I'm with Jack 100 per cent. It's time that CL delivered what was promised!

Once again my long eloquent post gets trashed due to time out(must type out of rosity box arrgghh) I don't feel like flaming today, perhaps we can get back to constructive posts? I took a week or 2 off to calm down and so maybe I can try to help, I won't claim brilliant but P5 works for, why won't it work for others? For the user who says P5 is too hard to use(as in complicated) my advice would be to crawl in a box and seal it shut unless you plan to take time to learn something new. since I seem to be one of the lucky few who have a working as advertised P5 copy(note I don't do animation and have not any CL advert that claims update animation, if you have seen one please show me. Heresay doesn't count) let me ask you a few questions( I have a dell 1.4gig p4, nvidia card, 512mb ram btw) So we know the system...but what is the problem(lets be more eloquent than "It don work, ma!")? Are you running anything else at the same time? what happens when it craps out? Error, does it just quit, does it hang? What are you trying to render, have you installed any of patches?(If not I will say I don't believe you are trying to help your self) What have you tried in the program? I tried finding your OS info and failed, what are you trying to run it on? (Listing B5 doesn't count it since it should only be 4.4 really):) CL prolly bought the new proggie, not coded it themselves, who know what market that is for.

Ok... here is what I have to say. 1 - This product is STUPID! The web boom is over, and 3D on the web has been nothing but an absolute failure and will remain so for a long time to come because there is no business use for it and users really dont like tons of spinning and whirling junk on their screens. If 3D on the web were viable companies with GOOD programmers like Macromedia, IBM, Adobe, Microsoft and Apple would have been all over it years ago. Even Shockwave 3D is barely hanging on. They have all put up better efforts than this and they all bombed. I guess CL thinks that Avatar Lab was some kind of success? Or maybe another company just pumped some money into CL to get them to write this new turd. 2 - If you had any doubts that CL has absolutely no plans to put out a Mac version of Poser 5, let this be your eye opener! CL has ZERO focus when it comes to product planning and development, and very poor programming skills in house and their entire product like is demonstrative of this. 3 - If you ever expected to get a solid and speedy version of Poser 5 for PC let this be your eye opener! Actually finishing a program before moving on seems to be something that CL just cant handle, or doesnt care to. Interactive environments already exist online through gaming engines and MMOLRP, and many of them are almost photorealistic. The Viewpoint format and concept is dead and gone. Get over it.

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• For the user who says P5 is too hard to use(as in complicated) my advice would be to crawl in a box and seal it shut unless you plan to take time to learn something new. * I believe that this has really had nothing to do with most of the criticism regarding P5. Quite the opposite, in fact, as it has always seemed to me that those who have pushed the program the farthest and hardest have found the most to complain about, while the staunchest defenders have also been the ones struggling to get to grips with even the simplest of the new features. Maybe it all boils down to expectations. This, of course excludes the unfortunates who had problems getting it to work in the first place... HOWEVER... Regarding Pro-V, although I agree with the sentiment that it would have been a kick in the teeth for P5 users to discover that CL had been putting their resources into developing this mega-app while neglecting the development of P5, I suspect (but don't know) that the app has probably been developed by the parent company (EGI-SYS) or associates, but is being marketed through CL simply to give it a US branding and purchase point. Even in these strange times it seems unlikely that the CL developers, who a few short months ago were working without pay to get the product out the door, and have since then been held pretty firmly to the bug fixing grindstone could have conjured this kind of rabbit from a hat in their spare time. Bill

Regarding Pro-V, although I agree with the sentiment that it would have been a kick in the teeth for P5 users to discover that CL had been putting their resources into developing this mega-app while neglecting the development of P5, I suspect (but don't know) that the app has probably been developed by the parent company (EGI-SYS) or associates, but is being marketed through CL simply to give it a US branding and purchase point. Even in these strange times it seems unlikely that the CL developers, who a few short months ago were working without pay to get the product out the door, and have since then been held pretty firmly to the bug fixing grindstone could have conjured this kind of rabbit from a hat in their spare time.>> I agree with Bill, his explanation is the only thing that makes sense.

From the company description on the EGISYS website: *********************************************************** EGISYS designs and develops tools, technologies, databases and solutions for the integration of animated 3D models and movement data into the Internet and standard software products *********************************************************** That seems to the main technological area of the company's development team. Maybe someone (with broadband) who has downloaded the demo, should check to see if the developer's names are listed in the documentation or help files. Bill

I agree with Bill, his explanation is the only thing that makes sense. Well, the other explanation that makes sense is that we have all been decived all along. Or even another explanation that makes sense is that CL just really doesnt have a solid business plan and is instead flailing about trying not to go under, thereby showing eratic business operation. Or even another explanation that makes sense is........

snickers at ScottA's excellent snickers snicker. (and activates the ebot)

I agree with Bill, too. Indeed, I made a similar suggestion over on PoserPros a few hours ago. With that (and the general paranoia pervading this place) in mind, I'd like to state that I am not a clone of williamsheil, I don't know williamsheil, and nor do I know anyone who's played williamsheil on TV. ;-)

Doom, Dooooom and Gloooooomm!!!! History is against Curious Labs!

MIMIC, way back when was to be bought out by DAZ, and the other...

Metacreationss "rotating product in the browser window" thingy.

My FUTURE SEE-ER says that Curious Labs WILL in fact release an OS-X version of Poser 5, and six months latter either be bought out by DAZ or collapse down to their competing product.

.... so that's just, what, about 4 years before that happens! LOL! ; )

"I believe that this has really had nothing to do with most of the criticism regarding P5. Quite the opposite, in fact, as it has always seemed to me that those who have pushed the program the farthest and hardest have found the most to complain about, while the staunchest defenders have also been the ones struggling to get to grips with even the simplest of the new features. Maybe it all boils down to expectations." Though I agree with the last statment, I must contest. I have not had a problem getting to grips with even the simplest new features...and I've been a staunch defender of the program.

Sleep does such horrible things for my sanity level... A couple points of clarification: I was not Flaming. Iwas pointing out the continued futility of whining about the darn thing not working and this company -- which is absolutely no different from 80% of the companies in any industry in the world (what, they're special just 'cause they make Poser?) -- going off and making a new product (which likely was developed simultaneously with P5, if not earlier than that). It is the whining that must needs cease. Jack has always put up thoughtful posts, and tries hard (though not without succumbing on occasion) to avoid sinking to name calling (stop laughing, now -- he does try. You guys try to do that if you're so perfect...). My issue is with the "yeah, me too!" posts which generally indicate little more than reading and jumping in. As for standing up to Jack, there is no such thing. Besides, he's likely taller than I am and I sit down to type. The situation is simple: if you think that you have been screwed over by Curious Labs, the tiny division of a tiny company that doesn't even really exist in the US, then make that known by exercising your right as a consumer to force them to fix what they claim is a functional product. Yes, that will cost money to do. Money that if you win, will be repaid to you. Yes, it will actually require effort on your part above and beyond sitting on your derriere and tip tapping out your latest whine without wisdom. oh me, oh my -- what is that I spy? Come on, folks. I would be willing to wager a class action could be had here (though being broke, t'would have to be something less than cash). IF you are to comment, put thought into it. If you do not know, then educate yourself first. Jack has, despite being something of a joke to many, and continues to do so. Lastly, there is one minor thing I should note -- I lack even the reasonable facsimile for sanity. Sticks and stones might break my bones, but words echo in my head eternally....

I think they have the decimal point one place too far to the right.

Multiple Undo/Redo: Multiple levels of undo/redo provide the flexible editing capabilities you expect from a professional application. Guess that shows us where Poser 5 is positioned.

::yawn::

It amazes me how so many people are willing to look the other way while they are being ripped off. I want Hair collision that works! I want ah.. Well, anyway I want my Hair Collision! I want what I was promised! Seems like a lot of people are on CL's payroll around here. They haven't deliverd what they promised. And there is NO way anyone can talk around that.

....

I think CL may have over reached itself in providing what many folks on this forum said they wanted, particularly collision detection and cloth that draped with the gravity. Now they tried to add it to an improved P4 and got something like the F111, which was called "the flying Edsel", an unsellabel auto that market research said Ford needed. Unlike the Edsel, old apps really do die.

Things were getting nice and quiet and productive, and now here's J.K. to stir up trouble again. Personally, I can't WAIT for Daz Studio to get here, so Jack and his gang can go off to play with it and leave the rest of us ALONE!!! -jjsemp

why are you yelling at J.K? he didn't make poser 5, hes just reporting , ( like the rest of P5 users) the big problems with it, i mean if you want blood, go after Kupa, hes your Poser God, not Jack.

...

They are yelling at Jack to take the focus off his original point: Poser 5 is a bad program and CL isn't going to fix it. It's a tactic used often by defenders of the guilty. Remember the OJ trial? He was innocent of the crime because Ferman used the 'n' word. See, it works! It's used a lot in criminal trials and politics. And the CL Loyal have been using it since P5's release. BTW, why should CL fix 5? They never fixed 4 and everyone eventually fell silent. And with all the defenders working so feverishly to slam people like Jack, the compliance will come even faster. FYI: I was one of the first "whiners" as we were called. I just quit because I got tired of arguing with a brick wall. Bravo, Jack! Keep it up. (But where were you the first month?! We coulda used some more help)

I'm yelling at Jack because once you've made a point, you don't have to keep making it over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and....? ...annoying, isn't it? We've got the point. The constant repetition of it comes off as self-absorption...and...as somebody said above...hints at a personal agenda. -jjsemp

Kind of like the people who constantly post such rhetoric in the threads when someone is expressing a concern or complaint?

Jackson asked: "(But where were you the first month?! We coulda used some more help)" Honestly? I was stunned pretty much into silence to see CL release Poser 5 the way it was. I also hadn't received my NFR copy of Poser 5, so I didn't have a way to gage the bugs from the beta stage to final stage. It wasn't till many of the bugs being reported publicly did I begin to see a trend that disappointed and angered me. Also, in the interest of being honest, part of me was worried that if I spoke up it would go against any further involvement or relationship that I could have with CL and admittedly would also affect my livelihood. At which point I had to make a decision where my loyalities were going to lie... obviously, I've choosen speak out against CL and Poser 5 and destroyed any possiblity of having ties with that company. It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make. Jack

The thing is it shouldn't affect your relationship with CL. Ya see, this is AMERICA! Where you can have unpopular views and opinions without any fear of backlash or reprisals! And I would think you would be able to see that from the threads here are Renderosity! Freedom and Liberty are still going strong in America! Of course that means people like jjsemp, MachineClaw, and soulhuntre are free to be jerks as well.

Haha. The Jerk was a funny movie.

"Also, in the interest of being honest, part of me was worried that if I spoke up it would go against any further involvement or relationship that I could have with CL and admittedly would also affect my livelihood. At which point I had to make a decision where my loyalities were going to lie.." --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hmm... so you did not "speak up"About the flawed state of the initial release until it became apparrent that there was no money to made as a P5 product merchant?? thanks for your honesty , im not being sarcastic, as MAC, Lightwave, Cinema4DXL, poserpro4 user, I have no dog in this poser5/CL loyalty fight, but i think more people should disclose potential financial/business ties to Companies that they defend or heavily endorse here in these forums. it would prevent alot of anger and mistrust after events such as the intentional sale of a heavily promoted product that was known to be rather "defective" in some areas. Awaiting DAZ Studio For MAC OSX :-) .

I've largely stayed out of this thread, for two reasons: 1) I've already gotten my $0.48 in over at PoserPros on the subject, where the flames were largely self-contained and sporadic, and 2) In about a week, I'll no longer be using Poser 5, having traded the P5 license in for a second P4/PPP license. OTOH, there are a few things to keep in mind here. First off, This second product looks like an EGIsys puppy, with Larry, Steve etc merely lending their names to it, or providing some sort of project management role. Also, we don't know the timeline of that second program's development. In contradiction, perhaps CL should be spending mroe of its time and resources not only on fixing what's broke in Poser 5 for windows, but in getting a Mac version of P5 put together. They have my pity in the Mac department, since they got caught between OS9 and OSX dev cycles, can't get any dev help from Apple for OS9, and don't have an OSX customer base big enough to make it worth getting up an OSX version. Kinda sucks either way you look at it. OTOH, this entity called Business is a cold, hard thing, and DAZ Studio isn't going to wait for Curious Labs to catch up - it'll release when it's ready, and then CL will have to persuade folks to buy from them from now on, instead of simply assuming that low price alone will put them ahead among the buying hobbyists. It'll be interesting, to say the least. I actually ahve faith that CL may be able to pull off some sort of miracle, but unless they concentrate their resources, they'll have a hard time of it. 3D web stuff isn't near mature enough to be viable, and the Internet isn;t near powerful enough to utilize it on a large scale. I just hope Steve knows what he's doing... /P

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12440&Form.ShowMessage=983210

Yup, it's all about survival. CL kicked an unfinished P5 out the door because they were severely strapped for cash - they HAD to hurry to market, against better judgement. Too much enthusiastic inclusion of too many bells and whistles made the product a much more difficult proposition to develop and get stable than they had originally reckoned with. And cash ran out along the way. So... let the customers beta test, after all, they're a friendly bunch and hobbyists and enthusiastic and all, so we'll work it out together. :o) But it didn't work out. And now they're struggling still, severe stability and functionality issues are still snapping at their heels, and DAZ Studio is coming. So CL is worried! I really, really hope that they work it out, I love Poser. But I won't buy P5 until people are happy more often than they complain, and we're not there yet. But this other Pro-V thing - wow, standing up against DW MX and GoLive, that's like opening a tiny burger joint next door to MacDonalds and charging 4 times as much, it doesn't work, simple. Dead in the water for sure. :] Fish

"I just quit because I got tired of arguing with a brick wall." - Jackson Yeah, I just got bored with it after a time, Jackson, except for dropping in to watch what's still ongoing. Started to eat into time I needed to spend on other things I enjoy doing.

"Kind of like the people who constantly post such rhetoric in the threads when someone is expressing a concern or complaint?" Yeah, as I said...annoying, isn't it? -jjsemp

Amusing actually, but why quibble over semantics? ;]

"It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make." Integrity is priceless. Thanks Jack.

Gee it's funny. Poser 5 has worked just fine for me from the beginning, as it has for so many others. DAZ's fortunes have relied totally on their support of Poser. Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser? Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff? I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months.

Gee its funny. Poser 5 has not worked for me from the beginning, as it has not for so many others. I also won't be purchasing DAZ studio until its been around for a while (sorry DAZ not your fault). Seems prudent after my experience with P5 thus far. Perhaps a demo version would be a good move on DAZ's part. If they have confidence in their product, this move would dissolve any fears from those of us that are justifiably gun shy at this point.

"Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser?" NO......I think DAZ sees an opportunity to fill a void in the market and grow their 3D character business the consumer market will decide what program gets "replaced" "Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff?" probably not ,all We know it uses Vicky3 so theres a LARGE portion of the poser base already as far as the posette/Dork loyalists etc. part of embracing the future is letting go of the past. "I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months." I imagine DAZ ,Like Newtek,MAXON,Discreet, AliasWavefront et all, is not looking for "believers" But paying customers who demand a modern day 3D character application that uses Modern non Modal OS interface standards, hardware accleration, OPenGL BlaH Blah...... you Know the rest.

For 5 mins guys can you stop going on. Where I am it's the early hours of the 1st of january. Happy New year one and all and I hope there are solutions to all these problems in 2003. Best wishes Catlin

I think I throw my five cents in... I am a MAC user and I rely heavily on Poser for the development of facial expression simulation in my scientific work. The advantage of Poser is the Python scripting interface where I can do everything I want. I tested all major products on the market for Mac and PC - in Poser we have the steepest learning curve, and you get results very fast. I also use Eyematic face station - for this reason we made morph targets on Don and Judy and run them in 3ds - boning them was one days work for a newbie- Why doesnt DAZ bring out bone systems for other programs ? This would open new markets to DAZ and help many people to secure their investments in DAZ products, morph targets and machines they have made. I just bought two PCs for running Poser 5 and I never had any problem with Poser itself, but the machines are a pain in the a.... Poser rendering is still very slow even on a 2.6 gig machine and all new parts like cloth simulation are really poorly documented - I do not see that somebody with a smaller machine even can use it. A simple cloth simulation of 270 frames on a figure took about a week to create and calculate the final movie without raytracing. It seems to be useless for any workflow. Look at the galleries - as many P5 users are out there, do ya see any cloth or wind simulation - even raytracing is very rare. But what I hate most is that many old bugs are still there in P5. If Poser will survive then the whole code has to be rewritten in a more modern fashion, I can not understand that the oldfashioned P4 renderer runs at the same speed on any machine - there must be something wrong deep down inside. There are render engines who can render more than 60.000 polys with textures in real time on a PC - I have seen them. As I was just curious I tried to find out who is egisys - this seems to be a university based company, mainly run be students or so. The company is on the market for many years - but without having a product, so I wonder who is financing the whole thing and where the money comes from. Poser itself is a good idea and a bad product - they just should get rid of this ridicoulos Metacreation s interface and I fear that they now will stick together again with the loosers - like in the case of Avatar lab and Adobes 3d thingie which seems to be dead. Happy New Year !!!!!!!!!!!

"Now are we supposed to put all our faith in DAZ to come out with a product to replace Poser?" Put your faith where you like. Having seen DAZ Studio, I can tell you two things for sure: 1) it won't be out for quite awhile, which means that CL still has a shot at getting their act together. Whether they will or not will depend on their coding skill and the patience of their customers. 2) It is being built not as a 'replacement for poser', but as a means to allow you to professionally use your Poser stuff. "Will it be able to use all our Poser stuff?" That's what they're shooting for, but it'll also be able to use other stuff as well. The alpha version I saw imported Lightwave objects and scenes. I'm certain that there will be a competent array of import/export capabilities included. "I won't believe in DAZ Studio until it's been around a few months." Again, DAZ isn't approaching it as if they were building a religion - they have much more practical goals in mind. -------- "It wasn't an easy choice and will certainly affect my livelihood down the road, but between the EULA issue and Poser 5's bug issues... it was a choice I had to make." Integrity is priceless. Thanks Jack. Err, Lapis? It isn't a question of "integrity", it is a question of business sense. When you are forced to make business decisions that affects whether or not you can afford to pay your bills and feed your family, you do what you have to. Anything else would be flat-out stupid. It is amazingly easy to preach about integrity when you're safely employed elsewhere... it's quite another story when it's your gonads laying there on the chopping block. /P

it's quite another story when it's your gonads laying there on the chopping block. Thats more than true