This is a serious request. Tim Perhaps you could post a list of "banned" words so we all know exactly what is what. You see there is a bit of a problem here. I am a Broadsheet Journalist in Ireland and until a few years ago the word "crap" was a no no as regards print and live broadcasts. But then the Taoiseach (Primeminister) of Ireland at the time, Albert Reynolds, used the word in an international live broadcast. Since it could not be edited out, it went out, and has since then entered common usage in the newspapers and live media. It and other words are now acceptable in the media in Ireland, the UK and other English-speaking counties. Now I am not sure about its media acceptability in the USA, but since this is an international site with many many non-US members, perhaps you could clarify which version of the English Language we should perfect so as to be fully compliant with your TOS and if this version is any different to the media-acceptable and publicly acceptable language in the USA. Come to think of it you might have to do the same for Mexican and a few other languages as well. On the business of "trials" it has been a long time since I have witnessed anything approaching the "Show Trial" phenomenon common under Stalin and some later Communist leaders who sent so many artists and writers to rot in the Gulags. The last place I expected to see the revival of "Show Trials" was on a USA-based Graphic Arts Internet Site. In fact I doubt if the word trial can be legally applied to the "trial" of Dillinger. As regards Libel, Defamation and Slander I used to deal with this stuff every day and our laws are much tighter than US counterparts. As journalists we often wished we had similar freedoms to our collegues in the USA. But one thing to bear in mind when mulling over this stuff is that every such case is a grey area when it comes to the law and there is often the defence of "Fair Comment". If you want my opinion (which you probably don't), reverse the decision on Dillinger, walk away from this farce with some dignity and start over on winning the respect and support of this community. That way you might survive the rocky road that awaits you. STORM

heh heh

You can't please everyone. It's not language that is in question, it's the personal attacks. -JH.

I agree on that one Jeff.

Hi Jeff I am sorry to see its you having to field all the "crap" that is flying in as I have the highest of respect for you and your work. However, from what I have read all over these Forums the personal attacks have been coming from all sides and sometimes - though lacking foul language - far worse than Dillinger's IMHO. My questions are fundamentally serious and will probably remain unanswered to the further detriment of Renderosity's credibility as an open Graphics Art site. No doubt there is some justification somewhere in Edgenet's defence of their actions and in their ongoing PR disaster which has been deepened by their hands-on venture into crises management, but I cannot help wondering just how many of their prospective clients they are currently directing to this site? Or what impact this is having on the wider commercial Graphics community who might be prospective purchasers or clients? I mean "Show Trials" for God's sake! Regards STORM

They have been doing a wonder job of keeping the wars out of the graphics forums. You have to come here or to comp/debate to feel the fire of any of this. I imagine people coming to check out the art or the models or who are looking for how to add texture to a 3dsmax object are not coming here. It's pretty simple, really, if you don't want to be involved in the war as it settles, don't come to comp debate or forum news/team contact. It's really, really elementary. =Darth_Logice

Darth, when I buy a car I look under the bonnet. Regards STORM

I sometimes just think I should do that, since the poser forum is silent again. As I see it, not because the people stopped ranting there, but because the staff handled this right and moved this discussion here. But I just try to get a feeling about Jack and Ed and Edgenet, so I have to come here. And i do not like the tone here, mostly not from the anti-Edgenet-fraction. I take in account that most of you feel hurt, but it starts to get childish. Sorry if my english is a bit strange, my mother language is german. Hope to have made my point clear anyway. Best wishes ro all of you, Uwe Schmidt

I think the goal has to be to make this a place where the majority of the people feel comfortable and know they will not be subjected to insults or foul language just for having an opinion or question. The public trial was one way to create an awareness of the problem but maybe not the best way. Several people have asked why the article on the Dillinger vote was taken down. The reason is that the intent was not to embarrass anyone but rather to have the community members have input on what type of site they want this to be. There certainly are Jackites in the mix that will cause trouble for any reason and we have attempted to even let their voices be heard as long as it didn't become personal attacks or vulgarities. Time will tell whether this was a wise decision. Tim Choate

Not speaking as a Jackite, (Heh heh, neat phrase, What's the old writers adage? Not a word but it should be?), but it seemed that one of the major concerns was/is for me at least, that if it was posted to forum it should have stayed an open topics long enough for more than a brief sampling. Who knows, a different opinion might have emerged. Or, if was going to be done that briefly than better to just handle it administratively... I know. I'm not stating anything that hasn't already been said repeatedly and with worse invective. It just seemed that for something that came up and was evidently handled in the amount of time it took for someone like me to grab a quick six.. that there wasn't time for the community to examine it and weigh the issue. What we got were knee jerk, rather than thoughtful reactions. (I'm NOT taking a shot here. There've been way too many knee jerks from all involved and I'm including myself in that.) If we are to have a voice, it needs to be a thoughtful one, with time to examine and weigh the situation and consequences... else we may as well not have one if its just limited to those who are fast off the keyboard. I'd kind of like to see that voice be from the more reasoned and cooler heads, myself. Later... Ironbear

The forum about the vote was removed because you didn't want anyone 'embarrased' ? It seems that you would be the only one embarrased by that unanimous outpouring of sentiment against you? I see you also deleted the original thread that started it all. Like others have said. It's your place, run it as you see fit but don't expect people to believe these phony excuses for your actions

"I think the goal has to be to make this a place where the majority of the people feel comfortable and know they will not be subjected to insults or foul language just for having an opinion or question." The funny thing about the above is that this is exactly what this place was like until recent events - caused primarily by Edgenet's actions - drove many highly respected contributing members out of here and left the majority of the remainder feeling outraged and deeply disturbed by the affair. I had no intention of getting involved in any of this, nor am I an ardent Jack/Ed, Willow/Grey loyalist and until very recently I had no views on either Edgenet or its management, but the unfolding events and the treatment meted out to genuinely upset members of this site have left me deeply sceptical about Edgenet's ethics and motivation. Simply put while the jury is still out a finding is rapidly nearing a conclusion. As long as Edgenet management have a direct input into the editorial content of this site it is unlikely to become again a credible site for Artists(particularly considering the primary importance of the Forums). Please do not consider this and the above an attack on you personally but I do not think you can continue to wear both Edgenet's Commercial and Renderosity's Editorial cap and not be subjected to continued ethical and credibility questioning. Similar conflicts of interests between editorial and management/owner inputs exist in the media and they have only been resolved by allowing complete and transparent independent editorial freedom. It is for this reason the Government and Judicial functions in most democracies are also independent of each other. "There certainly are Jackites in the mix that will cause trouble for any reason and we have attempted to even let their voices be heard as long as it didn't become personal attacks or vulgarities. Time will tell whether this was a wise decision". I am glad to see that you at least are aware of the huge inherent dangers of censorship, let me advise you should you ever introduce it in any significant way you will effectively be damming any remaining credibility here and quite possibly signing Renderosity's closure notice IMHO. Speaking of which it is now 12 hours since I posted an opinion/question on the front page under "Renderosity breaks 29,000 members mark." When I submitted it I was informed it would have to be reviewed first before appearing. Where is it please? It was a simple question, one which any businessman or journalist might ask given the claim. It was: "Can you back this claim up with certified and independently audited figures?" Most businesses and media businesses can back up their circulation and sales figures claims, can Edgenet? As someone currently in the process of building a major 3D Graphics business I have a commercial interest in this, as I am sure have other businesses reading these Forums. Regards and no personal attack intended. STORM

STORM - you raise a fair question. We haven't had the circulation audited yet because as you know that cost a considerable amount of money and this site does not make much money at the present time. It seems unlikely that an audit would change that in the short term. So I think that leaves you saying you don't trust us to tell the truth. That's fair, but let's consider some circumstantial data. How long ago was it that Jack posted a message stating the membership had reached 25,000 and then a few weeks later he posted that it had reached 27,000. Did you believe him? Do you suspect that we are in collusion somehow? If you plot that growth trajectory where do you think it might put us about now in terms of members? Tim

How quickly some forget. Here is the article Tim mentioned, published by Jack on 8/13/2000 at 8:33:45 PM CST. http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewStory=276

Tim, You have avoided answering the questions about the missing posts. I too added a comment to the TOS announcement pointing out some potential legal problems for users. That was on 9/22. Where is it? Mike Waters

My Friend Bear Who I Hold In High Regard, And Tim.. "I think the goal has to be to make this a place where the majority of the people feel comfortable and know they will not be subjected to insults or foul language just for having an opinion or question." "There certainly are Jackites in the mix that will cause trouble for any reason and we have attempted to even let their voices be heard as long as it didn't become personal attacks or vulgarities." First Tim I'm Not Trying To Dredge Things Up Again, However, I Can;t Help But Point Out Facts Here. The People Like Twoblade Who Asked Questions Were Berated, Belittled, Personally Attacked, And Swore At. Yet, You Seem To Overlook This And Claim That "Jackites" Where The Ones To Blame. Funny, I Challenge You To Post The Messages In Order. Granted, My Part Started With Picking Apart Your Summary. Which Gained Me Many Attacks From "Edgers". Still None Of The Issues I Scrutinized Have Been Answered. Instead We Have Dillinger On Trial, And THose That Went Around Swearing Left And Right ANd Making Personal Attacks On Myself And Other People Here, Going Away Clean Handed. Sorry, But That's Hardly Fair. I'm Not Condoning What Dillinger Did At All. However, If You Are Going To Make Such Statements And Honestly Intend Them, They Should Cover Everyone. I Don't Think It's Really Fair To Single Out "Jackites" When Myself Would Be The Major "Jackite" In Your Eyes,When There Were Around 5 Or So "Edgers" Attacking And Slandering And Swearing At Others? ScottA, Virus, Bast, Wallflower, Trimax (Who I Have Made Up With And We'll Be Doing Coffee On Thursday). I THink The Witchhunt Is a Travesty Really. Just My Opinion, But The Least You Could Do To Show Good Faith Is Be Fair. This Just Isn't. Bear, You Know You Were My First Buddy On Here And I Hold You In Highest Regard, However, I Just Can't See How You Agree With Jeff On The Personal Attack Issues When Most Of The "Edgers" Started Such. The Proof was There for Anyone That Read It. Again, I'm Not Trying To Rake The Muck, But I Can't Let Such Vague Blanket Statements Go Said Without The Facts being Brought Up. Thanks For Allowing This "Jackite" His Free Thinking Opinion.

Sorry, Driv (and by the way, thanks, you and Paul were among my first friends here too... I'll always value that and hold the same regard), I posted that one day when I was in a hurry and didn't have time to expand upon it... And I still agree with the sentiment. No matter who says it. There have been way too many personal attacks here on both sides. At a certain point, it seems to me to cease to matter who made the first one or wether the last was a response or a new salvo. In many cases, its my friends out here taking strips off of each other. In other cases, its enemies making deadlier enemies out of each other. I log in and the things I read just make me want to bang my head on my monitor and say: Guys, jeeze... Hey, I'm a Jackite, not an Edgite or whatever the hell you wan't to call it. But I've been doing my best not to make attacks, or add kerosene to the fire. No matter who starts the particular flame. No matter which site I'm posting on. I'm not always sucessful, because the things I see make me mad, or hurt, or sometimes make me want to scream, and they've been said on both sides of this. I still live here, and I remember the old old saying... don't crap where you eat. When I fail in the effort to not add to the venom, it makes me sadder. A little on where I come from on this... I grew up on the streets of west Dallas. We do this there too. We called it trading cuts... now it's Dissing or whatever the current word is. Before that it was playing the dozens... When its done between friends its fun and funny. We go away and get together to play again the next day. When the people involved aren't friends... the guns come out and the loser goes away on a stretcher. That's how the big boys play it in the streets. Not with e-messages on the screen, but with real bullets. And real blood. I'm tired and I don't want to play the dozens here. I'm hoping that this never gets to the point that it's for keeps. I'm in the middle, and I'll be one of the first cut down by a stray round. And I also hope that this time I elaborated my statement enough. I just said all I want to say here, and I don't intend to rehash. Enough?

Fair Enough Bear, and Thanks. I Understand What You Are Saying. I Had Made a Lot Of Friends Here, And Until This Crap Had No Enemies. That's The Breaks I Guess. Sad. As I Said Though, Trimax And I Are To Do Coffee On Thursday. So Maybe I Gained a Friend Who Lives Pretty Close. Guess We'll See Eh? I'm Certainly Looking Forward To It With An Open Mind. Be Well My Friend. As A Gangrel, I Bid You Safe Harbour Wherever You May Roam.

No Prob, friend. It's been a hell of a week, for all of us. And, who knows, I may take you up on the offer of Safe Harbour one day. We all need a place of Elysium, on occassion... (You won't hold the fact that some of my best friends are Caitiff agin me, eh?) Later... and peace.