...and scoop up all the admins? Are they off doing ecstasy together? Are they lost in the snow? Did their van break down? Are they locked in Ironbear's basement? I'm starting to get worried--it seems like a really long time since we've heard from them.

Probably just taking the "Holiday Season" off. I have heard rumors that admins are human, too; though I have not seen any empirical evidence to back up that hypothesis yet. :0)

Could be, could be--but how do we know they haven't fallen and can't get up? Couldn't they call once in a while? Is that so hard?

Is it too much to expect that they'd spend the days around Christmas away and with family?

Well, ok--if you say so. I'm just a little worried, is all. I'll never forgive myself if something's happened to 'em--if they keel over in their apartment, it could be days before anyone finds them.

"Oh where oh where can the admins be? The mothership took them away from me... Now we're on our own and we've got to be good - So that we can be with em when we leave... this world." ;] NIMBY - Not in my basement yet. [I live in Texas... we don't have basements. Only storm cellars.]

IB's revision of J. Frank Wilson's "Last Kiss"?

Got it in one I think. ;]

Yeah,You did get it in one Bear. 100 times better than Pearl Jam's attempt also. 8 ) Tom

Pearl Jam did a cover of "Last Kiss"? Eeew. I may be ill....

Actually its kind of nice without them, maybe this will start a trend? One can only hope. I'd be willing to bet though, if someone started a flame war they would be here in a flash. More's the pity. Hey lets start a C&D and see if anyone from admin notices.

Mosca, the adminstration here probably has their very own real life kids to spend Christmas time with before they would ever want to hurry back to spend time dealing with any of their online ones. I think there might be a 'signifigance' factor here on their part. You may want to chew frantically on a teether of some sort until they have time to leave all that hometown feeling and return here just to please you. Happy Boxing Day

Billy, I have seen some of your posts and have to wonder, do you really feel we should all just blindly sit by and take whatever comes from admin? Cancle the voting on AOY ?sure great decision, suspend a member for bringing up other contest irregularitys, great no prob? I have to tell you that will NEVER happen. Artists by nature are very outspoken. If you find that offensive then maybe you should reconsider coming to art sites.

yeah!...watch out Billy...don't presume to dissent with the dissenters, or they might pounce on ya, just like they accuse admin of doing with them...lol! ;-)>

He can dissent all he wants. I just wish he had a more interesting angle.

There you go Billy, you've been given permission to dissent...and I do believe the irony implicit in my last post went over some people's heads! LOL, yes Mosca " a more interesting angle"...have you ever thought to try that sometime? ...heh heh...
:-)>

"Billy, I have seen some of your posts and have to wonder, do you really feel we should all just blindly sit by and take whatever comes from admin?" Spiritbro77 I have to ask you, do you really feel the Administration staff here should all just blindly sit by and take whatever comes from Mosca? Seems to me as if they are. Seems to me they take more than their share of crap from their members and all these continuing posts are proof of that. I have been to different forums where far less is tolerated, I assure you, members here do have a big voice! I have also been enlightened somewhat as to why Mosca seems so determined to have his say, and I do have to give the Mosca due "credit" for being so determined to stick up for his friend Legume here for what he may feel to be some sort of injustice towards Legume due to some past possible grievance. I must ask if the "way" this is being enacted is indeed "proper" though?? Although Mosca's passion for all this is admirable I do wonder if all this could not be resolved with more more private avenues and not so blatantly openly obvious to make the site staff look like a bunch of imcompetent boobs. I would imagine artists to have a very outspoken voice by nature, I would expect that much and I would also take it for granted that the folks that run this place or any other art forum KNOW exactly this and what they are getting themselves in for when they open an artistic community. IF they do NOT, they have no business even trying to run an art site because it would be fatalisticly self destructive indeed! I also don't think staff of any site should be subject to all out open ridicule and abuse from anyone especially when they offer so much of a vast community area with so much potential foundation and wealth to so many here. I do wonder if the folks that run this place are used to this kind of screaming and yelling and so that is why it is tolerated so openly. I read somewhere that this place once had a big huge complaint forum of some kind that was shut down because the members didn't know how to behave or abused it or something like that. I believe this Poppi person has reminisced about this quite often and I have seen several other members bring this up more than once in various threads and sound almost like they lost their best friend when that particular forum was ended. It appears many members seem to regret losing that forum like it had some special attraction here. It's a real shame I have come so late onto all this because I would have enjoyed seeing something so vital to the members as this Complaint forum with first hand experience. If this stuff happening here is just a small example of what used to go on there, I can just imagine what a profound headache the staff must have endured; unfortunatly it also seems no one here has learned anything from the loss of this so called Complaint forum. It may explain why the members here are so cocky and full of injective attitude though. If this forum has had a more leniant time during the past and condoned so much for the sake of art, one then would understand the open rabble fests. It would indeed take time and consistent re-learning to establish conformity and teamwork, especially among so many diverse and emotionally charged creative folks; and when you have a few boisterous folks practicing their soprano lessons with every opportunity such as this, it makes restructuring even more difficult. I believe I understand this more now. It may actually have nothing at all to really do with Legume, but then again it may; and if it does, then Legume seems to be an unfortunate person caught up in all this somehow due to his outspoken art, or this past greivance Mosca is playing on, or Legume might even be being used as a catylist either by the members or the staff, (sheer speculation on my part), which would then be unfair to Legume, yes. The staff here have said that Legume has nothing to do with this, but Mosca mainatins it does, a duel of sorts? I really don't think it has anything to do with Mosca directly, except I thin Mosca certainly thinks it does, and I won't try to tell him otherwise, I do think amidst trying to speak for his friend Legume Mosca also just likes the attention he is getting too. I am starting to see that I have come onto this place just as there seems to be some kind of forum evolution of sorts, that would explain a lot of the dissention and almost near rioting at the smallest drop of a pin here; it does take so little to cause a ruckus and everyone seems so edgy and touchy even at the most spiritual time of year. I know there is also much worse forum type places around on the internet, mostly gaming sites full of snot nosed kids that don't know any better and so they are allowed to run rampant and destroy one another, those forums are great fun for sport and a great timewaster with really no substance and nothing as far as professional quality and business fortune ventures which is what these artistic places are seemingly about upon onset. One would expect a certain clientele here that would be more inclined to have structure and class and above all as much respect "for" this place as they would expect "from" this place. Right now this art forum seems a little member self gratuitous, almost like many folks here somehow got really spoiled over time and now scream "MOMMA" because they have to grow up and don't like the rules that come with that prospect. My apologies if this sounds fragilistic, I suppose this is an overall viewpoint from a newer member that has been told several times already to almost "bud out" of all this. On one hand this place is so "friendly" with creativity and community spirit and even commercialistic attraction like that of a huge family store with a welcoming committee galore. On another aspect there is almost a very dark side to this forum that shadows itself readily whenever stuff like this happens, and one such as me almost feels as if I am being ogled and watched suspiciously as I am told I am welcome and to feel at home,....."Oh, but come in fine sir, but do not touch anything or even stand too long in one place and above all keep very quiet and out of site and mind amidst the noise here because we don't like strange distractions or interruptions."

Hey, you guys can try to make this about me all you want; it's pretty much what I expected. But you know what? It's not about me. I'm just asking questions, trying to figure out what 's going on with this AOY thing. I'm being civil (more than I can say for some of management's apologists), and staying squarely within the TOS, at least as I read it. Apparently, nobody from management cares to address the message--it's a lot easier to attack the messenger. You go, boys, but insulting me doesn't change anything--it just looks like more of the usual diversionary bullshit from the PTB.

"Although Mosca's passion for all this is admirable I do wonder if all this could not be resolved with more more private avenues and not so blatantly openly obvious to make the site staff look like a bunch of imcompetent boobs." Hey, they don't need any help from me.

"I'm being civil (more than I can say for some of management's apologists), and staying squarely within the TOS, at least as I read it." "I do wonder if all this could not be resolved with more more private avenues and not so blatantly openly obvious to make the site staff look like a bunch of imcompetent boobs." "Hey, they don't need any help from me."

All right Billy and Punk, Everyting is just great. No problems at all here and if there were we really shouldnt say anything about them. Cool by me but when you get banned for stating an opinion or bringing something to light, dont expect anyone to say anything because everything is JUST GREAT! Bannings? Terrific! No more voting for Members on anything? Great! Topics being moved and Locked? Great! Now lets all sing together, Every thing is beautiful, in its own way.....

Enormous, excessive sarcasm is another symptom of change, it would seem.

"I have also been enlightened somewhat as to why Mosca seems so determined to have his say, and I do have to give the Mosca due "credit" for being so determined to stick up for his friend Legume here for what he may feel to be some sort of injustice towards Legume due to some past possible grievance. " I don't know Mosca any more than I know Legume. Seen them around the forums a few times thats it, Im pissed cause my vote doesnt count for shit anymore and the rules are changed around here in the middle of contests.People are banned for their oppinions. X2000 got suspended for a week for bringing up some disturbing occurances during a contest in the past. Fuck it, if you guys think its ok that all this is going on then woo hoo things are just great here. But when the hangman comes for you dont expect anyone to give a shit we will all be to busy enjoying how terrific everything is. Wouldnt want to rock the boat would we?

""I'm being civil (more than I can say for some of management's apologists), and staying squarely within the TOS, at least as I read it." " Doesnt matter if your within the TOS, if they dont like you or what you are saying you will dissapear, if they do like you and what you are saying you can violate the TOS all you want and be safe.

Well, the answer is fairly simple, Mosca: The admins have been here all along, and you've even been debating with 'em this whole time. Kinda funny, after a fashion, though it is kinda sad in a way. /P

I don't know you, Spiritbro77 any more than I know Legume or Mosca. Seen them around the forums a few times thats it, Im pissed cause my opinion doesnt count for shit here anymore than anyone else that may be 'green' and the rules are changed around here midstream by the members. People are spat on for their opinions. The staff here are less respected for what they do or say than a bunch of sniveling, slurping, dirty morons in a soup kitchen. Fuck it, if you guys think its ok that all this is going on then woo hoo things are just great here. But when you all hang yourselves dont expect anyone to give a shit. You may all be to busy enjoying how terrific everything isn't when you see a "site not found" at the top of your browser. Wouldn't want to rock the boat of dissention mongers would we? You know, I can be just as fond of playing with sarcasm as the next person, and I also think it works BOTH ways. Perhaps we should just appeal to the staff to allow this place to actually BE a free for all and pass out guns, ammo and knives and maybe even bazooka's at the entranceway and let the membership and staff go at it?? Better yet, let's lynchmob the staff and scramble the prizes and take over the joint and ransack the entire marketplace and make the gallery and discussion boards a free for all!! I would actually be inclined to enjoy such a fortune of caustic, catastrophic events a place such as this would endure in a scenario like this, the bloodshed and waste would be a tale to be told for countless ages online, but at what kind of cost? How long has this huge place been here and taken to grow to such gigantic proportions? I have also heard from various sorts that what I have just proposed sarcastically above has pretty well happened here before anyways; it was all a part of what indeed has made this place so...BIG...and also prosperous and precious in many ways. Do we go backwards now and relive that enactment and see if we can do this all again? I would hope this place has learned from past and gone forward enough to somehow deal with this more professionally and diplomatically as a result of past scrambled charging among the ruins. I think that if anything, the staff here may be wanting to make certain that all the things here that have been "gained" through past hardships, are maintained and even enhanced to grow forward towards a more peaceful and professional outlook instead of backwards to where it seems no one really respected anyone unless they had a bigger gun or grenade up their nose instead of a flowing brush and creative hand. I can comprehend the value of a free for all and more "space" in a place that may be a lot smaller and where everyone really kind of knows one another. I have seen that format work most efficiently in such places because then the members really do have a way of taking care of themselves and any rigamortus that may offer themselves into that kind of scenario is deadmeat on their own accord. It is all about teamwork and friendship and close bonding and actually really "caring" about one another and coming together time and time again and sharing that same space and "knowing" each others boundaries and respecting the value of one another both individually and as a whole. That works if you have the right people and the right place, and I think although there are many, many people here just like this, there are also many not like this; this place is just too BIG for it to work this way here. Ironically I do think the staff here do want this kind of flavor here, but because it is so darn huge, it needs policing and policing can be hard and direct and cold and it can get in the way and be looked at the wrong way especially in an emotionally charged place like this where you get folks from both sides of the coin happening too often and out of control too easily. Many may come here for family reasons, many others may come here just to be a pain in the ass and many others may be here just to sell or profit, and yet many others just to buy stuff and others, just to post a show and say "look at me!" Then you get folks that are like me that just come to look at pretty pictures and suddenly stumble in one day to see what else is here. Now, I may well have easily crossed the wrong person here myself if I was that way and gotten myself banned or cast out quite easily too, it sometimes doesn't take much even in the real world to get stopped by a cop. I have seen people get stopped by police and begin to give them an earful midstream of getting a ticket which resulted in another ticket and eventually even a pair of handcuffs and a visit to the station because they could not shut up! Maybe the person being fined had a point about being picked on while ten other folks got away speeding, or how she saw the officer looking up her skirt or maybe the officer was being unfair somehow or not within the rights of the law; but was she making this point the right way at the right time and is there not a place better to do this and a better way than to risk losing that credibility for the sake of the moment? And what if the officer was right and the person fined was just causing grief and spite for getting caught? I think once a place gets THIS big as I see this place being, it becomes like real world economics and requires laws and a specific order or it does stand to lose more than it can possibly gain from a free for all place where the membership should be trusted to sort out the mess in whatever way they want. Just like a real world scenario I don't think the amount of members and staff here can really be expected to have this place with no rules and conduct and responsibility because in such a vast place there is just far too much heresay and variance of circumstance, nevermind emotions aplenty. I do wonder though, if a place such as this, that has needed to "enforce" policing of sorts to keep the place from in fact falling apart from so many mindsets and diversities, whether they shouldn't really consider having some kind of jury system?? What I mean is, hearing how folks are banned and seeing how things can get out of hand so easily and I am sure just as members can be unforgiving, so can staff at times, the emotions DO run high here bigtime, perhaps the staff here take on too much responsibility to themselves, and thus pay the price of disrespect at times because members scream unfair and shady! Maybe in some cases they should consider appointing a cast of members, some known, some unknown, perhaps picked randomly, before a judgement like a banning is decided with the final decision made by the staff of course. It "would" make members here more close to the various issues at hand and it would also give the vast membership here more responsibilty for their own actions too. This could also work with contests if done with respect to "both" sides here. I think "respect" is what it's all about here. I see that being an issue more and more. I think ultimately what IS most important is that the site is respectful in what it is trying to portray to the internet masses, and I think both the staff and members know this and want this very much but none of them want to give up any of their own respect to make this happen. Maybe this place needs a good brainstorming session rather than so many emotional outbursts upon the boards.

Yeah Sherm, Eddie Vetter did the worst remake of any song with that one. But I warn you.If you seek out this recording,please arm yourself with a barf bag and perhaps a moist towelette. It was even worse than Smashing Pumpkins trying to re-do Landslide. I could have sworn I was listening to Jerry Lewis and was waiting to hear"Nice Laaaaydy". Dude needs to seriously unclog that schnoz. 8 ) Tom

LOL, if you choose to be an admin (and it is a choice) then you must expect some crap to be flung in your direction. Comes with the job - especially on the internet. Sorry but the admins and many mods are paid to watch the forums (no matter how they are compensated - they are compensated somehow), so it's their job - not something they don't have to do if they don't feel like it or because its a holiday. No one has a problem with this place having rules because it isn't the "rules" that are the issues, it's the inconsistencies in applying them and the fines cited for rules that don't exist. Or rules applied only because they are having a problem and need to make a rule to deal with it. If X2000 still had his store here while he was banned - the site would still be making a profit while he had no rights to enter -all because he pointed out past behavior of a certain mod??? To garner respect that you m,ust exhibit the same behaviour that you wish to see in your direction. That means that if they choose to cite previous contests as an excuse for unprofessional behaviour then they must expect and recognize that their own mistakes can and will be made an issue as well. As for "emotional outbursts" lol, they would far prefer that an argument was emotional - if it's logical then they will ignore it anyhow. Emotional outbursts make the poster look like a fantic and they would far prefer that then having to address a real question put across logically. The thread by Mosca below (that you and LC tried so hard to take off track) was created from a non-emotional stance. The points he made in the beginning were well put and franky quite on target. But then you got personal & emotional ("Do you have a nagging wife Mosca? With no offense meant at all I only ask this because sometimes those that do usually have a lot of issues, like you seem to." - let's face it you wouldn't have posted that if you hadn't meant offense) and took it off the track it was on. Admins never responded or answered either, and now when they do it willbe to address the bickering and not the original topic.

hawkfyr, something to be said about Jerry Lewis, but this isn't the place for it. LadySilverMage, (nice catchy name, very sultry and eloquent), something to be said for throwing threads off track and hawkfyr above just did it very well. As for the nagging wife bit, if it makes Mosca feel better, I had one of those once too. She nagged and nagged till she was blue, if only she might have taken the time to stop nagging for even a moment, she might have realized I was attempting to say..."Goodbye, I have had enough of your nagging!". Sometimes it takes longer for some folks to reply than others, if they in fact CAN reply. Although if what you say about the admins here getting paid for their efforts is true, they would indeed be expected to fashion a reasonable accord here not only to staff issues but membership issues as well. However they would still have to answer to whomever pays them. The folks that actually run the place most likely DO have a real life sp easily forgotten in the online realm of things, just like every other person here has a life I would hope to presume. I would also assume that an answer so valued by Mosca for his pleas is one that would most likely make no difference to anything if it came from anyone less than this Tammy or whoever else oversees this art forum. And then there is that ever lingering question of whether an answer is even warranted, because an explanation WAS given and responsibility WAS claimed, unfortunatly it WAS also not good enough for Mosca, thus, we have, many, many posts unending here. Perhaps the best we can hope for is a valid solution to future development about all this, as has been proposed and apparently being worked on, "hopefully" from both sides. I still wonder if a jury idea might not be a bad idea; okay, so what if the folks running this place are paid, sometimes that in itself can even get in the way of emotional substance too because monetary value can so easily overtake the heartfelt passions of human thinking. If a team of totally unbiased and unswayed persons that have no expectations whatsoever and feel no fear of backlash could be summoned to quench the real heavy issues here when need be, I think it would make a difference to both sides. Just an opinion. Unfortunatly I haven't a clue how this could be done or if it is even possible in a forum place like this. That is why I suggested the brainstorming.

BillyJ wrote somewhere deep in #26:

I do wonder though, if a place such as this, that has
needed to "enforce" policing of sorts to keep the place
from in fact falling apart from so many mindsets and
diversities, whether they shouldn't really consider having
some kind of jury system??

A jury system? You mean like, a vote? They tried that and
it didn't work. :-)

A vote like that you suggest ASalina is not at all the same thing as a jury. That would be like having a country wide vote determine the fate of each court hearing. Somehow I don't think that would prove justifiable. Let it be known that I do understand the sarcasm of your post though, comparing it to what happened with this contest is commendable although it is nothing even near the same. Your kind of "vote" scopes the vastness of the internet and beyond, my opinion is one kept to a mainframe of only a very few "members and staff" actually deliberating between themselves and then approaching the people in charge who would ultimately still have the final word, hopefully based on the decision among the team depending on argument and circumstance.

"because an explanation WAS given and responsibility WAS claimed, unfortunatly it WAS also not good enough for Mosca" Billy I think that comment above is the problem - you seem to feel that Mosca is the onoy one wiht a problem over this, in fact many have a problem over the way the past contests (and current one)are handled. Generally though Mosca is able to aks the hjard questions succintly. Me - I don't really bother questioning anymore, I may comment now and then - nothing will change and answers will generally be evasive. I have done what my conscious has decided - which was to pull my store from here, when I & others were treated unfairly. I still make an occasional purchase here, but I look elsewhere for what I want first before I buy it here. I do not vote for the contests because I feel there is really no point in that. Time and time again this has shown to be the case. Perhaps in your rush to be judgemental to Mosca you are overlooking something. He wouldn't bother if it didn't matter to him.

"LadySilverMage, (nice catchy name, very sultry and eloquent)" Because I am ;-D

BillyJ wrote in #31:

Let it be known that I do understand the sarcasm of your
post though, comparing it to what happened with this
contest is commendable although it is nothing even near
the same.

No, Billy, I don't think you quite understand my sarcasm.
Given rosity's apparent track record w/r/t letting members
make decisions (as manifested in various votes and polls),
the idea of a jury system - where a set of members make
decisions that the admins must abide by - will never work.
From what I've read here, it would seem that rosity has a
tendancy to over-ride the decisions of it's members at it's
whim. That would render any member-based jury system
toothless.

Addendum to my last post:

BillyJ also writes in #31:

Your kind of "vote" scopes the vastness of the internet and
beyond, my opinion is one kept to a mainframe of only a
very few "members and staff" actually deliberating between
themselves and then approaching the people in charge who
would ultimately still have the final word, hopefully based
on the decision among the team depending on argument and
circumstance.

If those in charge would still have the final word, then
what would the point of a jury be? As it stands we have
a jury system like what you describe; we're all jurors
right now, deliberating until we're blue in the face, and
as can be seen it's effecting absolutely nothing.

Hawk didn't throw it offtrack, BJ. Hawkfyr picked back up with a track from posts # 8 and 9 that were running shortly before you dropped in. ;] No fears Hawk - I can get enough Pearljam fed to me on the commercial stations when I'm driving. I'm not likely to go out looking for anything by them. Joan Jett and the Blackhearts did the only really good remix of a 50's tune I've heard over the years. A lot of the people doing covers should stick to butchering their origional works.

If I can get thru Metalica doing, Lynyrd Skynyrd's "Tuesdays Gone", then I can get thru just about anything ! Even BJ's frickin novelettes !

I was wondering if it would be possible, when the AOY issue has been dealt with, for the Admins to organise a free-for-all fight between the more vocal members of the community. A real one, I mean, perhaps organised in the theme of a tag match or a gladiatorial contest, with weapons and nets. And lions. As very few of the arguments on this board (I mean discussions, of course) are ever concluded satisfactorily, I had an idea that unabridged violence might be the answer. Photographs of the carnage could then be posted in the photography gallery for all to enjoy. The logistics of this would have to be thought about, but I reckon it could work. And if it proves successful, a similar method could be used to settle all Renderosity disputes, no matter how small, and everyone would be the better for it.

What a great idea ! In case of a tie all the renderosity members could vote for the winn..........oops, never mind..........

Well, perhaps Tammy and Company can even organize a Lion pit and Gladiator combat to settle these disputes, since your all so funny now, thought I would join along in the festivities. I think that's a swell idea, so who should go first and where...??

No lions - wolves; easier to come by wolves in North America. LOL@ Badco... yeah - wouldn't want anyone to get any funny ideas, dammit... >:) /P

"I think that's a swell idea, so who should go first and where...?? " grabs Billy and throws him into the pit Ko. Loose the Mutant Ferrets! ;]

"Seen them around the forums a few times thats it, Im pissed cause my opinion doesnt count for shit here anymore than anyone else that may be 'green' and the rules are changed around here midstream by the members." Sorry, but there is a difference. Mosca's opinion could be summed up as "I'm upset about this and I want to express my feelings about it." Yours could be summed up as "I want Mosca to shut up already, I don't want to hear it." Doesn't work, sorry.

As an ex-C&D mod to an ex-OT mod, wanna get a betting pool going on "Who is BillyJ really?" ;] I'm sure that between all of the regulars in the 5 or 6 threads on this, we've got enough accumulated forum years of observation to make some turly entertaining guesses. ;]

IB it's Legume hes turned over a new leaf and HATES controversy!

Sure, whynot? What's teh ante? I'm low on money, but I've got... uh... fruitcake..... (Hang on, I just identified the subject.)

Hrmmm... I'm low on cash also. ;[ AH! I have a pan and a half oc double-chocolate-fudge-suicide brownies left. Heh heh... we can make the ante "Left over XMass snacks". Only trouble is, some of these things don't mail well... so getting the pot to the winner might be problematical. Nah.... Spirit - I think it's ClintH. He's been working in the store so long he finally snapped. ;]

Nah, if Clint snapped, he'd be at the beach, happily walking on the water. ;]

And if JeffH snapped... no one could tell. ;]

My bets on Tim. "Nah, if Clint snapped, he'd be at the beach, happily walking on the water. ;] " " And if JeffH snapped... no one could tell. ;] " Too fuckin funny!Now I have to clean the burbon from my keyboard!

Lurking for a year (and occasionally posting) I don't think it's Tim. BillyJ is way too wordy. I think the thing that will link him to who he is really is his very first post in he Poser Forums (And this relates to poser how?) and his making sure to add the cheery ending at the end of each of his posts. Food for thought. JDexter