I'll refrain from commenting on that if you don't mind bikermouse. Ron and I have butted heads a few times in the past and got over it, he even forgave me for my request for an "ignore ronknights button". snicker I have no doubt we'll slam together on opposite sides in a future thread at some point, but for now I don't think he needs me sniping at him just after I agreed that he has a couple valid points. LOL. :) In all honesty, aside from his profound habit of posting multiple threads on the same topic (perhaps as a result of the bigger threads being too heavy for dialup?) I do agree with him on some things over this issue. Just put it down to hyperactivity as a result of concern and confusion.

questor: o.k. I will. An ignore ronknights button?(he-he) that's the ticket. Don't get me wrong, DAZ is no hero in this, but I'd rather spend my "Renderosity Time" constructively - I did speak out on this topic, a view that somewhat supports Ron's view in this case. I don't need to restate my viewpoint every day or so . . . bikermouse wanders off, trying to think of something constructive to do, wondering what Little Dragon et al are up to, while a song keeps playing somewhere in the background," . . . Raindrops keep falling on my head,but that does'nt mean . . ." .

I know what you mean about restating views daily. This is the first time I've commented on the whole thing, I'd originally promised myself to keep out of it but, well. Sometimes resistance IS futile. Spending time constructively. Hrrm. I remember doing that once, what seems like many moons ago. Must try it again one day. :)

Heh heh, bikermouse. LittleDragon is spending time constructively hanging out with me and Questor in the downtown bar at 3D-Arena. ;]

FYI, a Mac OS9 version of the utility I'm working on will be available shortly after the PC version.

Ironbear: A beer'd go down good about now, but I always wait 'til after noon. (Well it's noon somewhere I guess.) Questor: Think I'm gonna make me one o' them buttons, figure out a python script for it, impliment it and if it works offer it in freestuff . . . (nah, get in trouble if I did that - freedom of speech and all.) ah well, cheers.

pepsi - coke... Tylenol - generic brand. MCI - AT&T I for one am not going to run my products through yet another program - no way no how! I'll buy Dina first and hope that soon she will be given a fabulous wardrobe (but I figure that soon there would be free tailored items to fit her) and a better face. I am also well aware that despite the comment above of "What happens with DAZ distributed items is really up to them, so you're asking in the wrong place. However, I very much doubt DAZ would require encoding for anything they distribute themselves. " they will have to follow their own rules on this. If they require all items sold that are not brokered at DAZ to have this safe guard then legally they must instill these safeguards on those items they do broker or they have created an unfair marketability which will create a very lovely court battle. One can not say "you can't do this unless we have all rights...." In essence a modeller could sue them for unfair practices. Furthermore by not encoding the products themselves they are in essence saying "it's not really a problem" and the court system will see that they do not actually consider it a problem. Because unless their system checks and insures that you have previously bought M2 before allowing you to purchase the M2 bodysuit (an illegal invasion of privacy) then they have no way of knowing that I didn't just buy the M2 bodysuit to stick on M1.. Sorry MS tried that remember? didn't work for them either and they are alot more powerful with more money to fight their cause. If I were a modeller (and I'm not) I would continue along in the creation of clothes that fit and let them try to prove it in court. Obnoxious? Yes, worried - no, for several reasons. First of all, the first time they try to take this to court many of those who model clothing will back up a fellow modeller or run for the hills in regards to clothing for DAZ characters. So we will see a huge batch of clothes for new characters. Secondly, many will see a lawsuit against approximated morphs as an attempt to curb free enterprise and will no longer shop, support (via linking etc.) or refer DAZ in any manner. In the end when they lose (and I really have no doubt that they can not claim approximations as derivatives) the stain on their reputation will be such that they will never recover. But let's assume that in some twilight zone universe they win - so what, by winning they will lose because the modellers will not create for them and frankly most of DAZ's store is fueled by brokered creators. Try using a DAZ certificate there and see how hard it is to find anything non-brokered.

****FYI, a Mac OS9 version of the utility I'm working on will be available shortly after the PC version **** Woopee fraggin' doo Russ, Are you actually paying attention or doing your usual steam along and ignore the unwashed masses act?

tosses over a sixpack It's always afternoon someplace, bikermouse. ;]

one more little note (brought up by something russ said at PP): The law recognizes assumption of allowances. So since DAZ has never previously said one could not create clothing that fit their models, they can not now take that stance. How long have modellers been creating for DAZ characters? How many DAZ items are "brokered" (which means that DAZ does not own the rights to them) & fit DAZ characters? How many years has DAZ had the knowledge that said items were being created and distributed with "approximated morphs to fit their models? Since they have allowed it for so long they have created an environment that allows for it now - no matter how it s done, as long as the actual morphs aren't being distributed. I'm not just talking about the 4 months that tailor has been out, but the years that DAZ/Zygote have allowed (and encouraged) people to create clothing that will fit their models. Lastly the law considers if a product lowers the value of the original, in this particular case it actually raises the value of the product. now I'm off to get a white russian - beer blech

I like the OS 9 version Questor :) .. Maybe I missed something though

Well said LSM. Good points. both times. :) Sorry Ghost, I wasn't knocking that there was a Mac version just that Russel has an irritating habit of completely ignoring large numbers of people and just posting for his own benefit. It gets tiresome after a while. Of course there needs to be a Mac version of utilities like this, but by posting so deep in this thread as he did the implication is that he read some of it yet chose to ignore the fact that some people are objecting to having to use yet another utility and the fact that the ever growing number of new users are already bedazzled by the number of tools around they need to get to grips with that this is just adding to the overall confusion and general mess. I wasn't focusing on the MacOS, but on the announcement itself. Sorry for any confusion there. :)

Sheesh, guys. If you object to using a new utility, then DON'T USE IT. Why do you feel the need to ruin a thread where a small group of people are trying to create something that will be useful and have applications far beyond the present crisis? Why do you feel the need to prevent the creation of something? There are at least ten threads on this subject already, and you have turned this thread into a clone of all of those others, when it started out being something unique. There was no other thread looking at the technical aspects of this. Now you've turned this one into just one more totally worthless duplicate of ten that already exist. Someone asked if this solution would work for Macs, and Russel answered the question. Maybe the rest of you could just go back to all of the threads you already dominate without attempting to shout down those that contribute to the genuine purpose of this thread.

It's got sod all to do with not using a utility that we or I don't want to use it's got everything to do with being FORCED to use it. FORCED to employ it to give or accept future files. FORCED to comply with a dodgy position that has already existed for some time and is now being stomped upon. As for raising the issues in this thread. This thread is intended to help solve those issues, so any objections are not only relevant but necessary. Knee jerk reactions are one of the things that this community is famous for. This "utility" is another knee jerk reaction to Daz's knee jerk reaction, and I for one am sick of having my balls kicked into my throat because someone can't handle that they're not making all the money. Don't like me being in this thread? Don't read me.

I know I didn't start this thread to endorse DAZ's current opinion, or to give a knee jerk reaction. Just to try and offer some means of 'coping' or working around/with the current stance of DAZ. As for working on the app with Russell to try and get a better, less step, solution using the principle of encoding.. Don't use it if you don't want. I know that it adds steps, and yet another tool among a growing sea. But, until DAZ changes their position this is just an attempt at a solution. I'm not asking for people to agree with DAZ. And, those that object to the creation of it can just not use it and ignore its' creation :) Tom

Sorry Depakotez, rather strangely perhaps, considering my stance on this. I do respect your efforts and those of Russel even if I don't particularly like some of Russel's habits. But as you say, this is an attempt to work around the current problem. Essentially this idea encodes a file for people to sell/share/whatever and the onus is on the receiver of that file to decode it. With your method there's some fiddling around to be done but it can be done with current software that is very well covered in tutorials and help. Russels solution adds yet another tool to the mix and results in an even steeper learning curve for people, simply to use a piece of clothing they own for a model they own. In that respect yes, within a short time there won't be a choice of whether or not to use the utility or technique. It'll be a matter of "I won't buy that item because I can't use it without this utility" See, it's not a choice on whether or not to employ the thing, people are going to be forced to use it, or NOT be able to use the models they PAID for. Personally I do support your purpose, and your idea, idealy this wouldn't be necessary, and shouldn't be necessary. The overall problem as I see it is the LACK of choice for people in this respect. Right now I can buy a piece of clothing or not. Doesn't matter. I don't have to faff around to use it. This way, I can't buy that clothing if I don't want to use another tool to get it into poser. I have no choice. Having said all that, and the noises I made above. It's waaaayyyy beyond time that I learned to model clothing so I can completely avoid this and future bull. Sorry to be so objectionable about this, but it is rather late in the day for "them" to be panicking over something that's far too late. The gate is open the horse has bolted. -- Addendum to earlier post. I had another go at your idea this evening, and it worked just fine. This time however I had nothing else loaded into ram, no software no utils. Now I get to load each one seperately to try again but I have a feeling the argument was with Dreamweaver not poser. RAM access argument. However your method worked on my computer so it wasn't anything in that method that caused the crash.

Questor, I really think you would be better off taking your objections to DAZ, rather than choosing your fellow Renderosity members who are simply trying to do something useful and beating them about the head and shoulders with your oppinions on a decision that wasn't made by them and which they can do nothing about. As I said, there are 10 threads already where you can say the sort of stuff you're saying. Why swamp this one? And why sink the knives into people who are just trying to provide another option for those that want it? You would prefer to have NO options? You would prefer to have only those options which are attractive to you? Why deny other people the options that they want to have? Depa, I notice MartinC has made an announcement about a similar utility he has been working on. You guys might want to check what he's doing to avoid duplication.

Well, I think people know where I stand on the issue of rather we should have to use the encoding procedure or not. If people aren't clear I'll be happy to say so after they've reread my posts, and read the implied meaning :) But, since at this point they aren't changing their position ... As for the tool, this will actually possibly replace the original Mover and work for OBJs as well. So rather than become just another tool, I think it may have the potential of becoming like Mover+. It does what Mover did and more. Or at least that's the goal :) -- Whew, I'm glad to hear it isn't the process. Which would have been really odd since it would have been the only problem with it ;) Yeah Dreamweaver is a pain sometimes, using XM? Been looking into it myself. Tom

PS. Kupa has just made some announcements on P5. Frankly, it looks to me like a lot of Poser 4 stuff is going to look very old and primitive when P5 comes out. Maybe nobody will want any of DAZ's current stuff anyway.

Ajax, Yeah I noticed that earlier. Didn't happen till after an email was sent to him, and RCook announced coding had began. Hopefully maybe after 2 years the minor changes can be made by him? Oh vell :) Whichever one works better I'll probably end up using myself. Odd though how his got a much more positive response... Tom

Ajax, Yeah this whole thing looks to be worthless conversation anyway LOL I hope that the dynamic cloth will work with existing clothing DROOOOL Tom

Depakotez Having seen a little of what MartinC is currently working on, I'm not convinced that this tool will replace Mover or become Mover+, but an alternative. It's always good to have alternatives. Heh, listen to me, a person who doesn't want one thing saying it's good to have two things. LOL Seriously though it is good what you're doing, I just find it hard swallowing someone elses boot when they shove it down my throat. I usually try to bite off the foot and get some protein with the leather. :) No, I haven't sprung for XM yet, this was version 4. I don't help develop websites anymore so haven't really seen the need to shell out for the upgrade. Ajax. I saw that, and yes, it is possible that P5 will make a lot of P4 stuff obsolete. But there's a hell of a lot of P4 stuff around and it's not likely to make Vic and Mike obsolete unless CL have found a new supplier of humanoid models, even then there's too much money invested in Vic and Mike to simply ditch them, tempting though that may be. Exciting stuff nonetheless. Nice of Kupa to post that thread as a taster and lighten the atmosphere, I just hope people accept what he's showing and don't badger him with thousands of endless questions. He's working a tension reliever, not a promotion. LOL

"Why do you feel the need to prevent the creation of something? " We aren't the ones doing that at all ajax.. We didn't say that creation had to stop or be changed, DAZ did. Now understand I am generally a huge DAZ fan, but I know monopolization when I see it. I do appreciate the time dep took - However, the point is that this is NOT a solution at all. It denies the illegality of DAZ's claim and in fact we're told this is how DAZ wants us to do it. Why? They have encourqaged clothing modellers to create clothes that fit all along, they have known about and encouraged the distribution of these clothes that fit in the current format they are in since Vicky 1 was created. So why now are they trying to say "nope changed our minds". These are the real issues - not the mover, not the tailor, those are blowing smoke over the real issues of DAZ's claims. The funny thing is they want us to use a utility that the creator intnded to be for personal use only and use it for commercial purposes to suit DAZ. They want MAZ to change his licensing as well. They want everyone else to do this - but they are not as of yet doing it themselves. So any post that says there is a "solution" to this problem is going to generate those who will show that it is not a solution by any means.

depakotez, Thanks for the idea. It's much appreciated. The reason you had to propose it is not appreciated, but utterly not your fault. As Questor and LadySilverMage have said, it's nothing against you at all. It was thoughtful of you to look at ways to resolve the immediate problem since you can't assist with the underlying issue. I'm sorry if posts here sounded like they were against you at all. Cheers!

I'll second Crescent's sentiments if that's ok. :)

I know they are, but thanks everyone for stating it again :) Yeah I know, not many people are happy with DAZ's new stance, and I believe rightfully so. Cheers to you all too :) Tom

As it stands, DAZ has announced their new stance is basically to put some of these concerns on hold until things can be worked out. At least that's my own befuddled take on the announcment I'd read tonight. But then most of you have already read it I'm sure? As for Eowyn's offer: I apologize for all the emotional energy I expended, and all the new threads. Eowyn, and others have given me reason to stop, shake my head and catch my breath. Questor: I respect you tremendously. I just love all those wonderful weapons you gave us in the DAZ free stuff archives, etc. We won't always agree on everything, but that doesn't mean we'll always fight either. And any disagreements can be very short-lived when accompanied with strong mutual respect.

Bribes, argh, we're down to bribes? A small custom proxy server would be a better long term solution - but I only kid. I seldom agree with Ron but this place would be a little less interesting without his contributions. I think his unusual excess on this issue is only a sign of how seriously he feels about it. Passion is good, though perhaps in slightly smaller doses. I only have Mike 1 and have no real desire for Mike 2 so that particular issue is academic to me. IANAL (I just discovered that neticism) I am not a lawyer, but to those who keep talking about the hypothetical court case... I imagine a beautiful day in Salt Lake City, U.S. District Court for the District of Utah, Hon. Judge Dee Benson presiding. I assume a copyright case goes to federal court but IANAL. Twelve Utah citizens, good and true listen to hours of testimony about morphs, vertices, approximation etc. The lawyer for DAZ, a small Utah company puts up Ron's picture of the two Mikes in their body suits and says that this here fella, from say New York City, is ripping off their honest fellow Utah citizens to the tune of 40 bucks each time someone uses his infernal thinagamabob. "Not a large amount, good people, but it adds up and my clients are not a big company like Microsoft. See for yourselves, do the two Mikes not look virtually identical. Justice demands..." I certainly can't predict the ruling, but then again, IANAL. And so, good citizens of Poserville, I must adjourn until/unless someone comes up with something other than more lashes for this poor equine. Use my bandwidth wisely.

P.S. I meant to say that although the Mike issue is academic to me, I understand people's concerns with the whole issue regarding morphed clothing.

Oh, crap....I had to go to Trinidad for two days, and, now, can't find the stupid thread where we get the answers....and, WOW...I missed so much...I can't read all this, although, I am interested. Depa...thanks for sharing this idea with the whole community. I have used the mover a time or two, but, have had some instances of getting errors.

Poppi, Yeah that's why we're working on the new app, regardless of the newest interpetation of the policies. Still can be useful I'm sure, and probably safe to use it if you're not sure of where your item would stand with DAZ ya know :) Oh and hope you had a good trip. Tom

Have they given the new policies, yet? I am trying to find them. Or, do I have to go to PoserPros, or someplace to read the "real" Daz stance? Trip was okay...nothing to write home about. Just hot, and, I did work. Trinidad isn't really all that special...maybe 20 years ago, or so...it has more crime than we do here, and, did i mention it was very hot? glad to be back in florida. now, just wish i could find that thread...link? did chadly or anyone else actually give a definitive answer? i am jet lagged...and, i am just seeing alot about poser 5...can't find the daz link...help, if you can!!!

The new policies are the same as the old policies with grey areas left wide open and a nice little hint of a threat left in that they are going to look again at the subject once Russel's app is ready. Almost no straight answers just a few hints that "it's ok while we're feeling magnanimous" and a lot of obfuscation. I've read the statement several times now and it's left gaping holes, half of the problem isn't addressed, there's a vague threat and a conciliatory tone plus some finger pointing at the not nice people who complained loudest. So, it ain't over yet folks. Not for a little while anyway. Oh well, it's just another day in the poser communities. What the heck. There are more fun things to do than read doublespeak and waffle and wonder about the future. To hell with it. I have better things to do than chase after smoke trails. I'll wait until Daz start jumping up and down again before commenting further. Good luck with what you're doing depakotez. It'll be interesting following development and how you address the problem. I might not like it, but I am paying attention. :)

Sorry Poppi, the statement is in the "Clarification from DAZ" thread. It's 200 odd posts deep, takes a while to load.

Yeah their new 'policy' is very gray, and open to people's slanted view on it. I agree on that. Like artical 3, that's the point of the mess and the least informative if you ask me. Of course I'm not good at reading a post that talks back on its' self so much :) Tom

Heh. I agree with you. It isn't easy. Even less so when so much of it can be interpreted anywhich way.

And, are they even fricken aware that any of us...with morph manager, and, objaction mover...could transfer all the v2, m2 morphs to v1, m1.....and SELL THEM????? forgive me...'tis the jetlag. and, the worry about my little poppi clothing pack, that i worked so hard on. and, when it is all perfect...really wanted to sell on my own...without any daz, or, anyone else telling me the automatically deserve 50%. okay...i'm gonna wade through that thread....geeze...don't we even rate our own thread? some of us have to actually work for a living, and, can't always read our bot mail.

poor poppi - get some sleep it'll be better in the morning.

"there's a vague threat and a conciliatory tone plus some finger pointing at the not nice people who complained loudest." Heh heh heh, Q. ;] Glad I'm not the only one that made that observation... "7) We also feel it is fairly obvious that a few extremely vocal people here have no sincere desire for us to address their concerns or answer their questions. " Makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Or maybe that's just gas. belch

LMAO @ Bear and Q ;) Yeah, well you're being called 'paranoid' instead of 'vocal' elsewhere. lol

Chuckle Gotta love perspectives huh? ;) Tom

"Paranoid" I'll cheerfully accept. Along with "mercenary" and all those other horrid 4-letter words. I'm NEVER "vocal" though. ;] Afterall... this is all done in text. ;]p~~~

ditzy blonde expression Aren't semantics just wunnerful? ;]

Oh yeah. Example: Article 3 ;)