I say: stick with Posette and Dork and you can't go wrong.

Ron, I'd read them earlier (if you had paid attention). That is only part of why your "translations" are frivolous at best and misleading at worst. Remember that I answered you that I did not buy The Tailor or any clothing spawned with its help. I am suspicious of anything which comes too cheaply and that affects the work of others. I also stated in the past couple of weeks that I had purchased PhilC's excellent CD on making clothes from scratch. I don't need to steal mesh, or even borrow it slightly... and I certainly read all appertaining documents before investing time in a project. I don't enjoy yelping like a martyr so won't deliberately set up that situation, either. As for the post that you (and almost everyone else in this discussion) overlooked... if you can't trip over a fact in the middle of a mostly empty parking lot, I'm not going to tell you the slot number. Carolly

Ajax, 1) You're probably right. I won't claim the legal knowledge to say if CL can ultimately stomp this debate into the ground or not. 2) That argument means that you can not make a t-shirt with an original mesh, then modify it to fit Mike 2 as Daz already has a t-shirt that fits Mike 2. You've just created a product that interferes with the sales of a Daz product. Unless your product is VERY unique, Daz can claim interference and deny you permission to make any clothing models that work with Vicki/Mike/whatever, and even then, they can claim that they have a similar product in the works and deny permission. (Good old, Microsoft vaporware.) 3) What you pointed out is correct. If you use a morph from Mike 2 to make a character, you can not redistribute it. You can make MOR file to have Mike 2's morphs go to the correct settings. No issues with that. I've understood it since day 2 or 3. (I admit, it took a bit for me to understand what a MOR file was. I'm not always the brightest crayon in the box.) The problem is, Daz is stating that if you create morphs that will make clothing fit the Vicki/Mike 2 models, you are potentially in violation of their EULA because another model may be able to wear the clothing and have it appear as though they have those Vicki/Mike 2 morphs. It doesn't matter if you create those morphs for a Daz product or a 3rd party product. You can not redistribute the morphs that you create, no matter what mesh those morphs work on, because those morphs can give a Vicki/Mike 2 appearance to a non-Vicki/Mike 2 mesh. I'm not saying that this is an intentional Daz conspiracy to wipe out all free and 3rd party vendor stuff for the Mil figures, but as currently stated, they can do just that. (Or at least try. I'm not a lawyer, so I can't say if they'd be legally able to do it.) And y'all can corner the market on tar and feathers, but if you use it on me, it better not conform to my shape or I'll sue you for infringement!!!

Dave - I think it has something to do with phases of the moon. Seems to be a regular cycle around here. When I was a newbie, it bothered me too, then I got the hang of it and discovered that it is really good therapy. Here's how it goes. DAZ periodically makes announcements about it's products and policies. Normally we read them and say nothing because we agree with their wish to protect their products, and because we are mostly all good Dazbees. Then (usually on a Friday about the time DAZ closes for the evening)the FEVER hits. All of a sudden, something fairly reasonable starts sounding like fishy-monkey-business to us. We fear that our livelyhoods, families and reputations are being threatened by "ThePowersThatBe". We rant. We rave. We beat our chests. We make silly fools of ourselves and blow up every statement to gigantic proportions and exaggerate them to the point that they have nothing to do with the original topic. We weave about each other, sparring with words and unseen gestures in this ritual dance throughout the night. Sometimes this goes on all weekend. But by dawn on Monday we are exhausted, having spent our venom that has built up for who-knows-what reason over the past month or so. But we are relieved... refreshed... almost invigorated. And when DAZ arrives at work we greet them with "Good Mrning, sirs", "Did you have a nice weekend, sirs?", "How can we serve you today, sirs?". And all the furror of the previous fever seems to be forgotten by all but a few who got scorched by the flames. But it was really their own fault for dancing too close to the fire.

Well I would buy that but I aint a newbie. I was here before this became Renderosity. I've seen adminstrations come and go. Heck my Poser 4 is still in it's original Metacreations folder (although the prog bears a Curious Labs logo). I've seen some lynch mobs during all days of the week not just on "Friday night". It doesnt take much for us to pick up our pitch forks and torches to go after somebody. It gets a little tiresome and downright annoying when there are better things to talk about. We should be encouraging and supporting one another instead of all this name calling and back stabbing.

You left out "We dance around and poke fun at all and sundry, just because... " ;] We're not all good Dazbees. Some of us don't really give a rats. Some of us don't neccessarily think that just because it has Daz on the label, it's "quality through and through oh my!". And on the other extreme, some of us think that Daz tends to make reasonably good products and freebies coupled with the occassional boneheaded business decision. ;] They do not in any way have a monopoly on that, but they are just as capable of doing it as say... CuriousLabs, Renderosity or DSi. And by now they should have figured out that when that's the perception, they're going to get their fair share of cheap shots aimed their way. If you happen to wonder which category I fall into... I'm in the "I happen to think they usually make decent products, but I've bought equally as good or better stuff from non Daz outlets" category. And I enjoy the occassional cheap shot when someone leaves themselves wide open.

LMAO@ronstuff!!!! That sums it all up in a nutshell LOL Sassy who's stayed out of all the threads... til now!

Hrm... Except that we are also overlooking the fact that DAZ is now blatantly attempting to compete on a wholesale level with Renderosity's MP. Think the month-long acquisition of Poser Pros and the policies that effectively damage Rosity's merchants directly is all a coincidence? Especially when we couple that with DAZ's policy of "acquiring" rosity exclusive vendors... I'd say this is the opening shots of something that's bound to be a knock-down fight. The fact that DAZ is making cheap shots sure as hell doesn't make me feel very comfortable about dealing with them. ( And in fact, I won't be any longer ). As I said elsewhere recently, this will eventually improve the community, I think, but the road to get there will be a rocky one. Paul

DAZ's "clarification" makes it clear why they are concerned. Or should that be paranoid? It cannont, however, change the fact that their "policy" is legally unenforcable. In fact, it's even more hilarious. In effect, they are saying that no one can make full body suits for the millennium characters! (All DAZ would have to do is look at this totally original catsuit, claim that the shape of it could be obtained using millennium morphs, and call it a copyright violation!) Where in hell do they get that one? Thanks for the giggle, DAZ. Does it occur to you guys at all, that someone who wanted to circumvent the need to buy Victoria 2 or Michael 2 would find it way, way easier to just pick up a warez copy than to go to all this trouble? I'll bet it has. But instead you are making unenforcable policies that will put off your loyal customers and discourage those whose products are largely responsible for DAZ's success. Sheesh.

By the way, I am assuming that you all have heard the news about DAZ acquiring PoserPros and their intent to create a retail store there for the "second-rank" [my term] software that might not otherwise meet DAZ store criteria. And they intend to allow their own merchants to distribute items that others will be forbidden to distribute. Just thought I would throw another log on this dwindling fire.

You're kidding? That doesnt seem quite fair IMHO.

No, it's not fair actually.. I mean, when you boil it down, the only peeps buying our stuff is us really :) I do not want to cast any dispersions on the acquisition/merger though, I am actually quite happy for them.. but I would be less then honest if I didn't say that the timing of the two announcements hasn't given me a sense of unease. Its all just conjecture though really - I guess I am back to 'wait and see' lol :) time will tell

Ah Carolly.. my bad there. but, I guess sometimes it is better to run the risk of being corrected then to think thoughts in private and not know better, so thanks for the info :) Chad, I owe you one shave.. and it's a smashing face I am sure :)

Only month long, Paul? Heh. ;]

Sorry, Ironbear... just going on what the "official" line proclaims, and since I hadn't looked at it for several hours I may be off. ;)

Again, I point to my most recent product (with ivyroses), Peytrov. This character comes with a CUSTOM ORIGINAL MESH bodysuit that fits the character's specific combination of morphs and FBM's, but does not, itself, morph. There are no morphs at all in the CR2 of this file. It was shaped to fit a specific body type created using M2. Is this particular product a violation? If not, good. if so, should I delete said product?

{{{{By the way, I am assuming that you all have heard the news about DAZ acquiring PoserPros and their intent to create a retail store there for the "second-rank" [my term] software that might not otherwise meet DAZ store criteria. And they intend to allow their own merchants to distribute items that others will be forbidden to distribute. Just thought I would throw another log on this dwindling fire.}}}} Thanks for admitting that all you are doing is attempting to stoke the flames ;) I think that allows us all to dismiss out of hand all that you have said. But for those who might actually have fallen for this, he could not be farther from the truth. There are no different rules for distribution available to DAZ brokers than to any other store as far as what is allowed to be distributed. This biggest difference between DAZ and other brokerages is that DAZ is MORE restrictive on it's own merchants than any other organization out there on quality, and sometimes on "what something actually is". The rest of you can get away with almost anything, depending on where you sell ;) As to second rate, not so long as I have my name attached to it, it will not be second rate. I do not do second rate. This will be a first rate store just as it always was going to be :) Nothing second rate about it. It is still some ways away, so I invite you all to come see when we do get it open, and I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

"Thanks for admitting that all you are doing is attempting to stoke the flames ;) I think that allows us all to dismiss out of hand all that you have said." Thanks for being dismissive, Mehndi... I doubt the rest of us will take your advice and dismiss it as well. And I'm not sure DAZ has higher quality standards... in fact, I'm pretty sure the best texture for Stephanie, Aeris, was released here, and still resides in the Market Place. When it was released, DAZ's textures for their own model sucked completely. In fact, most of them still do. Paul

Carolly it's a shame you wasted your money on Phil's CD, not that I'm saying it's no good, I'm sure it's excellent. What I'm saying is you can't use it to make any clothes for the millenium figures & share or sell them. Daz are saying if you make any clothing for their figures and distribute you're breaking the law. Fair enough you can't use the morphs to make clothes that's understood, but then they go on to state you can't make your own mesh and wrap it round the figure, which really defeats the purpose of owning the figures or phil's CD totally. Plus if you take their morphing clothing pak and take the morphs from each seperate piece you can get mike2 for free anyway, so they are in breach of their own copyright. Sorry Daz but you've just killed your company with legal bs. Rob

ummm, did any one miss the fact this a marketing exercise.OK so you cant distribute the morph, BUT a person can go to Daz and buy the tailor themselves sound of cash register

Rob, Who says that I intend to share, sell, or otherwise distribute that which hasn't been built? Or if perchance I do construct something which folks clamor to obtain, that I'd be too stupid to talk to the good folks at DAZ before releasing it? (Sheesh, they made their reasoning clear MONTHS ago!) Besides, I might not even be working with millennium figures. The items I am interested in constructing fall into a very narrow niche. I doubt if anybody here would be attracted to truly authentic viking gear. When there is all this fantasy armor and winged helmets and brass brazzieres, bone iceskates and carved prows wouldn't get noticed. I need to build an animated clock in the shape of Baba Yaga's hut for one enterprise... and if anybody here knows THAT specific reference off the top of their head, I'll be duly impressed! There are a couple other directions calling to me. But when folks would rather get their props and costumes from Hollywood? :: "All that is gold does not glitter...." Any learning enterprise isn't wasted money. Not ever. But pity can be wasted on those who don't need it. Why don't you take that pity and give it to someone who wants it badly? Carolly

Seems like DAZ is out to break any third party creators or their sites by way of their 'new' EULA. Thus removing competition (their words not mine) Has anyone received any notification that amends the EULA that they agreed to when they first purchased the Mil people V2's? In fact, has anyone agreed to this amendment? It stands to reason that such an attempt to stop any third party or sites from creating anything that could harm their sales is the basis for their new EULA. They appear to feel somewhat threatened..IMHO. Legalities? Don't think its legally enforcable somehow......

I would just take a half sphere, put alot of "sticks" sticking through it artfully to create sort of a straw roundhut with it, then mount it on top of long spindly bird legs. I think one of the animal based sites have bird legs available. As to not being able to make anymore clothes without it being illegal, stuff and nonsense. DAZ has not said this, and they support 3rd party clothing makers fully. What they are not wanting to have happen are merely certain abuses that have caused an impact on their business ability to sell their own original meshes, such as catsuits that can be used to substitute for an actual body, thereby enabling people to avoid purchasing the body the catsuit shape was derived from.

No disrespect here..but the catsuit was only an example they used...they did not specify that it was the only thing their new EULA was about..that bit was very very broad and open to 'changes of interpretation as they want', which in effect gives no-one a sense of peace. When one buys something, they want clear and concise indications of the terms and conditions..not inferred or suggested or even conditions that can be altered at any stage of the game should they (the sellers - DAZ) decide. my personal opinion

Posting mostly to be e-mail notified of new inputs, but I'd like to reiterate and clarify the more general concerns I voiced in another thread (http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=765077) : The interpretation of the DAZ EULA I'd like to know is WRONG is as follows : A hopeful creative 3rd party operator, let's call him C3PO, wants to create a new product, say a bra for Vicki 2, with her attractions set to XXL size, as it has occurred to him that some Poserites might use some setting like that on V2. Being an honest guy, he checks the DAZ EULA to make sure he's on legally firm ground. He thinks logically, not legally, so, to him, it seems to boil down to what is the raw material, and what is the production process, or : 1) The DIDO principle - DAZ In, DAZ Out 2) The 3PIDO principle - 3rd Party In, DAZ Out So, C3PO asks himself, can I use the chest group of the Vicki mesh as a base? No - if one uses any DAZ-made material as raw material, it doesn't really matter what he does to it. No matter how much booleaning, smoothing, triangulation, vertex decimation etc. he applies, the result is still derived from original DAZ stuff. DAZ in, DAZ out. So, EULA says : Do not distribute w/out DAZ permission. Fair enough, C3PO would be pissed, if anyone used HIS product that way. All right, says C3PO, if I use my own mesh, can I apply the XXL-relevant MORPHS to it - perhaps using this fancy new Tailor thing? No, that'd STILL be using DAZ mesh as (part of) the raw material - morphs are essentially meshes in another format. So it's still DIDO, EULA says no. A lawyer might say yes, but C3PO sides with the EULA - morphs are based on meshes, and DAZ morphs on DAZ meshes. Okay, C3PO buys a modeling app, claws his way up the learning curve, reads all the tutes, and models the bra. Sooner or later (sooner, if he's smart), he'll have to check his creation against the Vicki mesh, and adjust as needed. He may automate the fitting process by using, say ClothReyes or Magnetic Vertex, or he may do it all by hand. But the point is : he HAS to "model against" the Vicki mesh. Even if he only checks his mesh against Vicki in side Poser, he is STILL fitting his mesh to DAZ stuff, and that holds true whether he decides to model his own morphs, or just do a suit for the base figure. The finished C3PO bra, including any self-made morphs, however, has not a single vertex in it that "started life" in a DAZ mesh. But, alas, EULA (http://www.daz3d.com/pages/faq/answers/license/2nd-derivative.html) lists unacceptable methods of deriving new meshes from DAZ models, and includes "methods involving tools that can create a derivative mesh without transferring the polygonal layout of the original. These types of tools/methods may include [...] shrink-wrapping/fitting [...] none of these methods will result in a mesh that is not still subject to DAZ's copyright. " So, having fitted his mesh to a DAZ mesh to make it at all useful, logically, our poor C3PO must face the fact that it becomes subject to the 3rd Party In, DAZ Out, or 3PIDO, principle. Or, to put it simply, if you create ANYTHING that's useful with DAZ products, you violate DAZ copyright. Knowing DAZ as a reasonably bunch of people, our C3PO cannot imagine that DAZ intended this consequence of their EULA. But he can't (and won't) do a lot of work, only to have a permanent risk of being sued hanging over his head. So he'd very much like to know that he's wrong. So please, let's hear it - DAZ says ?

That's a pretty good reason for the rule, now, that I think of it... DAZ MUST be worried that people will start posting headless catsuits instead of Mike 2. Ok... now it's all clear.

The whole thing revolves about a bodysuit which 'somehow' can circumvent the need for Mike/Vicky 2.
Pardon my saying so, but that is just so much bullshit. Anyone who has enough criminal energy to circumvent the purchase of Mike/Vicky 2 in this way will do something different. He will fire up any of at least a dozen P2P applications and get the original Mike/Vicky 2 (plus skin tectures, hair and clothes).
In effect DAZ equates third party vendors and free stuff offerers with warez providers.

Hey Carolly, Colour yourself impressed. I know who Baba Yaga is and what her hut looks like and I'd be much more interested in some authentic Viking gear than in any of the fantasy armour I've seen. What's more, I could most likely spot it if you haven't done your research properly ;-)

Yes, want hut with chicken legs too. ;)

Two things: 1. thip: you and several others are obviously wrong. Of course you can make and sell clothes for DAZ meshes! What nonsense to suggest anything else. 2. Everybody: DAZ is a company with owners and employees just like any other. They need to protect their investments and products, and I think they do so in a reasonable way. In fact, they are not particularly restrictive, allowing all sorts of derivative products and freebies to go unchecked into the communities' melting pots. That they won't allow us to sell or give away stuff that can damage their products' market, is fine. In fact, I would consider them fools otherwise. (This Mike catsuit thing - don't know whether this is an issue or not. I'm speaking more generally here, just as Chad is.) If you want to see restrictive, unpleasant practices, go out there and take a look at what the music companies, film studios, Coca Cola, MacDonalds, Microsoft, and other gargantuans do. That's a whole other ball game, kids. So stop being so darn neurotic. And if you want to sell stuff that is add-on to DAZ products, fine - but READ and UNDERSTAND the agreements and conditions, don't just take a chance. If you have trouble interpreting it all, then fine, ask a lawyer or some other person in the know to explain it to you. If you don't fully understand the conditions, you are at risk, regardless of the market you're in, the type of products you're selling. If you sell soft drinks in bottles shaped like a Coke bottle, you WILL get trouble. Even in Timbuktu. I'm a multimedia producer, I use software, video, music and images and other stuff in my productions, stuff made by other people. I can NEVER just claim that the conditions were difficult to understand if I make a mistake. It's my problem to understand, my responsibility. I think DAZ is fairly generous, they have chosen to be so from a marketing standpoint since it increases the sales potential of their products, which is a correct analysis in my view. However, this 3D world changes all the time, gets messy, and now they clarified their standpoint. Fine. The conditions for distribution of Vicki and Mike cr2's and the like has always been perfectly clear. Just read them. So all this lynch mob stuff, just drop it, kids. There's way too much paranoia here. Let's be glad that DAZ hasn't done the TOTAL BAN thing from the beginning, that would have been easier for them. They've chosen to be fairly open. And that's one of the prime reasons this is such a thriving community and all you vendors have something to sell. And someone to sell it to. Remember folks, this isn't a flea market on a back street in Djakarta - it's a fully-fledged international commercial marketplace with ALL that it entails. :] FishNose

OK, here is what it boils down to in my mind: 1.) It's ok to make a pair of shorts for Mike and distribute it. 2.) It's not ok to create a bodysuit for Mike because Mike 1 can borrow the suit, and pretend he's Mike 1. 3.) It's ok to make and sell such a suit if you have an exclusive arrangement with DAZ.

FishNose - it's not paranoia when you KNOW someone's out get you ;o) Seriously, I couldn't agree more with your appraisal of DAZ. That is precisely why I expect them to understand that I (and many other clothes creators) would like a clarification of the unclear EULA. Personally, I am certain that DAZ both accepts and encourages 3rd party stuff, as long it is original (as opposed to having "started life" as DAZ stuff, before being doctored to camouflage its origin). BUT my beliefs just aren't good enough, IMHO. Why ? - At last count 20000+ people had d/l'ed my humble freestuff. - I am part of an up-and-coming website that takes people's MONEY in return for my humble creations. - BOTH some of my freestuff AND some of my commercial items can and may be used to create new Poser stuff. If any of all those people should ask me if my stuff is legal (especially if they are about to do some stuff of their own based on mine), it's just not good enough to answer "I believe I am". I want to be able to say "Yes!" without reservations. This is not a trivial matter, and since DAZ are pros, I believe they'll understand that. AND understand that happy 3rd party producers are the best sales-boosters imaginable. And now I promise to say no more until monday. Keep cool, all!

Ajax: "3. Ron's spawned character morphs. Ron, if you used any of the Mike 2 morphs as an "ingredient" in your "recipe" of morphs prior to spawning your full body morph, then LadySilverMage is correct and you are very much in violation of DAZ's EULA. They're quite clear about that and always have been, as the two quotes you've provided show./" Nope, sorry, DAZ was not very clear on that topic, or I wouldn't have done what I did. That's very simple. *** Mehndi: "There are no different rules for distribution available to DAZ brokers than to any other store as far as what is allowed to be distributed." WRONG. DAZ will allow you to sell a bodysuit that will make Mike 1 look like Mike 2 if you have an exclusve relationship with DAZ. However, DAZ won't let you give away or sell such a bodysuit elsewhere. *** FishNose: "So stop being so darn neurotic. And if you want to sell stuff that is add-on to DAZ products, fine - but READ and UNDERSTAND the agreements and conditions, don't just take a chance. If you have trouble interpreting it all, then fine, ask a lawyer or some other person in the know to explain it to you. If you don't fully understand the conditions, you are at risk, regardless of the market you're in, the type of products you're selling." Maybe DAZ and others could make an effort to be more understandable? Isn't that why they have an FAQ, and why they come into Renderosity and PoserPros, and make an effort to talk to us? "Neurotic?!" Hardly. Oh, and just why didn't DAZ have the common sense or decency to voice their objections to The Tailor before we spent our money on it, and before we distributed things which are now potentially illegal? And why did DAZ wait until after they had exclusive selling rights to The Tailor to announce their policy? And why is it ok to distribute said offending products only if you have an exclusive arrangement with DAZ? If Mike 1 can pretend to look like Mike 2, DAZ is still losing a potential sale... But it's ok if DAZ profits from that theft?! So you see your little lesson on the world economy doesn't hold much water.

And what happens if I make a software with features like Tailor and many more? This software can be: 1) Sold 2) Free 3) Open source ??????????

Ron, there are NO DIFFERENT RULES for us. What I mean is we have to ALL ask. As it so happens, the answer given will always probably be, "only if you sell it on our site". But the rule is the same. We all have to ask :) The answer will probably always be the same too. This is no different than Discreet saying that ONLY authorized distributors may carry their products, so that you do not ever see a Discreet product out at CompUSA. It is no different than the fact that K-Mart will NEVER carry an Armani suit, no matter how much Martha Stuart crap clutters it's shelves. Certain high quality places heavily restrict who can market what where, it is how they stay high quality and keep their edge. So if I want to sell certain things, I know in advance where I am going to need to go to ask to sell them, and also what the answer will be :) I can worth within the system to achieve my needs and DAZ's. I am cool with that. Why aren't you?

Mehndi: another merchant who brokers with DAZ has stated that DAZ told it's brokering merchants some time ago that it was unacceptable for V2 or M2 compatible morphs to be included in clothing created for Vicky and Mike, unless that clothing was sold through DAZ. Even when those morphs were created on an entirely original mesh, using magnets. This wasn't a public announcement, but if true (it was stated in the Merchant's Forum here) it's clear that protecting copyright is NOT what DAZ had in mind. They are trying to destroy the competition.

As it so happens, the answer given will always probably be, "only if you sell it on our site". What is with free stuff? Will DAZ host it too? ;P

Mehndi, I don't feel "ready for prime time." I'm not ready to try selling something. On the other hand, I did my research, and waited 4 months before I released my first Free Stuff characters. Then I discover that I had unwittingly violated DAZ's current stance on distribution of Tailored clothing. So because I am not ready to sell an item, I can be found in violation of DAZ's policy. However, if I were ready to sell something, it would be ok to violate DAZ policy if I made an exclusive arrangement to sell with them? Perhaps DAZ should rewrite their Tailor policy and clearly state it's ok to make clothes that allow Mike 1 to look like Mike 2 as long as DAZ makes a profit. DAZ still stands to lose some Mike 2 sales. But DAZ is ok with that as long as they make money from another product DAZ sells. Of course, if you push this policy, you'll see that Renderosity and other fine sites will lose merchants or sales. Isn't DAZ in effect helping to kill the "free market"?! Now, I can't help notice that one vital question keeps getting ignored: "Why in hell did DAZ wait 4 months to voice an objection to such a practice? And why didn't DAZ make this policy available for all of us to see?!" I revisited DAZ's FAQ and couldn't find that policy. Besides, if DAZ is interested in keeping us informed, they darned well should have posted that policy here at Renderosity.

Eirian, I am a DAZ broker, and I get ALL Daz mailings on policy to their brokers ;) At no time has such a statement been made to us. I have no doubt however that someone may have said such a thing, since there has been certain merchants not happy with DAZ and wishing to grind an axe sometimes. Ron, does it really matter why it took 4 months? Frankly, DAZ has been busy. They work 12 to 16 hour days slaving over a hot computer developing their stuff to sell. I know. I see the timestamp on the emails that come in to me from the developers at DAZ. Maybe it was not till actually testing The Tailor to include in their store that they actually had time to comprehend fully what the tailor did and enabled to happen. Did that ever occur to you all? Also, as I have said, there has been a certain model or two released recently that has also contributed to this crises being precipitated. So they are tackling solving a problem after it occurred. Sometimes we all have to do that since we are not precognitive. As to keeping you informed, they chose PoserPros since this is where alot of general day to day communications may be occurring from now on. I am not sure why they may not have chosen other sites. I do not make decisions on where posts should be made, all I do is flag posts they make on my own site so they are "sticky" and remain visible. Perhaps if this site could flag things sticky they would have posted here. Sticky is a strong and empowering tool for announcements.

Think, Ron, for just a minute. Forget about your frustrating experience with this, for a minute. Ask yourself now: if someone came up with Taylor, what else is comming? what's the next program going to do? and how could that damage DAZ. You know as well as I do that in this field there is always something new comming along. Now put yourself in DAZ's shoes. What would you do? Would you try to protect your line? Would you enter into such agreements at least in the short term, untill you get your bearings? You've been in business. You know how it goes. This was unavoidable. The minute I heard P5 was comming out, I stopped work on a freebie project myself. That's how it goes. This can be worked out. There is no need to run for the life-boats, here. Don't invest too much in this. Cheers Q

AFAIK, it isn't the case that anything that appears in an EULA necessarily has legal force. There's a story, I don't know if it's true, that Microsoft tried to put in a clause that would prohibit using Microsoft software to write anything that was unflattering to Microsoft. You can't do that sort of thing. There are laws of copyright, and those are what count. If you take a DAZ mesh, shift every polygon randomly a fraction, and then try to publish the result, you have created a derivative mesh and that's bad. If you model the mesh from scratch and then just check that it fits Vicki as suggested by thip above, that's not derivative, even if DAZ would like to define it as so. DAZ does not have the power to change copyright law or the meaning of the English language just to suit its business model.

Mehndi, Sounds like you have become nothing but a spokeperson for DAZ. You are missing the point here. DAZ used the catsuit as a good example of what they will not allow. The reasoning? You can place the catsuit on Mike1 and it will look like Mike2. Ok I will give them that. They then state that it is OK to make a pair of Pants, because if you leave the shirt off mike it won't look right. But what if I make both a pair of pants AND a shirt? You can put both the shirt and pants on Mike and get the EXACT same result as using a one piece outfit. It doesn't matter that I modelled this item completly on my own or even made the morphs completly on my own. It FITS a mike2 morph and therefor breaks thier copyright. This is completly wrong! Think about this senario and think about the ramifications. If they take a stand on this then I can make only pants or shirts but not both. Why limit a modeller to just one catagory? Oh wait, they aren't. If I agree to sell through them I can do it. That is utter BS also as it stands in the way of free market. The analogy of K-mart not being able to sell Armani suits isn't a good one. It is the creator of the Armani suits that are setting this limitation, not K-Mart. In this case It is DAZ saying I can't sell at other stores if I make something, it doesn't matter if I have an agreement with them or not. If I make a Shirt and Pants set I should be able to say it can be sold only at such or such site. The sites can't say I can't sell it elsewhere if I have never entered an agreement with them.

Kattman, Vicky wears a catsuit, while Mike wears a bodysuit. That confuses me too. Mehndi, I didn't see any announcement that state you're now an official DAZ spokesperson, or that PoserPros is now the "exclusive" site where DAZ makes announcements. In fact, there have been other DAZ spokespeople and announcements made here at Renderosity. And DAZ would do well to keep their presence here known as well as their policies. As it stands now, PoserPros doesn't have anywhere near the appeal and usefulness for me that Renderosity does. And your comments in some of these threads have frankly been less than flattering to yourself and PoserPros. That's something you might want to consider since you've now "gone commercial." Ron

FWIW: I somehow doubt Rosity intends to restrict what you can sell in the MP, regardless of what DAZ seems to think... At least, that's my take on Jeff's post. ;) Paul

This is the totally wrong thing for Daz to do even from a business standpoint. If the Poser 5 models are even HALF as good as Vicki and Mike, merchants will drop them like hot potatoes and switch to models they CAN make clothes and morphs for. And if enough merchants do this, the user market will make the switch, too. I haven't been too happy with daz for a number of reasons lately, but this really takes the cake. Why bother putting in all those morphs if the models are meant to be used in their default (boring) states? For still images it's not THAT big of a deal.. people can postwork clothes onto models. I guess that wouldn't be an infringement in Daz's eyes, unless they feel that drawing "morphed" clothing could infringe on their copyright because people could make morphs SIMILAR to mike and vicki 2 based on those pictures.. (Sorry, just HAD to say it. ;) But for people making animations, clothing is key. I hope Poser 5 has some decent models and the ability to clothe them right in the package. It's what Daz deserves at this point.

If you model the mesh from scratch and then just check that it fits Vicki as suggested by thip above, that's not derivative, even if DAZ would like to define it as so. DAZ does not have the power to change copyright law or the meaning of the English language just to suit its business model. ....Thank you, Phantast. I have been peeping something along this line throughout this whole mess...to deaf ears. Maybe it was not till actually testing The Tailor to include in their store that they actually had time to comprehend fully what the tailor did and enabled to happen. Did that ever occur to you all? This occured to me....and, i see them shifting to try and change the rules after the fact. THIS IS NOT LEGAL...however, if i could foresee this hoopla, when the tailor program was introduced, and did not purchase since the transferring of morphs seemed a little legally "iffy"...why did not the great minds who run daz pick up on that as well....? seems to me....okay....you make a mesh, by hand in a modelling app....then, let's say, you made a dress for vicki...you twist your vicki dials and export her into your modelling app...and, hand pull morphs for the breast area... now....you make a whole little package of this sort of clothing....a whole new clothing pack for vicki...and, it can morph to fit small/medium/large/xxlarge vicki chests...coolness...you have lingerie, short dresses/long full, long sleek dresses/shorts/slacks, and a couple of blouses. and, you have some buyers. you would rather not sell through daz, or renderosity...because they would take half of your profits. What is plug ugly about this latest daz move is: they would have EVERYONE believing that anything created, even as a totally new mesh for the m2 figures, must be "okayed" for sale by them...guess what...i take my little clothing pack, and my little vicki that it fits to them, ask for an "okay"...and, of COURSE they are gonna say....you can sell this...but only at our site, or at poserpros. however, the law is the law...sadly folks aren't understanding that if you create a mesh...and you create an original morph/s....that's yours. it does not belong to daz because you made it to fit one of their characters. what is and is not acceptable in their readme is....no redistribution of cr2's in any form. folks may believe daz, though. and, daz will pretty much corner the market, due to ignorance and fear on the part of the clothing makers. that could kill off renderosity, other sites, and independent modellers...and, yes, there is free stuff...too...

1)Daz3D brought www.poserpros.com 2)Daz will be opening a proper storefront with that url /and/ a forum. 3)Certain elements in the community, who's products don't met the Daz standards are now extrememly worried that Daz, who have said if it contains morphs from V2, M2 Mk, Stef etc, sell it thorugh us, will now be seen for what they really are: money hungry 3rd raters with no talent and only here to take your money. One final thing I'd like to say is this: What happened to the days when /everything/ was free, when no one cared about money only the art? Remember folks, the art is the only important thing, /not/ money or who owns what or who is trying to screw who. Shaerra who's been around since the days of Willow, Grey and www.poserforum.com, just why bother trying to talk to muggles about magic?

3)Certain elements in the community, who's products don't met the Daz standards are now extrememly worried that Daz, who have said if it contains morphs from V2, M2 Mk, Stef etc, sell it thorugh us, will now be seen for what they really are: money hungry 3rd raters with no talent and only here to take your money. Geeze, this is harsh. Remember folks, the art is the only important thing, /not/ money or who owns what or who is trying to screw who. Well, at one time, creating a render was enough for me...but, then, i started to want to make it "mine"...so, i learned morphing....then, i did some texturing....and guess what....this finally lead to learning...painfully, may i add to model. i began to feel like more of a "true" cg artist, at that point...and, began doing less artistic creation in the rendering aspect...and, more modelling. it didn't much matter...i was learning something, and felt that, finally i could truly think in terms of making everything in my render by myself. then, i hit on a really cute combo of vicki's dials....and, i made a dress or two for it...and, saw some flaws, and dumped them...but, i persisted....i spent a helluva long time trying to figure out how to get a long skirt to conform...i can't say all this wasn't fun...it was/is...and, then, there is texturing for the little dresses/and stuff i made. i love zbrush....it does some really cool stuff....so, i set out to try and learn it for at least it's texturing functions...yup...fun, too. now, everything is just about ready....a tweak here, a tweek there, and the dreaded texturing...i thought i would sell this. i thought all that i made, and hassled with, and learned through my flops could finally pay off a bit. then here you come, struttin' in....and, implying that making meshes is not art, and, if i want to reap any rewards from months and months of trial and error...and..."no, this is STILL not good enough" I am GREEDY. i don't care how long you have been around. old timers can be wrong too. and, in my not so humble opinion....it is wrong to lump folks into any kind of group without knowing them a bit, first.

Posting for email back.

Maybe it is the Poser community (and possibly places such as Renderosity) to blame for all this. If everyone were not so keen to make a quick buck from everyone else, then the community would actually find something else to talk about than copyright issues. The Poser community wonders why it is never taken seriously from the outside...look at yourselves! You are like a bunch of kids, arguing over a toy! I don't blame DAZ, at least they try to run their business professionally, more than what can be said for the small time "businesses" that cry fowl at every chance they get. Don't forget, without DAZ, there would have been no business for you to have built a foundation on. If you feel so aggrieved by DAZ's actions, then build your own version of Mike or Victoria, and then try to keep up with developments as they arise surrounding your figures! Wise up people, this is business...it's called "protecting your assets"! What I can see from the outside, is the Poser community imploding as everyone fights for their slice of the "greed cake". I'll just wait around for the crumbs at the end ;o) Cheers