you don't have to rig the gens if you don't want to. They can be controlled completely via morphs. 

But you will have to create separate morphs for both versions cause the vert order will be different. 

~Shane

Quote -  

But you will have to create separate morphs for both versions cause the vert order will be different. 

 

~Shane

Therein lies the ridiculous problem.

It would be the same for any software I'm aware of. It's just the nature of morphs. If the vertex order changes then the morph will no longer work. 

Also why most male figures tend to go the King Missile route and make it detachable. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIUk08iYZKE

~Shane

I'm making a 3D figure, Project E. Whether it is marketable or not, I don't care, but it would be cool. Foremost, I want it for my own work... and i want it to fit all of my V4 content. It saves me time.

But I'll probably be able to sell it anyway, if the quality is good enough. If all the people that bought Lali's Bits will buy my figure, then I've got nothing to worry about. Quite simple.

Here's some info on my figure, called 'project E' (WARNING, LOTS OF EXPLICIT NUDITY!)

General:

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/p/project-e.html

checklist (growing):

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/2013/08/time-to-cut-crap.html

status:

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-new-3d-figure.html

I've also got a new female figure coming out this weekend - All I'll say is it'll be in the usual sparky style:) Even though it's a tad different from the usual some of the concepts here about body parts and shapes still apply, otherwise the model just doesn't work.

edit: removed the arguments against some of the condescanding remarks here, don't feel like bitching today hehehe

just wanna add that I'm going to try and check out what people find important on a new 3D figure. People over at Renderotica have already dumped a TONNE of requests on me.

UV maps: I'd much rather deviate a little from V4's maps because there's a massive seam running right next to her crotch. I've designed a UV map that is kindof unorthodox but it removed the seams far away from vital areas. Hopefully V4 textures are still recyclable by using PS scripts.

Hmmm. Problems with payment processors. Really?

Here's the PayPal User Agreement.

Search for "mature" or "adult". The only reference in the entire document is in this line:

4.8 Receiving Payments from Student Accounts. PayPal may block your ability to receive payments from Student Accounts if you sell goods or services that may be illegal for minors to purchase under any applicable laws or regulations. This includes, but is not limited to, alcohol, tobacco or adult-oriented materials.

*So if you sell adult-oriented materials, you may be blocked from receiving payments from Student Accounts. 

And on the Acceptable Use Policy

You may not use the PayPal service for activities that:

[...] (f) items that are considered obscene, (g) items that infringe or violate any copyright, trademark, right of publicity or privacy or any other proprietary right under the laws of any jurisdiction, (h) certain sexually oriented materials or services

Ebay has an entire sub-store dedicated to mature content (with everything from toys to bondage eq to flicks to gadgets), and it is thoroughly integrated with PayPal, as you'd expect.

They absolutely do not have a blanket policy in regards to adult content. They have the industry standard "nothing obscene" plus a generalized "certain sexually oriented materials" clause that could, if necessary, mean anything, but is almost certainly, given the nature of the merchants they permit on Ebay, not going to include something as prosaic as 3d figures with genitals -- unless you're letting your customers post naked kiddies on your site or posting simulations of torture/snuff animations.

Visa, Mastercard, etc most definitely have no issue working with purveyors of outright kinky porn.

I don’t know what need Dawn was created to address, but I assume at least part of it was to bridge the DS/Poser divide with a figure that would work well in both applications. That’s a significant and possibly a commercially valid motivation. Why create another figure – what’s the motivation and the business case – (‘business’ being something that gets used, whether for sale or free)? Ticking off all the boxes and addressing every perceived shortcoming of what’s currently available sounds great – it sounds rational. The problem is that the market does not necessarily behave in a rational way – ask Greenspan. There also is no single market. You have everything from people who aren’t going to touch anything that requires tweaking, conversion etc. to those who can field strip a figure blindfolded.

About the only things you can depend on in general are obvious and have been mentioned. Content, content, content. By now, people should have learned the folly of assuming that simply creating a ‘great’ figure is enough. If Dawn succeeds, it will be less because she’s a great figure and more because they were smart enough to bet a boatload of content creators onboard from the beginning. Compatibility through conversion is very important but a lot of people probably want new dedicated click and load content. Don’t be too taken with the ‘I can convert the whole cast wardrobe from Oklahoma in 20 minutes’ thing unless you think that’s what the majority of customers will do.

Pretty, pretty, pretty (and sexy). Apply a substantial discount to the ‘I can take her into Zbrush and make my own if the mesh is right’ yada, yada. For everyone that will do that, there are probably ten or more who want pretty out of the box and buy premade characters. Add in all the morphability you want, but for the basic package, forget any calls for the fat, the lame, the old, the ethnic and the everyday plain (even from me). Those can be created but the base needs to be a young, attractive, single, white female. I don’t endorse, I only observe.

I agree that you’re better off creating for your own tastes and hoping that people will like it. Some will, they always do, how many is the question. It might be informative to look at Antonia and follow her trajectory. Someone really should write up some of these figures’ history like a business school case study. I’m not sure how much of a following Posette has, but she’s still getting work when she could be collecting Social Security. Maybe people have been too seduced by the siren song of the latest and greatest. I think that a well made, relatively lightweight, pretty figure with a ton of content, easy to work with and useable in as many versions of Poser/DS as possible would do better than some of the stuff out there or being contemplated. If you want to push the envelope, be state of the art etc. fine but you’ll move a lot more Corollas than super cars.

“Everyone is concerned about the next generation Poser figure, but I wonder if there will be a next generation of Poser users?”

Interesting question. I think the things you mention will remain the case as long as it is driven by obtained content. The revolution on the web came with user generated content, blogs YouTube etc. Technology would have to take a huge leap to make creating Poser content easy enough to be widely done. Think easy, good quality, create my clone from my Xbox cam, easy, cheap mocap etc. And very important, an easy way to create clothing, preferably from photos or patterns. The former are on the way. The latter, probably not in the foreseeable future. Maybe a service using sweat sh… excuse me, inexpensive 3D labor to create clothes on demand would work. Of course, it would kill the content creators, but people might feel more free to use any figure that came along. And no, I’m not talking the Poser forum definition of easy or existing tools easy. I think that falls under the heading of ‘My grandma installed RedHat Enterprise in an hour so why does everyone use Windoze?’

Well the more I learn .
The more I think we have made this way way more complicated than it actually needs to be.

Not sure if that's the best philosaphy to follow.

Thanks for all the info.

Project E looks Amazing, really amazing!  I think our esthetics are the same...I can't see anything thus far that I'd do different.

lmckenzie, a few replies:

Dawn will bridge no gaps or "heal the community", simply because no single figure can work natively in Poser and Studio anymore: The rigging engines of both programs are way too different now.

The only thing "Poser Dawn" and "Studio Dawn" have in common is the object file and the raw textures. Everything else is completey different.

So, to support both, a merchant has to work as hard as if he would make a clothing item that works with both Roxy and Genesis.

The problem is most people don't understand that the "big rift" is simply based on different technology and not some "They are out to destroy us" conspiracy, so they fall for this heartwarming marketing hype.

The reaction of Studio users is predictably a resounding "Meh", as they already have all the most technically advanced toys available. So why should they care if they can use a similar looking figure as we Poser users can ?

Second, yes, you sell more Corollas than Ferraris, but unlike the low end market, the high end market seems to do pretty well. Whose to say that only the $1.99 stuff sells and not the high quality $199 items ?

I also dabble in vintage toy collecting, and there are those who hunt the shelves of WalMart and Toys'R'Us for the newest 99c HotWheels cars, and those who spend a few thousand dollars a month for rare vintage HotWheels cars without even batting an eye.

Both groups collect little toy cars, the only difference is one group collects the cheaply made new stuff, the other collects extremely rare vintage stuff.

Some "collectible" Barbie dolls as well as vintage Barbie stuff goes for thousands of $$$, too.

The money is out there, but you won't get it if you constantly aim at the lowest common denominator.

Even though I'm dirt poor atm, I still buy a professionally made $100+ CGI model then and now, and if someone would offer a "family" of Poser ready figures (Man, woman, child) based on actual laser scans of real people or at least carefully sculpted after photographic reference, I'd happly break my piggy-bank and pay $500 or more if the quality would be right.

Can't be the only one who is sick of the same low end stuff being endlessly recycled over and over again.

moriador and William_the_Bloody:

Thanks for the kind words.

:-)

Quote - Project E looks Amazing, really amazing!  I think our esthetics are the same...I can't see anything thus far that I'd do different.

thanks! I hope it will work out nicely!

for exsample

I have Chromes shin named "RK-Lshin"
I have Diamonds shin named "RK-Lshin"

So a conforming boot will work with both right ?

Quote - I'm making a 3D figure, Project E. Whether it is marketable or not, I don't care, but it would be cool. Foremost, I want it for my own work... and i want it to fit all of my V4 content. It saves me time.

But I'll probably be able to sell it anyway, if the quality is good enough. If all the people that bought Lali's Bits will buy my figure, then I've got nothing to worry about. Quite simple.

Here's some info on my figure, called 'project E' (WARNING, LOTS OF EXPLICIT NUDITY!)

General:

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/p/project-e.html

checklist (growing):

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/2013/08/time-to-cut-crap.html

status:

http://erogenesis.blogspot.com/2013/08/a-new-3d-figure.html

Erogenesis : Wicked Mesh ,Good Luck

Quote -
Erogenesis : Wicked Mesh ,Good Luck

thanks :) lets hope it works out!

Quote - > Quote -

Erogenesis : Wicked Mesh ,Good Luck

thanks :) lets hope it works out!

Seriously with a killer mesh like that .You can go any where you want to in CGI.

1.  Could not care less, though it wouldn't detract from the figure for me.

2. Realistic joints.. Great!  as realistic as possible... without making things more difficult for content creators.  Very Good and simple is better than perfect and complex.  If the improvement gained warrants it then great, but there is no point in adding things 'just' to make your figure 'fancy' or advanced.  Content creation friendly MUST be the guiding principle behind joints.  I think dawn struck a pretty good balance on the joint thing.. She bends better than anything since antonia and is as simple to rig for as anything I've ever worked with.

3. dont have much to say on this.. as far as morphs go I'm a dial spinner.. Needs to be able to pull off varied ethnicities though.. thats for sure

4.  Just not realistic.. sorry.  I'm not one thats convinced that people will pay for quality.. some will... but you need volume to make a go of it and you dont get that by throwing everything into a pricey base figure.  I will say it would be good to launch a morphs++ equivalent along side the base figure.   Also Alyson and Ryan launched with more morphs than you could shake a stick at.. where did that get them

5. Again.. not a huge factor for me.  Some movement with arms would be good and a generally realistic shape.  Some options for size and shape is about all I need in a base figure  (more in depth could be part of a ++ package)

Reality though... you can tick as many boxes as you want.. anyone releasing anything of decent quality should expect to have it ripped apart and clawed down.  The community is too full of too many people who take too much satisfaction out of pretending they could do better without actually being willing to do it.  If more than a few people say they like something the community feels obliged to tell them they shouldn't.

Back on topic though.. figure success hangs on content.  Make it easy to create, easy to convert and easy to use.

Quote - In a Post-Dawn world, what will tomorrow's figure need to include to really make an impact and stand out from the sea of attempts that already exist?

 

1.  Articulated Genitalia built-in, not a seperate prop or a lame indentation.  Intricate and realistic from near or afar.

2.  Realistic joints that take advantage of every possible technology to make bending realistic at all times.  Weight maps?  Sure!  JCM corrections?  If need be!  Magnets?  If the other methods fail, and this helps, throw 'em in there.

3.  Morphable face and body.  Do not make the default muscular, emaciated, fat...just genercially shapely and proportionate and keep the sharp chiseled features out of the face.  Recent default character faces look like the eye/brow/bridge connections were created with boolean cut outs they are so angular and sharp!  Gonna take some powerful morphs to get rid of that stuff without screwing up eyelids etc.

 

4.  Morphs.  All of 'em.  Launch with all of them. 

 

5.  Breasts.  Every third party attempt at the breast area disappoints, always.  Boxy, centered in the wrong place, morphs look floaty and are unrealistic at the top and bottom.  Looks like man breasts that got inflated.

 

That's enough to get started, there are more.

 

Intersting.. see I look at that and dont get too excited by whats shown.  Obviously its a work in progress and from what I read the bends are not WM yet or even JCMd.  And its not at all that I'm offended about the detailed anatomy or anything.. As muchas I wont render it much I can appreciate a nice bit of modelling.    Its just that aside from that what actually sets her apart.  Not hacking it mind you.. just find it interesting that this is 'amazing' where dawn 'falls flat'  

bah.. was going to finish the though but my little ones are crying...

Quote - Project E looks Amazing, really amazing!  I think our esthetics are the same...I can't see anything thus far that I'd do different.

That’ll teach me to refresh the thread before posting. I come back to find that an extended knife fight broke out while I was composing my gems of wisdom, oh well.

There probably won’t be another figure with the reach that V4 had. The market’s simply too fragmented, not just between DS and Poser but between Poser 9+ and the older versions that I suspect a fair number of people still use, not to mention other rendering apps. The rather lackluster performance of virtually every contender to come down the pike makes me question the need, as opposed to the want. Nevertheless, people will continue to run new flags up the pole to see who salutes so God bless ’em. It may actually take a new application with some new approach to inject some life into things. I really have no idea whether the market is actually growing to any significant degree or merely holding place. At any rate, I don’t see that happening so we’re pretty much stuck with the status quo. As someone said about South Carolina on the eve of the Civil War, ‘Too small for a country and too big for an insane asylum.’

Quote - Seriously with a killer mesh like that .You can go any where you want to in CGI.

thanks! do you have enough experience for testing perhaps?

Quote - Intersting.. see I look at that and dont get too excited by whats shown.  Obviously its a work in progress and from what I read the bends are not WM yet or even JCMd.  

yeah there's still a lot to be done. But I won't make due with just any JCMs. I want it to look as real as possible. The current leg JCMs were just to get an idea. Lali's Bits should be an indication of what I'm aiming for.

Below are three renders of my most recent 'Lali System' V4, and I aim to get that kind of detail into it, and perhaps even better (I might even just be able to transfer those morphs if I make a temporary V4 version).

warning! nudity in these links!

render 1

render 2

render 3

Quote - That’ll teach me to refresh the thread before posting. I come back to find that an extended knife fight broke out while I was composing my gems of wisdom, oh well.

You have to move fast around here, a thread can get hijacked, derailed and locked or deleted in the time it takes to compose a reply.

Quote - Seriously with a killer mesh like that .You can go any where you want to in CGI.

Quote - thanks! do you have enough experience for testing perhaps?

I'm sure with a beautiful mesh like Project E your have plenty of experienced ,qualified testers.

I don't have one Poser render in my gallery.That's just sad I need to make some.

Quote - That’ll teach me to refresh the thread before posting. I come back to find that an extended knife fight broke out while I was composing my gems of wisdom, oh well.

There probably won’t be another figure with the reach that V4 had. The market’s simply too fragmented, not just between DS and Poser but between Poser 9+ and the older versions that I suspect a fair number of people still use, not to mention other rendering apps. The rather lackluster performance of virtually every contender to come down the pike makes me question the need, as opposed to the want. Nevertheless, people will continue to run new flags up the pole to see who salutes so God bless ’em. It may actually take a new application with some new approach to inject some life into things. I really have no idea whether the market is actually growing to any significant degree or merely holding place. At any rate, I don’t see that happening so we’re pretty much stuck with the status quo. As someone said about South Carolina on the eve of the Civil War, ‘Too small for a country and too big for an insane asylum.’

That's a rather negative view of the situation that sells other very talented artists short, but I can completely see why so many would have that view in light of how things have gone for the last few years.

I don't think a figure creator should try to build a figure with the intention of it being a Vicky killer. Instead try building one that goes beyond what all the other most commonly used/supported figures can do, and build up your customer base from there. Even if that means there's only a dozen, or a half dozen customers to start with. If it's a quality figure and is supported by its creator with just as much quality in the add-ons, then you'll build a strong customer base for it over time. No one can expect to make a figure a huge success over night. If that's what happens, then awesome, but the chances of it happening now, in such a short period of time, are virtually non-existant due to everything else that's already available. But no business model works that way in any market, no matter what the product is, and to expect it is just setting yourself up for disappointment. As long as you're building something that you know there's a decent demand for, then you'll make money, and that money can grow into a full time income and a full business. And if you're the only one you can get to help work on your products in the beginning, then so be it. That shouldn't be a discouraging factor. It just means you have to work that much harder if it's something you really want to do and be successful at. The notion that one person can't support a full figure without huge amounts of money to start with is just BS. The only thing you need is time, skill and determination. If any one of those factors are lacking, then do whatever needs doing to improve in that area. There are thousands of artists out there that can build figures that put to shame the absolute best poser figure ever seen to date. The just choose not to build for the Poser user base, for whatever reasons. It's been done before though, it can be done again. It just takes time. 

~Shane

Does it seem, a bit, like the "Golden Age" of Poser (including other similar software) passed quite a bit ago, before the technology even landed to make it as interesting as it could've been?

I liken it a bit to flight.  At first it was for Mavericks and innovaters.  Next, early adaptors.  Enthusiasts followed while the mavericks moved on and left the innovaters in charge. 

Soon the Enthusiasts became experts and the innovaters gave way to Industry.  Little has changed since, and you now have jet liners that are safe, fast, effective but those inside have very little comfort unless they shell out for first class, and I can find plenty of people who will tell you first class is anything but.

As with all in life. As soon as money gets involved it is doomed.

Sports are fun, when one sports for fun.

Sport became a "business" as soon as they started paying the players.

Then came the doping.
Then came the scandals.

A club?
A club used to be from a town, or a university.

Now a club is filled with bought players that where born nowhere near the town they play for.

It is one club of bought players versus another club of bought players.

That is what money does.

Ok, I am out of line, but it is a good example.

“That's a rather negative view of the situation that sells other very talented artists short.”

I’m not sure why you’d get that impression. It’s certainly not what I meant. My comments meant speak to the nature of the marketplace, not anyone’s ability to produce quality products for it. I can’t intuit anyone’s motivation for creation. It does seem to me though that more than one new figure has been introduced with an implicit or not so implicit air of taking down the Queen, being the next great thing etc. My guess would be that deep down inside, everyone has that kind of pick 6 dream, that’s pretty much human nature – and in the case of the creative individual I might argue, not necessarily unhealthy ego. No doubt the post-schism environment may have contributed to that. If there’s any unfairness, it may be in imputing such ambitions too generally. I’m not an artist so I can only plead ignorance.

I’m sure you’re correct that many people may see the situation more realistically. If someone is content with a modest start and working for the long haul to build up a smaller, but ongoing business, based on doing what they love then sure, the market is probably there. As I said before, whatever it is, someone will always agree with your vision, and hopefully enough to make that steady income. I guess the question is, how many of these figures deemed to have failed (definitions of failure differ) are making a steady income for their creators? I would think that the chances are much better if the creator is also producing ancillary content. If the figure’s not supported by 3rd parties (who tend not to support figures that aren’t popular) then even the boutique devotes may be less enthusiastic. Motivation, talent, persistence are given requirements but I wonder how many people who can produce a 1st rate figure are also good at producing 1st rate clothing and textures and shaders and poses? And yes, again, I think that those are needed, unless one is content to cater only to those who will convert, use dynamic clothing, roll their own this and that etc. Maybe that still makes a good income, I honestly don’t know.

So yes, it can be done and you make a fine case for it. In the real world though, in practical terms, how many of the fine artists you refer to are in a position to or have the inclination to pull it off? If stipulate only a very few, that sounds about right. Even that doesn’t detract from the talent of the rest. It only says that interests, skill sets, real life obligations etc. limit the number. I think your sober assessment is a must read for anyone thinking of embarking on creating a new figure.

I do think that even if someone is not looking to create the next Vickie, they need to think about marketing, promotion etc. That’s not to deny the virtues you’ve outlined. I just think that however much success you reach through the Costner model, a bit of Don Draper probably wouldn’t hurt – if the figure looks like Christina Hendricks, even better. It seems like whenever this subject comes up, some (not you I imagine), see any mention of marketing as a heinous attempt at stifling artistic creativity or ignoring the self evident excellence of whatever they’re doing, rather than just a nod to reality. For the record, while I’ve managed to forgive the adults who dragooned me into selling candy as a child, I’m no great advocate of capitalist orthodoxy, but as H.L. said, “The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets.”

The main problem when you create a hype is?

You create expactations.

And then you have to deliver.

Not only to fullfill the hype, but also to satisfy the expextations.

Good strategy and marketing is a fine balancing act.

If you overdo it either way, you are in trouble.

The unfortunate "hard" conclusion is;

After 18 years, there still is not a single error free figure out there.

Quote -
I do think that even if someone is not looking to create the next Vickie, they need to think about marketing, promotion etc. That’s not to deny the virtues you’ve outlined. I just think that however much success you reach through the Costner model, a bit of Don Draper probably wouldn’t hurt – if the figure looks like Christina Hendricks, even better. It seems like whenever this subject comes up, some (not you I imagine), see any mention of marketing as a heinous attempt at stifling artistic creativity or ignoring the self evident excellence of whatever they’re doing, rather than just a nod to reality. For the record, while I’ve managed to forgive the adults who dragooned me into selling candy as a child, I’m no great advocate of capitalist orthodoxy, but as H.L. said, “The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, but that's how the smart money bets.”

Yes, marketing is a huge aspect of it, but again it doesn't take a lot of money to advertise a quality product. There's plenty of ways to market a quality figure for free.

Everyone that uses your figure in their renderings and posts those renders on any public forum or gallery is helping to advertise it and get the word out, whether they realise it or not, cause even if they don't state what model it is they're using, someone is bound to ask them about it eventually.

Plenty of ways to advertise it yourself, just by posting your own images on various sites, like here and DA, for example. Blogs, YouTube, etc.

It helps to already have content out there that people like, cause if anything, Poser users have proven that if they like your work they'll come back for more.

With some creative brainstorming and perserverance there are plenty of other ways to advertise for free or virtually free.

Keeping everything quiet until a day or two before you're ready to release it is really more detrimental than beneficial too. People are so afraid someone might steal their ideas and go do their own thing with it, so they don't say anything. But if you don't say anything then how is anyone going to know your model exists? Certain aspects can be kept confidential if needed, like the inner workings of how you got this or that to function, but still be demonstrated as features. For no-name artists without big company money behind them, the best thing to do is show off your work in as many venues as you can possibly find (so long as you're not spamming and being annoying about it of course). 

As all that grows, money can eventually be set asside for more aggressive ad campaigns.

It's really just common sense. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. 

And if all that doesn't seem like something you're capable of or willing to do, it's too hard or too time consuming or whatever other lame excuse one might dream up, then building your own business as a figure creator probably isn't as important to you as you innitially thought. 

~Shane

Quote - As with all in life. As soon as money gets involved it is doomed.

you might actually be right there. I have noticed that money is kindof taking over in certain areas of the 3D art scene, I don't have a solid example but its a feeling I've been getting.

It sometimes feels like the whole point of 3D art is getting obscured with all these bits and pieces, and these hypes have completely nothing to do with art, it seems. To me the whole point is, well, art. Making a beautiful scene for in a comic, or a nice pinup for people to marvel at. Lately its all merchandise merchandise merchandise merchandise merchandise and no real central goal or theme. people just slap together all their recently purchased content, apply a downloaded pose (don't even bother to pose it themselves), render it, and then call it art???

That's why I praise the software much more than the figures nowadays. The figures aren't really changing, even Dawn is just the same old thing, the content is just pointless at times, but its the software like DS and Poser that is really making advances of USE!

Its like Rembrandt and van Gogh making their own paint, using paintbrushes and oils and knives and other tools. You don't see them buying a set color "pastel salmon pink" for that ONE stroke in the upperleft corner of the Nacht Wacht behind the dude with a sword. No they mix the paint themselves because they have their own idea of what they want, not what the shop gives them. Its so much more original, and fresh. Imagine looking at the Mona Lisa and saying: hey, that's Pete001's smile and RenderKing's dress, I bought that yesterday. Aaahh. Come on!!!

That's also why I rarely use other people's content and just make my own. I don't want people to go, hey that's such-and-such's product in the middle of reading my comic.

So that is also my motivation for making a figure, making her versatile out of the box, almost to the point that you cannot recognise her, and making her immediately useful in the software.

*"*I liken it a bit to flight. At first it was for Mavericks and innovaters. Next, early adaptors."

"Every great cause, begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket." - Eric Hoffer 

There's a lot to be said for reaching your destination without falling out of the sky, but sure, there's always a certain charm to the pioneering days. Computers aren't as 'fun' as they were in the 70s, but then things like incompatible floppy disk formats and every mfgr. with their own OS etc. pretty much sucked. Once anything becomes a commodity, you lose some of that spirit of clubby exclusivity, the joy of new discovewries etc.

3D is still far from the commodity thing that video has become or the internet. It's still more effort than than the masses will bear and looks to remain so if the emphasis continues on reaching for more high end features over the kind of simplicity that mass adoption would require. It will probably happen eventually and then these may seem like the golden days in retrospect. I think there's always some sense of whatever by the old hands once everybody and their sister is doing something, maybe a bit of lost cachet. That may explain some of the negative attitude of someold school 3D folks toward Poser.  

* *

Apropos of nothing perhaps, but Miley Cyrus has just been named "Hottest Woman in the World by Maxim magazine. And yes, she's good looking, but I've certainly seen better.

What does this have to do with this thread? Tastes vary. I would've picked Sofia Vergara or even Naya Rivera (Santana from Glee) as the hottest woman. 

There are appx 6,000,000 perfect 10's in the world, some past their prime, some not there yet.  Adjusting for those, 2,000,000

Finer Point:  2,000,000 9.1 - 10, where actual tens are next to impossible.

Maybe 100,000 9.9ers who are actively and currently hot.

Miley Cyrus is not amongst them, the hair ALONE an instant disqualifier

OT, but I agree.  Miley Cyrus is not unattractive but she is the cuter side of "plain" to me.  Is plain the new hot?

Looks fade just ask Goldie Hawn ,Barbara Eden ,Cheryl Ladd or even Madonna.

I'll always think KISS put there make up back on after they went to a Rolling Stones concert.
and got a good look in the mirror.

Madonna ,Britney Spears ,Miley Cyrus , etc etc .pop rock assembly line entertainment.
Think Miley is attempting to show Britney the correct way to where a shaved head ?

Quote - lmckenzie, a few replies:

Dawn will bridge no gaps or "heal the community", simply because no single figure can work natively in Poser and Studio anymore: The rigging engines of both programs are way too different now.

The only thing "Poser Dawn" and "Studio Dawn" have in common is the object file and the raw textures. Everything else is completey different.

So, to support both, a merchant has to work as hard as if he would make a clothing item that works with both Roxy and Genesis.

That is not correct. Rigging for Dawn in both programs together is not more labor intensive then making V4 content, on one rig.

I think you guys may have missed the point of my post about Miley Cyrus. Let's say that the new figure that the OP suggestted in the first post was based on her.  Show of hands for who ever wouldn't find fault with something about her body. Maybe her breasts down't look quite right, or her lips are too big, nose is crooked, etc.

Point is, real women aren't perfect. Why do we expect the virtual ones to be?

• maybe releasing a "non-genital" version and a 'anatomically correct" version of this universal model would make it more desireable for a larger user base? BTW... Vicki 4 now has about 20 different 3rd party genital morphs available.

• Dawn looks interesting to me but I use Poser Pro 2010 and the Hivewire site says she only works in Poser 9+ ... the limitations on platform use has hurt Genesis I think.

• Miley Cyrus, Kim Kardashian, Alan Alda... I agree with JoeQuick... give a neutral base that then can be easily morphed into anything by 3rd party artists/vendors. If it's released as a Miley Cyrus or some specific body type... it will only appeal to folks seeking that body type.

• question for content creators.... is it easier to rig clothes for 3d people now with Poser 9+ and DAZ 4+  ?? Or is V4 just sucky to make clothes because of her specific rigging?

Before I spend a dollar, she will have to be better then this one.

• Fully welded
• Fully symmetrical
• Single map
• Reasonable poly distribution and polygon flow
• End user friendly

@ Coleman
With the new fitting room and morph brush in PP2014, rigging new clothes or adapting older clothing to any other figure has become super easy.

Quote - Dawn looks interesting to me but I use Poser Pro 2010 and the Hivewire site says she only works in Poser 9+ ... the limitations on platform use has hurt Genesis I think.

The limitations is the difference in Weight Mapping. DS and Poser WM is different. Interestingly DS can export for both. For the rest, DS and Poser still accept old-fashioned CR2. V4 is still the true binding factor. 

Quote - - Miley Cyrus, Kim Kardashian, Alan Alda... I agree with JoeQuick... give a neutral base that then can be easily morphed into anything by 3rd party artists/vendors. If it's released as a Miley Cyrus or some specific body type... it will only appeal to folks seeking that body type.

And that is exactly one of the things that *might *make Dawn a bit of a problem, IMO, that she might be harder to morph into another type of lady because she's already very defined. Roxie is similar to Dawn in that her body is pretty well defined already. I think V4 was in part so succesfull because of her generic bodyshape and face. She is an 'average' looking woman, albeit a 'hot' one.

The skinny toned frame of V4 is also helpful IMO to build on, because in my experience it looks better to add volume to a 3D figure, rather than removing volume. If one does it wrong, unnatural spaces will develop in vital joints as they bend. Dawn's frame is rather solid, broad shoulders, thick thighs, and her face seems very defined, almost masculine, and her polycount is relatively low, which could result in less flexibility in areas that you'd wanna make fat rolls, creases. 

Having said that, Dawn's scaling and most of her joints seem more superior than the standard V4 (with exception of the thigh rotation - epic fail IMO). The scaling allows for more flexibility in bodytypes. So that's a good thing.

But anyway, this is just my experience with V4 and other 3D figures. If I was making a 3D figure, which I am hehe, I'd keep base mesh as featureless as possible so that any morphological additons interfere less with each other.

Quote - - question for content creators.... is it easier to rig clothes for 3d people now with Poser 9+ and DAZ 4+  ?? Or is V4 just sucky to make clothes because of her specific rigging?

No figure is harder than another to make clothing for in my experience. It used to be harder to adapt clothing from one figure to the other, but nowadays Poser and DS have their gadgets to solve those issues.

Quote - Before I spend a dollar, she will have to be better then this one.

• Fully welded
• Fully symmetrical
• Single map
• Reasonable poly distribution and polygon flow
• End user friendly

I agree, except for the map. Why single?

What model is that btw?

Asolutely.

A base figure that's already designed on a particular body shape, or even worse on a paticular person, would be less useful.

One of the things I love about A3 is her default shape is nothing much. But she can be morphed into a huge variety of characters without imposing her own shape on them too much.

My ideal figure would be an upgrade on A3. Not an A3 morph of something else, like the A4 morph for V4 or I think there's some version for Genesis. But a brand new A3 that takes advantage of the new goodies in Poser etc. while keeping the same shape and style of the original.

To save time, I sum it up for you.

It was better before!

Quote - My ideal figure would be an upgrade on A3. Not an A3 morph of something else, like the A4 morph for V4 or I think there's some version for Genesis. But a brand new A3 that takes advantage of the new goodies in Poser etc. while keeping the same shape and style of the original.

attaining the same shape should be easy to do, but I'm afraid it will always be a morphs of something else. Aiko is a pretty specific type of shape.

But now, the question is, what kind of a rig would be best suited to accomodate for all these different shapes. IMO that would be a slender featureless mesh, like a person without fat, just muscles... not so?

The single map seems like a good idea to me...the map sizes are much bigger now thanks to modern computers, so you can use all that space to combine all your maps and just have One Big Map (or OBM) for everything without losing any resolution.

Quote - But now, the question is, what kind of a rig would be best suited to accomodate for all these different shapes. IMO that would be a slender featureless mesh, like a person without fat, just muscles... not so?

The other way around, IMO.  Muscles are definition which is hard to morph out if you want to, whereas doughy fat is easier to morph in to muscles.  Your Polygon flow, though, should delineate where musculature should/would be to some extent.

Quote -
The other way around, IMO.  Muscles are definition which is hard to morph out if you want to, whereas doughy fat is easier to morph in to muscles.  Your Polygon flow, though, should delineate where musculature should/would be to some extent.

Oh, I had the opposite experience. My first quad mesh had the muscles well deliniated, abs, quadriceps, biceps, sternocleido mastoidious, calf muscles... but I actually removed some of the definition because it was hard to smooth out the mesh for smoother body-types. The knots that occur when defining an area in the poly flow become hard to control. So I removed a lot of the definition, but the muscles are still definable. From smooth to defined works better, I think. Unless you really wanna go 'She-Freak', but I'll have to test that.

Poser supports 8192x8192 maps.

LOTS of room to put it all on, and it makes material room work sooooo easy... and end user friendly.

Especially when you reduce the number of material zones to the minimum required.

The above figure has only 3 material zones: (I did that)

• lashes => GC must stay at 1 for the transparancy lashes map
• cornea => No map
• all the rest => Single click to change or adapt all the rest of the figure at once. I have one HSV node in my shader and it does it all.

Could have left the eyes separate, but I have another trick for those.

What figure I used?
Build by Darrel for SM, and all Poser Pro users have it in their runtime, all 8.000 polygons of them. Taxes included. LOL. 

"Poser Pro Lo Res Female" after she went for a visit in Blender.

The texture was worked on to add some details. And custom material room setup.

Just a show off, of what can be done with Low polygon figures "IF" u use each and every polygon.

Happy Posering
Tony

Oh, no, we agree I think.

Let me put it this way...the more you leave the thigh a tapered cylinder with lots of polys, the better.  If you put muscles on the model out of the gate, you have a harder time getting rid of them if you want to.

BUT, your tapered cylinder thigh should have polys flowing in a direction that hints at musculature that can be added/morphed later.  But I suppose if you have enough polys it really doesn't matter, you can make your own flow when you're morphing.

Quote - > Quote - My ideal figure would be an upgrade on A3. Not an A3 morph of something else, like the A4 morph for V4 or I think there's some version for Genesis. But a brand new A3 that takes advantage of the new goodies in Poser etc. while keeping the same shape and style of the original.

attaining the same shape should be easy to do, but I'm afraid it will always be a morphs of something else. Aiko is a pretty specific type of shape.

...

But I was talking about a new figure. Not an A3 morph of another figure.

I think that A3 was a good generic "blank". A new figure in the style of A3, but taking advantage of the improvements since A3, would probably be my ideal.

I'm not too worried about what a figure looks like "out of the box". I'm never going to render that anyway. V4 looked like a monkey in a purple bikini out of the box. I don't think the default figure needs to be attractive, as long as it's versatile.