Before I start I don't want people to argue or say somethings better than something else, this is only to have a nice discussion and perhaps Smith micro may hear of this. anyways today I watched a video on youtube about ManuelbastioniLAB 1.6.0 for blender, to say I was impressed was an understatement, and it's free, but that's not the point. I love poser and have been a poser users since poser2, I know times change, but I can't help but feel it is being left behind, and with every new release they seam to miss the mark, I would so love to see poser with better animation, hair, figures, muscles, etc, especially when other software is doing it for free. You can't help but notice there has been a shift from poser over the last few years and it's popularity dwindle, this saddens me. where do you see poser going? lets hope smith micro adds some big wow factors to poser for the new version (if there is going to be another version), or maybe a complete reworking.

Poser still works well enough from my personal perspective. I post my renders and experiments over at deviantart, not here, so I for one may not seem to have much activity, but yes, I am poser-ing a lot everyday.

Just my opinion but if Smith Micro doesn't wake up soon and realize that they are falling father and father behind of the competition they will be out of business. Do not attack me for telling what I see as the truth. The competition is offering their programs for free. Then they are offering some really great characters. What is S.M. offering? Two of the dorkiest characters ever created. They seem to think that people will use V4 and M4 forever.

drafter69 posted at 2:35PM Mon, 06 November 2017 - #4317464

Just my opinion but if Smith Micro doesn't wake up soon and realize that they are falling father and father behind of the competition they will be out of business. Do not attack me for telling what I see as the truth. The competition is offering their programs for free. Then they are offering some really great characters. What is S.M. offering? Two of the dorkiest characters ever created. They seem to think that people will use V4 and M4 forever.

I think part of the problem is Poser's dependence on characters. If they add something truly new to the program there have to be new figures incorporating that feature, or it's as if the feature doesn't exist. Weight mapping, bullet physics... Those did nothing to improve existing figures. Yeah, you could weight paint Don if you wanted to, or you could set up bullet physics for Judy if you wanted to. But it would really have been nice to have some kind of way to transfer weights and physics across different figures. I'd have liked some kind of t-pose cage, one for males and one for females, that I could scale to any t-pose figure and then "project" weight and physics to my figure. The same thing could be done to transfer textures if they really wanted to (and if they weren't at the mercy of other peoples' rendering code).

It looks like I'm not alone in my thinking, although Poser is nothing without its own figures, these figures need weight mapping and muscle support right out of the box. but that's neither here nor there, I see no attempt or murmors or rumours from smith micro on what they plan to do, personally it think a ground up rebuild of poser with figures that I have stated with a new website along the lines of what Daz has, I know they already have content paradise, but this put me off from day one.

In my opinion and as Drafter, said one of the huge let downs have been the characters that is supplied with Poser and if I were Smith micro I think I would change business strategy a little. Stop making so many different releases of Poser, like a Pro version etc. Make one version and sell it cheaper than it is now. Make sure that it releases with up to date characters, stop adding all those old Poser characters, but rather a few top characters/animals etc. They need to fix the face room again, the idea behind it was very cool. Add cameras that you can control in the viewpoint and same with lights (know you can do it already, but its not working very smooth i think). Make it possible to customize viewport navigation, so you can use the same controls as in other software for navigating the viewport, like 3ds max, maya etc. Improve the cloth rooms (wont go into details, but basically more options.) Update the material library with more Superfly shaders. Make the character pivot point easier to work with, so you faster can pose and move stuff around the viewport. Particle effect system is needed as well. Obviously they dont have to do all the stuff at once, but they should aim towards it.

Assuming they reduced the cost of Poser, what they should do instead, is selling high quality characters and animals that works well in Poser and are designed to work with the face room and so forth. I don't think its extremely bad that Poser is not on the front with all the newest features etc. Because as new features or more features are added it also requires a lot more from the users, which again might scare some people away that are using Poser because its fairly easy to use compared to other applications.

And as the OP mentioned about ManuelbastionIlab for blender, it looks cool, but at least from what I have seen its not mind blowing and looking at the workspace for setting it up, I doubt its anywhere as easy as in Poser. And not to have a bash at Blender as I really like the idea behind it being free. But after trying it and having to restart it 10-15 times in 20 minutes due to the user interface being the most weird user interface I have ever tried in a program. Im fairly sure that using Manuelbas.Ilab is not a walk in the park, if you dont already know blender :D (But have to say that I havent tried it so, Its just a guess and I might very well be wrong.)

Part of the problem with you guys is that you're looking at Poser from only one perspective. For you, If Poser doesn't have killer figures for you to use and render with, you see a failing product.. And yes, I will agree that a lot of people have joined you in that view. But as I said, it' only one view., and thankfully, not mine. Figures have never been the reason I buy Poser. Frankly, neither has rendering. Poser has lot's of features, that I'm still discovering. And DAZ has to literally give away the one thing that you all claim is so much better than Poser. You can also bet that if Poser does go under, Studio will stop being free the next day. People have been predicting Poser's demise now for the last 9 years, and yet it's still here. Look, if you guys want to see doom and gloom in the future, I won't try to stop you, but could you take it somewhere else? Because you're harshing my buzz.

People have been predicting the demise of Poser since at least Dec 2004 that I am personally aware of. Poser has outlasted multiple software houses and keeps on trucking. Poser isn't what drives the Profit/Loss statements at Smith Micro. The entire graphics division covers about 10% of the company's revenue. It's a "hobby" for them.

Folks don't seem to grasp is that DS & Poser have different business models. Daz puts all of their new tech into the characters - Poser puts the tech in the program.

This means that as a Poser user, we can use the figure we like; we can quickly & easily update a legacy figure. That isn't an option on the other platform. Think the facial bones in the G3 figures are neat? In Poser, one can easily add an equivalent (control surfaces) to any figure that doesn't have them. I've added them to my g1 & g2 figures, something that one can't do on the other platform. The 1st weight mapped figure that worked in Cararra wasn't a Daz figure, it was a SM figure (Alyson 2).

Poser figures are designed to show off the new technology in the Poser application; they aren't designed to do pin-up art (Although they certainly can do that). That is why we see the Poser figures in things like TV production, airline safety cards, and scanners at the local grocery store.

The hobbyist vendors love the g figures, because DS users buy the same products over and over. If they want the alleged greatest tech in the latest figure, they have to. It is a lot less work for vendors and most of the costs are already sunk. Some content for g3 was made originally for P6 Jesse & Miki 1020 - I know, because I have those original products.

As a Poser user, nearly everything can be grist for the mill. Wanna move clothing content from 1 figure to another - you have multiple ways of doing it. Wanna move hair from 1 figure to another? Add-ons are available. Found the perfect skin texture, but it was made for another figure? You can move it.

I could drop $18 - 25 bucks on each outfit for a new figure, or I can simply spend a few minutes of my time - and spend that money elsewhere - in my case, on content I don't already own for a new figure - which tends to be shoes. Shoes are the one thing that still has a fairly complex conversion process. Still can be done, but isn't at the 1 - 3 click steps everything else is.

Poser's future is bright - we're just hanging out waiting on Project E to arrive.

drafter69 posted at 6:12AM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317464

Just my opinion but if Smith Micro doesn't wake up soon and realize that they are falling father and father behind of the competition they will be out of business. Do not attack me for telling what I see as the truth. The competition is offering their programs for free. Then they are offering some really great characters. What is S.M. offering? Two of the dorkiest characters ever created. They seem to think that people will use V4 and M4 forever.

This is one singularly ill-informed comment. You want SM to give Poser away for free? How will giving away the one thing that makes them money and keeps them in business, keep them from going out of business? No, seriously, I want to hear this brilliant well thought out plan.

//Poser figures are designed to show off the new technology in the Poser application; they aren't designed to do pin-up art (Although they certainly can do that). That is why we see the Poser figures in things like TV production, airline safety cards, and scanners at the local grocery store.//

I agree with you to some point, but nothing prevent them from supplying high quality characters with Poser for each release, and it would make sense since a huge amount of their users are hobbyist, last release they did add 2 characters, which had some new features and so on. But it makes little sense to show off new features on characters that are bugged and not even close to the same quality of figures already on the market. If I remember right one of the new features were the facial controls, but this as far as I know, have not been adopted or used in any other character, so these features seems to be stuck in Paul and Pauline, which is sad. Because had these characters been good quality people would have used them. So its good to add all these things within the program but if they ain't used, its of little use and these features are aimed towards the hobbyist and not those using Poser for fliers, tv adds etc. In my country whenever a Poser character turns up on TV its one of the very old one and its clear that these people are not in need of these features.

Your last comment about waiting for Project E, i think is shared by a lot of Poser users, but to me this would be a most welcome character for Poser, but it shouldn't or didn't have to be necessary, had Poser released with decent characters. Project E in my opinion should be something that people should look at as a very nice addition to a library already filled with good quality figures released with Poser.

3D-Mobster posted at 7:49AM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317499

//Poser figures are designed to show off the new technology in the Poser application; they aren't designed to do pin-up art (Although they certainly can do that). That is why we see the Poser figures in things like TV production, airline safety cards, and scanners at the local grocery store.//

I agree with you to some point, but nothing prevent them from supplying high quality characters with Poser for each release, and it would make sense since a huge amount of their users are hobbyist, last release they did add 2 characters, which had some new features and so on. But it makes little sense to show off new features on characters that are bugged and not even close to the same quality of figures already on the market. If I remember right one of the new features were the facial controls, but this as far as I know, have not been adopted or used in any other character, so these features seems to be stuck in Paul and Pauline, which is sad. Because had these characters been good quality people would have used them. So its good to add all these things within the program but if they ain't used, its of little use and these features are aimed towards the hobbyist and not those using Poser for fliers, tv adds etc. In my country whenever a Poser character turns up on TV its one of the very old one and its clear that these people are not in need of these features.

Your last comment about waiting for Project E, i think is shared by a lot of Poser users, but to me this would be a most welcome character for Poser, but it shouldn't or didn't have to be necessary, had Poser released with decent characters. Project E in my opinion should be something that people should look at as a very nice addition to a library already filled with good quality figures released with Poser.

With all due respect, and even conceding some of your observations, let's not forget a couple of points. Poser was never meant to be a character driven program. It just kind of evolved that way. DAZ, in fact, was a spin-off of the company that first supplied Poser with it's original figures. And trust me, I have NOT been shy about criticisizing SM's lack of response to the growing threat of Studio. But in Poser's defense, Poser is just a small part of the SM machine. To be frank, I'm honestly starting to believe that SM is holding Poser back.

This is one singularly ill-informed comment. You want SM to give Poser away for free? How will giving away the one thing that makes them money and keeps them in business, keep them from going out of business? No, seriously, I want to hear this brilliant well thought out plan.

No one is saying give the program away for free but if Smith Micro thinks that all they have to do is create a program and then "others" will create assets that compare with other companies they are kidding themselves. My guess is that 99% of both Daz Studio and Poser users are hobbyists. Daz is adapting to the hobbyist while poser seems to think that they have no reason to adapt to the current user. I can only speak for myself but I jumped on the Daz bandwagon because of the content. If S.M. wants to live with M4 and V4 forever that's up to them but that thinking is want cost them a customer.. me!

//With all due respect, and even conceding some of your observations, let's not forget a couple of points. Poser was never meant to be a character driven program. It just kind of evolved that way. DAZ, in fact, was a spin-off of the company that first supplied Poser with it's original figures. And trust me, I have NOT been shy about criticisizing SM's lack of response to the growing threat of Studio. But in Poser's defense, Poser is just a small part of the SM machine. To be frank, I'm honestly starting to believe that SM is holding Poser back.//

But does it matter what it used to be or who copied who? Thats a lot of years ago now, Poser today is character driven as I see it and is its strongest feature. Everything evolve around the ability to use characters and figures. Whether they are humans or varies objects. The ability to import and work with these in order to create art is crucial for Poser I think. If Poser were only able to work with primitives supplied with Poser, there would be no use for it. I don't want to sound like im criticizing Poser as these discussion often gets misunderstood. I see nothing wrong in this, it might help SM to see what users want and don't want. And personally I don't see a problem between the varies program, I use those that will get the job done, doesn't matter if that envolve both Daz and Poser etc. What annoys me is that they cant find common ground so things made in one program would work equally well in the other.

Well, enjoy Poser as you seem determined to defend it to the end. Personally I think Smith Micro will drop it or sell it off. That's my opinion.

"What annoys me is that they cant find common ground so things made in one program would work equally well in the other." Why would two competitors want to work together? Most businesses do not want to play nice with other businesses.

drafter69 posted at 12:05PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317516

Well, enjoy Poser as you seem determined to defend it to the end. Personally I think Smith Micro will drop it or sell it off. That's my opinion.

I will and certainly do. I'm curious, just what do you do with Poser? And I don't think SM will just stop developing Poser. I f any thing I agree with you that they're more likely to sell it. Despite the gloom and doom scenario you paint for it, Poser is actually doing pretty well for SM. It's other stuff they do that's actually dragging them down.

3D-Mobster posted at 12:11PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317514

I see nothing wrong in this, it might help SM to see what users want and don't want. And personally I don't see a problem between the varies program, I use those that will get the job done, doesn't matter if that envolve both Daz and Poser etc. What annoys me is that they cant find common ground so things made in one program would work equally well in the other.

You seriously think that tying Poser to Studio's development would be a good thing? Studio is in constant beta. Poser would have to wait and see what they came up with next, and because of obligations they already have in place, they can't just get rid of some stuff. As I've said before, I'm not irrevocably tied to any one figure. I can and do find PLENTY of content for Poser to create the kind of renders I want to do. And if I can't find it, I could quite possibly model it for myself. So I have no problems.

You can also bet that if Poser does go under, Studio will stop being free the next day"

Sir Please explain from logical business economic perspective, why you keep repeating this gratuitous claim. (oh.. and sorry but " Daz is an evil greedy company", is not a valid explaination)

Will blender suddenly cost money because poser disappeared? what about the free Unity or unreal engine??. please make the connection for us here, from a rational business perspective not a wishful emotional one

The great majority of Poser&Daz user are still framers So if SM's focus is on the software why implement bullet & soft bodyphysics such dynamics only really look good in animated movies.

Poser needs native figures that new users and merchants will embrace this did NOT happen widely for Sydney,simon ,alison,ryan rex roxy ,paul pauline et al.

People can croon all they want about how easy it is to use the legacy figures etc. But poser needs to grow its user base and that wont happen with native figures that are not embraced by the content producers and by NEW incoming users.

wolf359 posted at 1:19PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317533

You can also bet that if Poser does go under, Studio will stop being free the next day"

Sir Please explain from logical business economic perspective, why you keep repeating this gratuitous claim. (oh.. and sorry but " Daz is an evil greedy company", is not a valid explaination)

Never said it was. I'd like to see how you think I said or thought that.

Will blender suddenly cost money because poser disappeared? what about the free Unity or unreal engine??. please make the connection for us here, from a rational business perspective not a wishful emotional one

I can't draw a connection that doesn't exist, Wolf. Blender and Poser aren't even remotely connected together.

Poser and Studio though share a market. If Poser disappeared tomorrow, what would be the reason to give Studio away fro free? Right now, that decision is based on the inducement to lure new users and old users away from Poser and to using Studio. What led me to this conclusion? History, dude. Studio wasn't always free, you remember. Used to cost roughly the same as Poser. The free part of it was only supposed to last a short while. I didn't say this, DAZ did. DAZ decided to continue that business model when Studio's downloads began to increase and more new users came aboard. The reason I believe that Studio would no longer be free if Poser disappeared is because there's no reason to make it free. It would make no sense economically to keep it as a free program. It doesn't have to return to it's old price point, but there's no reason to keep it free either.

The great majority of Poser&Daz user are still framers So if SM's focus is on the software why implement bullet & soft bodyphysics such dynamics only really look good in animated movies.

On the other hand, DAZ is also introducing those same features into Studio and their main focus is content. So I'm not really seeing your point.

Interesting comments but since Smith Micro has never given me the feeling that they give a crap about what people are saying so 'time will tell"

Smith Micro's Poser integrated features from Blender's Cycle engine. Has anyone looked at the new upcoming Evee engine? I hope (once Blender has all the bugs out of it) that SM consider's adding it as a feature. For animators it would be a huge addition as it does a faster realtime render than ray tracing previews. It is amazingly fast. Primarily it looks to be used for gaming rendering but it can and will most likely be used for full renders, as well as super fast preview renders! Who hasn't been made crazy by a preview render that took too long in either program?

Sadly both software developers don't really talk very much about upcoming builds or features. Here's a good question. Does anyone like hearing or reading roadmap news about future builds and development? I do, and read things like Firefox's upcoming builds. BTW, Nov 14, Firefox Quantum is coming so be aware some Firefox features may change drastically (speed yes, extensions and addons... well... sad some may stop working).

EClark1894

Studio is in constant beta.

It's not constantly in beta any more than any other program in the process of being developed. There are stable releases, and they are soon followed by beta releases. That is something you can do when you are giving the program away, and technically SM do the same thing as we are always waiting on SRs to fix things. If you don't like using beta software, limit yourself to the most recent stable release. Just don't disingenuously make it sound like the program is in some kind of perpetually unusable state.

wolf359 posted at 8:14PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317533

The great majority of Poser&Daz user are still framers So if SM's focus is on the software why implement bullet & soft bodyphysics such dynamics only really look good in animated movies.

Poser needs native figures that new users and merchants will embrace this did NOT happen widely for Sydney,simon ,alison,ryan rex roxy ,paul pauline et al.

People can croon all they want about how easy it is to use the legacy figures etc. But poser needs to grow its user base and that wont happen with native figures that are not embraced by the content producers and by NEW incoming users.

Gee, I wonder why most users are still framers... Outdated viewport, slow CPU based rendering, native cloth and hair simulations that take way too long to learn and set up properly. If Poser had a viewport like blender's Eevee I guarantee more people would start animating. But I could not disagree more with the importance of dynamics to still framing. When a person is seated, the buttocks deform differently according to surface... Breasts take a different shape when a woman is standing, leaning or laying down... Hair should fall naturally over the body and clothing... These aren't things that should have to be "fixed" for each and every frame with a morph, magnets, or the morph brush. Without actually modernizing the way figures work, without something like elastic implicit skinning to fix joint creasing and the intersections that occur in the most basic of poses, what exactly can new figures really bring to the table? I don't get the figure obsession. I mean sure, some are better than others, but I just don't imagine there will ever be a single figure that suits everyone's needs equally. What is now considered the best figure for Poser, and why is it not good enough? The problem with the legacy figures is that they should have been updated with each release in which they were part of the provided content, or left as an optional download with clear warnings regarding use. The community has made numerous improvements to a number of the official figures, it's a shame that none of those improvements ever make it back into the supplied content. Maybe if the base figures for every release were properly weight mapped, had soft bodies set up, didn't use Poser4 materials etc. their inclusion in the official content would actually be a selling point.

EClark1894 posted at 3:02AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317527

3D-Mobster posted at 12:11PM Tue, 07 November 2017 - #4317514

I see nothing wrong in this, it might help SM to see what users want and don't want. And personally I don't see a problem between the varies program, I use those that will get the job done, doesn't matter if that envolve both Daz and Poser etc. What annoys me is that they cant find common ground so things made in one program would work equally well in the other.

You seriously think that tying Poser to Studio's development would be a good thing? Studio is in constant beta. Poser would have to wait and see what they came up with next, and because of obligations they already have in place, they can't just get rid of some stuff. As I've said before, I'm not irrevocably tied to any one figure. I can and do find PLENTY of content for Poser to create the kind of renders I want to do. And if I can't find it, I could quite possibly model it for myself. So I have no problems.

I don't think Poser should follow in the heels of Daz studio just as I don't think Daz should follow Poser. But Daz must have had great success in selling their models to Poser users as well as Daz users. Since they are not making any money selling Daz studio in it self. Obviously with the development of the new Genesis characters, Im not pointing fingers as Daz, as they should develop their software to be able to work with the type of characters that they believe are the best regardless of Smith Micro, anything else would be stupid. So maybe "find common ground" is a bad word and can see why it gets misunderstood, But what I mean is that Smith micro should have reacted with an update that would allow Poser to import these new genesis characters with ease, since it obviously was demanded by a lot of poser users after the disappointment of Paul and Pauline. And if Smith Micro are not interested in releasing decent characters, at least they should make it so it can use Daz ones. But I personally think they should do both, make their own characters and make support for Daz ones and hopefully Daz would make support for Posers as well, should it be needed or demanded by their users. That is what i meant with finding common grounds.

moogal posted at 1:54AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317562

If Poser had a viewport like blender's Eevee I guarantee more people would start animating.

Not necessarily. A real time renderer would be great in Poser, but one factor I think you might be missing there is poly count. How well does Eevee handle 1million+ poly count scenes? Poser content artists tend to often ignore this aspect of content creation, but there's a ton of content out there that has tens of thousands of polys, sometimes hundreds of thousands, and that sort of content doesn't function too well in a real time engine. In fact it can bring your system to its knees if you don't have a high end machine. I've seen hair models with upwards of 300K polys. Once you dress a single figure in Poser, with hair, shoes, clothes, accessories, you could quite easily be approaching the 500K - 1million poly count, and that's without adding in additional clothed figures, buildings and other props. The reason real time rendering works so well in game engines is because most game engines use very low poly models. Poser generally does not. You also don't see weight mapped joints in game engines because that again draws on processor resources that are needed for the rendering engine to do its job.

Not saying it's impossible, or shouldn't be a requested feature, but content artists would have to start learning how to build models more efficiently, and users would have to start learning how to decimate their models - once the decimation tools that currently exist get refined.

moogal posted at 10:24AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317550

EClark1894

Studio is in constant beta.

It's not constantly in beta any more than any other program in the process of being developed. There are stable releases, and they are soon followed by beta releases. That is something you can do when you are giving the program away, and technically SM do the same thing as we are always waiting on SRs to fix things. If you don't like using beta software, limit yourself to the most recent stable release. Just don't disingenuously make it sound like the program is in some kind of perpetually unusable state.

Gee, wonder where I might have gotten that idea? Oh, I know... And I never said Studio was in a perpetually unusable state. Those are your words. You use 'em, then take all the credit for them.

From the DAZ Studio Software forum:

General Release, Public Build, BETA... What is the difference?

General Release and Public Build are release channels, while BETA is a phase of development.

Daz Studio is distributed through five separate channels:

**•General Release **- This channel is where the production ready build is distributed, and is open to the general public.

**•Publishing Build **- This channel is where [optional] builds that are not considered ready for General Release, but are considered stable enough to introduce into a production environment by early adopters, are provided to our Published Artists—determined by the Publishing department. This channel typically provides a build that is in the BETA or Release Candidate (RC) phase of development.

**•Public Build **- This channel is where the builds that are not considered stable yet are provided for testing by the general public. This channel typically provides a build that is in the BETA phase of development, but technically can provide a build in the ALPHA phase.

**•Private Build **- This channel is similar to the Public Build channel, except it is limited to a select group of individuals that serve as the "front line" or the "canary in a coal mine" for a time before the build is promoted to a less restricted channel. This channel is more likely to see an ALPHA build than the Public Build channel is.

**•Dev Build **- This channel provides "bleeding edge" ALPHA builds; sometimes referred to as the "nightly build"; although the builds are not limited to one per night or to strictly occurring at night.

As far as I can see there's not much difference between each of these stages except for how it's distributed. That's not me saying it, it's THEM.

And for the record, I don't often update Poser's SRs. If my program's working fine for me, I'm good with it.

Poser and Studio though share a market. If Poser disappeared tomorrow, what would be the reason to give Studio away fro free?

The same reason that exists now ..a low cost of entry for CONTENT CREATORS and new users to have a place to sell and buy and use daz CONTENT straight away.

Right now, that decision is based on the inducement to lure new users and old users away from Poser and to using Studio. What led me to this conclusion? History, dude. Studio wasn't always free, you remember. Used to cost roughly the same as Poser. The free part of it was only supposed to last a short while. I didn't say this, DAZ did..

You are revising history or possibly projecting your own fantasies to supplant the actual facts.

Daz promised there will away be a free "base version" of studio there has always been a free version, even during that period when the so called "pro"version was over $300 USD near the end of Dan farr's tenure.

The new parent company took over and realized that a constant income stream can be had from new daily & weekly figure content in thier store.

They quicky dropped the price of DS "pro" to zero and offered a full refund/or store credit to people who paid for the "Pro "version within a certain grace period

The reason I believe that Studio would no longer be free if Poser disappeared is because there's no reason to make it free.

This is yet more wishful thinking that is based on your personal desire to believe that the QUALITY of the native figures are not a factor at all only the Free price of the program makes Daz studio an attractive option

This also assumes that Poser is Daz's only true paid competition this is a false assumption as Iclone Pro is a more viable competior for DAZ inc. as it improves its native figures and supports genesis1,2, 3,8 natively for animation an export to games& other pro applications for rendering. SEE VIDEO https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDQIxCVcHyM

It would make no sense economically to keep it as a free program.

You say this because your understanding of economic business models is sadly quite limited.

Daz is using a classic, old school "loss leader" business model. You lead with a money losing asset by offering it free .

Free DAZ studio. Free Smart phone hand set Free bowl of peanuts at the bar

You recoup your initial loss with Paid figure content , morphs & props(Daz)

paid monthly Data Charges and other useless add ons like"live" TV(phones)

Ridiculously over priced& watered down drinks to quench the thirst caused by those dry starchy "free"peanuts (the Bar).

EClark1894 posted at 11:18AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317582

As far as I can see there's not much difference between each of these stages except for how it's distributed. That's not me saying it, it's THEM.

If you'd ever been a tester for any major software - free or paid - then you'd understand the distinct differences between each of those stages. You'd also understand that Poser and every other piece of software out there goes through nearly the exact same process, with every major release and every service update. The only real difference I can see between Poser and DS in this process is that DS has a public beta period (Which I only discovered recently during the release of 4.10) while Poser does not. How about let's not create baseless arguments where there doesn't need to be one.

AmbientShade posted at 1:02PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317589

EClark1894 posted at 11:18AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317582

As far as I can see there's not much difference between each of these stages except for how it's distributed. That's not me saying it, it's THEM.

If you'd ever been a tester for any major software - free or paid - then you'd understand the distinct differences between each of those stages. You'd also understand that Poser and every other piece of software out there goes through nearly the exact same process, with every major release and every service update. The only real difference I can see between Poser and DS in this process is that DS has a public beta period (Which I only discovered recently during the release of 4.10) while Poser does not. How about let's not create baseless arguments where there doesn't need to be one.

You know, it's interesting. I've actually been tougher on SM and Poser in this thread, and no one says a word in disagreement. In fact most they're saying worse things. The worst thing I've said about Studio is that it's in "constant beta". And I'm attacked and rebuked as not knowing what I'm talking about , my "wishful thinking", and "revising history" oh and creating "baseless arguments" that is based on stuff I've read and quoted from people who should know, the people at DAZ.

I especially like the part where Wolf 359 just for some reason assumed that I have a problem with Genesis's Quality. I've never said one bad thing about Genesis EVER. I've never even said anything bad about Studio But I guess that's the nature of debates on the internet, don't argue the facts, just insult your opponent. That's okay. I'm used to it. Happened in the thread where I disagreed about making Dr. Who a woman. Got called a misogynist in that one. Talk about a "baseless argument". No one disagreed in that thread either. Funny isn't it?

By the way, the person who apparently thinks I'm "revising history", I never asked for or bought Daz 4.xx Pro, but they manually added it to my product library.

But this was in the product copy.

"Simply put, this makes up the most powerful collection of 3D software available for FREE for a limited time." "Limited time"? Now where have I heard that before? Well, what do I know? I'm just a liar who's making stuff up and revising history, and oh yes, my " understanding of economic business models is sadly quite limited".

Where Poser is going? I never knew it had feet to walk? LOL.

EClark1894 posted at 9:27PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317597

The worst thing I've said about Studio is that it's in "constant beta". And I'm attacked and rebuked as not knowing what I'm talking about.

I wasn't attacking you, nor did I specifically state that you didn't know what you're talking about. The "constant beta" myth has been batted around for a number of years now, mostly by the anti-daz crowd, and it perpetuates arguments that lead to getting threads locked and deleted, and prevents any of us from having a mature, open discussion about the state of Poser and it's issues without it breaking down to insults and personal attacks. The 'constant beta' argument is simply not true. No more so than it is true of any other software out there, including Poser. So it would be nice to see it stop being stated as though it were truth.

AmbientShade posted at 8:23PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317628

EClark1894 posted at 9:27PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317597

The worst thing I've said about Studio is that it's in "constant beta". And I'm attacked and rebuked as not knowing what I'm talking about.

I wasn't attacking you, nor did I specifically state that you didn't know what you're talking about. The "constant beta" myth has been batted around for a number of years now, mostly by the anti-daz crowd, and it perpetuates arguments that lead to getting threads locked and deleted, and prevents any of us from having a mature, open discussion about the state of Poser and it's issues without it breaking down to insults and personal attacks. The 'constant beta' argument is simply not true. No more so than it is true of any other software out there, including Poser. So it would be nice to see it stop being stated as though it were truth.

By all means, let us know when it gets to feature freeze. Anytime something doesn't work, the 1st response is that the feature is in beta.

Or gets proper documentation - FInd someone to help you isn't exactly the definition of proper documentation.

"By all means, let us know when it gets to feature freeze. Anytime something doesn't work, the 1st response is that the feature is in beta."

My God, then Poser must be in alpha stages. I won't go there on features that are still broken and didn't work properly when officially released. No comment on the broken figures.

"Or gets proper documentation - FInd someone to help you isn't exactly the definition of proper documentation."

Who cares about proper documentation? You can get faster answers by asking fellow users rather than trolling through a chapter in a manual regarding your issue that only vaguely describes a process. If you happy with old traditional methods then fine, but more and more people ask live questions regarding issues and get quicker responses. And the forums are active enough to make that process work are they not? And there are plenty of youtube tutorials which cover basically everything, and in more detail than a manual or proper documentation ever could. Posers manual is quite extensive yet many users still prefer to ask questions via the forums. That tells you how viable proper documentation really is among the general public. Most won't even bother to read chapters when they can just make a forum post and fellow users will give them the answers they looking for.

MartinX posted at 11:58AM Thu, 09 November 2017 - #4317642

Most won't even bother to read chapters when they can just make a forum post and fellow users will give them the answers they looking for.

Yes that's the world today: "Im just too lazy to waste my time reading a manual by myself. I rather go to a forum and let other people waste their time to solve my problems."

Very nice, really.

Umm it is no more effort than you responding to my post? Same amount of time taken:) My point is documentation just gives basic functions of features, but does not explain how to do something specific to most user requests. That get's answered quicker via formats such as forums. And FYI those who respond want to help, nobody forces them to. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a community if everyones response was "read the documentation" whenever a question was asked.

I especially like the part where Wolf 359 just for some reason assumed that I have a problem with Genesis's Quality. I've never said one bad thing about Genesis EVER.

I havent assumed you dont like the quality of the genesis figures I have observered that you seem ignore their obvious superior quality to rex/roxy/paul/pauline etc, when you insist that the free price is the only factor in determing DS's popularity...it is the figures plain and simple.

put, this makes up the most powerful collection of 3D software available for FREE for a limited time." "Limited time"? Now where have I heard that before? Well, what do I know? I'm just a liar who's making stuff up and revising history,

Congratulations!!! you found some old expired ad copy** from the former owners of Daz inc** that was clealry superceded by the new owners Loss leader business model.

"Limited time" describes that period BEFORE Dann Farr & Company introduced

DS advanced/"Pro" with the merchant content,creation & figure setup tools This was the Paid version with more features than the base FREE version that remained available.

How about I go and find some 12 year old marketing hype copy from Apple ,Microsoft, Ford, EA games etc and use that as a contextual basis for my arguments & Dire warnings about what evil those companies are planning in late 2017

It does not not change the fact that there was alway a "free base" version of Daz studio even during that period when the"pro" version with the Figure set up tools and other content creation tools was costing money. I know because I refused to pay for them and continued to download the free base version until The new Management took over.

Since most people,even today, dont use the content creation tools the click load & render crowd Always had a free version of studio to use . That is the correct version of history...sorry

By all means, let us know when it gets to feature freeze.

Sure mate, you mean like the "feature freeze" that entombed posers graph editor Dope sheet& useless IK system in the glorious year of 1997???

"Feature freeze" is just an excuse for not spending money on Development Consider that if Blender had settled on a "feature freeze" ten years ago poser would not have the free PBR Cycles engine as a render option.

"If any thing I agree with you that they're more likely to sell it. Despite the gloom and doom scenario you paint for it, Poser is actually doing pretty well for SM. It's other stuff they do that's actually dragging them down."

MartinX posted at 10:38AM Thu, 09 November 2017 - #4317646

Umm it is no more effort than you responding to my post? Same amount of time taken:) My point is documentation just gives basic functions of features, but does not explain how to do something specific to most user requests. That get's answered quicker via formats such as forums. And FYI those who respond want to help, nobody forces them to. Otherwise there would be no such thing as a community if everyones response was "read the documentation" whenever a question was asked.

I have to agree with this. Not everyone can visualize from reading a technical manual. I rely heavily on video tutorials and the forums for help in understanding some areas of both programs. As for where Poser is going, I'm hoping SM pays attention to these discussions. I fought against using Studio until recently. Now I use it more than Poser and for the first time since version 4 I may not upgrade if it's hundreds and doesn't include something new and exciting. Not to mention taking out that ridiculous re-activation feature. I went to open Poser last week and couldn't because I was away from home. I still haven't had the chance to re-activate.

I want to add something here. We are being constructive in this thread and I thank you for that. But keep in mind, we want to be helpful. Over criticism is counter productive. Speculating on features and directions is good. Gloom and doom ... not so much.

Nice to see this thread is doing well and not descending into a brawl. Personally I think they need to start by fixing the engine, I say fix in relation not to it being broken, but to building a good base for a new and frankly good male and female figure to be used in. I say this because if you look at Daz and how they implemented Genesis they first built in the weight mapping etc that allows Genesis to work in daz. Poser needs things like muscle attachments etc at its core to then have these new figures, along with a better face room, cameras, animation, hair, etc that need updating as they are woefully behind their competition. making poser free is not the answer, making it better is. will we see that? I hope so. And on a side note perhaps then if all that happens Iray and amd's new free render engine will support poser out of the box?

Has anyone looked at the ManuelbastioniLAB 1.6.0 for blender and seen muscles in action, I would love this in poser.

First of all Poser is going to Portugal! LOL

If you're thinking of a 'Feature Freeze' as a way to get stability into the program, that's not the best way to get it.

I would always prefer Feature Previews instead. For example the current Cinema has an early version of the new AMD Pro Renderer, with the clear proviso that it is not production ready.

I think the major item that is in Beta is Superfly.

...for me, the excitement of hearing that Cycles code was being incorporated into Poser was tempered by remembering Poser's history with Firefly. I'm expecting a perpetually unfinished Superfly to go with the perpetually unfinished Firefly!

I don't come in here much these days, as many people can attest to, but since I'm waiting for a $@&^! code change to finish propagation across a massive infrastructure...

Disclosure: I stopped using Poser years ago, so some of what I say may be out of date. I also worked for DAZ, though roughly 12 years ago. I am today someone who farts around with CG for fun in his spare time, and rarely (and in the last decade definitely not) for profit.

That said...

As others have said, it's all about what you use the software for. Some use it as a digital barbie-doll set. Others use it as part of their professional production pipeline, or to whip something up quickly for a small CG job. Others still use it to mock-up something for a non-CG project. I am not you, and we are not him, etc.

This means that whatever priorities SmithMicro may settle on, I can say for certain that they're going to have just as hard of a time trying to figure out which part of Poser's declining userbase should be catered to, or if they should try at capturing a different demographic entirely.

However, Poser is facing a couple of problems here that need to be addressed, both externally and internally.

I watched as Poser went from an ambitious (and awesome, and quite groundbreaking) project, to being abandonware, to being brought back to life by a hotly passionate userbase, to being a redheaded orphan that got passed around from one corporate foster home to another**, and then ended up living quietly as a latch-key product, mostly kept alive by an absentee father of a corporation.

I should explain that last bit. Smith Micro is a company that is known as more of a caretaker than as an innovator. They have historically bought-up orphan products, and kept them going just enough to milk whatever small profit margin the product can muster. They're not well-known for taking something and overhauling it into a new, exciting product (SM marketing droids' assertions be damned). One only needs to look at their product catalog for proof - it's a jangled disconnected bag of once-novel software that industry at large has long since cast off (e.g. Stuffit - once a stalwart of Mac Users everywhere, now just something used occasionally by folks with a massive jones for nostalgia). On the plus side, without SM keeping it on life support, Poser would have probably died about 10 years ago, so there is that...

I want to make it clear that I mean no insult to SmithMicro (or to anyone) by saying any of this, but I am however stating facts here, and it helps explain the environment that we're working in during the discussion.

Now - given all of this, I don't hold out much hope of Poser doing much in the way of overhauling what it is, or of innovating too much beyond just keeping up with the Joneses, feature-wise (mind, DAZ ain't the only Jones in CG-town, either). It's just not Smith Micro's style.

That's the internal problem.

Meanwhile, externally, DAZ Studio has bled Poser's userbase count white, and has then went on to swell their own userbase count, mostly by bringing in fresh blood from the world at large. Poser pretty much relies on DAZ to stay alive long-term, but the opposite is certainly no longer true (it used to be true up until 2007 or so, but not these days.) There are of course perennial competitors that crop up (anyone else remember MakeHuman?), but they're nothing like the DAZ juggernaut. DAZ also has competition of sorts (HiveWire 3D, founded by one of the most awesome mesh-mongers on the planet in my estimation), but they make stuff that works just fine with DAZ' software, so it's not much of a threat on their radar... shrug. Now, HiveWire3D could be a benefit to SmithMicro, and SmithMicro would do well to boost their support of Mr. Creek's venture, but that only solves the native-content shortage issue... and currently, only by a little.

Did I mention that one has to pay $349 just to get the full suite, and $129 for the gimped version - meanwhile DS is a whopping $0.00 for the full version?

Give me all the justifications you want, but the days of pricey CG suite software died when they stopped selling Maya for $22k a seat, and potential newbies aren't going to care about your subtle arguments, no matter how many times you use the word 'value' in them.

Unless these problems are addressed, I don't see much more than continuing decline into obscurity for Poser. This obviously needs to be fixed.

This is what you and all other Poser users are looking at. I'm sorry if it's not rosy, but it is what it is. I promise I'm not just naysaying here. I've offered solutions over and over in these forums for years on end, but to no success. Too much work, too much time, not enough profit to be realized, 'Sorry Mr. Miller, but we don't see much future in going that direction', etc... the excuses were plentiful and staggering.

"So why do you care, you old butthead!?"

I care mostly out of nostalgia. Poser has changed a lot since the late 1990s when I first stumbled on it. DAZ has changed a lot since I last set foot in their offices. From a cursory glance in here, Rendo hasn't changed all that much though ( ).

That said, it looks like my work email has informed me that propagation is complete, so now I get to go do some sampling to ensure that the changes took hold where I needed them to.

PS: @EClark1894: Your argument has value to it, certainly - but given the fact that the advertising copy you quoted has had that phrase 'limited time' in it since DS Version 1.0 was released in late 2005? Meh. Not going to put too much stock in DAZ suddenly trying to sell the razor and the razor blades - it wouldn't fit their business model at all, and I daresay would be counterproductive to it (if not suicidal).

Tschüss for now (or so), /P

** Historical note: DAZ|Studio was first made as an insurance policy for DAZ, should Poser go under back in those turbulent, uncertain years.

wolf359 posted at 1:27PM Fri, 10 November 2017 - #4317656

I especially like the part where Wolf 359 just for some reason assumed that I have a problem with Genesis's Quality. I've never said one bad thing about Genesis EVER.

I havent assumed you dont like the quality of the genesis figures I have observered that you seem ignore their obvious superior quality to rex/roxy/paul/pauline etc, when you insist that the free price is the only factor in determing DS's popularity...it is the figures plain and simple.

Yes, You HAVE assumed it, because I haven't said anything about Rex,,or Roxie in this post. I'd have to go back and see if I mentioned Paul or Pauline, but I rather doubt it. I haven't ignored Genesis' quality one way or the other. In fact, I've often said I would probably have been using it EXCEPT, Studio wouldn't run on my Mac. It runs on my laptop, but I don't want to learn DS or move from Poser. So how in the world did you manage to find a post I never wrote about a figure I've never used denigrating it's quality? I'll tell you how, you didn't, cause I never did.

AmbientShade posted at 2:01PM Fri, 10 November 2017 - #4317628

EClark1894 posted at 9:27PM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317597

The worst thing I've said about Studio is that it's in "constant beta". And I'm attacked and rebuked as not knowing what I'm talking about.

I wasn't attacking you, nor did I specifically state that you didn't know what you're talking about. The "constant beta" myth has been batted around for a number of years now, mostly by the anti-daz crowd, and it perpetuates arguments that lead to getting threads locked and deleted, and prevents any of us from having a mature, open discussion about the state of Poser and it's issues without it breaking down to insults and personal attacks. The 'constant beta' argument is simply not true. No more so than it is true of any other software out there, including Poser. So it would be nice to see it stop being stated as though it were truth.

Isn't being in constant beta a good thing? I'll admit, as one who remembers ordering boxed 3D software with manuals, that I hate constantly updating something on my computer every few days... Between Windows updates, Radeon updates, CCleaner (once a week?), Firefox... Then 3d-Coat, blender, zBrush... And hey look, Wings3D and bloody Anim8or got a new version, too. So yeah, do you keep going with what works? Or do you keep everything up to date... Update the next time you use the program, or just make a mental note and install everything at once in an afternoon? But that's not the point... Daz Studio stable release is 4.10 Pro, beta version is 4.10.0.113. The stable release was on Oct. 26, so we can't say that it's in constant beta as it was not in beta for at least a brief moment on that day.

EClark1894 posted at 2:14PM Fri, 10 November 2017 - #4317582

moogal posted at 10:24AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317550

EClark1894

Studio is in constant beta.

It's not constantly in beta any more than any other program in the process of being developed. There are stable releases, and they are soon followed by beta releases. That is something you can do when you are giving the program away, and technically SM do the same thing as we are always waiting on SRs to fix things. If you don't like using beta software, limit yourself to the most recent stable release. Just don't disingenuously make it sound like the program is in some kind of perpetually unusable state.

Gee, wonder where I might have gotten that idea? Oh, I know... And I never said Studio was in a perpetually unusable state. Those are your words. You use 'em, then take all the credit for them.

It was the only reason I could infer for your making that statement, otherwise what is wrong with the availability of development versions? But let's just move on from that, I'll admit that often wanting to try the betas and resigning myself to the stable releases is a little annoying.

AmbientShade posted at 2:36PM Fri, 10 November 2017 - #4317570

moogal posted at 1:54AM Wed, 08 November 2017 - #4317562

If Poser had a viewport like blender's Eevee I guarantee more people would start animating.

Not necessarily. A real time renderer would be great in Poser, but one factor I think you might be missing there is poly count. How well does Eevee handle 1million+ poly count scenes? Poser content artists tend to often ignore this aspect of content creation, but there's a ton of content out there that has tens of thousands of polys, sometimes hundreds of thousands, and that sort of content doesn't function too well in a real time engine. In fact it can bring your system to its knees if you don't have a high end machine. I've seen hair models with upwards of 300K polys. Once you dress a single figure in Poser, with hair, shoes, clothes, accessories, you could quite easily be approaching the 500K - 1million poly count, and that's without adding in additional clothed figures, buildings and other props. The reason real time rendering works so well in game engines is because most game engines use very low poly models. Poser generally does not. You also don't see weight mapped joints in game engines because that again draws on processor resources that are needed for the rendering engine to do its job.

Not saying it's impossible, or shouldn't be a requested feature, but content artists would have to start learning how to build models more efficiently, and users would have to start learning how to decimate their models - once the decimation tools that currently exist get refined.

Oh, I've thought about the poly count problem. I don't know if it's the big deal people make it out to be. We're not talking about realtime response, simply using the GPU and modern PBR shaders that work across a far wider range of tools than Firefly or even Cycles materials. Older characters and simple scenes should update in very close to real time, but complex scenes would still display in seconds vs. hours. Again, why limit the development of the program to older content? Part of the reason we have high poly counts is that we didn't have subdivision back in the early days. Now we do, and it would make more sense moving forward to follow iClone's lead of using lighter character meshes and using displacements and subdivision at render time to provide the expected detail. Such characters could be promoted as background figures, as extras, and SM could communicate to users that render speed is dependent on scene complexity to allay unreasonable expectations.
I've long understood that Poser is catering to the still framers, and a lot of stubborn people who haven't kept pace with what is happening elsewhere. When I got into Poser things like Source Filmmaker, Unreal Engine, and iClone didn't exist. But those programs are actually trying to be the program I wanted Poser to be. Ideally I would be mixing Poser figures (stock and custom), iClone content, SFM models, figures from Mixamo etc. in the same scenes if that were actually possible. Perhaps that's why I don't see the need for a new end-all-be-all base figure, as there are hundreds of figures out there I would be using in Poser if the process of doing so were more refined. And as many of those figures were designed to work in a game engine, the poly count thing you mentioned wouldn't necessarily be an issue for me.

Poser has so many features and such awesome functionality, Poser 11 has some hidden gems.

But I think the majority of the users doesn’t even use 70% of what Poser is capable of.

I’m still discovering new options!

I don't always agree with Peng - and in this case I don't want to - but there's a lot of truth in them words.

However...

For me, Poser has a much easier, more intuitive front end than DS; I still can't get comfortable with DAZ after many tries. Maybe it's just me getting old but I can't see me ditching Poser any time soon. I don't animate stuff and have no desire to do so but the new features in Poser's rendering are stuff I need to get me head around. When I upgrade fro Pro 2012, that is.