In an earlier post, Lyrra said: "Any person commenting in a non-constructive negative or derogatory manner will have the comment deleted and be warned. If this behavior is repeated, further actions may need to be taken." Then the thread was locked before anyone could respond--the implication being that comment from R'osity customers was not welcome. I will now, in violation of the New Directive, make the following non-constructive, negative, derogatory comment: In any free and open forum, arguments crop up. Differences of opinion occur. Issues are thrashed out. Why are we so afraid of passionate interchange? Are people so thin-skinned, so emotionally fragile, that they can't bear the slightest whiff of conflict? It's not always possible, if you feel strongly about something, to frame your every remark in "positive" terms. The more rules we have about what we can say and how we can say it, the less likely it becomes that anything worth saying will be said.

Nice knowin' ya. ;-)

I think that the intent of this restriction is honorable, but the scope is too inclusive. As you note, without debate and well articulated criticism, how are we to make arguments or voice our opinions (even if incorrect)? I, for one, enjoy some of the debate, yet also concede that some of it does turn into flaming or is initiated as a troll. There must be a distinction between wasted bandwidth wars with a hundred messages and debates/discussions that require some point-counterpoint argumentation. This forum should not only be for offering assistance, but also for having discussions (that remain on-topic anyway).

"Are people so thin-skinned, so emotionally fragile, that they can't bear the slightest whiff of conflict?" Sad to say, more often than not that is EXACTLY the case.

I don't think it refers to civil debates. Its more directed towards those out and out flamewars and mudslinging parties. Ya know the ones that so often pop up here and within an hour theres 200 posts with no end in site. In 90% of them the "constructive" part ended at post #3 and the rest are just people screaming at each other over what they cant even remember. I have to imagine that is the reason for Lyrra's post. And it was probably locked because it would have indeed turned into just that. She also mentioned a lack of moderators. Its probably to cut down on the threads that need to be "moderated" due to some peoples incessant need to act like 2 yr olds. Thats my take on it anyhow. Just my 2 cents, Gina

non-constructive negative or derogatory manner Should say "non-constructive or derogatorty manner". The word negative should not be in there at all, because many comments for improvement might very well include some negativity. Criticism, constructive or other, is negative by its very nature. But really you should define "trolling", and then say "Trolling will not be permitted", but it seems to me that that's already in there. So what's going on anyway? Recent epidemic of trolling or something?

I agree, let's keep things positive, people can't seem to do that without a little help. Sad, but true.

I thought locking that thread was a little odd too, but you have to admit that it's not terribly hard to tell the difference between a troll and constructive criticism. It's important that we have the right to voice our opinions, but it's also our responsibility to state it in an intelligent and meaningful way. I'm all for deleting pointless and hurtful gallery comments, but I hope the mods don't jump the gun and start killing debates just because they get a little fiery. BTW Mosca, I thought you were leaving? Haha, it's hard to stay away from this place, isn't it? ;) SnowS

Guys.. i think it has more to do with the last "conflict" that we had in here and it's outcome. Where one member and i do stress member was attacked because of his connections to CL.

It's possible Stormrage, tho I dont know what you are talking about. I tend to stay away from heated threads if possible. So I probably missed it, but you could very well be right. :) Cheers, Gina

i have to agree with cimerone on this one

"non-constructive[,] negative or derogatory manner" perhaps?

It seems like the 'net-ese word "troll" is being misused, slightly. Trolling (as almost everyone knows by now) is the posting of an inflammatory or provocative comment for no better reason that to get a rise out of people. Yes, some people do that both in comment and in gallery images, but it's not always the worst thing in the world. I've found some of the obvious troll posts to the OT forum (probably the only appropriate place for them, if there is one at all) to be highly amusing. The ensuing threads offered an opportunity for great discussion and debate. Still, pointless or overly negative trolls and attacks are a waste of bandwidth and certainly non-productive. However, some members and perhaps admins here at Renderosity seem to use "troll" to mean "heated dissent," or perhaps "personal attacks," which are something else. What happened in the unfortunate thread where Nosfiratu was needlessly criticized wasn't trolling. The criticizers thought they had a legitimate point, regardless of whether I or the admins disagreed. What happens in those threads where a certain member who some feel doesn't belong in the Hot20 isn't trolling, either. I agree that too many members are quick to play wannabe admin, cop, or lawyer, but I also have to agree that some debate, within the limits already established by the TOS, is necessary for the general health of this community. I'm sick of the "is it art?" thing, but it's an eternal debate which needs to be hashed out. I assume that Lyrra meant to give a fair forewarning by posting what she did, but it's unclear exactly what she meant. I'm not going to worry about it, though. If I get a "warning" for saying something that someone doesn't like, I'll attempt to discuss the matter in a civil manner. It just seems to me that the TOS already establish the rules of the game. I'm going to read her message to mean "let's make the best of this place by emphasizing the positive, the altruistic, and by eschewing the conspiracy theories and negative agendas." Correct me if I've misunderstood, admins. Peace and respect to you, Lyrra. I'm sorry if your job seems thankless sometimes, but please trust that there are lots of us who appreciate the Rosity staff. Hey, howzabout that Cave Troll in "Fellowship?" I liked that troll. I felt sorry for him, tortured by Orcs and all. Maybe some trolls just need a hug. (collective groan...)

That thread was locked to avoid it becoming a flamewar in its own right. "non-constructive negative" is an awkward construct, I agree. the simple rules: No calling each other rude names No insulting another members family/race/country/religion/rendering engine/OS/platform No negative comments meant simply to hurt things that are ok: Negative comments made in a constructive way - for example critiquing an image Civil disagreements Heated debate All of these rules seem to me to be simple courtesy and common sense. However, a great deal of it has been lacking recently. I for one am very tired of reading 200+ posts of screaming brats. I don't have kids for a reason, okay? We will attempt to moderate this forum without censoring. If at any time you feel a thread or comment has been deleted unnecasarily, please contact a moderator or admin. Lyrra the Overworked

"No insulting another members"~snip~"OS/platform" aww the mac / pc debate and the windoze / *nix debate both not allowed?!?!?!? Lyrra, but then my funny debate post in vector with theglenster over macs would be a bad post. he posted "appleappleapple"......"appleillustratorillustrator" I posted "saucesuacesuace"....... it was worth a chuckle. heated debate's can often be easily mistaken as "flaming" maybe a post by a mod / admin of " -0^0- " ( a pair of glasses ) to remind people in a heated debate to mind the rules? this could help avoid the deleting of a thread when it isn't required, and the negative feelings / attitudes that such deletions would engender.

'non-constructive negative or derogatory manner Should say "non-constructive or derogatorty manner' I assumed it was supposed to read ''non-constructive, negative or derogatory manner' ie. with the missing comma making sense of the whole thing. But since Lyrra (who wrote it), didn't see fit to correct it, who am I to push my paddle in? I mean, that's just being non-constructive, negative and derogatory, isn't it? LOL. mac

"Are people so thin-skinned, so emotionally fragile, that they can't bear the slightest whiff of conflict?" Hell, look what happens you make a comment in the galleries sometimes.....

Scott, (LOL!) The Chow Dog is posed Just right! (needs a trolling motor on the back of the boat though, doncha think!) Nicely done! - TJ

"No insulting another members family/race/country/religion/rendering engine/OS/platform" Ok, what constitutes an "insult"? If I, as a person who's genetically about 1/3 German, make a joke about Germans not having a sense of humor, say, does that mean ipso facto that I'm insulting them? (And if they think I am, doesn't that prove my point?) I'm not (just) trying to be a pain in the ass, but what it comes down to, no matter how it's parsed, is a judgment call on the part of the mods. "I for one am very tired of reading 200+ posts of screaming brats." Honey, you may be in the wrong line of work.

"BTW Mosca, I thought you were leaving? Haha, it's hard to stay away from this place, isn't it? ;)" Just when ya t'ink yer finally out, dey pull you back in!

In my experience it's better to let things like this die on their own. Usually when admins try to over officiate everything things tend to get worse. But at least it gives em something to do I guess. :)

The motor fell off about a mile back bikermouse. That's what they're trolling for. 8-)

LOL!

What are they using for bait?

Images of victoria standing in front of a temple with a sword. Oh, and she's naked of course.

A nude picture of Vickie wearing a helmet and holding a sword. The motor is a "Johnson".

Scott your killing me...LOL....Legume, actually some people, I think, maybe just a little more sensitive then others. I know that I have days where my skin is so thick I am surprised my blood runs through it, and then there are other days, well, I am transparent. Sharen

A Johnson? Just another babe looking for baby oil.

Scott, if she "wearing a helmet" then she isn't nude. ~L~ looking for the nuketo recompense me for Scott's pun

No insulting another members family/race/country/religion/rendering engine/OS/platform.....hummmmm....you better post this in the rhino forum, too. i've never heard a good thing about rhino's native renderer. oh, my.

"Are people so thin-skinned, so emotionally fragile, that they can't bear the slightest whiff of conflict?"

Quite a few are. Forums like this are so different than other communications and too many end up huffing away and holding grudges after their first conflict. If you can't argue with someone in one discussion and not carry it into another then you don't have any business in the forums.

You know also, alot of us come here (well I should speak for myself).....again...one more time....I come here because of lots of reasons, I also can get away from my reality life for a while and jump into things that I really care about...so it is like an outlet....critisim I can take, cruelty is not necessary. I think that is what people are concerned about and I don't blame them. Sharen

Quite right Sharen! If you're going to use this site as a weapon to injure, hurt, destroy or pressure; If you get your life philisophy from the WWF, than you've got a problem. Not that long ago, a luminary here proudly compared this forum to a high powered rifle. This as the mad snipers were picking off people in the Washington area. I, for one, will not stay here if this sort of acting out continues. I just don't need it. Cheers, Q

Damn. Ah well - this is just my mark of d'book, y'all. /P

How about a permanent ban on anyone who posts a "I'm leaving Renderosity forever" thread? Those damn things ALWAYS end up bashing somebody, and the person almost NEVER leaves.

lol ... Legume - you might be right ... but be carefull - sometimes people simply HAVE to leave 'cause of money-issues, they are just sad or their lifes just changed ... Most people just don't think about the weight of the word 'forever' - but you should give them a chance to think it over ;o). The biggest problem is: Noone reads messages like: I'll leave Renderosity maybe ?? (but - wait - it might's worth a try) For the statement about the negative non-constructive: I think there are limits ... If Legume would call me a total a...h... I would just laugh ... - If I would be called this from an unknown without any reason it would be different. I think all things can be discussed out and banning someone somewhere is the last solution (well, it's a pretty fast and easy one too) and should be thought over well. It's easy to destroy and hurt - but not so easy to build up and heal

How about a permanent ban on anyone who posts a "I'm leaving Renderosity forever" thread? man, i am so on the brink of doing just this. and, hey now...most of my major friends are already banned. ain't nothin' wrong with hangin out at poserpros, by my way of thinkin'... errrr....could i just "borrow" your armadillo for my swansong speech? or, like just post another render of him, so i can try and draw my own model???? pretty please, with..."i'm never gonna quit naggin' ya on top?" doc...i am just kidding about the armadillo..at least the model part...but, i would love another render of it, here, cause i hate to search for junk in the galleries....please don't make me wander into pink pony land...oh, please, oh, please....

Well Legume you are right, that does happen alot....but it might just be a moment they are having...LOL, I do understand what you mean though...but it is not a big deal... I really think the whole point to this is the cruelty factor....it is just not necessary. Like you Legume, you know what it is like, not everybody has the same taste and you for one has been the target for many....you handle it better then most, but you know how it feels when some comments just aren't necessary. Sharen

Bookedy markedy.

My hope is that the results will boil down to a simple enforcing of the rules, which has often been lax. Hopefully, it will equate to the most basic tenat of virtually every religion: "Don't be a jerk. And you know what I mean by jerk."

There's a fairly simple answer. You have a special place where people can indulge in all of the antics that you don't want to see happening in the technical forums. If people want to slag off a company's practices, they can do it there. If they want to have a fight about something or other, they can do it there. Bitch about unfair admin policy; complain about types of art; complain about complainers about types of art; debate site wars and commercial conspiracies - members can dump to their heart's content in the litter tray provided. If this psychiatric ward exists, and all the Randle Patrick McMurphys are permitted 'freedom of speech' without Nurse Ratchet coming in and over-applying the forum equivalent of electro-convulsive therapy; then not only will no one ever need to be smothered - no one will have any excuse for throwing sanitary equipment through the windows of the technical forums. And with no excuse, the technical forums can justifiably be ruthlessly pruned of outbreaks of crap (and there's even somewhere to dump it). A nice name for the new forum could be "Complaint and Debate". BTW, Lyrra, your OS is utterly beneath contempt. I spit on the mother and father and distant aunt of your operating system.

well, said, PJ...wow...could we dream of such a place? errrr...didn't i know you in another renderosity life? a long ago, and far away place? sorry, must have been a dream. but, but, but...in that dream, we did have some great fun verbally trying to rip out one another's vital organs. i shall dream of this place tonight. who know? stranger things have happened...tomorrow i may wake up, check this place and find that it is no longer kansas. oh, and...btw....what is your favorite renderer?

Legume, elgeneralisimo finds your lack of compassion for the sufferers of Rebuked Dilettante Immolation Syndrome... disturbing...

LOL@ PJF - it does seem that the "upsets" here have become more common since removing that forum. What I don't understand is the reason to make the post at all - if the point was as Lyrra posts above than there was no reason for a specific topic addressing it - that is already covered in the TOS as it stands. And I gotta agree with Mosca you may be in the wrong line of work ;~D Just because people disagree or voice their opinions doesn't make them a screaming brat. Ya want to see a screaming brat you should have been at my house this week - two 6 month old twins (they were preemies so they can't sit up or crawl yet and are getting "antsy") who are both teething, a 2year old child with no manners or respect who screams at everyone and breaks everything he lays his hands on. Add to that my own 3 wonderful kids (I can say that after this week, since all 3 of mine from 16 down to 9 helped take care of her kids while she played computer games and they didn't fight or mouth even once all week! I think they might be aliens....) and you have a really chaotic household and a real mess that puts you almost a week off your schedule while you are fighting that awful virus that's going around. Now that's tiring!

Oh wait - I missed the inability to have a negative comment on a rendering engine or OS Ok - so now I get it and see the real reason for this... Funny thing is that while all the other "topics" are covered legally I don't think anyone has even tried to enact a law that states you can't make negative comments in regards to a company or software before... that's a different first. So if I read this correctly one could post that software "A5" is awful and crashes their computer or doesn't come with any 4-legged creatures as long as they leave constructive comments on how to fix it? But warning others of buggy software; let's say a new version "A5.5" came out, would not be tolerated? And furthermore this new version of the TOS is only thus far being applied in the Poser forum? Or is it being applied to all application forums? I just want to know exactly how that is supposed to work and exactly where it applies. Thank you :-D

I resonate fully with the above message from LadySilverMage. Great insight and a clever way of stating it. LadySilverMage, did you ever see the movie "Pleasentville"?

Yes, Lapis I have - but I make a point to live my life in as much colour as possible. :-D

Personally, I think if people adhered to the advice in the OT forum: "Remember to stick to discussing issues, not members. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.", half of the problems would dissipate. Far too often people disagree with others' comments and/or opinions and wield it as a weapon against them personally rather than discussing it maturely.

Of course, there seems to be quite a wide interpretation of what a "personal attack" is, so clarification on what constitues a "personal attack" would be in order. It seems that some cannot distinguish between commentary, critcism, and/or personal attacks.

/me coloring a bookmark with smiley faces and happy people

personal attack, my definition by example. you sticking low life sob cyber stretch. non personal attack, my definition by example. " Scott, if she "wearing a helmet" then she isn't nude. ~L~" ( post 31 in this thread ) does that help clarify a non personal attack for you?