Installed 11.2.319 just now.

Will continue running Poser with WiFi off (and checking for updates still switched off).

The Bondware released Poser 11.2 versions can not ever communicate or even attempt to communicate with the SM licence server, both because the SM licence server for Poser is switched off, and because Poser 11.2 is hard coded (not a configurable preference setting) to communicate with the Bondware licence server. The only variable, at this point, is how long the Bondware server will tell a specifically licensed Poser instance that it can wait before it needs to renew its lease. Those who have a specific need, or circumstances which will prevent their computer from contacting the licence server are welcome to request a longer grace period.

I don't really like periodically having to go online to verify my license so I can use my Smith Micro PoserPro 11 (which I, of course, updated to Bondware back when I was supposed to). I like to work offline, and sometimes when I open Poser, I have to reverify and sometimes I don't. Wish I knew what controls this and what to expect.

VedaDalsette posted at 7:28PM Mon, 25 November 2019 - #4371235

Wish I knew ... what to expect. Ditto.

Well after that Bondware found out that SM left the offline activator online it has been removed from there site. It was to be expected that it would happen and shows the true face of it all .... 1st. the offline activator could of been kept without a problem and hosted by Bondware! 2ond. Bondware took this option off on purpose! 3rd. Now officially they took away any options to continue using the Game Dew and 11.1 versions

the ones who saved the Page offline might still have the option to activate on there computers others well will need to figure out another option for these older versions ( Legally they could insist to keep these ) Sm would have to activate these. the only way that SM could get around it is if they close there Site or sell there whole brand as they are bound on the contract as long as they exist even if they sold the versions! If you have kept your bill it will be the proof that they got the money for the Programs there would be no way around for them. If you ask em gently they will send you the offline activator as it only works for older versions and will not affect the Bondware new releases. this will allow you to use Poser 11 .1 and Gamedew offline ... if they do not cooperate just make a report to the costumer Protection they might take care of the issues.

We have first "Curious Labs" then "e Frontier" then " Smith Micro" every change did not cause that an older version would be shut down, it would not of been legal. but now we have Smith Micro to Bondware and two versions get shut so how could this be justified " It could not ! " in the whole Poser History it is the first time something like this happen, there is no excuse from both sides as somehow it was a strategic move that it would end up with a kill switch from both sides.

Personally I think that people do not realize what is going on letting Industrials just do with them and there trust as they wish " really sad to see onto what direction all this is leading to "

gate posted at 3:39PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371306

We have first "Curious Labs" then "e Frontier" then " Smith Micro" every change did not cause that an older version would be shut down, it would not of been legal. but now we have Smith Micro to Bondware and two versions get shut so how could this be justified " It could not ! "

... Because the Curious Labs and the e Frontier versions didn't have any phone home features... because back then pretty much NO software did. SMITH MICRO introduced this, likely because SM works with other types of software and THOSE work well with such functions so they just shoved that into Poser to try to stop piracy (which of course doesn't work).

I don't know why Bondware won't remove it, and not my scope here - let's not start donning tinfoil hats and coming up with conspiracy theories please. Curious Labs and e Frontier didn't do this because it wasn't a thing when Poser belonged to them, and it's not like Bondware decided to annoy every user via kill switch now that they'll have so much trouble making Poser widely relevant again. Complain about the phone home switch all you want but please stop going into convoluted ways to try to blame solely Bondware for it.

@ Afrodite-Ohki If you read my comment the right way you will notice that I said " If you wish having your older versions working then contact Smith Micro to get an activation option " so I do not blame Bondware for this, Bondware can do what they wish with further developments but not influence the Previous versions. In case that it was Forced from Bondware to remove the offline Activator for Previous versions then they might be responsible for shutting down these older versions, they could get blamed for it !

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info )

movida posted at 12:47AM Wed, 27 November 2019 - #4371328

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info ) will be great to hear what SM has to say ... I have my 11.1 version working just fine offline meanwhile and if they are willing to offer this alternative for there Customer it would be just fair, else there would just be the need of a little more Pressure. the whole thing is not going the right way and I think it should be cleared up, I believe that Bondware has a good sense for right and there should not be any reason to blame them if they have nothing to do with the way it went with these older Licences, unless it was an agreement that the older Licences have to be shut down then for sure both would have to be blamed.

I also noticed that even that if one has a Permanent licence that somehow there were attempts to shut down these running versions to force to change to the Bondware versions I think that if such a attempt happen it would be an attack on Personal Computers !

somehow the quote messed Up......

will be great to hear what SM has to say ... I have my 11.1 version working just fine offline meanwhile and if they are willing to offer this alternative for there Customer it would be just fair, else there would just be the need of a little more Pressure. the whole thing is not going the right way and I think it should be cleared up, I believe that Bondware has a good sense for right and there should not be any reason to blame them if they have nothing to do with the way it went with these older Licences, unless it was an agreement that the older Licences have to be shut down then for sure both would have to be blamed.

I also noticed that even that if one has a Permanent licence that somehow there were attempts to shut down these running versions to force to change to the Bondware versions I think that if such a attempt happen it would be an attack on Personal Computers !

movida posted at 7:36PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371328

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info )

Yeah, Consumer Protection or not, don't hold your breath waiting for SM to do anything. Poser is not theirs anymore. It belongs to Bondware. And Consumer Protection won't make SM violate the law.

EClark1894 posted at 7:14PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371352

movida posted at 7:36PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371328

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info )

Yeah, Consumer Protection or not, don't hold your breath waiting for SM to do anything. Poser is not theirs anymore. It belongs to Bondware. And Consumer Protection won't make SM violate the law.

Where, exactly, is SM giving me a real permanent serial number (which I thought I had because I requested it previously) a violation of the law? The version the serial number being requested for is their version not bondware's. I purchased it from SM.

movida posted at 10:27PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371354

EClark1894 posted at 7:14PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371352

movida posted at 7:36PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371328

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info )

Yeah, Consumer Protection or not, don't hold your breath waiting for SM to do anything. Poser is not theirs anymore. It belongs to Bondware. And Consumer Protection won't make SM violate the law.

Where, exactly, is SM giving me a real permanent serial number (which I thought I had because I requested it previously) a violation of the law? The version the serial number being requested for is their version not bondware's. I purchased it from SM.

And SM sold that to Bondware. Think of it like this: You buy a car from a dealer. After the dealer sells it to you, he keeps a key to your car. So is it still his car or yours?

There is a little conflict going as If I bought a Serial from Smith micro , Smith micro can not sell your licence to another one and is at that moment bound with a contract to you. If I sell my licence to another Person then the agreement is valid between me and the one I sold it to. So Bondware could buy Poser but the contracts are only valid for future Licences but not for the ones sold by Smith micro , else it would mean that Bondware bought your Licences without making an agreement with you. if they force you it would be a expropriation !

The Car dealer can not sell the car he sold to you to another Person , unless it is a new Law In the US that allows it , it would be a "expropriation"

gate posted at 7:27AM Wed, 27 November 2019 - #4371383

There is a little conflict going as If I bought a Serial from Smith micro , Smith micro can not sell your licence to another one and is at that moment bound with a contract to you. If I sell my licence to another Person then the agreement is valid between me and the one I sold it to. So Bondware could buy Poser but the contracts are only valid for future Licences but not for the ones sold by Smith micro , else it would mean that Bondware bought your Licences without making an agreement with you. if they force you it would be a expropriation !

The Car dealer can not sell the car he sold to you to another Person , unless it is a new Law In the US that allows it , it would be a "expropriation"

But Bondware DID buy your licences. Remember that the main point of the update was transfer all those licenses to the Bondware Server and rebrand the software. SM can't give you access to software that they no longer own. Otherwise they would have just left their server online... period.

Well so if it would be that easy if one owns a licence then the one could resell it just the way he wish to ....this would mean as I am in legal Possession of my licence that I can just sell it to whom I wish and how many times I want that must be a special feature in US Law LOL !

but see if it would really be the fact that Personal licences have been resold by Smith Micro to a third Party it sure would cause a big issue, as the conditions are not the same. I am aware that things differ a little all over the world from the Wild West conditions but sure if it is the way you say then it would be considered as "expropriation" of personal property.

the other thing is that the Licences are still all regisred at Smith micro in the Licence manager .. now we get to the next point ... if there has been a legal licence trans fair then Smith micro would have to have given the personal Information to Bondware of the Owner transferring my personal account data to them with the Key , I would of had to be Informed by Smith micro with exact info of the licences that have been transferred. This should be mentioned in my account at Smith Micro and then be accessible at Bondware else it would just be Piracy of personal property and Information.

EClark1894 posted at 8:53AM Wed, 27 November 2019 - #4371360

movida posted at 10:27PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371354

EClark1894 posted at 7:14PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371352

movida posted at 7:36PM Tue, 26 November 2019 - #4371328

Well gate, I gave it a try and emailed SM just now, I thought I had done this previously. We'll see what happens and thanks for posting that little bit of info )

Yeah, Consumer Protection or not, don't hold your breath waiting for SM to do anything. Poser is not theirs anymore. It belongs to Bondware. And Consumer Protection won't make SM violate the law.

Where, exactly, is SM giving me a real permanent serial number (which I thought I had because I requested it previously) a violation of the law? The version the serial number being requested for is their version not bondware's. I purchased it from SM.

And SM sold that to Bondware. Think of it like this: You buy a car from a dealer. After the dealer sells it to you, he keeps a key to your car. So is it still his car or yours?

If the original dealer committed to providing you a spare key you'd have to go to them wouldn't you?

OK, I've gotten 2 replies from SM up to this point: the first was go pound sand, and the second was FOAD - I've not given up so we'll see what reply #3 is lmao

On another note, one juicy little bit of info was that: "The new version uses a new Activation System" which means the new activation system is not the old activation system and therefore, was replaced by Bondware and therefore it seems any hope of having it removed is doa huh?

gate posted at 2:13PM Wed, 27 November 2019 - #4371391

Well so if it would be that easy if one owns a licence then the one could resell it just the way he wish to ....this would mean as I am in legal Possession of my licence that I can just sell it to whom I wish and how many times I want that must be a special feature in US Law LOL !

but see if it would really be the fact that Personal licences have been resold by Smith Micro to a third Party it sure would cause a big issue, as the conditions are not the same. I am aware that things differ a little all over the world from the Wild West conditions but sure if it is the way you say then it would be considered as "expropriation" of personal property.

the other thing is that the Licences are still all regisred at Smith micro in the Licence manager .. now we get to the next point ... if there has been a legal licence trans fair then Smith micro would have to have given the personal Information to Bondware of the Owner transferring my personal account data to them with the Key , I would of had to be Informed by Smith micro with exact info of the licences that have been transferred. This should be mentioned in my account at Smith Micro and then be accessible at Bondware else it would just be Piracy of personal property and Information.

They (SM) can sell the license only once...but your information? That is the real goldmine. There is a reason why I get half a dozen calls a day telling me to buy medical insurance (It's the law in California, USA that you MUST have medical insurance). Gate, don't think I do not believe you have a point. You certainly do. My only question is how can we tell if SM still has my personal information?

@ quietrob If you go at Smith micro into your account you can see your Licence Keys in the Licence manager but they will say that they no longer exist, this means that they stored Personal Information also if you kept the bill and Payment mail you will see it under the order number, they can check it any time if you send it to them! These Information had to be transferred to Bondware as they sure had to get the Licence Information. But this would of had to be notified by Smith micro in first Place if they sold your Licences.

Well I will contact my Cousin I grew up with, she is a Professor of Law at Duke Law School, Her Husband is a Big Lawer at Washington DC, either they could contact Smith Micro about the Issue to see what they have to say or at least tell me how things would work and how to proceed in case one Insists having the 11.1 or Game Dew working. to be on the secure side, they know better the Laws in the US then I do !

I also contacted SM Insisting for an Update to get 11.1 working on the machine as they removed the Offline activator Last week will see what they have to say to me ....

gate posted at 4:55PM Wed, 27 November 2019 - #4371451

@ quietrob If you go at Smith micro into your account you can see your Licence Keys in the Licence manager but they will say that they no longer exist, this means that they stored Personal Information also if you kept the bill and Payment mail you will see it under the order number, they can check it any time if you send it to them! These Information had to be transferred to Bondware as they sure had to get the Licence Information. But this would of had to be notified by Smith micro in first Place if they sold your Licences.

Well I will contact my Cousin I grew up with, she is a Professor of Law at Duke Law School, Her Husband is a Big Lawer at Washington DC, either they could contact Smith Micro about the Issue to see what they have to say or at least tell me how things would work and how to proceed in case one Insists having the 11.1 or Game Dew working. to be on the secure side, they know better the Laws in the US then I do !

I also contacted SM Insisting for an Update to get 11.1 working on the machine as they removed the Offline activator Last week will see what they have to say to me ...

Just sticking my .02 in here uninvited :) But SM stated to me that the new version (bondwares) uses a new activation system. To me, that means they replaced the SM activation system with their own and routed that to their license server. Seems to have been a rather easy process to remove/replace the despised call home function.

I wonder why they did not keep the Offline activator running it would not of been any Problem , or why they did not keep the permanent licences activated, this also would not of been of any trouble ... I really start to believe that they did not only sell the Poser but also each and every Customer. If you look at it correctly you are getting a substandard replacement atm ! Sure there are Options to keep Poser 11.1 running but actually it should be offered by Smith Micro for there Customers as the version of Bondware and Smith micro are two Pair of Shoes.

Actually they redirected me to Bondware what I do not accept giving them the responsbility to solve the Problems. Now we are at this point that Smith micro Points fingers at Bondware and Bondware at Smith Micro . It is a real Kindergarden for a really easy to solve Problem, so why ? there must be allot more behid all this if they insist that Poser 11.1 that they have sold can't be running any longer , giving no reasonable reason for it.

Imagine one morning you turn on your Mac or Pc and you will get the notification that the grace Period is over ! that you have to download a new version from another Provider with new condition ... that would cause a real Desaster !

you Never get such a message you get Informed that this version is no longer supported but that you can keep it running on your System as you legally Purchased it !

If People start to accept such new acts then one starts and Others will fallow and also start pulling such forced changes , they will start to expropriate you sell you to others. I remember times when People were defending there rights but now they rather seam to be tamed sheep

At this point I think the only real reason for the upgrade to 11.2 is that bondware replaced sm's phone home utility with their own (maybe more invasive - it seems so if it's calling home more frequently) and redirected to their servers, The extra content was a bribe and distraction:) I do think this was not quite ethical, consumers should have been given an option to keep their 11.1 running as is, and the lacking explanation of what was going on (no release notes for example) indicate a not serious concern with transparency. As for SM - we gave our money to them and they're now out of the country. How convenient.

movida posted at 9:50AM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371520

At this point I think the only real reason for the upgrade to 11.2 is that bondware replaced sm's phone home utility with their own (maybe more invasive - it seems so if it's calling home more frequently) and redirected to their servers, The extra content was a bribe and distraction:) I do think this was not quite ethical, consumers should have been given an option to keep their 11.1 running as is, and the lacking explanation of what was going on (no release notes for example) indicate a not serious concern with transparency. As for SM - we gave our money to them and they're now out of the country. How convenient.

They have NEVER hid from any of us that 11.2 was basically to rebrand Poser and replace the activation system. They constantly and openly called it a BRIDGE update because of that. If you want to call OUR gifts (as vendors who offered the extra content in hopes of giving back to Poser community and making it more active again) "bribes and distraction" please, feel free to delete the content.

Honestly, you people's desire to find insult in what is simply common software practice is ending up insulting much more than Bondware.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 7:04AM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371527

movida posted at 9:50AM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371520

At this point I think the only real reason for the upgrade to 11.2 is that bondware replaced sm's phone home utility with their own (maybe more invasive - it seems so if it's calling home more frequently) and redirected to their servers, The extra content was a bribe and distraction:) I do think this was not quite ethical, consumers should have been given an option to keep their 11.1 running as is, and the lacking explanation of what was going on (no release notes for example) indicate a not serious concern with transparency. As for SM - we gave our money to them and they're now out of the country. How convenient.

They have NEVER hid from any of us that 11.2 was basically to rebrand Poser and replace the activation system. They constantly and openly called it a BRIDGE update because of that. If you want to call OUR gifts (as vendors who offered the extra content in hopes of giving back to Poser community and making it more active again) "bribes and distraction" please, feel free to delete the content.

Honestly, you people's desire to find insult in what is simply common software practice is ending up insulting much more than Bondware.

As one of the "you people's" so disparagingly referred to I'd like to direct your attention to the thread where some end user had the audacity to inquire about release notes: https://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/?thread_id=2939285#msg4368602 and was soundly attacked by the fan boy contingency.

Nobody wants to attack Bondware and we'd like to feel free enough to question the end results of decisions made without being attacked. We'd love to work happily in Poser without feeling like the new mark in a remake of The Sting.

So there.

PS: Jenn Blake was the one offering legit explanations, consistently

And I do think reining in the fan boy contingency and allowing people to ask questions YOU might think are insulting but which were not offered with that intent would be a good first step in expanding the forums. For every 1 person posting there are probably 100 just reading. Do you really think they'll risk being attacked for asking, what to them, seems like an innocent question?

I'm not talking about release notes. I'd like to have them as well.

I'm talking about accusing the gift content of being BRIBERY, that is insulting to us vendors who offered that content because we wanted the community to thrive again.

And I'm also talking about "I think the only real reason for the update" when it was CLEARLY stated that that was the real reason for the update. I'd like the release notes too, you can accuse them of lack of transparency on the specifics, but not on the real reason for the update - that much they have made very clear.

As for "For every 1 person posting there are probably 100 just reading": yes definitely. Also for every 1 person just reading there are probably some 200 people just using the program. So those of us reading the forum might feel like this update was a disaster because of all the complaints, while in truth there are many many more who had a smooth update and are pleased with it. It's so much more common for people to be vocal about complaints than about praise, which is understandable but then we have to keep that in mind not to think that this was largely failure.

Honestly? I dislike the phone home thing too, but truth is that most people aren't even bothered at all with it. And anyone is allowed to be bothered by it, but then please don't drag down the people who were legitimately trying to help and get accused of bribery instead.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 9:53AM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371536

As for "For every 1 person posting there are probably 100 just reading": yes definitely. Also for every 1 person just reading there are probably some 200 people just using the program. So those of us reading the forum might feel like this update was a disaster because of all the complaints, while in truth there are many many more who had a smooth update and are pleased with it. It's so much more common for people to be vocal about complaints than about praise, which is understandable but then we have to keep that in mind not to think that this was largely failure.

Honestly? I dislike the phone home thing too, but truth is that most people aren't even bothered at all with it. And anyone is allowed to be bothered by it, but then please don't drag down the people who were legitimately trying to help and get accused of bribery instead.

1. How do you know what "most" people think? I sure don't.
2. "bribery" and "distractions" are frequently used ploy's by every supplier/merchant/vendor in the world and are treated as legitimate marketing tools. I'm sorry you take such offense to a commonly and innocuously used descriptive but so be it.

movida posted at 1:06PM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371560

1. How do you know what "most" people think? I sure don't.

We both used the term "probably", you might notice.

1. "bribery" and "distractions" are frequently used ploy's by every supplier/merchant/vendor in the world and are treated as legitimate marketing tools. I'm sorry you take such offense to a commonly and innocuously used descriptive but so be it.

"I'm sorry you felt offended" is not an apology. I understand marketing - back in graphic design college we had a lot of lessons on that. Common, yes, innocuous no - thought manipulation is anything but that, and again, we wanted to hype up the Poser community and bring people back to activity, not to hide supposed intentions of an update that clearly stated its intent.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 12:24PM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371562

movida posted at 1:06PM Thu, 28 November 2019 - #4371560

1. How do you know what "most" people think? I sure don't.

We both used the term "probably", you might notice.

What has that got to do with anything????

1. "bribery" and "distractions" are frequently used ploy's by every supplier/merchant/vendor in the world and are treated as legitimate marketing tools. I'm sorry you take such offense to a commonly and innocuously used descriptive but so be it.

"I'm sorry you felt offended" is not an apology. I understand marketing - back in graphic design college we had a lot of lessons on that. Common, yes, innocuous no - thought manipulation is anything but that, and again, we wanted to hype up the Poser community and bring people back to activity, not to hide supposed intentions of an update that clearly stated its intent.

I wasn't apologizing.

Every sales pitch in the world is thought manipulation (or attempted same). Over and out. I have things to do.

Afrodite-Ohki posted at 2:32AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371527

Honestly, you people's desire to find insult in what is simply common software practice is ending up insulting much more than Bondware.

Common in your world perhaps, but not in mine. I refuse to buy software that needs constant or periodically connection to the internet beyond activation, just because software companies are paranoid. Plenty of software that doesn't need an internet connection beyond activation. Actually still quite some software that is happy with a serial number only. I'm okay with companies wanting some activation through the internet the first time you start it and register. Beyond that, no thanks. You may have settled for all of this to be normal, but it really isn't normal at all. It's a huge invasion of our privacy and we've allowed software companies to do so..... under the so called 'its for your own protection' pretence. People accept way too many things as being normal way too easily these days.

I'm glad I found this thread, my Poser won't be updated, simple as that. I considered it, now not anymore. I don't need the latest version, it would be nice, but not a must. I decided to learn how to draw and paint a couple of yours back, my need for software like Poser and Vue has become minimal these days. All I use Poser for this these is to pose characters, it's back to it's roots for me.

Any company that forces me to use a cloud, internet connection or subsscription, isn't worth my money. For me it's as simple as that. Plenty of companies share that sentiment still.

After some conversations with Smith micro it all resulted with simple answers that make no sense . when you wish having a Justification or insist having your Previous Purchased Versions active they repeat that Bondware is in charge ( This gives the answer that they sold the Customer's Info and Personal Serials )

It is the type of system the Chinese use un there Fraud sites when you buy something and do not get what you ordered, very difficult to get them and not worth it. after a conversation with my cousin I was told that the only way in such cases is not to make future Investments in doubtful product-lines !

For Creators this situation is really a Pain, you start to depend on a system that can be shut down from one day to another .... All these Vendors , all these artists all these Sites that make Publicity and support Poser , If Poser ever gets an Issue with the call home like we seen now with Poser Game Dew and Poser 11.1 it could be shut and pull in all these above mentioned supporters ! not to mention all the customers that Invested by buying 3D models for it. Bondware has now full controll over all these and can just do as they wish ( They did not only buy the Program ) they bought every creator every artist that uses that Program.

There might be allot who say ( Great Rendo got Poser and will support it ) but if one morning you will get the same notification like the one from Smith Micro " Grace Period Over " this will mean " Game Over " will you then as silent as you accepted the new facts accept these and say " Oh well all my Investments went down the Drain "

they now can tell you from one day to another " Pay every month a Fee else you will not be able to use what you Purchased " most would as it is a great fear that they cant Access all the have collected.

I know all this has no weight in here and does not change the facts or the future, at least I could write my worries about this Kill switch system and doubtful future for Poser. Good Programmers might be of help to get rid of that call home for the ones who wish having there old versions running Smith Micro is not willing to do so either is Bondware.

I started to Install some other Programs also DS having a closer look at them to see if it would be a better alternative also see if there Communities are more reasonable. From my side I will not be supporting any future Poser versions that have that call home feature and Feed that Industry so if Rendo Plans to keep that system on future releases I just will not get these just as I did not Update to Poser 11.2

If you have a closer look at it all there is less and less Poser models sold even at rendo the past month some new artists that were supporting Poser only start making stuff for DS. And not even the signs make em realize what is going on . I said before the ones who jump off ship and realize to get better support form elsewhere will not turn back ! I was admiring 1971s that was making Poser stuff but now this product line also goes to DS and on and on it goes ... the development is silent artists do not want to loose time with arguments about a lost thing ... they just leave.

Customers will realize more and more that DS has to offer better quality things because they will have the better Creators " I really believe that this Kill Switch is causing a irreparable Damage to the Poser communities.

EClark1894 posted at 6:09AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4367467

Hmm, just wondering. Aside from the non-kill switch thingie, what would Studio offer you that you can't get from Poser? I ask because if the kill switch were the only thing, why are you spending money on Poser anyway?

Earl, I'm answering a question that was asked by you early on; I haven't read all of this thread yet. I really like Poser. I had my eye on it starting with Poser 3, bought my first version at 5 and really started getting into it when 7 came out with a joint package with Shade. It seemed like a match made in heaven - a modeling program, a character program, and access to stores that sell quality 3d Models at affordable prices (Shade at the time was very smart and put out a book with a CLEAR tutorial. They had you make a table and a vase and a few other useful items. Following that step-by step I was able to model a lot of things quickly and they also had import/export support for Poser Figures - I have Lightwave now and wish there was a clearer more useful tutorial for some practical items rather than their dumb overly simplified truck.). I tried DAZ at the time, but it was a clunky second rate program compared to Curious Lab's Poser, which also had multiple books written about it. In the intervening years Smith Micro purchased Poser, but really didn't know what to do with it. I met with their team once when the company was giving presentations in Manhattan and tried to explain it to them. But they treated Poser and the Store like it was a standard piece of Oracle software, not like part of the artist community that it is. They didn't get that artists think a bit differently than your standard coders. To their credit Smith Micro didn't just shut it down and I'm hoping that Renderosity turns out to be a good partner for the software now.

In short, there will be a learning curve for DAZ. I'm semi-resigned that things will probably go that way here and I will become a Dazaholic. I know a good chunk of Poser without thinking and in my spare time have been having fun. Fun ceases when I get the kill switch message and I have to spend a day or two getting the thing up and running. Obviously not a full day in directed hours, but in RT by the time you send a help message, by the time someone gets around to answering, by the time you answer their questions... you get the idea.

I really feel that the key to the game here in a business sense is marketshare. Using Poser software as the camera versus film; the razor blade versus the shaver. One thing Daz is doing that Rendo has not is make use of their full library. Rendo obsoletes things and puts them on clearance. But this whole thing is still new. Someone that hasn't seen the early characters is still happy to use them because they are simpler and take less effort to render. When you're starting how important is weight mapping anyway.

I'm writing too much, but hopefully you see that I really want this to succeed and I really, really believe the kill switch for this particular business at this time is a bad idea that takes a lot of company time figuring out how to do policing rather than developing the software. For a $250 program upgrade I'd be willing to lease for $25 a month for 10 months until I "own." Or put down $50 or $100 and pay the balance on time. Also, if I stop, I should be able to pick up without penalty until the software is 'paid off". You see, $250 is not a lot for one item. But that $250 in a budget means it has to come out of character purchases or other software upgrades that might be more important for day-to-day life.

quietrob posted at 6:47AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4367494

I think a reasonable person would think it requires online activation, that is fine. Most programs require some type of basic registration. I also think a reasonable person, unless otherwise informed that I need to be online from time to time, would believe that it would work fine offline. Forever.

I do not remember being informed that I needed an internet connection for continued use of Poser. Even if it's every once in a while, then I should be informed. Were any of you informed of this requirement?

Moreover, the basic question I asked a while ago still hasn't been answered.

Why do we need to phone home at all, after the initial registration?

My Point exactly. This is a small community. Anyone that gets poser and tries to use it will go to Renderosity to buy something. Even if a percentage is 'pirated' by starving artists money will still come into Renderosity if the characters and character support are viable. The more people who have poser, the more people will come to Renderosity. It can be argued that the long-term strategy of this approach has already been successfully applied by DAZ, a former Poser wannabe now the one to beat.

Do you really believe that someone who doesn't pay for the program will come and buy content rather than looking for pirated content online? And having a phone home feature allows the 21 day free trial, in my mind a good idea to attract new users. So you had a problem once on switch over, or maybe later. Once sorted there should be no further problems, to say this destroyed your fun sounds a bit like saying you enjoy driving but the car broke down once so you now no longer like driving and are going to take the bus, a bit of an over reaction.

And your point about Rendo and clearance . From what I understand it is now up to vendors if items goes into clearance, while with DAZ items just disappear from the store with no warning. I've had this with items in my wish list and also when I've wanted to refer to store page of items I've purchased.

I understand that some people do not want their machines connected to the internet for security reasons but I do believe some of posts hear are going over the top.,

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

(1) "... However, that purchase came with impediments in the form of SM's unfortunate decision to impose its 'phone-home' feature which I believe was originally applied with the intention of putting certain versions of Poser on a subscription-only basis. That feature has been perpetuated and inherited by Bondware. Not an ideal situation and clearly a feature which is detested by many as countless posts here can attest both long before and after Bondwares purchase. That situation is further exacerbated when that feature is not only retained but extended from approximately once a month to every nine days with the added threat of purchasers losing access to the program they have purchased if they do not comply. I would remind you that we are talking about a permanent license here and that has a meaning in legal terms, in fact, at some point in the future could result in a legal challenge being mounted. (I should insert at this point that this is something I have verified with my lawyers, not with the intention of doing so but as a hypothetical test in order to be sure of my facts!) ..."

(2) ** Agreed.** In addition, you'd think that the existence of a viable alternative that is not crippled by phone home would lend itself to a little "eye opening" on the part of the new owners. I do not use any Adobe products newer than CS6 (the last non phone home), I won't use Substance for the same reason. I don't care what app it is nor how much I love it, if they go "subscription" (i.e., analyzing, location, perusing your personal computer, collecting personal data etc., the truth of it) I'm out. Period."

(3) I never buy subscription software unless (a) business requires it and I can make more money on the software than it costs for the subscription [think Adobe's near monopoly of the professional graphic illustrator's market] (b) it is subscribe to own, making the monthly cost very low, and the software permanently available as long as I have a system to run it. Poser is unusual in that it is not normally run as a stand alone software but instead needs the content that Renderosity provides. It should NEVER be a subscription software with a kill switch. That's just terrible, terrible long term planning for possible short term gain.

If poser had started with a kill switch or as subscription I would not have even considered buying the software or any of the content that it requires. My first 3D experience would have been DAZ all the way.

Nails60 posted at 8:02AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371756

Do you really believe that someone who doesn't pay for the program will come and buy content rather than looking for pirated content online?

The short answer is emphatically "Yes". That is the current Daz model which has surpassed Poser. That was the Poser model before Poser fell out of favor. I slao believe that is the way things will have to go in order for Poser to prosper.

I can't edit so I'll correct. I goofed on the Poser analogy above. I meant there was no kill siwtch, not that it was free, though often it was discounted to $99 or less. I think one upgrade version may have been $67 or $69 which is very inexpensive. My Daz statement is correct.

consumer573 posted at 7:46AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371757

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

(1) "... However, that purchase came with impediments in the form of SM's unfortunate decision to impose its 'phone-home' feature which I believe was originally applied with the intention of putting certain versions of Poser on a subscription-only basis. That feature has been perpetuated and inherited by Bondware. Not an ideal situation and clearly a feature which is detested by many as countless posts here can attest both long before and after Bondwares purchase. That situation is further exacerbated when that feature is not only retained but extended from approximately once a month to every nine days with the added threat of purchasers losing access to the program they have purchased if they do not comply. I would remind you that we are talking about a permanent license here and that has a meaning in legal terms, in fact, at some point in the future could result in a legal challenge being mounted. (I should insert at this point that this is something I have verified with my lawyers, not with the intention of doing so but as a hypothetical test in order to be sure of my facts!) ..."

(2) ** Agreed.** In addition, you'd think that the existence of a viable alternative that is not crippled by phone home would lend itself to a little "eye opening" on the part of the new owners. I do not use any Adobe products newer than CS6 (the last non phone home), I won't use Substance for the same reason. I don't care what app it is nor how much I love it, if they go "subscription" (i.e., analyzing, location, perusing your personal computer, collecting personal data etc., the truth of it) I'm out. Period."

(3) I never buy subscription software unless (a) business requires it and I can make more money on the software than it costs for the subscription [think Adobe's near monopoly of the professional graphic illustrator's market] (b) it is subscribe to own, making the monthly cost very low, and the software permanently available as long as I have a system to run it. Poser is unusual in that it is not normally run as a stand alone software but instead needs the content that Renderosity provides. It should NEVER be a subscription software with a kill switch. That's just terrible, terrible long term planning for possible short term gain.

If poser had started with a kill switch or as subscription I would not have even considered buying the software or any of the content that it requires. My first 3D experience would have been DAZ all the way.

I'd like to know how my name got included when I never replied to this post?????? I've replied on this thread but not to this post....

When it all comes down to it, it is my own responsibility to maintain security of my own computer. I have never been hacked on any of my machines, it only happened once on my Yahoo account. I have my main machine online all the time and I have the proper precautions when I am online. I don't mind the phone home feature or subscription model software because they are market reactions to how needs evolve and trends arise. In the 21st century there are already huge changes to how we interpret digital rights and how software is distributed and I expect more to come. Renderosity owned Poser only since September of this year. I am willing to give them a bit more time to sort this out. Hopefully they conduct market research and look at more consumer opinions than just what forum users say here. We are a tiny minority.

I am not afraid of being hacked, but what happens if Renderosity goes out of business for some reason? I could be left with a non-working Poser 11 program, and also my investment in content for Poser 11 is useless. It won't work in earlier versions of Poser and as far as I know there isn't any other program that could use it either.

The going out of business issue is always there, it was there since any program existed. Poser has changed hands quite a number of times since its inception. One solution I saw in the past was when the company declared bankruptcy they made the software open source. One hopes any responsible company would follow responsible practices like that: a going out of business event is not an one minute to the next event, unless you are dealing with scammers. I would think Bondware is not that.

consumer573

There is a difference between someone using a free program and someone using a paid for program for free. The latter is demonstrating that they do not believe that to be theft, or do not care, either way it still suggests they would have no qualms about using pirated content.

If you are suggesting Bondware giving away poser, that is entirely a different business model, but I would imagine initial losses could be significant before any increase in content sales appear.

I believe that a huge damage already has been done, my guess is that allot of people search when confronted with such a situation like the actual call home feature and taking down the 11.1 versions for alternative way's and they find it quick in Google . the search will not only answer there request and give them a solution it will lead them to places where they will get most of Poser content for free !!!

Renderosity will not get a damage as they earn for each and every sale a 50% it works cumulative , the artist has the whole work from creating publishing etc and will get the other half for all hes work unique ( Not cumulative ) he will be the looser and believe me None will give a darn about it ! there are almost no new product that are skipped.

For most Customers Poser is a luxury they have barely the possibility to afford it once in a while they will make them selves a little present to keep smiling ... get the feeling to also be an artist. believe me I have allot of such persons on my site and I help where I can to make em happy without ripping em off !

But this system here is a ripp off! more and more trying to get every dime out of the creators and the customer's Pocket. trying to get control of them but the result will rather be a Bumerang then a Profitable strategy.

My thoughts : all my new creations depend on the mood of Renderosity even my Site! will they support Poser, will they shut it down, will I have to Pay every month to have all my work of the last decade still working , Believe me I am not at all willing to do so !

where do you think that the fiances come from for Poser they come from these 50% taken from creators and now it es also abused with a call home to control the feeding hands as a great thank you ( Well sorry Smith micro did it ) do you really believe this ?

you little Creator will not even earn enough to Pay your Bills while they laugh at you driving there high end cars and living in a Palace. If you ask them a simple question tell them your worries they will ignore you, If they answer it will be like spitting in your face as they do not care, they care only about increasing there Income and prosperity.

movida posted at 2:07PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371763

consumer573 posted at 7:46AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371757

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

(1) "... However, that purchase came with impediments in the form of SM's unfortunate decision to impose its 'phone-home' feature which I believe was originally applied with the intention of putting certain versions of Poser on a subscription-only basis. That feature has been perpetuated and inherited by Bondware. Not an ideal situation and clearly a feature which is detested by many as countless posts here can attest both long before and after Bondwares purchase. That situation is further exacerbated when that feature is not only retained but extended from approximately once a month to every nine days with the added threat of purchasers losing access to the program they have purchased if they do not comply. I would remind you that we are talking about a permanent license here and that has a meaning in legal terms, in fact, at some point in the future could result in a legal challenge being mounted. (I should insert at this point that this is something I have verified with my lawyers, not with the intention of doing so but as a hypothetical test in order to be sure of my facts!) ..."

(2) ** Agreed.** In addition, you'd think that the existence of a viable alternative that is not crippled by phone home would lend itself to a little "eye opening" on the part of the new owners. I do not use any Adobe products newer than CS6 (the last non phone home), I won't use Substance for the same reason. I don't care what app it is nor how much I love it, if they go "subscription" (i.e., analyzing, location, perusing your personal computer, collecting personal data etc., the truth of it) I'm out. Period."

(3) I never buy subscription software unless (a) business requires it and I can make more money on the software than it costs for the subscription [think Adobe's near monopoly of the professional graphic illustrator's market] (b) it is subscribe to own, making the monthly cost very low, and the software permanently available as long as I have a system to run it. Poser is unusual in that it is not normally run as a stand alone software but instead needs the content that Renderosity provides. It should NEVER be a subscription software with a kill switch. That's just terrible, terrible long term planning for possible short term gain.

If poser had started with a kill switch or as subscription I would not have even considered buying the software or any of the content that it requires. My first 3D experience would have been DAZ all the way.

I'd like to know how my name got included when I never replied to this post?????? I've replied on this thread but not to this post....

Movida, I quoted your post number 4368655 on page one. When the paragraphs ran together I wanted to make sure it was clear there were 3 different parties talking so I numbered them 1, 2, and 3. Otherwise it looked like my commentary was part of speaker number 2. At least in the preview draft section.

Nails60 posted at 2:16PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371783

consumer573,

There is a difference between someone using a free program and someone using a paid for program for free. The latter is demonstrating that they do not believe that to be theft, or do not care, either way it still suggests they would have no qualms about using pirated content.

If you are suggesting Bondware giving away poser, that is entirely a different business model, but I would imagine initial losses could be significant before any increase in content sales appear.

I see your distinction. It was/is not my intent to get into an ethical argument. I do believe that the majority of people who are going to use Poser are ethical and would buy a legitimate copy of Poser if they felt the price was fair. I also believe that the business situation as it exists suggests that if people felt the price of Poser was unfair they would be more likely to just download a legitimate version on DAZ. So my conclusion is that any leakage of Poser software due to piracy would be rather small compared to other industries like music and movies. If the success of this niche business game is as I believe, namely marketshare, then I believe more would be won by getting as many copies of Poser out there as possible rather than spending monies and personnel time policing it and dealing with the effects of kill switches.

In my personal case, should my game developer die and there is still a kill switch in Poser software, that is the end of the line for Poser with me. I'm going DAz. There I will be legitimate and not have a capricious software to deal with. I'm fed up with it. And I already own Poser 11.

consumer573 posted at 2:37PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371792

movida posted at 2:07PM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371763

consumer573 posted at 7:46AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4371757

movida posted at 7:26AM Sat, 30 November 2019 - #4368355

Mythocentric posted at 6:16AM Sat, 26 October 2019 - #4368349

Hi Rhia474.

I'd like to know how my name got included when I never replied to this post?????? I've replied on this thread but not to this post....

Movida, I quoted your post number 4368655 on page one. When the paragraphs ran together I wanted to make sure it was clear there were 3 different parties talking so I numbered them 1, 2, and 3. Otherwise it looked like my commentary was part of speaker number 2. At least in the preview draft section.

Thanks :) I thought I was posting while buzzed :)