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Poser - OFFICIAL F.A.Q (Last Updated: 2024 Jul 11 1:35 pm)
Subject: Making a new Female Base Model? Don't want to disappoint? Checklist.
Hey guys, cool, the thread is still going
Just wanna say thanks for all the responses to my posts in this thread (and thanks william for starting the thread). Like I mention in the other thread, I've been busy with comics and helping out Renderotica with their new website. I've been posting some of my stuff over here in the galleries too.
I hope I can resume work on Project E a.s.a.p. Much of the discussion here, and elsewhere, has made me think about how I should continue with Project E. I will definitely need to contact JoePublic because the dude came with some interesting points.
For now, thanks, cheers!
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Hi Erogenesis, I am late seeing this message thread, so, my comment maybe already covered off.
You asked about extra bones, and suggested the abdomen area. Yes, yes please.
We use Poser & Daz for illustration and training in sport - artistic ones such as Gymnastics and others where body and limb movement at critical stages of a movement, are needed accurately - polevault, high jump etc, showing how the bulk of the body shifts weight around its CoG to achieve movement progression. The points of bend, and shape of back, are critical
We have great problems getting figures to bend correctly because they are missing pivot points in a bend from hip to neck. Now, if you could put one for each vertebrae, or each pair, we would really have something behaving naturally.
And that would then allow a more natural twist in the torso, especially a twist and bend. Our problems with bending and twist are greater when we animate these movements. While we can stretch and shrink skin/flesh to make a still pose bend/twist look right, that's a huge amount of work in an animation to get it looking good. And, we want realism, othewise its little more than using stickmen and puppet figures.
For athletes viewing it, we can't mask the skin/body movements with clothes, they need to see it with the figures wearing what they do - that gives a lot of bare torso skin, or skin hugging leotards which are more or less skin, to model. Now with photo-realistic skin mapping making figures look so life-like and fascinating to the end-user, its devalued by unnatural skin movement in the torso.
Yes, we can put the work into getting skin meshes to do what we need. That's workable for a one-off. But then we get asked to make ammended movements, which makes a lot of work for something that should be relatively easy.
We also use the poses in medical process illustrations. We have to morph (its more of a merge) in bone structures and organs. Take for example when we illustrate CPR resuscitation showing the ribcage and chest cavity being depressed by 2" - 40 to 50 times a minute. For realism the back will bend as the sternum (approx centre chest) and ribcage is pressed, the abdomen will be pulled, and the neck will bend, each time the chest is depressed. As the head will be twisted to one side, getting it to then bend up and down relative to the chest, rather than the angle of the head, is currently a problem.
The minimal pivot points from hip to head make it so difficult, we have to use a series on still pose animations of every 200th frame in an animation. If we let the programme in-fill between these frame points, we get odd skin twitches and oddities occuring. Rectifying these causes a twitch in a diffrent place. V4/M4 or later figures, its the same.
Of course, some will say we should be using more professional programmes, MAYA and so-on. It's a cost/income balance.
Any thoughts there re your figure ???? A solution would be really exciting. PM if you wish to.
Quote - Hi Erogenesis, I am late seeing this message thread, so, my comment maybe already covered off.
You asked about extra bones, and suggested the abdomen area. Yes, yes please.
We use Poser & Daz for illustration and training in sport - artistic ones such as Gymnastics and others where body and limb movement at critical stages of a movement, are needed accurately - polevault, high jump etc, showing how the bulk of the body shifts weight around its CoG to achieve movement progression. The points of bend, and shape of back, are critical
We have great problems getting figures to bend correctly because they are missing pivot points in a bend from hip to neck. Now, if you could put one for each vertebrae, or each pair, we would really have something behaving naturally.
ok so from what I make out of your post is that the back is most critical, right?
One thing I need to research is by much does the chest actually bend? Because I have the feeling that the chest vertabrae don't do much because the ribcage holds it in place, correct? So Am I correct in saying that most of the bending comes fromthe vertabrae between the hips and the ribcage? and how deep are these pivots from the surface? Like 5cm into the body?
Ribcage depressions for CPR would be a speciality addon, but not hard to make.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Hi, thanks for a quick reply. Your bending question - sorry if I am too verbose:
Your are correct, the back verts do not bend much, but, they give a gradual bend rather than the 3 current obvious bend points.
It's about the subtle movements that make the natural look. For instance
A person, say gymnast, can twist keeping the lumbar spine (stomach/gut region) straight and only twist the thorax spine (chest region). This will make the ribcage on the side that is twisted forward, project a little over the abdomen in a diagonal flex of the ribcage, and twisting the skin over the abdomen.
The ribcage functions differently from your thought. Each rib has a flexible ligament/cartiledge joint giving rotation where it joins the sternum (the vertical breast plate bone between left and right ribs), and has a simialr joint where it joins the spine. This lets the ribcage to substantially charge shape and distort as the spine twists - and why the rib cage can be depressed 2" in CPR, and why it can expand as we breathe.
So, the ribcage is not the rigid structure fixed to the spine that the figures are modelled on, and I guess it doesn't matter if the figures are clothed. The ribcage does reduce the maximum possible bend and twist of the upper Thorax spine by around 35%
Yes, good guess the centre point of pivot for the vertebrae is about 4 to 5cm max from the outside back.
From the top of the lumbar spine (vertebrae L5) which is around top of stomach, a person can bend so their shoulders are about 25 degrees forward, and about 8 deg backwards, athletes more.
As you say, maximum bend occurs at the hip. Lumbar and Thorax spine together will give a bend of around 45 deg without hip bend, but, obviously gradually, vertebrae by vertebrae.
If you wanted, I could send a medical sudy showing how the ribcage flexes at its joints and chnages shape, I have it in digital archive somewhere - amazingly it was only fully understood how it moves in recent times. Some of Deviant Art's work recognises how the spine and ribcage move.
All this may be taking your new figure into a level of perfection you do not need. But, it would be an exciting one to use. We would certainly buy it.
Were you thinking of a male figure too ??
Regards Jonathan
Quote - If you wanted, I could send a medical sudy showing how the ribcage flexes at its joints and chnages shape, I have it in digital archive somewhere - amazingly it was only fully understood how it moves in recent times. Some of Deviant Art's work recognises how the spine and ribcage move.
All this may be taking your new figure into a level of perfection you do not need. But, it would be an exciting one to use. We would certainly buy it.
Were you thinking of a male figure too ??
yeah definitely scoot me that study. if it had videos, the better. Whether or not it is worth adding to the figure depends on how precievable it is, and how much work it is, and how much of a problem it can pose for conforming clothing. For you it might be instantly precievable but for others not, so I'll have to give it a try.
I want to stick to V4's bending pivots (to max on compatibility) but if I can add a bone or two to V4's current rig and improve her bending, then yeay!
I was initially going for a unimesh but that proved very complex. However, the mesh design is such that a male variant would be very easy to squeeze out of. Enough polys in 'that' area. Concerning poly flow and big freak muscles, hmm, not sure. It would be awesome if I could cater for everyone but my priority is to make a 3D figure that simulates the average human nicely. For freakshows, we've got Genesis.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Thanks, give me a day or three to find it, not sure which computer the archive is in :)
Understand the compatibility issue. Maybe next year we can afford to commission a figure as we would fully like it. It opens up a whole range on new applications for the 3D figures.
Would you be up for that ??
Regards Jonathan
Quote - Understand the compatibility issue. Maybe next year we can afford to commission a figure as we would fully like it. It opens up a whole range on new applications for the 3D figures.
Would you be up for that ??
well, once I have Project E up and running, customizing her for other usages is not that hard thanks to Poser's new technology. One of the main reasons I want to make Project E is so that I can do what I want with her without getting into trouble with DAZ!!! I can make a sports edition of her if I wanted to, with 20 more joints here and there, and release it with no legal issues. So yeah, depending on the demands, I could probably take on such requests.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Quote - Between weightmapping, bulgemapping, the morphbrush and JCMs, PP-2014 gives you full control over the mesh and its joints. But Poser's technology is definitely advanced enough to give you any level of realism you need.
that is indeed VERY true. hey joe, btw, people have been recommending you. Would you like to help out with this figure?
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Quote - > Quote - But Poser's technology is definitely advanced enough to give you any level of realism you need.
Wow, joe! Your examples blow me away. I had no idea you could do that with existing models!
in combination with zBrush, you can do pretty much anything. Lali's Bits is an example of that.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Thanks for input JoePublic, with a real touch toes below, you can see the difference, where the usual 3D figure 3 pivot points cause totally unreal folds in the skin at stomach /chest level, and a different back shape. Its fine it the figure is clothed, doesn't matter. But we have to show it wearing sportswear, mostly bare skin.
The main problem, as in an earlier part of the thread, is the bend/twist replication, and the main issue is how the skin moves which is controlled by the bend points.
Of course I am looking for far more than the usual use of the figures and fantasy type fgures. That's why I asked about commissioning a figure for our use.
As far as I am aware, we are pioneering the use of realistic 3D figures in practical training applications. In Gymnastics, scores are increased by achieving exact body shapes set down in the rules, so, we need to show that.
The human form is beautiful, the way it moves, the shapes and smooth transition from one curve to another. Why shouldn't we want to get as near that as possible. It makes our product more desirable.
I appreciate the various comments.
To go back to another point earlier in the thread today, we are doing animations. Much of what is said is fine for still image poses.
Try doing that that with 30 frames per sec for a 3 minute movement, and we have hundreds of movements to build. You will, I hope, understand our discussion.
About all CGI App's have student,teachers ,schools education version at lowers prices.
If ya have Pro 14 you could rig Rox or Rex anyway you want.
MoCap is best at realistic bends
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Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
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Quote -
The human form is beautiful, the way it moves, the shapes and smooth transition from one curve to another. Why shouldn't we want to get as near that as possible. It makes our product more desirable.
yeah that would be very cool to do.
oh look at the dude's back! you can see the ribcage section clearly bending off. Interesting!
This would be the type of research I'd need to do. I already made a bunch of photos ofmy girlfriend with marker pen lines around her hahaha. Took days to get off.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
The weightmapping and JCMs are an integral part of the rigging, so it doesn't matter if you do still photography or animations, as there is no extra work. Basically bulgemaps help keeping the correct "volume", preventing the mesh from collapsing, while the JCMs do some final smoothing and can add detail like correct "flesh rolls". (Provided the mesh is dense enough/has the right topology to support such detail) The improvements can be done for every joint and every movement, but realistic twisting and "flesh sliding" is Poser's weaker point, even with weightmapping. It's perfectly doable, but here JCMs have to do most of the work, while with bend and side-side movements the bulge/weightmaps do 90% and the JCMs are only for refinement. It doesn't matter so much what mesh is used, although anatomical correct topology helps of course, but how much time is someone willing to invest in the rigging. But once the rigging is finished, Poser has the ability to transfer such a rig into clothing with just a mouseclick or two, so a more complicated/anatomical correct rig is of no disatvantage for the end user. And if done right, neither uses much more system resources than your average rig. Thanks for the kind words, but, sorry, all my energy needs to go into my own projects, so I can't spend any time doing support or help or testing. But if there's a question regarding figure design posted, I usually try to answer it. :-)
Quote - Thanks for the kind words, but, sorry, all my energy needs to go into my own projects, so I can't spend any time doing support or help or testing. But if there's a question regarding figure design posted, I usually try to answer it. :-)
hehe ok, then I know where to find you!
About WM, I've been using it more and more recently but I cannot say that I like it that much. It has its advantages but it has its drawbacks too. It doesn't have the mathematical accuracy that the legacy zones has and I find myself fidgeting in the smallest corners trying to solve a nasty fold. In legacy zones the spheres and capsule provided a reversable situation that could easily be undone in zBrush as a JCM.
Another thing about WM is that it doesn't do lateral bulges, only along the path of rotation. This doesn't have to be a problem straight away but it shows that you cannot get a realistic bend with WM alone. When a knee bends to extreme angles like -150, the volume of the calf and thigh muscles (and fat) gets squashed out sideways. This you can only do with JCMs.
Lali's Bits was all done with Legacy zones. I think I will take the same approach with Project E and thereafter convert to WM, because that seems to be the thing nowadays (plus it will be compatible for DS too). With Poser's 'copy morphs from' its a piece of cake to copy the JCMs to clothing, and they respond too!
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Thanks JoePublic, that is most helpful.
Re the extreme bend Erogenesis, I only posted it out of interst for what some people can do, it's not a 'normal' body position. I hate to think of her lower back and hips conditions when she is 60 !!!
To answer another comment, I use Pro 10, I was about to take the redcued offer for 12 when 14 came out. I am giving that a few months to sort out glitches then take it. I have been working through each version of Poser snice they brought out 'FigureArtist' - 2006 I think.
JCMs are definitely a must ! Weightmaps and bulgemaps can do a lot, but only a JCM can move a vertex into any direction possible. But I see no advantage for falloff zones when it comes to JCMs. I use ColorCurvators MorphLoader to do my JCMs, but GoZ should work just as well. (I have ZBrush, but refuse to upgrade). Creating a JCM takes me basically 5 to 10 minutes, including using the dependency editor. (I once stopped the time for a shoulder JCM. HeHe) Did you create reverse deformations by substracting the influence zones somehow ? That must have been a lot of effort. :-o
"...that's why I won't live to make 60! but it worked haha" * I bought the DAZ Studio 3.0 rigging tools when they were really expensive, but the JCMs created in Studio didn't work well in Poser. Then ColorCurvator came up with PML, and I never looked back. Lol. I knew there were ways to do "manual" reverse defomations, but I never bothered to try them. I did create a lot of JSMs (JointSmoothingMagnets), though, long before DAZ started using them with V4.
Content Advisory! This message contains nudity
There are some creative uses for the unused scaling channels to do bulges a different direction than the deformer angles as well.
Some things are easy to explain, other things are not........ <- Store -> <-Freebies->
Hi Erogenesis, these two are as close as I can get for the bend and twist without clothing concealing the torso. I have some better ones somewhere.
In the first one you can see the skin stretching accross the abdomen.
In the second one, if Poser did the abdomen sideways pivot, it would lift the other side off the ground, but that is not what really happens.
It is also partly because the spine takes on a sidways curvature, and sags towards the ground at abdomen level. The ribcage stops most sideways curvature in the Thoracic region - not that any figure would be expected to give that sort of finesse, just too many points to manipulate.
Quote - There are some creative uses for the unused scaling channels to do bulges a different direction than the deformer angles as well.
hmm, we should talk. Have you seen Lali's Bits? Can you achieve those kind of bends with WM? If you feel you can, we could definitely have a long chat.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
Quote - Hi Erogenesis, these two are as close as I can get for the bend and twist without clothing concealing the torso. I have some better ones somewhere.
most definitely interesting.
There is one thing I really wanna get into Project E. Similar to the first picture there, but when you have a view of the back of a woman, and she twists around, torso and all to look behind her, a long diagonal fold goes from her hip up to her shoulder blades. I see it in a lot of women. I wanna research this properly and replicate it, or at least make it optional.
"The fool is not the one that does something foolish, but the one that does nothing at all."
An interesting search, truly amazing what some people do, or want to do :) No twists and bends were there though, surely that's a part of erotica. We are dependent on what the photographer likes, too often devalued by being overtly crude and sadistic for commercial sex trade.
I know what you mean about the back in a twist. The back and spine is one of the most beautiful parts of the human form, both sexes, such a mixture of curves especially the inward sway of the spine, the dimples where the kidneys are, then into the curve of the buttocks.
Not to miss out the gluteal fat, which is only in the female form, that blends the lower curve of the buttock into the upper thigh in a lovely smooth flow of shape - although some women have an excess of that fat even when a trim figure. For guys that fat is not there and the buttock meets the thigh with a tight angle and crease.
But, then there is the slight curve of the stomach and ... hmmm ... in art terms I think the back wins out ... unless the front is perfectly proportioned.
To clarify, my interest is in the art form rather than erotica, although that can be an art form too, and in many cases beautiful as well. !!!
As for Poser capability, when I have time over next week or two, I will take the great pose below as the starting point, and get Poser to animate the figure bending forward to touch toes - its fairly near to a Gymnastics movement - and see what it does.
Well, I know what will happen, and try to use pulls and bulges etc to rectify. If I let Poser infill between keyframes, and it will need many keyframes, because the limb movements are way outside the limits normally used and the algorithms used do not accomodate such movements, the leg or arm will suddenly stick out of the spine or elsewhere.
Anyone else want to try it :)))
I have collected a few of Russell Flint water colours of his mostly nude studies of women, he knew how capture that magical essence of body shape. Do a Google image search on his name. This is one of them.
I have some of mine on the wall either side of dinner table, it amuses me watching people we have in for a meal, giving surreptitious glances at the paintings without making it obvious they are looking. :)
Sorry, going off topic.
Toastie, so pleased to see someone else using the figures for real life applications and training and instruction. And, thank you for also saying how it is difficult to get the correct torso bends.
The cost of filming live actors, and if poroviding it for global access, the nightmare problems of image rights costs and actor's IPR. Never quite getting the camera angle right.
Then the cost of a re-shoot to change the camera angle, or get the right close-up, or improve the lighting effects. The 3D figures make it so much easier and cheaper, it means we can use these figures to get such a much greater attraction, to what we produce, by the end-user (viewer).
As soon as they produced generation of figures with the 360 deg skin mapping of real people, photo-realistic skin mapping, it transformed the figures and their potential to replace actors.
We need it in animated clips, not stills which can be more easily worked on to get the right look.
Erogenesis, if you can pull this off, I think you will have a product with demand.
Sorry about the hotlinking bit, taking the image from an image search it did not have any copyright notices. I do respect copyright, but, this image is so freely shown.
Here is the pose again, courtesy of Hegre-Art.com for Ellen Nude Yoga. If its blocked again, the website address is http://www.hegregirls.com/models/ellen. But, do an image search on 'Ellen Nude Yoga', for body form a art its really good to show back curvature and twist.
Attached Link: start pose
Sorry about the image linking, it was in an image search and no copyright was marked. I do respect copyright, but, this one was so freely available on the web.Anyway, the image is courtesy of Hegre-Art.com and is at www.hegregirls.com/models/ellen. Do an image search on 'Ellen Nude Yoga' to see examples of body form to help model a figure on.
I have linked the image which is on my server.
I don't actually use them for instructional images, just for illustrations, but it's the same problem. The limitations are too obvious for anyone who dances or knows about dance.
I don't think it would be possible to use the existing figures for instructional poses as I always have to "fudge" the pose anyway to make it work. I did do one series of instructional dance images but I used toon figures for that - since it wasn't going to be possible to have correct poses anyway it was better to make it obvious they wouldn't be completely correct by using toons. It would be amazing to have a figure that can properly mimic a human range of body movement and I agree it opens up a host of new possibilities for Poser. I'd love to be able to create a proper dance series that didn't have to hide body parts under dynamic draperies to cover up all of the pose problems.
Those "Ellen" images are fantastic btw!
As to the debate that was had, oh I wish I could respond to some. But I've rode that ride before and it made me sick.. so to the original statements.
1: Genitalia
For my use, I will not buy another model that isn't male or female to start with. However much some have no use for them, I want them. Tits do not make a woman. So I'm sorry you can't just throw a couple of lady humps on them and call it a day IMO. Well you can, but I'm not going to buy it.
2. Realistic joints:
Yes. For the love of god make the hands work right. I don't care how many bones you have to put in there, I want her to be able to hold things. I want her to be able to DO things with her hands. Feet, the same. Please put enough in there that I can have more than default and shoe poses.
At the same time, please keep in mind those that will be making clothing to support the figure. Don't make it a nightmare. Grouping on toes is something as well. Please keep the groups in the foot area to a minimum.
3. Morphable face and body.
Again YES. I'd prefer that the base mesh was just plain. No outstanding features. Example: Nostrils and Toes on V4. Don't make it ugly either. Dawn is like a 10 drink date.
4. Morphs. All of 'em. Launch with all of them.
Meh on this one, I can see the purpose in launching in two packs. It's understandable. I guess it depends on the price of the package. I think around $30 is good for the base model, $20 for the morphs++, and then extra smaller morph packs should cost a little less unless they include as much. So if you wanted to make it $50 base + morphs that would be understandable. One catch there though. Often a person will want to first buy the base figure to find if they even like it (that's what I did with Dawn) I would not have spent $50 on Dawn out of the gate, and if I had I would be PISSED. Keeping model apart from morphs gives customers a chance to try it out before fully invested. I really didn't mind Daz's business model in this regard.
5. Breasts.
They do all disappoing don't they. I love the idea of starting out with NO breasts and then being able to morph them in. It's easier to add than to take away in this regard. I'd like to see the nipple area connect to breast size in this way too, and then to be able to adjust the nipple individually after. With V4 once you change the breast too much the nipple has those edge lines become so visible. I hate that. Thank god for zbrush.
Also: I'd really like to see launch with one outfit and one hair. They don't have to be the bestest, they don't have to even have more than one texture. But out of the box I'd like to be able to get a feel for how the model is going to work in the major areas.
Before anyone comments on my lack of gallery images, I don't post my images here anymore. As a matter of fact, I don't post here much at all these days. The way this conversation has been attacked and then "handled" are the reasons for that. I made that clear in the poll yet again this year. I'm pretty sure it's irrelevant lol.
I am: aka Velocity3d
I fully support jjrolands request for hands and feet improvement, and an 'out of the box' reasonably good looking hair, and clothes outfit.
If you give the figure as discussed at $50, I would not hesitate to buy, it would save me $50 (even £50 in my case) in the first day or two's work time - sorry to others if that comment pushes the price higher. Sometimes more expensive is really cheaper.
Feet: yes! I'd like to see the feet flange out when the figure is standing barefoot on a hard surface. Almost impossible to do with the current figures.
Same for buttocks - she needs to be able to sit on a hard surface (think a wooden chair, or a stone bench).
I've tried Bullet Physics to get these effects, and it's a pain. Haven't got any usable results yet.
Soft seats are less of a problem, magnets can deform the cushion realistically enough for my purposes.
Hands: yes! I'd like to see a fine mesh at the finger joints, and have realistic creases and wrinkles. Thumb movement in the current figures isn't realistic at all, if you can do a better job I'll buy Project E straight away. You might want to explore the concept of "illegitimate welds", welds between body parts that don't have a parent-child relationship. Realistic moving hands might need that concept.
Toes and toe bones - I'd say you'd need a separate bone (maybe two) for the big toe. Don't go overboard with toe bones like in the P5 stock figures Don and Judy, it doesn't add enough value for the extra amount of posing work. Unless Project E has to play the piano with her feet of course.
A fairly generic body and head shape with good edgeloops so you can morph the heck out of her sounds like a good idea. And if you're going to market the figure and the morph separately, add some morphs, including an "attractive" face and body to the base figure. It'll get you more customers from the get go.
Low distortion UV mapping is a must IMO. Not only for texture maps, also for UV dependent shaders.
As for the amount of material zones, let's keep it reasonable. The reason for the many zones in the DAZ figures was to provide for second skin clothing options - which isn't needed. A single material zone for the skin, separate mat zones for the eyes and nails, that should be good enough.
Make the cornea separate bodyparts. Why? So you can turn off the shadows and use a Fresnel shader in the refraction input.
Everything on the same 8K x 8K map? Please don't. The Octane render engine is gaining popularity, and image maps this size just won't work well with Octane.
Copying the joints of V4 isn't needed IMO. A quick trip to the fitting room should take care of converting V4 clothing for Project E.
And I agree with the poster who advised to base it on P9/2012 and onward. It would be a shame to "dumb her down" and lose the advantages of the modern Poser tech just in order to accommodate older tech.
This is just my take on what a new figure should have. Anyway, Project E looks VERY promising!
The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter
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There, their, and they're are normally pronounced the same, and yeah, I know it ain't correct, neither is the word ain't. But those three words, or two words and a contraction, can have as many as five different meanings. Not interchangable.
Got me beat there, I've only got a nine inch BW for a montor. An Atari with the basic programming cartridge maybe? (Same monitor) Or an Apple IIe with the original green screen? Complete with the single button mouse?
Doric.
The "I" in Doric is Silent.