Ever since I have become hooked on Poser 4 (now 5) I have become aware that if it were not for the DAZ characters I would have dumped Poser from my system a long time ago. The characters in Poser 4 look stupid and Don & Judy in Poser 5 are simply a waste of space on my hard drive. Maybe DAZ will come up with a Mike III and Victoria III soon. That sure will knock the crap out of Don and Judy. Reb

Daz is working on V3. They haven't given us a time frame yet. I'd assume Mike 3 (and Steff 3) are later on down the road, but they haven't said anything about that. Don's not that bad, but Judy is a bit creepy.

I agree.. If it wasn't for DAZ I would have dumped poser a long time ago. I'm using P5. The truth is I like don.. he's not too bad. I've been using Don more than mike.... but Judy.. Sorry CL. She's doesn't seem to have as many morphs. or polygons.. Personally I think that CL should be paying DAZ for the face room. Becuase if it wasn't for DAZ CL would not be around to day. With out the Vicky and Mike charecters.. poser is just a toy.

DAZ has confirmed that they are hard at work on a Vicky 3. Don't know about Mike 3, though. If I remember correctly, Mike 2 was released about one year after Vicky 2, so if they stick to that schedule, he's far away in a distant future. Another factor to take into this is DAZ's ongoing work on their own Poser-like application, nobody knows how that affects Vicky 3 and a possible Mike 3...

However one must think if not for CL (formerly metacreation maker of Poser 1,2,3) who's characters were made by Zygote (now DAZ) there would be no Millenium characters (Vic, Mike, Steph) which mean CL help to evolve DAZ which help to evolve CL which keeps us all addicted to POSER by CL (formerly Metacreation) and buying from DAZ (formally ZYGOTE) so all n all chicken = egg, egg = chicken we wouldn't be where we are without both my thought for the Day IOSILVR

stallion:- you have been cheating by paying attention!

Why would I need another Poser-like application?

So which is the chicken and which is the egg? Bill

Uhm..... DAZ would not be where it is today if it were not for it's customer base, and I think Dan Farr would be the first to agree. If you've ever seen Vicki 1 "out of the box" then you'll agree she's certainly not the prettiest girl on the block, Posette's got a much prettier face. In fact if you go through old threads, if it were up to alot of people, Vicki wouldn't even have been used, but for her improved joints. The user base morphed her up and made her looks halfway decent. Vicki 2 came out long afterward. Let's not make heros out of anyone, the higher you make that pedestal, the harder they fall when they disappoint and 6 months from now it could be DAZ that is being raked over the coals so thoroughly. DAZ is a company that produces fine models, that is very true, but making Poser what it is today? I think not, you can thank the Poser Veterans for that (a few of who coincidentally now work for DAZ). Just my 2 cents.......

Hear, hear. I think the technical term for V1 out of the box is "butt ugly."

While I have never seen Vicky out of the box, I still stick with what I said. If it had not been for the DAZ figures I would have dumped Poser from my system a long time ago. I did not see Metacreations improve their p-4 man or woman......it took DAZ to do that for them. As for a DAZ program (if there is a program) I hope they are successful. When there is competition there is progress. While I realize that CL is using everyone to perfect their poser product for them, the introduction of a second poser like product will force them to improve their product on their own.

The P4Man and Woman (Posette and Dork) ARE DAZ (formerly a division of Zygote) models drafter69..... licensed from Zygote/DAZ. They do not belong to CL. Don and Judy OTOH do belong to CL, and I think they probably will be improved down the road. As I said, not very many of these models are very pretty out of the box, and require quite a bit of TLC to make them customizeable (sp?). As far as DAZ's application goes, competition is always good, there's no doubt. I hope you remember these accolades if you experience any problems the software.

I understand V3 will be out before Christmas(hopefully), M3 will follow. I understand The Daz "Program" will come out as a plugin?, (I'm not sure of the term), and the full program will follow. Don't rush them(Daz), I'd rather wait and get a program/figure that works.

Why would I need another Poser-like application?

You may not Mosca, but the much needed competition is long overdue.

drafter69, please note that the P4 woman and P4 man were made by Zygote, not Metacreations. And the Zygote division that did it is now... DAZ! The symbiosis between CL and DAZ has proven to be extremely productive and beneficial to the Poser community, no doubt about that. Who is the chicken and who is the egg is a hypothetical question, but the truth is that CL would not have been where it is today without DAZ and vice versa.

Daz is the only place you can buy Poser products and return them if you don't like them. They have the very best customer service on the internet. Who cares how Vicky 2 came about, shes wonderful and so are the Mil girls. The baby still lacks. If it wasn't for Daz I would have more money. LOL, but now with the club. This will help alot.

Cross posted with Judith :-)

"Let's not make heros out of anyone..." applauds wildly

applauds Judith wildly right along with x2000

Personally I caned DAZ, but kept Poser :)

I agree with the above thread that Judy and Don aren't very nice, but as someone else suggested perhaps they can be improved upon. Daz has definitely added much to the Poser community, who on this forum has never bought a Daz product? I wish that CL and Daz could have gone on working together, but who knows the competition may just give us a much wider range of quality extra content to choose from. When Content Paradise is up and running we'll see. . . It's hard to beleive that Victoria or Micheal 2 can be improved on, I for one can't imagine sorting through 50 more parameter dials. Some new people who aren't Vicky or Mike would be much appreciated. On my wish list for the Daz application is that at least one generation of the Millieum family be included as Daz's default figures. With the 3rd generation of Vicky and Mike coming that well may be possible.

I think the main reason for the success of Poser (IMHO) would look something like this... (give or take some slidage)... Poser Program / Ease of use = 15% Zygote / Daz Figures & Props = 32% User Created Freebies = 42% Warez Copy Usage / Word of Mouth = 12% I suspect we will see a good amount of changes to those percentages with the current version of Poser (ie, Poser 5) due to less involvement of creative content created by enities outside of CL and by the sheer amount of time that it takes CL to generate the patches necessary to make Poser 5 a stable application. Another factor that will determine the percentages will be the "Ease of Use" classification which is sure to confuse and/or hinder a percentage of the current Poser user base, as well as, how technical support is handled for that product. Content driven products for Poser 5 will certainly be affected by the current EULA that is in place for that program and will also greatly affect the sales and purchases of Poser 5. This is just an opinion, mind you. However, it is an opinion which seems to be echoed throughout this Community. Fact of the matter is this, Poser's survival has never been solely based on any one particular aspect or company. It's survival has been because of involvement of numerous entities such as Curious Labs, Egi-sys, DAZ, Edgenet/Bondware, DSI and the Community and that with the release of Poser 5, we are seeing those levels of Involvement change. The survival of any future Poser program is now going to hinge on Curious Labs, Egi-sys, the Community and, as we are beginning to play witness to, Renderosity staff. One point that I would like to clarify is a comment made by Judith who said: "Don and Judy OTOH do belong to CL, and I think they probably will be improved down the road." Don and Judy are really just Posette and Dork, which had been subdivided and worked on by an overseas company outside of DAZ, then passed on to RuntimeDNA and Community members to be morphed and tweaked. Joint Parameters, IK and Blend Zones for those characters were (to my understanding) done by CL staff. However, the meshes of Don and Judy are still Zygote/DAZ's property since they are based (solely or in part)on Zygote/DAZ's geometry of Posette and Dork. In otherwords, they are derivatives(sp?) like Michael reconstructed to make the Stephanie figure and I assume that Curious Labs got permission from DAZ to do this. Just my thoughts and opinion on this. :o) Jack

Are you sure about that Jack? If so, my apologies for posting incorrect information.

I suggest there are other percentages to take into account. There are non-Zygote/Daz, not free props and figures that deserve a percentage of credit too for Posers popularity. And Poser isn't about ease of use for all of us, it is about allowing those of us who will never be artists to have the ability to create relatively life like figures and place them into a setting. I have no other 3D program...Poser allows me to dream a little. With or without Daz (as much as I love their stuff), I would still use Poser because I can't afford the other 3d software out there. Maybe you hate the look of Don and Judy, and the poser figures, but for someone like me, with no talent of my own, they are still fascinating creations. You can laugh and make fun of me and of Poser, but the fact is, I don't have your talent or ability and Poser gives me a little bit of an opportunity to pretend to have some creativity. Try putting a percentage on that.

Judith, I am sorry to have to correct you (wasn't being malicious). But, yes, I am very sure and positive on that. :o) Jack

"Zygote (now DAZ)" Zygote is not DAZ - they are seperate companies. DAZ was a division of Zygote that is now it's own company. "Daz is the only place you can buy Poser products and return them if you don't like them." That's not actually true - but they are the bigtgest company that will do that :-) As Judith said - it's the users who made Poser into what it is - the user's interest in Vicki encouraged DAZ to continue and do better - the users who became vendors and started pushing the limits of the program - they encouraged the users to do more - want more. However - the DAZ models surely encouraged artists to continue using Poser as a full use program.

Dialyn, I agree with you that the percentages go more beyond just Freebie related items, however I should note that I pretty much lumped together the products of the online stores in with the percentage of Zygote / DAZ Figures and Props section since a majority of sellable products offered in the online stores are made as enhancements for DAZ related products... but yes, you are right, I should've clarified that percentage table to reflect that, or made necessary adjustments for those products. As for ease of use, I have to disagree, it really does play an important role in the sales of Poser. It is mentioned quite heavily in the advertisements for Poser and in allot of online magazine reviews of Poser. I also know of a large majority of Poser users who are (ahem and not meaning to be disrespectful) semi retired or retired individuals who value Poser because of it's ease of use. But you are VERY RIGHT about Poser's ability!!! I am not an artist. Never have been and though I worked in the Comic Industry, I was only a writer and inker (tracer to you "Chasing Amy" fans). Until I found Poser I could only draw my pictures with words or was confined to tracing someone else's vision. With Poser, combined with Zygote/DAZ/Community products, I am able to create (to some extent) the worlds I see in my head. It is a marvelous tool... but one I would've never picked up if not for the fact that it wasn't easy to use or understand. Poser has helped me to explore the visions I dream, it has helped me to create a company and succeed financially, it has helped to me to make allot of friends and... it has helped to inspire me to learn (or not be afraid to learn) other software programs such as Lightwave and Maya. Poser has done allot for me, as I am sure it has done for allot of people and I think it is THAT which truly makes Poser an unique program... Jack

Now I am confused...... Why should I pay $350 for a product that contains two figures that will be "improved" on by others? Some folks seem to feel it is ok for CL to have two figues that are butt ugly since "others" will make them better. I didn't pay for "others"..... I paid for a finished product from CL and I feel the quality of the characters they provided should have been worth the money.

No need to apologize Jack, I stand corrected. ;-) There are problems with Poser5, this is true, and I hope CL can work them out. The already released patches have gone a long way to correct some of the existing problems, but all is not perfect yet. OTOH, DAZ's application may be what others are waiting for and want, there's no law that says CL has to have the only posing game in town. I think it's a shame that the two companies that worked so closely together are having differences, but nothing good lasts forever, so the saying goes.

Good thing you didn't start with P4 then drafter69, you would have been sorely disappointed. In the grand scheme of 3D $350 is not alot of money for a 3D application. Welcome to Poser ;-)

I did start with Poser 4 but unfortunately I also started with Michael 2.

My disappointment is not as much with the program as with the attitude of CL that it is OK to include poor characters since "others" will fix them and make them better.

If I buy a new car I doubt the salesman will tell me that I should ignor the ugly interior or color since I can take it home and get others to make it look good for the company.

My feelings for DAZ and CL are completely different. I purchased a finished product from CL and they owe me quality figures included with their product. Instead what they gave me were 4 characters that I doubt I will ever use.

re: Turtle on 10/24/02 10:43 "Daz is the only place you can buy Poser products and return them if you don't like them. They have the very best customer service on the internet." Generally now I'd agree with that - though my initial (and secondary) reaction to the T-Rex I bought from them were "horrible - what a terribly -fatally - flawed model" and "Well, tha brush-off was neither nice nor expected". yes, they sold me a brokered "work in progress" - a fact I didn't discover until after receiving the model (having paid) and the response to my dissapointment was along the lines of "that's not our product, it's brokered. Go sort it out yourself". It's not ONLY CL that ship unfinished product, or have customer relation "hiccoughs". Since which I've had more joy - no more "broken2 models (though I feel trepidation at the thought of trying to return something to them). Cliff Bowman

"My feelings for DAZ and CL are completely different. I purchased a finished product from CL and they owe me quality figures included with their product. Instead what they gave me were 4 characters that I doubt I will ever use. " Actually the figures are "stock" they don't have to be the best, you have to remember what Poser was intended for - you are paying for the software application, that's the problem for most people - shelling out the money for software that doesn't work as promised. It's a bit like hiring a roofer to fix your roof and it leaks.

15%+32%+42%+12%=101% Anyway, how can you put such specific numbers on such things, Jack? It's ridiculous. I guess a competing program would probably be a good thing, assuming it could solve some of P4/P5's issues at a reasonable price (i.e., less than the CL product). Though I'm not holding my breath regarding a Mac version, given DAZ's track record, software-wise.

I think what drafter69 is asking for, not unreasonably, is that state-of-the-art figures be included in a (supposedly) state-of-the-art software package. Certainly, this was my expectation. Bring on V3, I say.

Your right Mosca we very much need V3 and M3...... Please DAZ hurry up and get us some new "good" characters to feed our Poser fantasies.............please!

The numbers might be ridiculous or bogus, but they helped to paint a reference to my opinion or conclusion on where I saw the majority of support for Poser 4 was coming from. And Poser 4 has always received more than 100% support from this Community!! :o) Jack

And that's the way it's gonna be I'm afraid.. I was eager to get my copy of Poser5.. once I did, I played a couple of hours with it and then just let it be there and came back to good old P4 feeling sorry for my wasted drive space, although I admit it behaved alright on my own system even unpatched! However, I believe that an application must become more user friedly version after version, not just more complicated and obviously this is the case with Poser 5. If DAZ comes out with an application as good as Poser4 and simple to use, you bet they've got the winning cards all at their hands! People like to take renders, not fiddle with the app for ages till they reach the stage they can take one, so you bet I'll have no hesitation at all to try out the DAZ software the minute it comes out.. if it suits me, I won't let sentimentalism get in the way, I'll just curse myself for having wasted good money on the Poser5 upgrade and I'll work with the tools that are most productive and make my life easy! So for me it is Poser 4 for sure till DAZ's new software is out and something tells me I can relay enough on their experience and great stuff to be assured it will be as good and friendly as we were all used to in the past with our favorite app! CL threw in some impressive toys in P5 but has badly dissapointed me! They take ages to use so what's the point since they lack in functinality? Rena

Very well said Rena!! Jack

Rena's exactly right, speed and ease of use are two of Poser's major advantages over most other 3D applications. There really isn't anything seriously wrong with Poser 4 to begin with, and if DAZ focuses on making a program that's easy to use and still remain moderately powerful as P4 is, it will be well worth the wait. If I want to screw around with complicated texture mapping and wait hours for a render, I'll use Bryce. ;) SnowS Hoping his pictures are worth 1001 words. 1001 Words

"The P4Man and Woman (Posette and Dork) ARE DAZ (formerly a division of Zygote) models drafter69..... licensed from Zygote/DAZ. They do not belong to CL. Don and Judy OTOH do belong to CL," Don and Judy are Posette and Dork, with Eve style cutting and slightly better mesh density. [I see that Jack already fielded that one] They're cut alomost identically to Eve, only not quite as well, and the JP's aren't as well done as Eve's. But a good examination of the mesh and the model characteristics show the Posette/Dork heritage, just as Mike and Vicki 2 are still recognizably Mike and Vicki. As I think Duanemoody demonstrated awhile back with comparisions of eye widths, lips, spacings and other characteristics - but he got shouted down. shrug If they're the Posette and Dork meshes, it's reasonable that the kids and animals are reworked P4 meshes also. And also reasonable to assume that unless there was renegtiation of contracts, that Zygote/Daz still holds ownership of those meshes lisenced to CL. Tagged. ;]

Bingo. As a Mac user, I have no choice here but to wait on the sidelines till DAZ or CL gets around to issuing a package that actually runs on my computer. Maybe that's a blessing in duisguise--alowing time for comparison shopping. We'll see.

Now, personally, while I use Vicki and Mike extensivly, and I like Stephanie, I also still like and use Posette and Dork - in the P4 app versions. Eve, ArilYSH's and Dementia's remapped versions of the P4 characters to take Vicki & Mike maps are in my most used base character folders. They're light on system resources, and they do hold up pretty well against Mike and Vicki for a lot of character types - if one has the skill to bring out the best in them, as VirtualSite has demonstrated he can with the P4Male, and SKing and Mac have with the P4 woman.

I never thought default, out of the box Mike or Vicki were ugly. I think they chose very attactive people to base them off of. Regarding the real issue of this thread, I'm just waiting for the dust to settle and looking forward to Daz's new app and Vicki 3.

In regards to Don, Judy, and their brood, I suppose the biggest dissapointment I had with them is that they don't have the body morphability of Vicky or Mike. With the latter, you can make them look like anyone you have ever met or imagined. I'm a big guy and I like to use large looking people in my pictures. With Judy and Don you can have them convincingly thin or convincingly muscular--not convincingly heavy though. Most of the people I know and see aren't all fit and trim. Although while I was happy that the new P5 children have a variety of clothes they can wear (in P4 they were either naked or wearing summer attire), I was unhappy that it isn't any easier to get clothes to fit morphed figures (no one seems to really understand the cloth room dynamics yet) and if I did understand it it still is far from easy. I agree with the comments above that I expected improved figures to be included with greater ease of use. P5, to me a 3D hobbiest, is a much more difficult program to use than it's predasessor. I will have to wait and see if I can afford the Daz application when it finally arrives, but if it is easier and fits within my budget I will buy it. I guess the bottom line to a lot of us who don't have deep pockets, is whether or not the app. will have those afforementioned qualities without having to resort to buying a ton of add ons. P5 has made a lot of the add on's already purchased obsolete (The Tailor, python scripts, etc.), unless I go back to using them with P4. My Poser budget is shot for the year. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

A quick (for me, anyway) .02: I've written elsewhere that CL took on a very difficult task in positioning P5 as a "prosumer" app, equally appealing to hobbyist/trad artist and pro alike. I agree that we should not have heroes, and that P5's new features would be more appealing if there was a better learning curve. OTOH, I haven't seen many apps in the current price range with these features that are much simpler in terms of usability. I'm not saying that arrogantly or sarcastically; if somebody knows of such an app, I would be interested. HASH certainly isn't it. Maybe DAZ will produce that app.

I agree fully with Rena and Tomsde. P4 was fun to use because it was easy. Yes, I can appreciate the advances made in P5, but, so far, P5 has been nothing but a burden to use (and I'm not even considering the bugs because I know CL will fix them all eventually). I'm about to post a new mesaage about trying to use the latest DAZ Fairy Wing and Droid textures in P5 compared to P4. In P4 I just applied the MATs and all was well. In P5 nothing applies correctly at all, and I have no place to turn for help except these user's forums (bacause DAZ and CL aren't getting along - DAZ won't help with problems in applying their stuff in P5, and CL is too busy fixing bugs to be expected to help with the application of new DAZ stuff). Sigh,... it just ain't no fun anymore. Almost enough to make me take up an entirely new hobby. Seriously. I only have so much money and free time, ya' know...

Well, the months to follow will be interesting to say the least. Though I do wonder if DAZ will include their latest and greatest in their application...... AND if if will be reasonably priced. V3, M3 and their brood with all the posing, lighting, and material capabilities...... and everything else this community has been begging for these past 3 years for around $350? Hmmmm, I've got my checkbook ready and waiting. Though frankly, I'm not holding my breath..... not because I don't believe in DAZ, but because I think that's a pretty tall order. But if so, hey, I'll be the first in line to purchase. If it's just another rendering tool, I've already got Bryce, Vue, Poser4 and 5.... I'm pretty well set for rendering tools, I want it all in one package.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=925552

Ease of use, I would say 75%. Out of the box, you can do things right now, unlike Rhino and Bryce (of which I like) ! I think it's the greatest piece of 3D software, out there... and a great price.