I'm seriously contemplating returning Poser 5. Went to CL web site and read the return policy. Please read this and see if this means what I think it does...I cannot find wording that says the product can be returned unless it is unopened or defective...as in bad CD, etc...and defective merchandise seems to be an exchange not a refund. I have to assume CL would refund in the case of P5 considering the condition of the released product, but it states here credit for unopened or exchange of defective products. ------------------------------------------------------ Return Policy Curious Labs only accepts returns on unopened product purchased directly from our store and defective merchandise within 90 days of purchase. If you would like to return an unopened copy and did not purchase directly from Curious Labs, please contact the place of purchase for a return. In order to process your return of an unopened product, please send an email message to orders@curiouslabs.com to request an RMA number with the reason for requesting a return. Please provide your order number from our online store. If you are requesting an exchange of defective merchandise, please email service@curiouslabs.com with why you believe the product is defective to receive an RMA number. If you did not order from the online store, you will need to provide proof of purchase before we can proceed with the exchange. We will ship the new parts to you upon receipt of your defective materials. You may choose to have your replacement sent immediately, but please be prepared to provide a credit card number to hold while we are waiting for the return of your product. All exchanged products not returned within 30 days will be charged to the card at the price of the parts as listed on our Replacement Parts Order Form. Upon receipt of returns of unopened product, we will re-credit your account for the price of the product. We do not re-credit shipping charges. Please include your contact phone number and email address with the return, and we will contact you to let you know that we have re-credited the price of the product. Refunds Please see the Return Policy if you would like to return your product. Upon receipt of your returned product, we will re-credit your account for the price of the product. We do not re-credit shipping charges. Please include your contact phone number and email address with the return, and we will contact you to let you know that we have re-credited the price of the product.

I think CL works like most software dealers. If you opened the CD wallet, you can no longer return it. On my copy of P5 it had in bold type on a sticker on the front of the CD wallet that basically if you open this package you will be unable to return it. So if you opened it, tested it, and now you don't like it (due to the many occuring bugs) According to CL you are unable to return it. I hope this answered your question, but I guess a more direct answer from CL would be better. Cedric

But they do allow you to exchange defective products. Maybe you should return your copy and ask for one that works properly... LOL! - Jack

no software company takes returns on opened software, it would be too easy to load it onto your computer register it and then return it using some excuse, leaving the full version on your computer for you to use, as well as burning copys. of course it never hurts to ask perhaps they would take into account your dissapointment with the software, but I wouldn't count on it.

Ahh wdupre the full version of the program would only work as long as your hard drive and system stays stable and working, eventually it will have to be reinstalled. And as far as burning it how do you do that. Unless you want to burn off the windows registry and a whole lot of other junk I don't think it is going to work very well. It's just the nature of the game buy badly coded software and get stuck with it. No one in the software industry wants to give back your money even if the product you buy is total useless. I have True Space 5, don't even use it it's that buggy and bad at times on my machine. I paid almost 600 dollars for it and can't get my money back. Imagine buying a TV or real product that was defective and upon trying to return it was told, sorry we don't take back products after the purchase. How would you feel. It's really not that much different with software that doesn't deliver as far as I'm concerned. Just one of the things we have to live with. And thank god we have forums so others can make educated decisions before they too fall victim to this bull.....:)

I have True Space 5, don't even use it it's that buggy... I paid almost 600 dollars for it and can't get my money back. Agreed- most publishers will not provide a refund once the package has been opened. But Caligari offers a 30 day refund period. Mailings I have received from them in the past have indicated that this is an unconditional offer. Jasc also will provide time limited refunds on opened software although they require a signed affidavit that no copies are retained by the user. I can't remember specific names but recall that several others have similar policies. At least there are some software publishers who are enlightened. I've only ever returned one software package and that was in a retail outlet. It was against policy but I created such a stink I think they gave me a refund just to make me go away... - Jack

What about if you try to install it, read the EULA, and don't agree to it? You are then supposed to return the (opened) software for a refund, aren't you? Anyway, Curious Lab's returns policy can't override your statutory rights as a consumer, under which you have rights if your purchase proves not to be of merchantable quality.

I did write an email to CL prior to posting this....it will be interesting to see their reply. The software industry gets away with murder IMO...quite often. We are dealing with CL right now, and it appears they are at least attempting to correct their error...mostly, from what I've read, was caused by a funding shortfall---therefore they released P5 before they should have...we all know the deal, I think.... But, how many software packages do you own that the bugs were never fixed...new versions come out, you pay your cash, and the original bugs are still there. It happens all the time. There are even bugs in P5 that were in P4... That is the stuff that needs legislation to correct, or maybe some lawyers. Software companies leave their customers in a lurch quite often...and with the no return policy on opened software, the consumer is pretty much up a creek without a paddle. Curious has a cash flow problem, well, I guess it was no flow, for whatever reason...I would assume Avatar Lab was probably not a real big seller...so to get that influx of cash they popped an unfinished , buggy product on us. I'm hoping they at least have the courtesy, and maybe call it common sense, to at least offer the refund under the circumstances.

I think it depends on their legal definition of "defective". There's no doubt the software does not work as promised, in my mind that IS defective. However CL's definition of defective might mean that it doesn't run at all.

yo could always try to sue for misrepresentation and an inability to get teh product to work as promised ;-] I'll bet you'd get a refund mighty quick from any software company who put out a buggy program. While the courts have upheld the return policy of software companies they have also shown that the program must work as promised and that the swoftware company is respopnsible to insure proper working software. Me? I'm waiting until it's bug free and some one tells me if the full body morphs are working yet. So many sold their souls for this software I hope it proves worth it..

When I worked at Best Buy 10 years ago (woah.. damn, I am old) I had more than one screaming match with a customer because we wouldn't accept opened software. Legally we just couldn't. (This was in Denver, CO.) We could exchange it for the SAME software.. we just couldn't give you your money back. It didn't matter if it blew up your machine, killed your grandmother, and burned your dog beyond recognition.. we couldn't take the software back due to piracy laws and our contracts with the software companies. I had customers call me a bitch, a c**t, and an asshole, but I had to stand my ground and say "sorry, due to our contracts with the software companies and local laws I simply CANNOT take this software back." But, I will tell you a little secret. In all my years in customer service, I was 2000% more likely to do my damnedest help you if you treated me with the respect due to any human being. I suspect that most people in the service industry are like that.

Kiera I know that retail stores can not take software back -but software companies themselves can. Frankly I think yelling and screaming at a customer service rep is a waste of time - take it higher up - and then scream ;-]

"So many sold their souls for this software I hope it proves worth it".

I didn't know souls we going for $130.00 these days, that's cheap :-)

-JH.

truly it is JeffH - that makes it all that much sadder....

hmmm if anyone wants to pay me 130.00 for my soul you can reach me @ bobmook@hotmail.com, I could use the money.

Try reading some of the Micro$oft user agreements, or some of the ones that come with the big PC games. Terry Pratchett once wrote that software agreements were the best idea a demon had in the last century (that and the M25 loop in London - "Good Omens"). I think that one of the early agreements on DOS said something about "First Born Son"...

you have rights if your purchase proves not to be of merchantable quality. Here's where it could get tricky- what is the definition "merchantable quality"? If P5 works fine on someone's 2.8Ghz Intel P5 with 2G RAM, 100G HD, then it's "merchantable". But, if the software doesn't work on an "average" machine, does that mean it is not "merchantable"? I wonder if you can prove software is "defective" if it never works properly on your own computer? But, there is definitely no "satisfaction guarantee" return policy- if you don't like the software (or it crashes on your PC), you're stuck with it. --John

I think you'll find that merchantable quality is a highly debateable term as "wrapped in pretty paper with a bow" makes it "merchantable"... However, if the software does not work satisfactorily to prevent user related stress on the lowest specified machine spec on the box then you have grounds to return the software to the manufacturer - or at least discuss return with them. The UK recently went through a small upheaval when a company and two private individuals successfully sued a software company into accepting return AND paying compensation due to "user stress". The court accepted that the software was (not operating as advertised) such a damn pain for the users to work with (bugs, unfriendly interface etc) that it caused them stress. It's a litigious world we live in and even software companies need to be careful these days. Hrrmm... maybe I should order Poser5, I could do with a nice handy payout for stress related psychological injuries. :) JeffH. 130 dollars? That seems quite high considering what some people are selling their souls for these days. G

Since it looks like buyer beware when you break the shrink wrap on this one, I'll patiently wait for a demo version to check out first.

Well you know what they say, "human life is the cheapest thing on Earth" I wonder if the devil knows about the $130 blue plate specials :) "Step right up folks, every one a winner.." later jb

Of course Bill Gates knows about the $130 blueplate specials. He knows about all the evil things being done, and is cooking up more in his headquarters at M$/Hell every second. ;o)

Ah, now that's where you are way wrong and so far off base it's almost invisible Allen9. Why on this green earth makes you think it's Billy Boy that's doing it? Why else would he employ so many faceless men with briefcases if he did it himself? Hell no, it's more efficient and legal to get an army of lawyers to do that crap for you. :) Then you just sit back, count the dollars and bank the souls. smirk

EULAs and advertising in today's software market contain more loopholes than a crotchless knitted dress...the loopholes are called 'interpretations', and the interpreters are lawyers and not merchants or end-users. I hope Curious Labs manages to salvage themselves in this P5 fiasco...and that this hard learned lesson will be remembered when the time rolls around for Poser 6.

OK OK get technical... so he's OVERSEEING the cooking up of more evil every second, and as usual the various worker drones of his nefarious hive are doing the real work while he sits back and stacks the souls in his 'pettycash' drawer (grinning and chortling fiendishly the whole while, no doubt). Just like in EVERY overstuffed corporate monster these days, only bigger and more insidiously evil as is fitting for the King of Damnation. (Sheeesh, picky picky picky! Damn, I gotta get my saucer fixed and get off this backwater rock soon.) ;o)

snicker