"This whole thing is not an issue specifically with The Tailor; it is an issue of morph and mesh ownership and protection." Thanks, Chad. That was precisely what some very worried 3rd party clothes developers (such as myself) were afraid of. Our fear was that your very sweeping definition of an unacceptable derivative would effectively ban all 3rd party stuff that fits DAZ figures. None of us could believe that was your intention. Point 3) of your answer seems to me to be precisely the answer we've been hoping for : "We have, however, regularly allowed people to use Michael to create Michael clothes, even when those clothes compete directly with similar Michael clothes for sale at DAZ." That would be to use the figure/shape, and of course NOT the actual mesh or morphs, as I read you, Chad. Since using the figure/shape as a "mannequin" to fit new clothing on is exactly what 3rd partyers do, I will take the liberty of considering this a DAZ (informal) acceptance of using DAZ stuff as a reference, but of course not as actual raw material, when creating 3rd party stuff. Your generosity in accepting this, EVEN IF THE NEW STUFF COMPETES WITH YOURS is noted. Unnecessary, though, if 3rd partyers are guided by enlightened self-interest. Your are certainly right in pointing out that it's far easier to develop add-ons than developing the figures that are the sine qua non of the whole business. It follows logically that it is in the best interests of the 3rd partyer to avoid doing stuff that might have a negative impact (however small) on DAZ sales, and thus DAZ' desire to remain in the Poser market. I think it was Toyota's enlightened (now retired) boss who once said about selling : "We do not want to sell cars to customers. We want to establish a long-term supplier-consumer realationship to fulfil people's personal transportation needs." That's not moral high ground, that's sound, enlightened self-interest. IMHO, that is the spirit the Poser community as a whole has been operating under until now, and DAZ has been doing a lot to promote it. With Chad's above statement, I'd say we can all go back to work knowing that the spirit's still intact. And now I'll vacate the soapbox and get back to my vertex-pushing. I'm sure a lot of people were getting bored listening to my verbose worries - I know I was ;o)

Well said Thip. That certainly seems to be the spirit of this. It also means that the work of depakotez and Russel can continue un-challenged as the software becomes voluntary rather than essential. IMO that's a perfectly acceptable situation to develop in. Hopefully this huge eruption of emotion over the last few days has helped the community and Daz realise that yes, we do need to work on equal terms and consider each other. Daz have every right to protect their interests but not at the expense of the freedom of others to create UNIQUE products designed to enhance the core products of Daz itself. Perhaps though that it needs to be made clearer that Tailor is for personal use only on DAZ products and subject to license agreement on other products? That's about the only stumbling block that might re-occur. Some interesting comments in Chad's statement but I'll leave them for now as this is not the time or place to start picking on vagueries unrelated to the request and general statement. I guess this does mean that everyone can go back to doing what they do. Here's hoping that there isn't a next time.

Questor: Here Here! Thip: Your voice was the clearest of us all. Boring?...never. Sincere thanks. Chad: also my thanks. This compromise is no more no less what I expected from a company with your credentials. We may disagree a little with the interpretation of the law, but it will never be an issue with me and I don't plan to start sweating the small stuff. I've been through something like this in my own company a few years ago. I know what this sort of turmoil does to the employees and the production lines. I sympathize and wish you and all your team my very best. Again, thanks, Regards, Quixote

Hey folks, I realized that most of this stuff is pretty much a moot point with the impending arrival of Poser 5. Yesterday's sneak preview helped clinch the feeling in my mind. We still don't know all the details or an exact date. But the reality of Poser 5 is close enough that I've decided not to waste another dime on any merchandise that we see now, or until Poser 5 is released. There is a good chance that the people who create Poser products might already have a jump start on this whole thing. They may already have new Poser 5-related stuff in the works. DAZ and CuriousLabs obviously worked together in the past, and I could see how they'd continue to do the same. I'm even speculating that DAZ's recent sale might be somehow tied in with the impending arrival of Poser 5. I think all the current Millennium-related stuff will soon go the way of Posette and Dork. I haven't touched those dear old P4 characters or their supporting stuff since I got the Millennium figures. At any rate, I'm in a position where I'm doing Poser stuff as a hobby. I'd already gathered so much stuff that I forgot half of what I have. I don't need to spend another dime on this stuff. I can easily afford to save my money for the Poser 5 upgrade. I suggest you consider doing the same. Forget about these "protection utilities," Mike 1 stealing Mike 2's morphs, etc. Save your energy and your money for Poser 5.

Actually Ron, you're wrong. The arrival of Poser 5 doesn't make this a moot point, if anything it makes it more of a point because of the nature of some of what Poser 5 allegedly is offering, and Daz's still ambiguous stance on what they define as derivative. As for the millenium couple going the way of Dork and Posette. Also highly unlikely. Dork and Posette are still used by the community, you can still download new clothes and textures for them. Same with Mike and Vic. With the morphability of those two and the array of products available and planned, they aren't dying or dead yet and won't be until a vastly superior pair are released. I know there are rumours of Mike/Vic 3.0 but I'll believe that when I see it. So, forgetting about the protection utilities isn't an option, for the same reasons that the original Objaction Mover is still in use today. Having said that I intend to save up for Poser 5 as well, but I'll wait for it to arrive in a UK store before I purchase it. No way am I going to pay the extortionate shipping costs that have been asked for Poser 4, Pro Pack and the P4 upgrade. I figure that being the case I should get it about a year after everyone else. So, Poser 4 and it's issues will be very much current for myself and a few others. :) Nevertheless, Chad's statement is reassuring and I'll take up any ambiguities in different threads that are intended to address them if I feel that I might be affected by them.

Questor, again we'll disagree, in a civil manner. I haven't had a need or desire to mess with Posette or Dork since getting Millennium figures. I got tired long ago of all the frailties of the P4 bodies twisting and breaking each time I tried to use a "conservative pose," etc. The Millennium Figures have a wealth of resources to the point where I never wish I had something for them that P4 figures have. In fact, since I got the Millennium figures, half of my collection of Poser-related CD's went into a bottom drawer where it remains unused, and uninstalled. I do believe we'll see a whole new batch of stuff in Poser 5 itself which could well eliminate the need for things like programs that duplicate or mimic a figure's morphs. It also appears we won't need to buy separate hair just to make our figures look realistic, etc. It also appears the default Poser 5 figures might be as good or better quality than the current Millennium figures. I don't see a need to buy anything more for the current version of Poser, since I long ago reached the point where I just couldn't keep up with what I already had. That's another reason I dumped my P4-related stuff.. Just too much. Poser couldn't handle all that stuff. I don't care if Poser 5 doesn't arrive for several months. I can easily just use what I have and never miss anything. The only way this current concern about morphing clothes affects me now is if I wanted to distribute "Tailored clothes." I won't. If I need clothes to fit a particular figure, I already have Tailor, and I have the new Michael Morphing Clothing pack. As for Mover, I've experienced less than 5 instances where Mover has been necessary for me. Most of those were Free Stuff items. I can't recall one commercial product I've bought that required Mover. But then I'm absent-minded too. I sympathize with your situation in England. I'd hate to pay all those extra expenses. Frankly I doubt I'd ever see Poser here in Maine (USA). In so many ways this is still a pretty "backwards" state. Heck, we don't even have computer user's groups here, and it appears I'm probably the only Poser user in Maine... So when the time comes I'll do an online purchase.

I disagree with your assessment of the figures. I and a lot of other people use Posette and dork a lot as "stock" figures in a render. For filling empty spaces, populating a scene and general ducks in a stall posette and dork are excellent. Mike and Vic are central characters because of their versatility. As you say yourself, there's so much stuff available that it's not really logical to write it off. For instance, Poser 3 has been given away free on a magazine disk, this resulted in a renewed demand for Poser 3 compatible people and items. Poser 4 will go the same way. Some people will stick with it regardless, most likely because they can't afford the system upgrade to use Poser 5 and low end systems that struggle a bit with P4 now will choke to death on P5. As for the default P5 figures. Hrrm. When I see one without a texture map on it and posed and I knew where they came from, I'll make a judgement there. People were very pleased with the small improvements to the P4 fem during her translation from P3, but as you know, it wasn't long before problems showed through and Eve/Azura was the result of that. As for the rest of what you say, yeah, I agree with that, including mover which I think I've used about a dozen times. As for not buying for the current version of Poser. If P5 has cloth dynamics included then P4 clothing will work in it, just about as well as it does with Tailor now - not brilliantly but acceptably. Having said that, yes, I too will be stopping my purchases but for the simple reason I am going to need to save up between 200 and 800 dollars for Poser5. :)

Hmmm, Well, that was interesting... No more informative than I would have expected, but in the light of the P5 previews, interesting. I don't care how much it costs, I want P5! If the .avi file is anything to go by even I may stand a chance at making clothes, not that my "women" are in the habit of wearing many... :) As for "bulging superheroes" I have "Massive Mike" for Mike 1. I thought about Mike 2, but I've got no use for him, and the only clothing I have is from free stuff, which I've experimented with, but I don't have a single archived render of Mike with clothing, none. I guess the interesting point here is the reference to "The Wizards of Japan" Who produce a lot of cool stuff, almost all of which is for the stock P4 characters. Even after the advent of Vicky Lores. I imagine that the stock P5 characters are rather advanced, possibly more so that V&M 1/2. Everyone who buys P5 will get them "free", and the ability to build clothes for them easily. If Daz are having a hissy fit about people not making clothes freely available for the models thay sell, I image people will dump them for models thay can clothe. Especially if they have to work out how to use mover first. I've been doing this for 20+ years, I'm capable of taking the counter-intuitive step. But I've also taught newbies which side of the floppy is which, and how to use a mouse. So unless the mover program is simple "fire & forget" tool that a grown-up of 40 can use, (as the child of five will outwit them every time...) Then it's doomed to failure, or at best, marginal success. People like me will use it, just as I've used mover in the past, even if finding the seed object is a bitch! :) But the bulk of people who make up the forums, "the community" will move quietly to the P5 figures, just as they moved from Posette to Vicky in the past. It won't happen overnight, but it will happen. P5 changes the competitive landscape. Making it more complex to use "legacy" materials is a retrograde step IMO. Only one thing is certain, the one that produces the prettiest eye candy wins.... Got to go home now and resurrect my laptop (AGAIN!) Fucking XP Pro, Bag O'Shite, P5 Does hair and clothing that moves! Yaaay! :P "Move along, move along, nothing to see here" later jb

thanks, thip...for being clear. i was out of town for a couple days....and, my little v2 wardrobe counts alot, to me. because i worked hard in my freetime to create it. why did chad's remarks not have a thread of their own? why is it still more legal to use morph manager to transfer all v2's or m2's tot he lores versions...or just to v1 and m1, and sell using objaction mover? so many questions...so glad daz isn't dying to possess my little poppi millenium wardrobe, it i can get the time to finish it..... ron...i really don't think they wanted to steal your freestuff items, either. keep good, Poppi :*)

I never worried that anyone wanted to steal my Free Stuff Items. Hell, I'm just putting out my first bumbling attempts at characters, along with some clothes to enhance their appeal. However, yes, I remain concerned about potential violations of copyrights. And I would not risk the possibility that DAZ would sue me. Hell no. This stuff isn't that important. Each of us has different needs when it comes to using Poser, computers etc. Some of you obviously use "crowd scenes," and lo-res characters are good for that. I frankly don't do many crowd scenes. If I did, I'd trot out the old archaic characters, probably. However, that is not the same as keeping them in the "first ranks." You probably won't waste much money on Dork and Posette. You won't buy the latest P4 fashions, etc. I have no serious business-related needs. I don't do crowds. I already have more "millennium stuff" than I can keep track of or use. This is the time for me to stop spending money on Poser stuff and start saving for the Poser 5 upgrade. Then when I have Poser 5, I'll make an even greater effort to learn everything it has to offer before I consider spending another dime on "goodies."

Thanks for your feedback everyone. And thank you for the obvious efforts so many of you are making to discuss these issues in a way that actually promotes understanding. It is very appreciated, as well as conducive to the further constructive exchange of ideas. We also appreciate your concern for upholding license agreements and copyright, and for your general desire to work within a system that allows for developers ownership and protection rights to be maintained.

Just for the record, dishonest people will always look for loopholes or they will outright take what they want. At DAZ, we know that our survival in this market depends primarily on promoting the necessary education for honest people to be honest, especially at times like this when questions arise.

It seems that many of you have raised the question of what constitutes a derivative model or morph, so Ill try to address that here. And I'll be posting this message in other locations Im aware of where these questions have been asked. Its also been pointed out that in my efforts to be thorough and accurate in representing DAZ I can tend to sound like a lawyer. I will try to be as plain as possible without sacrificing the accuracy.

With that in mind, I thought that maybe I should look up the dictionary definition of the word derivative. I wont post my findings here, but feel free to look it up yourself. The common thing I found in all of the possible meanings of the word derivative is that a derivative always requires an original. By definition, something that requires something else in order to be created is a derivative of that something else.

So, on to talking about 3D stuff...

A morph target or a mesh is owned by its original creator.

If it is an original morph or original mesh (such as DraXs Musclebound Michael morph or Bloodsongs Dragon Factory model), then this morph/mesh is owned entirely by its creator. The owner of the model (DAZ in the case of Musclebound Michael) does not have any say in the usage of someones original morph for that model. This is, of course, provided that its usage does not infringe upon the rights of the model creator somehow (such as distributing the Musclebound Michael product as an OBJ rather than as a delta set which requires the Michael OBJ).

If it is a derivative morph or a derivative mesh (such as the Muscular morph on Stephanie or Torinos Eve model), then this morph/mesh is owned partially by the creator of the derivative work and partially by the creator of the work from which it was derived. This derivative morph/mesh can only be distributed in one of two ways: (1) under terms agreed to by both creators, or (2) in such a way that the derivative morph does not circumvent the need for the end user to already have the morph or model from which it was derived. (You may note that the Eve model, a derivative of the Posette model, is distributed as an encrypted file such that it requires the ownership of the original mesh.)

And with that groundwork, let me answer a few specific questions that are representative of many.

1. I have just a small example in mind, If I made a coat for Vicki or Mike It could be taken as a mesh derivate work? no matter if the entire geometry is different?

It could be. It depends on how you made the coat. It will be a derivative mesh if you could not have made it in the same way without using the other partys model (Vicki or Mike in your example). If it is a derivative, as most clothing item models are, then you will either need to distribute it in such a way that it requires the end user to already own the original model, or you will need an agreement on terms for distribution with the owner of the original model. If the owner of the original model is DAZ, you may rest assured that your agreement with DAZ is already in place. We have always allowed the distribution of such clothing models, even when those clothes compete directly with similar clothes for sale at DAZ. I cannot speak for the positions that other model owners may take.

1. You say you have allowed people to Use Michael to make clothing... you're certainly not meaning that they can cut up the OBJ file and make clothing, are you? Or are you saying that people can use michael as a template over which to draw new geometries not extracted from the original mesh?

Correct, and thanks for pointing out the distinction. Derivative models that directly incorporate parts of another persons model are always prohibited. DAZ is drawing the distinction only for derivative add-on products that use a DAZ mesh for fitting purposesas a template.

1. The Tailor does not in anyway copy any mesh from your characters and apply them to clothing. It stretches the mesh of the target to approximate the dial settings of the source character and creates a cr2 that can only be applied to the exact same target item whether on the creators machine or on the machine of someone that they have passed the cr2.

Correct. And this situation is not specific to The Tailor; many applications do similar things. No one is implying that rights to the original mesh are being challenged here. As you point out, the end user is still required to possess the target mesh. Rather, the rights to original morphs are being challenged. As a result, when the derivative files are distributed they must either be done so in a way that is either approved of by the original creator or in a way that requires the end user already has the original work in order to use the derivative files.

1. Why, with this concern, are you selling a clothing package for $14.97 that will permit anyone with Michael one to make him look like Michael 2? Are you yourselves by selling this package circumventing the need for peopleto buy Michael 2?

Yes, we are circumventing that need for some people. However, as the owner of the original data this is our prerogative. Again, anyone can make an agreement with someone else which modifies his own copyright and license agreement. You may also have noticed that many people (including us at DAZ) regularly create derivative models and morphs from their own products that may well compete with the product from which they are derived. Of course, it is the sole right of the owner of the original work to do this.

I hope this additional information and clarification about derivative works is helpful to everyone. And I hope it didnt sound too much like incomprehensible legalese. Thanks again for your patience and understanding.

In closing, I hope to be home and in bed as soon as possible, and DAZ will be out of the office tomorrow for the Fourth of July. I hope that this message provides some useful information in the meantime.

Sincerely,
Chad Smith
DAZ Productions

Thanks Chad. More stuff to read and decipher and pull to pieces letter by letter until we discover the secret subliminal messages that you and the CIA mind control spooks are placing in your messages. smirk OK, seriously, that helps some sorta towards clearing a couple of things up. Have a good 4th of July. You'll excuse me as being a lousy Brit we don't celebrate such things so I'll carry on as normal. :) I confess I'm most interested in (3) again, because this seems to be a turnaround from your earlier stance on Tailor altered clothing. But, for now I'll read it properly before commenting.

Sometimes, before you've had your morning coffee, you look up and notice that little pieces of the sky are falling. But when you look closer you discover that it's only dandruff.

"4) Why, with this concern, are you selling a clothing package for $14.97 that will permit anyone with Michael one to make him look like Michael 2? Are you yourselves by selling this package circumventing the need for peopleto buy Michael 2? Yes, we are circumventing that need for some people. However, as the owner of the original data this is our prerogative. Again, anyone can make an agreement with someone else which modifies his own copyright and license agreement. You may also have noticed that many people (including us at DAZ) regularly create derivative models and morphs from their own products that may well compete with the product from which they are derived. Of course, it is the sole right of the owner of the original work to do this." My only concern here is relative to those who had wished to give away Tailor-modified clothing. At this point, I doubt anything I do for freebies is "good enough" to be sold commercially. Therefore an exclusive brokering agreement with DAZ doesn't seem appropriate or desirable to DAZ. I'd hoped to enhance the desirablilty of my custom-made free characters by providing free Tailored clothing such as a bodysuit, shirt and pants. In the end I fear my freebies will no longer be offered because I currently don't think I'm ready to "go commercial." Ron