standpoint it was an incredibly stupid move from both a principle and a PR end. You really want to lower piracy? Then quit pussy-footing around! Go after the criminals. Bust them. Prosecute them. Humiliate them. Destroy them. One by one. It means going after webhosts, website operators, ptp operators, ISPs, etc. And it means publicizing your fight and using the media to its full potential. Will that rid the world of this infestation? No. Hell, if theyre in China, India or Israel you can forget it. But as more and more stories of pirates getting busted, being prosecuted, losing their jobs, losing their businesses and losing what property they have for restitution payments start rolling around you will get more who back off than you would if you kiss their ass. Cant afford to hire the necessary bounty hunters or investigative people? Form a coalition with other small software companies and pool your resources and hire a firm together. It is done every day. Hell, youve got SHAREWARE companies forming anti-piracy coalitions! If they can do it, surely CL can ally itself with other similarly sized companies. The question is Do you really want to fight? Or simply pretend? Okay, folks, you win. I promise that this is the last post I will make in this thread. All I seem to be doing is repeating the same thing over and over again. The only thing that changes is the person twisting this side of the argument. CL has made its decision. It is done. I wash my hands of it. Anyway, Im still trying to settle the zip or fasten dilemma. Take care and be well. casamerica

wow - just think what could have been created if all the energy that's been spent on this thread in neurotic posturing had been spent posing instead!

"wow - just think what could have been created if all the energy that's been spent on this thread in neurotic posturing had been spent posing instead!" Actually, i think the energy was more usefully spent discussing issues than posing virtual people... don't you?

Not to beat a dead (hopefully dead) horse here, but people seem to be missing the point here. Poser 4 has been out on the market for what? 2 years? Longer maybe? (I honestly can't recall) I can't believe that all of you are using a promotion as an excuse to bitch and gripe about this. Time goes on, prices drop. Companies hold special promotions to generate more sales. They didn't HAVE to use the amnesty thing to reel people in, they could have just simply dropped the price to $129... would all of you be bitching about it so much? Who knows... I'm sure some of you would have, though not as much. The issue here is that it appears most of you feel snuffed by this, but believe me, the mention of amnesty is likely intended as just a promotional gimmick. Everyone needs a gimmick to sell a product, don't they? How many of you sell products either at DAZ, here in the Marketplace, or at 3DCommune? You use gimmicks to sell products, don't you? THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT CL IS DOING!!! Admittedly, it seems their plan backfired just a bit, however, if you can manage to rope in a few people who were using illegal copies, and get them to pay some cash, as well as offer the discounted price and hopefully sell a lot more copies, then what's the problem? Decreased prices lke this usually mean that the next version is on it's way or already released. Matter of fact, ProPack really is the next viable upgrade to Poser 4.... those of us who are using it's advanced features know full well how much of an upgrade it is, and how easy it makes things. So, when you think about it, Poser 4 is ALREADY the obselete version. I see no problem whatsoever with them offering an older product for less than half it's original price... it's just how things work. Hell, look at Hardware prices. Ron 'DraX' DeFreitas