Hi everyone, I know really I should ba asking this question on a different board, but since it crops up just down the page, and the answer might well influence people on this board, I'm asking it here. Having rushed out and bought a copy of Digit to get my free copy of XFrog 3.02 (as described below), I've now run into what appears to be the fatal flaw, unless perhaps any experienced XFrog users can enlighten me otherwise. The problem is, you don't seem to be able to export anything when you've made it - all the export options are greyed out, and in the mag is says you need to upgrade to the 3.5 Lite version to be able to export in normal 3D file formats. There are plug-ins on the CD for exporting to Lightwave, C4D, 3DS Max and Maya, but if you haven't got any of these, you've had it. To increase the frustration I've got C4D version 6, and the plug-in only works from version 7 onwards. So: is it possible to get things out of XFrog and into Vue? How did people who had this version originally cope with this? Is there a Vue plug-in one can download somewhere? I must say if it turns out that you can't export from this version to anything else, I think it's a bit naughty of Greenworks (and indeed Digit) to promote it as a full version on the cover. I'll reserve judgement on them until somebody posts an answer though. Mike

Easy export 3ds and import into Vue.

Unless of course you can't export anything therefore you got a crippleware version and there is indeed a catch. See I told ya man FREE is a four letter word.

If I do remember correctly, Xfrog version 3.02 does have export for wavefront obj unless they cripple it for this 'free' version. That's how I mangage earlier to get things done in Xfrog and have Vue rendered them. I do have 3.5 now but I have to warn you people that the security protection is something most people would not like...that's...well much like Poser 5, you have to get a new key each time you reinstall.

I knew there was a reason that I didn't want to buy that program. No thanks. I'll pass......Poser 5 is like that too? Good I'll pass on that one too..... Lock ma how much cash I'm saving !!!!!!!!! If everyone just said no they'd stop......

I said no... Sure hope Vue does not go that route too, or I'll have to say no to them too when the next upgrade comes out. Would be interested to hear further if this magazine verison has any export capability. If not, I'll quit hunting for it. jon

Attached Link: http://www.xfrogdownloads.com/greenwebNew/support/supportStart.htm

You could see if there is anything here that will work. I'd be very interested to know if you figure it out. Rich

Something cool there in that if you click on the pluggin link you can actually download the 3dmax pluggin. Now will it work in the mag version. I don't know I don't have the mag here. There is also limits on 3ds format in that there using the old one. That says you can only have 65335 polys and any textures got to use the old 6.3 naming convention. You know think dos. plntl.3ds. Those funny file names. It says that it will break big meshes up to smaller sets if it has to so you'd have to import all the sets one at a time them reassemble the mesh in Vue. Simple really. Now does it work with the meg version? Somebody give it a try. I'm not going to hold my breath. I think everyone has been mislead. There is always a catch. That's a expensive program I can't see them giving a previous verion away for free. Things like that don't happen usually.

Attached Link: http://www.xfrogdownloads.com/greenwebNew/gallery/galleryStart.htm

I have to say that Xfrog is a very good modeling program and pretty straight forward, yet unique in its own way. Take some getting use too though especially working in the parameter editor. Most people would love the program. Check out the gallery and see the wide range of stuff you can do with it. I'm not a modeler but fooling with this program, you sure to come off with something you would like :) Works beautifully with Vue, that I must say!

My opinion but it's just me. X Frog is really cool alright. A little hard to learn. It's too expensive IMHO. The meshes are too big and the part that makes them small costs more when it should be included with the full version for free, My money is on Z Brush. Blows it away......

"A little hard to learn."...well, if you ask me...LOL!...I will say its hard to learn actually, especially controlling it in what you want to do specifically but than again...look at their Plant library...what those Xfrog expert can do...wooohooo! "It's too expensive"...it is for hobbyist like most of us but if you are into modelling for bread, its worth it. :..meshes are too big and the part that makes them small costs more"...this I certainly agreed. Xtune should have been an integrated module. Love to own ZBrush 1.5 what what it claim it can do but can't afford it now...most of the $s just gone to DAZ3d Platinum clud stuff...LOL! Okay, I'm outta here before I get a red card warning for "OTing".

Pete You do get the plug-ins for those four high-end applications I mentioned along with the mag version. The trouble is, they have to go in the plug-ins folder of those applications, so then you can import an X-frog model from within 3DS Max, C4D, Lightwave and Maya. It doesn't appear to mean that you can export a 3ds file just by having that plug-in, you need to have 3d studio max itself. If you've got one of those apps I'm sure it will work fine. Unfortunately I don't so I haven't yet found a way of exporting anything. Mike

Tesign would be the guy to ask cause he's got the program. If those pluggins are for those applications and not X frog. Well that's kind odd isn't it? How many programs around that do odd things like that. The industry standard right now is you make your program work with everyone elses not the other way around. If that's the way it is it's really not worth it. Think of it how many programs are out there that can import 3d max files. How much is 3d max worth. As for Tesign's bread and butter um my take in that is Onxy Tree is a better way to go cause the meshes are way way smaller, leaves are in you garden, and go look at the gallery there. You can make some cool trees there and the program is dead simple. Lots of programs out there that can make cool meshes but if the resulting size is too big there kind of pointless. Optimizing them is part of the programmers job and no not a add on it should be a standard tool.

Hi Mike,

I'm sorry that you bought the magazine only to see that export to 3ds or obj formats is "greyed out". Please accept my apologies. I had wrong information about this free release of Xfrog, so my annoucement was inaccurate.
We had so many "true" free softwares in magazines lately (Poser 3, Vue 2, Amapi 4, Truespace 1, Cinema 4D 5, etc...), that I never suspected that this version of Xfrog didn't include export to "polygon" formats.

Pete, the plugin system is not "odd" at all. It allows the host software to recognize directly the Xfrog format instead of using the awful obj/3ds/dxf import formats. It's the most efficient way of using 2 softwares (VUE 4 recognize the pz3 format with this system). Files are small and imported "intact" in the host application. Xfrog procedural models have an approximate size of 5 to 15 Kb, so the resulting size is not "too big"...

:) Eric

"those pluggins are for those applications and not X frog. Well that's kind odd isn't it"...just my opinion Pete, I think this is a much better way with regards to better compatibility. The usual obj/3ds/dxf import formats from each individual do have problem sometime. Take an example I have experience with Billy-T bike models. It is make up of many parts (figure) to customize the bike you want...saving it as a Pz3 works ok most of the time but export as obj or 3ds from Poser, Vue has problem importing it. Another good example is with 3D Studio Max...most model exported from Maxs as 3ds file has high risk of "expolded" model issue when imported by Bryce or Vue, especially if the model has 500 seperate parts or more. To solve this problem, Max has a plugin made by Okino PolyTrans that has to be installed in Max plugin folder. Anything exported from Max PolyTrans works beautifully from obj....3ds..etc. Why?...well, I believe that the integration are much better this way and if I'm not wrong, PolyTrans may have to pay Max to have ths made and e-on too has to pay CL for that Pz3 import capability. If I'm correct, Right Hemisphere Deep Exploration adopted the same thing for Max stuff, that there is a seperate plugin needed to be installed in Max plugin. Like audity mentioned, it allows the host software to recognize directly the program use to create it, in this case, very compatible. Anout Onxy Tree, if you are into making profit modeling from it, I think you can't. It happened to the product "3D Forest". Their policy may have change but I doubt. Onxy Tree and Xfrog cannot be compare in a "apple to apple" situation, indeed both does tree but the emphasis of species type is Xfrog claim and also Xfrog can be use more for just trees and foilages. We had a Vue user did a crab and jelly fish out of it....LOL!...and me "alien birds" :) the best thing about Xfrog is that youcan create highly detail realistic tree species and kind and selll it...it does not have the "sticky" policy that Onxy Tree has. Xfrog tune was made to reduce the poly count for that same high count ones so that, these 'adjusted' lower count poly model can be use as "realtime" or distance "fill in" where detail close up is not required in a scene. Steve aka DigReal from Big-i is one such example that uses Xfrog to create his very detail tree for sale at Lyne site...I think. Anyway, Greenworks should not have crippled the obj and 3ds export format...they might as well do the same to the rest.I believe the mast majority user uses obj and 3ds more than any other 'monopolizing' high end program format...surely it sucks!

Good Morning . . . 8^) Just a quick message for Tesign & MightyPete, in your posts on this thread you sounded like you had negative feelings about, having to have a new key or serial number each & every time you have to install or re-install a software program, used as it's security protection. Also, I believe you both stated you had desires for owning Zbrush 1.5. Well, not to bust your bubbles or anything like that, but I've had Zbrush for almost 2 years now & that's exactly the type of security protection they use for Zbrush! During the first 1 & years of use the serial # continually expired. So you couldn't use it until you e-mailed Zbrush to obtain a new, ( different ) one, each & every time. When the year 2002 occurred, Zbrush quit working for all users & you had to e-mail for a new serial # to use Zbrush. Now they have the new 1.5 version out for almost 2 months now & serial #'s have expired once again. So, if you do purchase Zbrush, this is something your going to have to put up with. Every single time you re-install Zbrush, for what ever reason, your going to have to e-mail for a new "security protection" serial #. One final point I might mention, there have been several posts on their forum about Zbrush using, " 100% " of your processor power continually while Zbrush is open. Myself & several others have complained to Pixologic about this problem, but they won't admit to this being any type of a bug or problem. All you have to do is open Zbrush & do nothing more, & your processor is running at 100%, more than any other software I've ever used. One user has complained that he was using Zbrush on his Athlon powered laptop, & when ever Zbrush was open, even just sitting there doing nothing, his laptop started getting red hot, after about 10 minutes, due to the 100% processor usage. But Pixologic still claims there are no bugs or problems with their software. Anyway, just thought I'd throw this tad of information your way, & you guys have a good one . . . Mark ;^) PS: ( IMHO, I think $400.00 is a little too much to spend for Zbrush, for what it will do. )

"...e-mail for a new serial # to use Zbrush"....gulp! "Every single time you re-install Zbrush, for what ever reason, your going to have to e-mail for a new "security protection" serial #.".....Oh NO! "Zbrush using, " 100% " of your processor power continually while Zbrush is open"...Oh my gosh!..and dual means 200%! "...not to bust your bubbles"...no, its not busted yet, but it EXPLODED! Thanks for that "tad" of info Mark,I think I wait for "YBrush" to come around someday :)

Well, the feeling I'm getting is that nobody knows how to export from this version of XFrog to anything we can use directly in Vue. Maybe there's some trick I'm completely missing here, but I don't think so. Greenworks have obviously implemented a more normal export option in the latest version (by popular demand maybe?), but I don't think I want to pay 99 to upgrade to it. I shall have to just hang on to this one until I can afford to upgrade to C4D 7 or 8! I can't help feeling this is a very strange choice for a freebie to give away on a cover disk though. Surely the whole point is to increase usage of the current version by giving away a usable free older version so that people can put their XFrog models into whatever program they normally use; restricting export to only four high-end apps rather defeats the object, and I can't see it endearing them to people in the US who are forking out the equivalent of 20 quid a copy for the mag! And let's face it: people who already have the latest versions of Maya etc. are hardly going to be strapped for cash; they're the sort of people who will already have XFrog if they want it. Oh well, you live and learn, eh? Mike

I agree with you MandK. I sent a message to the magazine in case they were unaware of the lack of ability to export. When I downloaded the XFrog demo from greenworks site I was able to build models and export them to common 3d formats (.3ds, .lwo, .obj)for 30 days, so that's probably the better way to go, if it's still available. Then you can try importing them into Vue. That way you can see if you think you would use it enough to make it worth your while to buy the full or lite version.

Hi Mandk, my name is Orio, and you are the guy you're looking for. LOL :-) You will find my name on both manuals. Yes, Vue4 and Xfrog :-) Vue 4, I'm in the final Aknowledgements list, because I am an oldtime Vue maniac who was on the beta testing crew for version 4, and previously I founded the Yahoo list, which now I co-moderate with Guitta since January 2000. Vue is in fact the only rendering application I use, and when I discovered it in 1999 I dropped use of Bryce immediately (I know this will make happy some of the most "competitive" Vue users here) ;-) Xfrog, because modeling for Xfrog is how I pay my rent and food it's over two years now. I am the guy behind most of the trees you find in the Greenworks libraries (besides, the "other guy" is also a Vue user, Walli, he's the wizard of the plants and flowers)

To use Xfrog trees in Vue, was the main reason that pushed me to first get in touch with Greenworks (Xfrog producers). For me, Xfrog trees HAD to work in Vue, in the first place, because Vue was and always will be my renderer of choice, and I have no intention to give it up for no other renderer in the world!

So I want to assure you, Xfrog trees DO work perfectly in Vue. You can export them as OBJ or 3DS. I recommend 3DS because it is MUCH faster.
I have made many pictures that I could show you, but my web site is still to be done. However, as a simple proof that Xfrog trees work in Vue, please check the attached picture. It is a rendering of the Date Palm that I modeled for the Greenworks Fruit trees library. There is nothing around it except a basic desert, 'cause I didn't have time for a full scene then. Yet it should be enough to show you that Xfrog trees work in Vue, and indeed work well.
I personally find Xfrog trees to integrate very well together with the existing Vue vegetation. I hope to be able soon to have my gallery online, so to have more examples to show.

As for the demo version of Xfrog that came with that magazine, I do not have an "official" point of view to share, because I am not part of Greenworks, I am only an external collaborator, so I know very little, if nothing at all, about the company's marketing and management etc. I'm basically a hard working man, I work deep in the "mine", which is... my home studio and computer, lol!... hours and hours modeling stuff, or writing tree cards information about the trees.

What I can tell you FOR SURE, is that if you want to try out the export from Xfrog, you just have to download the 30 days demo from the Greenworks site. This will let you use the FULL application for 30 days.

Really there is no "bad joke" from Greenworks about the demo of the magazine. This is how I see it: you can download the 30 days demo, and export from it everything you want, everywhere. But sometimes 30 days are not enough to fully explore an application. Maybe you install it, then the day after you have to leave town for work for two weeks... you know how it goes. It happened to me more than one time in the past!
So here's out the non-saving demo comes handy! Because, you can start on it, until you figure out the things. THEN, you can install the 30 days demo of version 3.5 (which by the way will be more up to date, because version 3.02 does lack some components), and have 30 days to fully try out whatever export you like!
And after the 30 days demo is expired, if you are still uncertain about buying or not, you arenot left without Xfrog at all: you still have the magazine demo, which will never expire, to play with the program as long as you need to make up your mind!

So really, on the contrary, I think it was very fair from Greenworks to provide TWO ways of demo testing Xfrog: a permanent non-save version, and a 30 days full version. Then you can decide for your best how to use those two choices!

I mean... you can't expect Greenworks to just give away a full permanent Xfrog! :-) LOL

For whatever question, etc. you can IM me or look for me on the Xfrog forum here at Rosity, so not to abuse the Vue forum with off topic subjects.
I am VERY sensible about the Vue-Xfrog integration, because really my 3D world "orbitates" around three software:
VUE - as main application
XFROG - for all additional vegetation and also non-vegetation modeling (yes I do make architecturals with Xfrog!)
POSER - for human and animal models
These only three applications are all I need to be happy forever with 3D! :-)

Cheers, fellow Vuers! :-)

Orio

Sorry for the typo... I of course meant that I am the guy you're looking for ;-)

Hi Orio, I've installed X-frog and had a bit of a play with it last night. I really liked it and will seriously consider buying it once I get paid. But and here is the big but I do feel like I've been had. The front cover or Digit said "Free Full Software X-Frog worth 150" or words to that effect. It was only on opening shrink wrap on the magazine after I bought it that I discovered that in fact it was only useful if I had recent versions of four programs which I don't have. Digit also says "Pixel 3D Studio 3.7 free software worth 400" and doesnt mention thats it can only be used on a Mac - the only OS mentioned on the CD is PC. The magazine cover is deceptive through ommision rather than telling a lie. I would hope that neither of the software vendors is reponsible for the behaviour of Digit. That behavious makes them look bad by association though. If the magazine had said "Free Full Software Greenworks Xfrog 3.0.2 For Cinema 4D v7, Maya, LightWave and 3DS Max v4 worth 150 (PC)" and "Pixel 3D Studio 3.7 (Mac)" I would feel less like Digit had pulled the wool over my eyes. This is the first time in 20 years I have bought a magazine where I felt I had been deceived about what was on the cover CD. I know that sometimes the software wont be great or that its an old version. However the feeling I'm left with is that I've been had. In marketing perception is ultimately the only thing that maters so this is poor marketing as people who have been had are far less likely to trust a company. Like I said earlier - I'll probably buy X-frog but if the packaging on Digit had been more honest I think I'd probably be saying I'd definitly be buying it. Cheers Mark

Mark, I'll report this to Greenwors, as I don't even have that magazine (I don't buy magazines usually). If really Digit has claimed that it was a Full Version of Greewnorks what was distributed, then obviously there is a fault there, and i think you can also ask for a refund of the price of that magazine. I really think that, if true, this doesn't have to do with Greenworks, which has zero interest in the magazine selling more copies at the expense of Greenworks' reputation! I am inclined to think that, if there was fault, this must be on the side of those who published a magazine with a false description of the content. Anyway I am forwarding Greenworks heads to this thread. I will let you know when I know something more. Orio

Orio, Thanks for taking the time. I'm not really looking for a refund just concernted about how Digit damages potential relationships between software vendors and consumers in order to increase its circulation. A number of other magazines give free software - that was how I first got to try Vue, Poser, Paint Shop Pro, Page Plus and a variety of other packages that I have bought full versions of. The other magazines seem just a bit more honest about the version that is being sold having weaknesses compared to the current main release. Cheers Mark

Hi Orio Mark has got it exactly right. If the front of the mag had said 'XFrog demo' or 'XFrog full version which will only export to Lightwave etc.' then it would have been OK. Seeing the words Full Version does sort of lead you to believe that you're getting a version which you can use to export to other programs. What I would like to know is whether that particular version of XFrog (3.02) actually had that export capability originally, and if it's been removed especially for this version. If that's the case, it's very naughty of Digit to claim it's the full commercial version. Or did it just export to those programs for which a plug-in was available even then? I suspect the former, because the export commands are there in the menu, they're just greyed out so you can't use them. I must say, as a promotional exercise this so far seems a bit of a disaster, in that the Digit mag message board is also full of people asking why they can't export. So instead of turning people on to XFrog (which in fairness looks a pretty nice program and capable of some excellent results) it seems to have generated lots of frustrated people! As I said on the XFrog board, it seems an odd way of going about it: anybody who has any of those four programs isn't going to be exactly poor, and if they want XFrog they will presumably have bought it already rather than wait for a free version to turn up; whereas hobbyists like me who only spend the odd hour here and there doing 3D and can't justify spending hundreds of pounds on programs would really appreciate the free version and then might consider buying the latest one. Perhaps they ought to take lessons from Maxon who gave away C4D 5 on a cover disk not long ago and then had an unrefusable offer on C4D XL 6 to follow it up. I've enjoyed every minute of using that one! Of course an ideal solution would be for Digit to give away a copy of Lightwave on their next cover disk so we could all use XFrog. Failing that though, maybe Greenworks could be persuaded to post a patch or a plug-in somewhere so that we could export to something a bit cheaper. Time to stop dreaming and go to bed! Mike

Attached Link: Read the specific thread at the Xfrog forum

Hi, Stewart McSherry, product manager for Greenworks, wrote me a note about the Xfrog demos. I have published it in the Xfrog forum so we can move the discussion over there and let this forum for Vue debate only. The link to the Xfrog forum thread is attached. Before I leave this thread, I wanted to shortly address one of the topics that I did not comment earlier. Something that is important that does not pass uncommented, because it exposes a wrong belief. It is really an unjustified name, that Xfrog produces only big models. It produces models as you model them! If you model them big, they are big, if you model them small, they are as small as you want them. Please check this picture I just published in the Vue gallery: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=266310&Start=1&Sectionid=3&WhatsNew=Yes it features my pear trees with fruits. The adult model weights 232,474 polygons which is less than the max. size of the average walnut tree that comes with Vue4 (250,000). The cherry tree of Vue4 is 350,000 poly average. And none of them has 3D fruits, while all the pears in my tree (and there are MANY!) are not alpha planes, but full 3D models! Without the fruits, my adult pear weights 111,419 polygons, less than the average maples. I attach the screen grab from Xfrog of the pear model young age. Again, all pear fruits are 3D. It weights 113,735 polygons which is again, lower than the average maples in Vue. Without the fruits, my young pear would weight 64,390 polygons, which means, about the size of the smallest trees in Vue4! And if I wanted, I could have made them smaller again, without any problem! For any question about Xfrog trees, please do not write here, but refer to the Xfrog forum instead. Thanks - Orio