Nevertrumper posted at 11:45 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457046

As I understand this, it would be easy to create morphs from a base geometry *.obj, but when you want to create new morphs on top of already existing morphs, you will might get into trouble, because you will have to deal with splitting up body part seams.

If you morph over a morph as a default state, return it to Poser, subtract it, and are left with only the new result (the difference) the new difference morph will behave as if it was created over the subtracted morph but will not double the baked in reference (telescoping) because it has been subtracted.

How might you subtract a value of 1 state added to a value of 2 state?  By subtracting 1 and producing only a result of 1 state.

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

Rhia474 posted at 5:05 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457027

Superfly does not look better because there are no good tutorials as to how to use it. End users need to scour for how-tos or ask people here and kludge our way through until we can figure it out, or rely of people like Snarly to convert things.

Of course when you look at promo renders with, again, a very small number of exception, or try with the settings provided, you will get crappy results. No one teaches how to use it. I did not use Firefly since Poser 12 came out, but I kludge my way through everything. It is super frustrating and very lonely.

Hmm - I could take that as a project. Do people still even look at the tutorial section these days?

Nevertrumper posted at 5:05 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457060

AmbientShade posted at 3:53 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457054

"With Poser 13, you can now set up your own start-up scene, complete with your favorite figures, props, and settings."

Can someone explain why this is listed as a new feature? We've had this ability for years. What's different about it?

This part puzzled me as well. Does Bondware really know Poser?

More has been removed in Poser then it has upgraded since Poser 11.1 with the excuse that it is not needed. So yes set up your own start-up scene is a part of Poser ever since , Unimesh is a Part of Poser ever since, just the names will change, some numbers will change and the Package will change.

I remember at RDNA in there forums when they proposed Unimesh simple skinning to be working in future Poser versions, so SM did add this feature in 2014  on a upgrade and expanded it in Poser 11 Pro  or lets say actually it was called GameDEV support at the time meaning that it is a simplified support importing and exporting rigged models from Poser via versa. The Word unimesh is just a change of meaning that actually was used for Figures that had Multiple gender features. But sure you can take ( Words and change the meaning  ) to your own preferences and sell it as NEW FEATURE. 

The only advantage of this strategy might be that end users realize that it exists due the Promoting and start using the already existent features. Disadvantage is they Pay for the renaming's. 

I know i do!! :) And you and your carefully crafted assets are definitely an exception! 

When GameDEV got promoted there were quiet some discussions at RDNA ( Now called Unimesh ) same happens again. I started to study this feature and got into it in 2016 and yes it is fully working just not under the name Unimesh. Now it is a Déjà-vu, big discussions and promoting just like at RDNA for a all new Unimesh GameDEV ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ? Was it a Conflict caused due the now so called unimesh support that was breaking older Poser models articulations ? 

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Hmm - I could take that as a project. Do people still even look at the tutorial section these days?

I don't, but I do look at tutorials when Renderosity features them in their daily blog/email.

They posted a Blender for Beginners tutorial recently, and I'm trying it.

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

primorge posted at 9:52 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457085

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Creators always used the Traditional Poser rigging methods even that it was planed long ago to start off using simple sinning methods ( witch actually the better choice ) so it is quiet difficult making one understand what the differences really are as creators seem to be stuck in that Triax rigging methods. No wonder as it is the Standard of Poser and as well of DS. So on how I understand that Bondware is planning the first release of a simple skinned figure release it is going to be quiet a big change for most creators. Witch actually already should of happen almost a decade ago. Sure can understand that SM stopped the development as creators never started using that feature in Poser and were fixed on extensions for the Millennium models.  

vopehov506 posted at 11:26 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457091

primorge posted at 9:52 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457085

" ( Hint: some might remember the feature .... Computing magnets in world space ) how many of you do understand this feature and why it is a part of Poser ?"

Which feature? Compute magnets in world space? I've seen it. Properties tab, Body actor, below the conforming options. I'm woefully under informed about magnets, in actual practice, at this point in Poser tech I've never had the need to use them other than by force using legacy figures equipped with such Deformers. I vaguely remember using magnets for morphs in Poser 6 or 7 I guess. What's your point? The Daz figures being rendered inoperable in Poser?

Apparently some problems with V4 regarding back in the day...

https://www.daz3d.com/forums/discussion/24018/poser-pro-2014-carrara-8-and-victoria-4-2

Yes the new tech cased issues with magnets as they no longer had the same compatibility as before on figures so the new poser that came out basically with extended " Unimesh support " was breaking models that use magnets. Later on a backward compatible feature got launched where you could turn off the "magnets in world space" as it is  the Standard for the new poser GameDEV ( Unimesh ) releases for future model creations.

I'll stick with Poser. I just wish they'd get on with it already. I can do the weird things I want to do with the current tech in Poser. More options are definitely desired. I am starting to feel like I should invest more time with Blender's rigging system. I've been collecting and looking at a lot of things in that environment. My time is finite. Trying to learn Substance Painter, Rizom, modeling tasks, and now it's looking like rigging in Blender too. Bottom line is I was a bit enthusiastic about the new tech coming to Poser but frankly the offerings in 2 consecutive releases makes it look like it's tanking. I'm disappointed in a similar way as I was disappointed with what happened with Carrara.

Guess it's just a game of wait and see.

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

I see. Thanks Tim.

AmbientShade posted at 12:29 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457102

primorge posted at 6:44 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457075

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

You can do this with GoZ. No need for pml, which is no longer available and wouldn't work with P12 anyway. 

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

AmbientShade posted at 12:29 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457102

primorge posted at 6:44 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457075

A good example would be an expression morph designed to work with a custom face morph. If you create the expression over top the custom face and apply it as a morph target and dial it to 1, the custom face is baked into the expression morph and applied again. Telescoping. The custom face is doubled and surely won't look right when you dial in the expression. But if you subtract the custom face from the expression morph, which was built in relation to that custom face, and apply the result you are left with just the expression. Works properly. It's the difference derived through subtraction.

PML and GoZ can do this. You can also do it manually by dialing the baked in morph's original dial to -1, the new morph (that was created with the original baked in) to 1, export the result as a morph target, apply that morph target and the baked in morph will be subtracted from the resulting morph. So when you activate that morph it will behave accordingly in relation to the morph that was initially present without applying that reference morph again.

You can do this with GoZ. No need for pml, which is no longer available and wouldn't work with P12 anyway. 

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

I am curious if Ken1171's unimesh exporter does this as well.

In any case ADP's OBJ exporter does it too. And is compatible Poser 12.

So I'll correct that statement

I can do this with PML, GoZ, Just Poser, or ADP's Exporter Script.

primorge posted at 12:50 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457104

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

Would it not also be possible to create morphs for exported figures if you used an application that could correct and copy vert order? There are plugins available for blender that will correct them. I'm sure other modeling apps would also do it.

tim posted at 11:24 AM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457090

@AmbientShade  it's a little different & products can add to the startup scene list.

Is the change that you can have several different startup scenes?

AmbientShade posted at 12:59 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457107

primorge posted at 12:50 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457104

Correction AmbientShade.

I can do this with GoZ, PML, or just Poser. I use PML the most because of those 3 options it works the best across multiple softwares.

Gotcha. I read it as "PML and GoZ" as in combination, not "either/or".

Would it not also be possible to create morphs for exported figures if you used an application that could correct and copy vert order? There are plugins available for blender that will correct them. I'm sure other modeling apps would also do it.

ODF has a vertex winding order correction script. It might be bundled with Pydeltamesh-main, I seem to recall him mentioning that. He used to use it to correct exports to and from Wings.

If you are interested in that script, pop over to his thread and inquire. He probably has it on Github.

As a humorous aside. All this stuff is small potatoes for ODF, what with his coding experience and whatnot... He's more crafty than he looks lol.

Not sure who wrote the copy for the latest news piece but you could use a clarity editor. A lot of questions here could have been avoided with some cleanup in phrasing.

ODF has a vertex winding order correction script. It might be bundled with Pydeltamesh-main, I seem to recall him mentioning that. He used to use it to correct exports to and from Wings.

If you are interested in that script, pop over to his thread and inquire. He probably has it on Github.

The boxes on the left show all the scenes you can click to open.  The top are your latest scenes and the bottom are for standards.  That way you can resume or start a new scene without having to load Poser then load another scene.

Richard60 posted at 8:24 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457155

The boxes on the left show all the scenes you can click to open.  The top are your latest scenes and the bottom are for standards.  That way you can resume or start a new scene without having to load Poser then load another scene.

I wonder what the "launch options" are? Can you set it to work like previous versions of Poser, and just open your launch scene without requiring the user to pick something?

That of course is the big problem isn't it?  What would be considered game changer?  A lot of Poser improvements are little things that just make it nicer/easier to use.  Like being able to delete multiple objects from a scene by selecting them in the Hierarchy Editor and right clicking delete.  Or having the menus open collapsed.  About the only new thing is AI.  Now it would be nice to get improvements to some of the other Poser features like the cloth room or animation.  The problem with that is that only a small number of people would use it so it is not a game changer.  Me personally, I would like the cloth room (or Bullet Physics Latest) to be able to make cloth work more like real life so we could get rid of stupid conforming clothes.  Most of the time spent making content is wasted trying to get one figure to fit over another figure.  And then all the time spent trying to get rid of poke through.

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

ssgbryan posted at 2:06 PM Sun, 26 February 2023 - #4457012

Until there is a 1-click firefly-superfly conversion process for ALL materials, superfly is irrelevant for a lot of users.

From my perspective - This isn't Poser 13. 

It is Poser 12.1.

Poser depends upon external content and so much of it was shipped before SuperFly existed.

Users tried rendering their pre-existing content in SuperFly and were met with "demon eyes", "skin like coal" or at best a figure that looked like she was wrapped in cling-film.

Yes the very technical users could manually fix these things but it is a tedious job with so many materials and so many character sets, and the material room is an un-useable nightmare for most. So they don't bother, they stick to FireFly.

Some top vendors like SV7 released characters with SuperFly materials included - but these invariably looked worse than the SSS materials they shipped that worked in both FireFly and SuperFly.

I find that SV7 SSS materials render even nicer in SuperFly than Firefly, but that's partly as I like a good but not excessive degree of specularity on skin to give extra depth to renders.

For other vendors like Tempesta3D I find their SSS materials look far worse in SuperFly as the Specularity is so high, so have to manually amend these if I want to use SuperFly - and it's very painful. 

Poser will never compete with the big players for the most technical of users so they should focus on its users needs - ease of use. 

SuperFly is a powerful disaster to date.

Richard60 posted at 9:43 PM Mon, 27 February 2023 - #4457159

That of course is the big problem isn't it?  What would be considered game changer?  A lot of Poser improvements are little things that just make it nicer/easier to use.  Like being able to delete multiple objects from a scene by selecting them in the Hierarchy Editor and right clicking delete.  Or having the menus open collapsed.  About the only new thing is AI.  Now it would be nice to get improvements to some of the other Poser features like the cloth room or animation.  The problem with that is that only a small number of people would use it so it is not a game changer.  Me personally, I would like the cloth room (or Bullet Physics Latest) to be able to make cloth work more like real life so we could get rid of stupid conforming clothes.  Most of the time spent making content is wasted trying to get one figure to fit over another figure.  And then all the time spent trying to get rid of poke through.

I would like improvements in dynamic hair and cloth. I think a decent number of people use dynamic cloth. Few use dynamic hair, but I do.

But...improvements could change that. It looks like a lot of DS users use dForce hair and cloth, so if dynamic hair and cloth worked better in Poser, I think more people would use them.

And I wonder if it's possible to make the material room easier. Vue's materials are so much simpler to understand; could they make Poser's materials more like that? And speaking of Vue, I'd use instancing if it was available in Poser.

hornet3d posted at 4:50 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457177

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

And Poser 9 (I think) gave us weight-mapping, which was a game changer for sure.

I don't think people are complaining, so much as wondering if upgrading is worth it.

Is the upgrade worth it is the $250 question.

No unimesh - no new unimesh figure.

In the run up, unimesh was the big selling point.  Now it is gone, and no one from Bondware can tell us what is now the big new selling point.

Improvements to Superfly isn't a big selling point when most of my content doesn't ship with Superfly materials, and I have yet to see a way to batch convert materials.  I have over 2Tb of content, and I have no intention of converting all of it one by one.

Bondware made this mess - they need to come up with a solution.

Improvements to weights and morph copy transfer sound interesting. Improvements to walk and talk designer are surprising and welcome actually. These improvements coupled with a few of the things added to 12 compels me to spend the little extra money I have on it.

I have a ponderous amount of software subscriptions now, the no show of Unimesh makes me falter a bit. Honestly I could wait on Poser 13 and pay off Rizom. Full Unimesh was the feature that I felt I needed to be on top of immediately, given my particular interests in Poser. I may drag my feet a bit purchasing 13 and see what people have to say, unfortunately most people on here are obsessed with the coat of paint beauty render stuff and seem pretty disinterested or oblivious to the content creation/figure tech side of things. This is a noticeable growing trend that's worrisome because it's a vicious circle of demand and what is deemed sufficient as a supply.

Just my 2 cents (or actually 200 dollars)

randym77 posted at 10:25 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457191

hornet3d posted at 4:50 AM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457177

I started playing with Poser in 2001 but looking at my buying history it only became a hobby from 2005 onwards.  In all that time I have upgraded to the latest release of Poser but I have to say that none of them were game changers for me although some came close.  The game dev version was nearly a game changer but for all the wrong reasons (I still hate the deactivation feature) but Sub-Surface-Scattering was a big jump for me and, more recently the introduction of Superfly.  With both features I needed a lot of guidance which, thankfully, was easy to find thanks to the many Poser forums.  I gave up on Superfly more than once but I am really glad I stuck with it as I now use nothing else.  

Looking back the real trend over the years has been the drive to improve the renders while driving down the rendering time.  With Poser 12 and Superfly I can render to a quality level that was not possible a few years ago and my render times are measured in minutes rather than days or even over night.

I can understand the hope and wishes for great changes if you use Poser to make money in a professional manner but for me as a hobbyist I am more than happy with a steady progression.  

Looking back Poser has given me fun for over 20 years and at a cost much less than many other hobbies, not to mention the fact I can enjoy it from the comfort of my own home so what is there to complain about?

I thought Poser 5 was a game changer. Multiple runtimes, dynamic hair and cloth, plus Firefly was so much better than the Poser 4 renderer.

And Poser 9 (I think) gave us weight-mapping, which was a game changer for sure.

I don't think people are complaining, so much as wondering if upgrading is worth it.

I accept people are not complaining, my point was really we have come a long way over the years, game changing upgrades or not.

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

randym77 posted at 4:13 PM Tue, 28 February 2023 - #4457252

You know what I'd like, a lot more than multiple startup scenes? The ability to easily sort runtimes. I know you can do it by editing a text file, but as someone who uses dozens of runtimes and often changes which ones are attached, being able to change the order of runtimes by dragging and dropping, or even having automatic alphabetical sorting would be a game changer for me.

Yes please!

Yeah, it's good that Ken is filling gaps in the Poser feature list, but there shouldn't really be these gaps:

https://www.renderosity.com/marketplace/products/157979/runtime-organizer-for-poser-12

Now there is a fun problem.  Poser does not do something so a vendor creates a script to do something.  Does Poser now basically copy the script (or what it does) and add it to the program?  What about the person who wrote the script?  How much should they be paid if at all?  Let's say using made up numbers since I don't know the real numbers that Poser sells 10,000 copies and the script sells 50 copies @ $20 or a total of $1,000.  Does Poser give the script writer 10 cents a copy which works out to the $1,000 dollars or should they get $200,000 since 10,000 people are using his script (or the basics of his script)?  Maybe Poser should get rid of Python so people can't make up scripts to fill in the little holes and wait for the complaint's and do updates to fix these things?  The vast majority of people using Poser are never going to need the features that you are asking for.  A small number have multiple runtimes and one or two have a thousand+.

Mode: RANT on

EZSkin exists till.... I don't remember, but long enough. And Snarlygribbly has always refused the single cent.
I've help to port EZSkin3 to Poser12 and its PYthon3.x version, but I've developed my own skin, and to respond to ader's "SuperFly is a powerful disaster": you are almost right: even those very old Vic4 are looking so bad

This kind of sentences look like insults to those are looking for a 3D program that is more than just BUY, drop in a scene, RENDER (loooooooong time to wait), publish
Developping its own style / tools are part of the fun
Please: if you don't like Poser, that's ok. Find another software (stable diffusion and its controlnets?) 
Each Poser update / new version generates too many peremptory or denigrating assertions. The crew behind Poser's development has done a huge step, the simple fact to get out of Python2.x for example, plus the rest. Not all software are doing such huge steps...

I really have no problems with people that don't like Poser and its steps, honestly. But there's a golden rule for each human: if you want to be respected, respect the others

Mode: RANT off

Most endusers are LOAD, CONFORM, MAKE ART, Y-Phil.  It has been  like this since 2004 that I am personally aware of (Poser 5 was my gateway drug).

I don't care about the dev's feelings - I have a business relationship with Bondware, not a personal one.

Bondware pumped up unimesh as the main feature.  As an enduser I have no idea how this will impact my use of Poser, but the devs talked it up repeatedly as THE major feature for Poser 13.  30 days from launch, unimesh is now off the table, along with the new unimesh figure that was supposed to come with it.  We also haven't been told if this will show up later in the Poser 13 lifecyle because it isn't done or if it will move to the Poser 14 development cycle.

If it isn't ready, Bondware should consider pushing the launch back until it is.  This launch is starting to look a lot like the Poser 5 launch.  The userbase isn't going to have the stomach for dealing with that (again).

It isn't denigrating to ask why I should upgrade if the main feature isn't going actually be in the program.

It isn't denigrating to ask what other features (if any) are coming to the program.

It isn't denigrating to point out that so far, Bondware has done a really poor job at articulating what other new features are in Poser 13.  Nothing we have been told is quantifiable.

It is Bondware's responsibility to give us a reason to buy the program.

I am still buying Poser 13, of course - but I want to know what I am getting for my money.

Now there is a fun problem.  Poser does not do something so a vendor creates a script to do something.  Does Poser now basically copy the script (or what it does) and add it to the program?  What about the person who wrote the script?  How much should they be paid if at all?  Let's say using made up numbers since I don't know the real numbers that Poser sells 10,000 copies and the script sells 50 copies @ $20 or a total of $1,000.  Does Poser give the script writer 10 cents a copy which works out to the $1,000 dollars or should they get $200,000 since 10,000 people are using his script (or the basics of his script)?  Maybe Poser should get rid of Python so people can't make up scripts to fill in the little holes and wait for the complaint's and do updates to fix these things?  The vast majority of people using Poser are never going to need the features that you are asking for.  A small number have multiple runtimes and one or two have a thousand+.

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I have said it since Poser was acquired by Bondware. The way marketing of this software is handled on their own website is awful. It took almost a year after acquisition to not have nothing but DS sponsored ads when I opened up the Poser products category,  for instance. The separate Poser tab on the landing page is the LAST category. The actual product they own. The last. And don't start me on my rant about promos.  And now the dancing back on unimesh figure and the vague feature list, less than a month from release. Barely any ads for it. No logo release. No promo excitement. Nada.

I really want Poser to succeed. But it won't if it's handled like this.

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I loved WW.  It was the only way I could cloth any characters not named V4 or M4 for years.

randym77 posted at 1:55 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457419

They did it with Wardrobe Wizard, and I think plenty of people used it. I have no idea what they paid PhilC, but they must have paid him.

I loved WW.  It was the only way I could cloth any characters not named V4 or M4 for years.

There has not been any announcement saying there is not going to be a new figure.  In fact it says "The figure to be included as a Default Scene for Poser 13 is still a closely guarded secret."

ssgbryan posted at 1:40 PM Thu, 2 March 2023 - #4457417

Most endusers are LOAD, CONFORM, MAKE ART, Y-Phil.  It has been  like this since 2004 that I am personally aware of (Poser 5 was my gateway drug).

THIS. ↑

Don't get me wrong, it's great that some Poser users love tinkering. It's made Poser better for all of us.

But the average user doesn't want to tinker. Aiming Poser at tinkerers makes no sense. Most of us, if we wanted to do more than load, conform, make art, would be using Blender or Maya or Max or something.

THIS, too. ↑

And I say it as someone who loves to tinker.

But only to a certain extent.

I love that I can make my figures look any way I like, just by using Poser's "on-board" tools.

The rigging tools are pretty much perfect "as-is", but I wouldn't mind making the morph brush even better.

Some buggy "recent improvments" should be rolled back, as they are no improvements at all.

But first and foremost development focus should be at making Poser easier to use for hobbyists.

Poser should not go the DAZ way with their extreme divide between "users" and "content creators".

Not everybody needs the latest, greates tech to render photorealistic pics.

Most people want to tell a story or just make a pretty picture.

In their spare time.

Not becoming full fledged professional 3D artists.

There are a lot of other options already for that crowd.

SOME progress is definitely good.

I love that I can weightmap and morph in Poser. That single axis scaling workes properly.

That Firefly works so well now.

But now it's time to consolidate and focus on the user experience. Not waste time trying to shoehorn a "pro" render and rigging engine into it, but widen its usability for example by much better handling of transparency or by instancing.

I dream of forrests and meadows that don't bog Poser down and render in realtime.

Of "out of the box" realistically sculpted figures whose rigging is optimized for Poser.

Which yet can be used and modified as easily as Posette and Dork could be back in the Poser 4 times.

I want the FUN back in Poser.

The playfullness.

Full on photorealism needs absolute perfection.

And perfection is exhausting and boring.

Well we do seem to have somewhat of a consensus that most Poser users want an easy life, an easy to use program - so we come back to the fact that most users content was made for FireFly and frankly works best with FireFly unless you are a major tinkerer - if SuperFly is the future it has to be backwards compatible and so far it isn't - users need to be able to just load a FireFly mat and have it work in SuperFly with no tinkering.